Not a member? Register now!
Announcements
Manga returns! Catch up with the details. Enjoy downloading, translating, and scanlating manga HERE legally!
Like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter! Celebrate another year with MH and read our yearbook.
Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (9/8/14 - 9/14/14).
Forum News: Visit new sections for Nisekoi and Kingdom!
Translations: Gintama 510 (2) , Naruto 692 by aegon-rokudo , Bleach 595 by BadKarma
New Reply
Page 3 of 39 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 13 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 578

Thread: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

  1. #31
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Eorzea
    Country
    Germany
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,379
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    What "unfair" treatment?
    They were watched, true, but they also had more power than any other clan in Konoha.
    Its not like someone forced them to become arrogant.
    The unfair treatment would be that even though the village has one leader (aka the Hokage), this leader does not have absolute power as evident by Hiruzen and Tsunade. There are politics going on, with advisors, democracy and whatnot.

    Tobirama shifted the Uchiha into that police force because he didn't want any of them in such afore mentioned politic positions, that much was said by Obito.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-14...apter-399.html

    ^again that scan: "But even that was a means to keep them out of government affairs".

    The Uchiha where equal co-founders of Konoha, so how isn't this unfair treatment? Thats like if the both of us would build a hut together and once we're done I keep the keys and reserve myself the final say on everything this hut will be used for... and leaving you with the job of guarding it on top of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I did say that Tobirama was mistaken, I'm not trying to say he's right, I'm trying to justify why he thought appropriate to do what he did.
    And that much I've already acknowledged when I said that your arguments explain where Tobirama is coming from and that he didn't everything just for shits and giggles, but that in the end these explanations still don't justify those actions.
    Last edited by LnDRash; February 08, 2013 at 07:07 AM.
    Click here for what I consider the definition of "simply brilliant"

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    He was once a very charismatic, kind, special and inspiring person. LnDRash was a premium brand, now this brand is called LnDTRash!

  2. Like 5 Member(s) likes this post
  3. #32
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Country
    Italy
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,703
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    The unfair treatment would be that even though the village has one leader (aka the Hokage), this leader does not have absolute power as evident by Hiruzen and Tsunade. There are politics going on, with advisors, democracy and whatnot.

    Tobirama shifted the Uchiha into that police force because he didn't want any of them in such afore mentioned politic positions, that much was said by Obito.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-14...apter-399.html

    ^again that scan: "But even that was a means to keep them out of government affairs".

    The Uchiha where equal co-founders of Konoha, so how isn't this unfair treatment? Thats like if the both of us would build a hut together and once we're done I keep the keys and reserve myself the final say on everything this hut will be used for... and leaving you with the job of guarding it on top of that.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the whole "keep them out of the government" thing started after the Kyuubi attack?
    Itachi's flashback shows it as much, and that was because of Obito's doing ( and probably the fact Uchihas disappeared that night ).

    Uchihas were part of the village, they had people in the ANBU unit ( Shisui, Itachi ), people who had normal rank ( Sasuke and Itachi's mom was a Jounin and friends with the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki ) and pratically worked together with Tobirama ( Kagami, whoever he was ).

    Tobirama created the force, we understood from last chapter, for 2 reasons:
    -use the Uchiha's overwhelming strenght
    -watch over them in case another Madara began to rise

    Never it is said by anyone that Uchihas were discriminated before the Kyuubi attack

  4. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  5. #33
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Eorzea
    Country
    Germany
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,379
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v43/c399/13.html
    http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v43/c399/14.html

    Well, if you read the page I posted and the next one then according to Obito it was like this:
    1. Konoha gets founded by Uchiha and Senju.
    2. Madara rebels, Uchihas turn their back on him and he gets killed by Hashirama.
    3. Police Force gets astablished to get the Uchihas out of Government Affairs and to surveillance them.
    4. Uchiha are displeased but for numerous years they accept their fate as the Senjus dogs.
    5. Kyuubi Attacks, Uchihas get quarantined even more.
    6. Uchihas have enough and plan to rebel, leading to the massacre.
    Click here for what I consider the definition of "simply brilliant"

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    He was once a very charismatic, kind, special and inspiring person. LnDRash was a premium brand, now this brand is called LnDTRash!

