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Thread: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

  1. #46
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman
    The problem here is that people's judgment is never objective. They don't apply the same logic to every point in the manga, which begs a question of love/hate thing for something they're probably dissing. There are 90% of posts like this and it's ridiculous.
    You're complaining about people being objective? The thread creator asked a simple question concerning Naruto's training regimine and you immediately got defensive, attacking how Uchiha gain their powerups because you perceived him as attacking Naruto.

    Don't be a hypocrite.

    As for the thread, I agree, it never made much sense. But I didn't care. I appreciate Kishimoto trying to give Naruto reasons for developing quickly even though he's horrible at chakra control and... thinking. What DID bother me about it, is why clones can transfer memories, mental fatigue, and experience to the real person... but they can't transport Genjutsu effects? Nah.

  2. #47
    MH's Best Reviewer 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Jammin's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    The difference isn't any different from original Naruto's, though. They still think like Naruto, but not his exact thoughts at the moment. One Naruto can be all "RAMEN!!" while another Naruto can be all "DATE WITH SAKURA!" if both of them were at the same place at the same time. It'd still be what Naruto would think, but since there's clone, they can focus on one thing, but tehy'd likely act the same in different situation. Or at least, typical Naruto. Dunno how the length of separation affects their personality though.
    I suppose we can't know for certain how the time of separation effects them but it does with Madrox. Whose power is the same as Naruto in a lot of ways.

    Which is part of why I'm so interested in this question. Is this function of Naruto's power a fault for Kishimoto or is the fact that Madrox could not do this oversight by X-Men for 40 some years.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He's trying different things with the clones though. Each clone can put in different power or mold chakra differently or make their chakra different. If the task is difficult and takes a long time, havin about 1000 clones can cut this time in half as they'd each be looking for ways to get their objective. If one clone finally cuts the leaf, then after he dispels, the original Naruto will learn that method as well, while 999 other clones STILL can't cut their leaf or don't know how.

    The original Naruto can give the order to come up with different ways to cut the leaf, which the clones try. They would probably know to try all different ways. One Naruto can focus on putting forth more chakra, another can focus on molding chakra to the exact shape, another can combine both and see if that works.
    But can Naruto focus his clones actions in that way on such a large scale with such precision? That's I guess the bit I have a hard time imagining. After the fact he learns what every one of them did but when he creates a thousand clones can he have each know which different way to try to make sure half of them aren't accidentally doing the something similar.

    But as I think Lighty said quite well as the repetitions would logically get more and more different from the original as they were separated longer simply because there is more chance for deviation with each repetition. Think of it like a tree branching out further and further.

    Like, even if Naruto had say an innate tendency to try to put more chakra into a jutsu and 500/1000 clones tried to put more chakra into it the first time time as a result of that base tendency. Each time after that the various Naruto's would be more likely to try something different from one another because and as a result they pattern of experience each would build up would be different. So the pattern would be increasingly unique for each. Which would be a benefit in training.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Not that fast because there's no different way to spinning a pen, is there? Even if there is, there's no incorrect way for the spinner.
    That's the point, it's "skill mastery" as opposed to "skill development". Knowing how to do it a is easy. Learning to do it perfectly every time is extremely the hard, and that's the time consuming part. Do you think Kagebunshin training should work for this kind of thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I think it would be of great benefit because Naruto can learn hundreds of different ways to do something. Although one ultimately works, he can gain better experience of what to do and what not to do, and try things different for different jutsu. The knowledge he gains would give him benefit here.
    Yeah but how much exactly? The manga threw out the equation of....