  6. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
    Like 6 Member(s) likes this post
  7. #34
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Zaphkiel
    Country
    Netherlands
    Age
    24
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    11,023
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v43/c399/13.html
    http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v43/c399/14.html

    Well, if you read the page I posted and the next one then according to Obito it was like this:
    1. Konoha gets founded by Uchiha and Senju.
    2. Madara rebels, Uchihas turn their back on him and he gets killed by Hashirama.
    3. Police Force gets astablished to get the Uchihas out of Government Affairs and to surveillance them.
    4. Uchiha are displeased but for numerous years they accept their fate as the Senjus dogs.
    5. Kyuubi Attacks, Uchihas get quarantined even more.
    6. Uchihas have enough and plan to rebel, leading to the massacre.
    Why should we believe Obito is telling the truth and not same made-up story? He is outright lying when he says no Uchiha were behind the Kyuubi incident. He's just telling the story this way so that Sasuke remains at his side. This is the reason why Itachi never told Sasuke the complete story himself, believing Sasuke will re-establish the Uchiha pride one day and not bring down the village.
    To be fair, it was just Madara's paranoiac and power-obsessed perception of the story that the Uchiha were getting discriminated. That's the reason the Uchiha didn't follow him in the first place, him acting like nothing more than a sore loser against Hashirama's rule.
    Obito is just telling us how Madara views this all. Madara, through his pupil, Obito, is the direct reason the massacre happened, since he held a grudge for his own clansmen.

  8. #35
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fighting for the Living
    Country
    The Wall
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,859
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Most of the solutions\opinions here are rather creative, but I doubt any of us experienced war so we can't say for sure if what Tobirama did was wrong. Hashirama also knew that the Uchiha were a cursed clan and can see where his brother is coming from. While he didn't like his brothers way of doing thinks, he clearly didn't go against it because he knew it was for the better, and even knew how the Uchiha are. This can be seen from his regretful face here.
    You don't need to know war to know the value of humans and how they should be treated.

    Tobirama villianized the Uchiha for the acts of a few. Instead of treating them like the sick people they are that needed help, he treated them like criminals (there base of operations was in a former jail) and monsters. The fact is only a few turn out like Madara did, and of the few that did, many were manipulated into being like that.

    Hashirama didn't disagree about their "curse" he did however strongly disagree about Tobirama's methods and his blatant bigotry towards the Uchiha.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    There is also Itachi, he believed the same thing as Danzo and Tobirama, but people are not judging him because he's their main man. He took the same solution and found that killing his clan was the best option for sake of the village.
    Itachi had no other choice. It was kill his clan, or watch them and Konoha be destroyed. Tobirama had choices and chose a terrible one. That's the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    You can say that Tobirama's choice was what started all this, but it's not like he did it intentionally. He did it as a sign of good faith, he knew the Uchiha were a soft clan, but he didn't think they were a clan of Teletubbies who would be so emotionally affected and insulted just because they weren't in the top.
    This is just utter bullshit. Unless Tobirama is an idiot, which he isn't, then he knew full well what the consequences could be. The fact of the matter is, he didn't do anything to try and help them, hell he didn't even do anything to really help the village. He did this to limit their power and to keep an eye on them.

    And a soft clan? Any clan of people who kill others for a living can in no way be considered "soft".

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    It was after the Kyuubi's incident that they were completely doubted, however, they were doubted and feared only by the higher authorities of Konoha. While all the ordinary villagers were still proud of them as "Konoha's strongest clan". But it was indeed an Uchiha's fault that the Kyuubi's attack happened. It was their softness and Teletubbies-ness that constantly made them cause almost all major problems.
    You must be fucking kidding me. It was the acts of two men, Madara and Obito, that led to the Kyuubi's attack. You keep claiming they are soft, but the whole reason this happened was because Madara was a mad man and he manipulated Obito into being his pawn.

    The Uchiha as a whole have not been the cause of all major problems. The acts of two, now three men if you include Sasuke have been the cause. And guess what, the acts of two other men, Itachi and Shusui, have been the solution of many problems.

    This clan, just like any clan, has both great capacity for fucking things up, and great capacity for fixing things and making them right. Tobirama however only saw what they were capable of destroying, not what they were capable of building.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    They take extreme measures for the simplest of causes, that's why they were feared. It's different from racism. Tobirama and Danzo didn't hate the Uchiha because of who they are, they feared the Uchiha because of what they turn to be. It's like calling someone racist for isolating someone with a deadly contagious disease.
    They do not take extreme measures for the simplest of causes, where the hell are you getting that from?

    Fact is, the Uchiha are no different than any other people as they are emotional. The difference however, is that their emotions awaken eye powers.

    Tobirama feared the Uchiha for their power. Despite all his bitching, Madara was the only one he knew who turned out evil, the rest were following orders for all the "wrong" they did prior to the Konoha's birth.

    This hatred he speaks so much of, apparently was squashed when Konoha started. The Uchiha took steps to limit their emotions, and in the past even created jutsu like Izanami to limit one anothers powers. And in the end, they forsaked Madara and bowed down to Hashirama.

    So Tobirama simply chose to ignore all the steps they did to seperate themselves from the Madara's of their clan, and still treated them like shit. So much for Senju love

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Itachi knew that, and eventually took on Tobirama and Danzo's way of thinking. He knew that wanting to satisfy everyone was just an empty dream. He knew that the world was not all roses and rainbows and that the right measures have to be taken in order to protect the village. The world is as Jiraya said, harsh and unforgiving, the right decision has to be made. For example, Danzo's order for killing Sasuke is harsh and doesn't satisfy everyone, but it's the absolute right choice and the most reasonable one.
    Itachi only had to do what he did thanks to the decisions made by Tobirama and Danzo. They had choices, he did not.

    Itachi's choice to kill his clan and Danzo's choice to kill Sasuke had to be done. Itachi had no other choice, and Danzo was simply following the code of his village which had bent for Sasuke in the past.

    Tobirama however, had people willing to do better, willing to be better, and he chose to do what he did out of fear and hate. He had choices, and chose one of the worst outcomes possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I'm not supporting either sides here, but people are bashing Tobirama too much. He did what nearly evey other reasonable human would have done for the sake of his village.
    No, reasonable humans would't do what he did. Reasonable humans don't put people that are mentally ill in the situation that Tobirama did so you're flat our wrong and lying to yourself here.

    Also, Hashirama was a reasonable human and didn't do this, and he was the leader before Tobirama so that also disproves your point. The fact that he disapproved of his brothers methods is evidence of this.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  9. #36
    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member Revvo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Country
    Germany
    Age
    26
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    180
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    To me this whole thing about the uchiha not being able to cope with loss is just another stupid ***pull. The author seems to have a thing for runing good ideas (see the QB for example).
    The basic Idea was That the Senju were loving, open people, represented by theire ancestor the Sage's younger son, who tried to deal with the cruel life of ninjas with compassion and understanding, ultimatly aiming for world peace.
    The Uchiha were people who didn't belive in peace through "love" and thought humans needed to be controlled by a higher power (the same conclusion Nagato came to).
    This is an interesting conflict ( eventhough it has been used for storys quite alot, for example in the starwas movies).
    What's happening in the Manga right now is Kishi avoiding this hole conflict. The Manga is rushed towards an "happy ending". This is quite sad since the conflict was build up nicely and now it is unsatisfyingly "resolved" by turning all the bad guys into good guys (happend to garaa,itachi, kabuto and the QB, is happening to Obito, Madara, Sasuke, all of the uchiha... even orichimaru suddendly seems to be a nice pal).... The only person who really made up his own ideals and could be described as seriously evil in this manga, was Danzo... He had his reasons, but it was his own decision to follow a path of power ad control.
    This new perspectiv of the uchiha being unable to deal with theire strong bonds .... it only serves the purpose of taking away theire responsibility for theire actions, victimizing them... suddenly it's not individuals making personal decisions, NO! It's something in the brain, an ultra-compassion, turning into ultra-hatred. THe Naruto-universe has turned into a racist idea, where every charactertrade can be explaind through genetics, no action is born by free will, the clan of love, the clan of hatred (now the clan of super love), the uzumakis with theire long live, Madara reachig for his brothers eyes, against his will, cotrolled by the evil sharingan etc.... There are no hard decisions Naruto characters have to make, it might seem so sometimes, but it all boils down to fate and genetics. The story has lost all of it's edges/conflicts and has finaly mutated into the shallow shounen manga most people wanted to read
    ... it's a pitty.