    The Number of Clones X The Number of Time Training = Resulting Experience

    Quote Originally Posted by metalia View Post
    There's little chance to learn a new justu the first time you try it. But if you do a thousand "first tries", that chance increases a lot. That's why.
    I pose to you same question I just asked MJ3 how much experience should it gain him?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasy View Post
    Not everything is supposed to make sense. . .
    It's a manga for Christ sake. It's suppose to be cool and awesome.
    I mean you have guys shooting fire out of their mouths and shit.
    That's fair I suppose, it is all fiction after all. Though isn't it better if that kind of thing makes sense within the context of the universe of the story? I mean, shooting fire from your mouth and such makes perfect sense with the chakra magic that exists in Naruto's universe. The only things I criticize like this are things that aren't explained away by "chakra magic" but instead rely on principles outside of that.

    I remember getting in massive debate about Kirrin for similar reasons (the metoerogical physics that "supposedly" make Kirrin possible are...interesting; to say the least.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman View Post
    The problem here is that people's judgment is never objective. They don't apply the same logic to every point in the manga, which begs a question of love/hate thing for something they're probably dissing. There are 90% of posts like this and it's ridiculous.
    You could assume I'm prejudiced against Naruto but that doesn't really add to the discussion much. I'm actually pretty pleased with the responses I've gotten here. If the answer to something like this is obvious I don't see why posing the question is such a big deal?

    Brlll, Delbi, and Lighty in particularly I thought have done an excellent job presenting valid and well explained points.

    Delbi was the first to point out the value in "difference of approach" as opposed to "cumulative experience".
    Lighty gave a very good explanation of why the the probability would in fact deviate more over time thus reinforcing the functionality of Delbi's explanation
    Brill brought up the idea of Naruto dividing the labor on different parts of a given jutsu.

    There are still some unclear bits though if you'd like to take a stab at explaining them.
    1. Is the manga's presented amount of experience Naruto gains through this method even close to what he should expect?
      (Number of Clones X Time Trained = Time of experience gained)
    2. Does it actually work with "skill development" or just "skill discovery" (which is what the pen question is all about)

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzaku View Post
    The Japanese term "bunshin" is actually closer in meaning to "doppelganger" than "clone," just FYI. As in "looks the same," not "exact genetic replica." This is one of the areas where the official English translations are more accurate.

    If you read the Road to Ninja special, it's got scenes of Naruto playing cards with his own Kage Bunshin doppelgangers and they all behave differently because they are dealt different hands. They even get into an argument.

    The fact is that his clones are all attempting different methods to master the technique. Even if the permutations are only minor, the results will be different.
    In a card game that makes perfect sense either way. Each Naruto clone, or doppelganger, is an individual entity.

    After all, if you were to deal cards to 4 Naruto's from parallel universes they could play a very enjoyable card game. Because the cards they receive are all different. Even if they shared the exact same tendencys the different cards they were dealt would force different behavior. If they were all dealt the same hand of cards, then the question of "how different each's behavior would be" gets interesting. At least for the first couple hands of the card game.

    I also would like to pose the same question to you I posed to MJ3 and Metalia. How much of a bonus to experience would you expect from this style of training exactly? And would you expect it to be similar to what the manga suggested it would be?
    Last edited by Jammin; February 13, 2013 at 12:23 AM.
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  3. #48
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
    I suppose we can't know for certain how the time of separation effects them but it does with Madrox. Whose power is the same as Naruto in a lot of ways.

    Which is part of why I'm so interested in this question. Is this function of Naruto's power a fault for Kishimoto or is the fact that Madrox could not do this oversight by X-Men for 40 some years.
    Chances are it may not affect Naruto's personality as much, but that probably depends on what he has the bunshins do. Since Kakashi told Naruto to have his clone follow Kakashi's, I think Naruto retains some form of control over his bunshins, so they probably don't deviate from Naruto's original personality too much. If anything, they were each probably told or ordered to find a way to split leaves their own way.

    It probably makes sense if Naruto really does have control over his bunshins. Didn't he use three or four bunshins to trick the Rain genins durin the exam? They didn't act like the usual bunshins, arguing or anything. He probably made sure they didn't, I guess?

    Quote Quote:
    But can Naruto focus his clones actions in that way on such a large scale with such precision? That's I guess the bit I have a hard time imagining. After the fact he learns what every one of them did but when he creates a thousand clones can he have each know which different way to try to make sure half of them aren't accidentally doing the something similar.
    I think each of the clones know what the other does, except for the original? Some could also be doin the same thing as well - three or four tries using a lot of chakra, twenty or thirty-three tries shaping chakra the way Asuma explained, and etc. I don't think it's exactly with precision, which could be why it took longer despite the hax.

    Quote Quote:
    But as I think Lightly said quite well as the repetitions would logically get more and more different from the original as they were separated longer simply because there is more chance for deviation with each repetition.
    They could each also slowly try a different way, whether very little or very big. They could also share a mind, which ironically can't with the original withotu dispelling.


    Quote Quote:
    That's the point, it's a skill. Knowing how to do it a skill is easy. Learning to do it well is the hard, and time consuming, part. Do you think Kagebunshin training should work for this kind of thing?
    Why not? Kage bunshin works well because Naruto's using his body, not studying or doing the same thing. He's applying different ways to get the result he wants, and whichever's successful is the one he goes with.

    Quote Quote:
    Yeah but how much exactly? The manga threw out the equation of....

    The Number of Clones X The Number of Time Training = Resulting Experience
    NOt sure if that's the true equation, since if a lot of clones try the same thing, it takes away some of the experience.

  4. #49
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    As for the thread, I agree, it never made much sense. But I didn't care. I appreciate Kishimoto trying to give Naruto reasons for developing quickly even though he's horrible at chakra control and... thinking. What DID bother me about it, is why clones can transfer memories, mental fatigue, and experience to the real person... but they can't transport Genjutsu effects? Nah.
    Which is funny because, if you think about it, Naruto's chakra control is now God Tier, considering he can match his chakra to fit everyone's else

    Ahh, consistency

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It probably makes sense if Naruto really does have control over his bunshins. Didn't he use three or four bunshins to trick the Rain genins durin the exam? They didn't act like the usual bunshins, arguing or anything. He probably made sure they didn't, I guess?
    I think clones have a sort of "string" or connection attached to the original that keeps them "alive", otherwise it wouldn't explain why only Naruto can use even a single clone for a long period of time.
    Even if Kakashi's chakra isn't that huge, half of it its still the same amount Sasuke had at the end of part 1, as in Chunin level, which means he would be able to train using that method too.

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  6. #50
    MangaHelper 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member zimbardo's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    I agree that this training method doesn't make sense as all the clones would learn the same thing in the same way (if they were all the same person).
    The only real way I can see it working is if all the bunshin's are imperfect copies of Naruto. As in, they do not think and act exactly as he does or would. This would enable them to all approach the training in a different way, and would, kind of, help to explain the rapid speed increase in learning...
    Infinite RAGE!

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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    You're complaining about people being objective? The thread creator asked a simple question concerning Naruto's training regimine and you immediately got defensive, attacking how Uchiha gain their powerups because you perceived him as attacking Naruto.

    Don't be a hypocrite.
    I merely commented on a topic. No hypocrisy there. What Is aid is a valid truth. If this is defensive to you, you probably didn't read my posts being actually defensive. Your response is more defensive than mine since I picked up an Uchiha powerup to compare, which is totally normal.

  8. #52
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Fox666's Avatar
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    Re: Kagebunshin Training: Does the concept really make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Its basically how experience, and only experience ( and well Senjutsu chakra ) can travel back from the user.
    It would make sense if, say, the chakra used would return to the user, and it would explain how Naruto survived having his chakra split into 1/1000, but randomly so doesn't make sense imo.
    I mean how can experience travel from the copy to the user? I'm talking about the process of the transfer.
    That is for sure an interesting question. But I guess the answer is that is is magic. What is the mean of transfer of the Amaterasu? Or a simply Genjutsu?
    Quote Originally Posted by IChallengeYou! View Post
    TOBI IS OBITO

    did you say something about timelines?! naruto ate it NOM NOM NOM IT'S GONE.

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