  10. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  11. #37
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fighting for the Living
    Country
    The Wall
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,859
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Why should we believe Obito is telling the truth and not same made-up story? He is outright lying when he says no Uchiha were behind the Kyuubi incident. He's just telling the story this way so that Sasuke remains at his side. This is the reason why Itachi never told Sasuke the complete story himself, believing Sasuke will re-establish the Uchiha pride one day and not bring down the village.
    To be fair, it was just Madara's paranoiac and power-obsessed perception of the story that the Uchiha were getting discriminated. That's the reason the Uchiha didn't follow him in the first place, him acting like nothing more than a sore loser against Hashirama's rule.
    Obito is just telling us how Madara views this all. Madara, through his pupil, Obito, is the direct reason the massacre happened, since he held a grudge for his own clansmen.
    Tobirama just confirmed Madara's suspicions. Hashirama may have held no ill will towards teh Uchiha, but Tobirama did. And the Uchiha were in fact moved to the outskirts of the village to be isolated, if that wasn't true Sasuke would have said it wasn't as he did live in the village. So let's not sugarcoat here and avoid the facts.

    Did Obtio's actions contribute to the massacre? Of course they did. But the fact remains people like Tobirama and Danzo hated the Uchiha clan. Hell, half of Danzo's power was reliant on the need for Sharigans. You don't think he wouldn't have acquired those without the Kyuubi attack?

    The fact is, people like Tobirama and Danzo turned a situation that for the first time in years was looking good for the Uchiha in terms of them being good and living peacefully and turned it on it's head and made it worse. Then Madara and Obito simply destroyed any hope for peace with the Kyuubi attack.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  12. Like 2 Member(s) likes this post
  13. #38
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Eorzea
    Country
    Germany
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,379
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakuteiken View Post
    Why should we believe Obito is telling the truth and not same made-up story? He is outright lying when he says no Uchiha were behind the Kyuubi incident. He's just telling the story this way so that Sasuke remains at his side. This is the reason why Itachi never told Sasuke the complete story himself, believing Sasuke will re-establish the Uchiha pride one day and not bring down the village.
    To be fair, it was just Madara's paranoiac and power-obsessed perception of the story that the Uchiha were getting discriminated. That's the reason the Uchiha didn't follow him in the first place, him acting like nothing more than a sore loser against Hashirama's rule.
    Obito is just telling us how Madara views this all. Madara, through his pupil, Obito, is the direct reason the massacre happened, since he held a grudge for his own clansmen.
    He changed one fact about the nine tails incident, namely his own involvement. He also had good reason for that, because if he said "yeah... so basically I've attacked your village and your peers got blamed and killed for that lulz" Sasuke would have jumped his throat. But that doesn't necessarily mean he lied about everything. So far it all matches pretty well with all the other info we got.

    Besides, Obitos version of those events is the only version we have right now. So unless we get another version which refutes Obitos story we have to accept it as the author telling us what was going on through Obito.
    Click here for what I consider the definition of "simply brilliant"

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    He was once a very charismatic, kind, special and inspiring person. LnDRash was a premium brand, now this brand is called LnDTRash!

  14. Like 2 Member(s) likes this post
  15. #39
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Country
    Italy
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,703
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v43/c399/13.html
    http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v43/c399/14.html

    Well, if you read the page I posted and the next one then according to Obito it was like this:
    1. Konoha gets founded by Uchiha and Senju.
    2. Madara rebels, Uchihas turn their back on him and he gets killed by Hashirama.
    3. Police Force gets astablished to get the Uchihas out of Government Affairs and to surveillance them.
    4. Uchiha are displeased but for numerous years they accept their fate as the Senjus dogs.
    5. Kyuubi Attacks, Uchihas get quarantined even more.
    6. Uchihas have enough and plan to rebel, leading to the massacre.
    Let's look at what Tobirama said:

    He was expecting a coup since Madara's will was shared by quite a few.
    Judging from what Orochimaru said, Tobirama fanned those flames, meaning Madara's followers existed before the Uchiha's "discrimination".
    After which Tobirama explains what he did, as in give them their job while setting someone to better watch over them.
    He saw countless Uchihas go mad with power, but he tried to channel that power for the good of the village. I'm sure if Hyuugas had that power he would've done the exact, same thing.

    Obito's words were meant to sway Sasuke to his side, hating Konoha for what they did, making Uchiha appear like a puppy kicked by a bad guy that was jealous and fearful of that power.
    Or did you miss Sasuke resenting Konoha and being proud of his clan?
    I think that, were Uchihas in the right, Itachi wouldn't so readily agree to kill all of them.

    We also need to know what they meant for political power, I don't think other clans would agree for Uchihas not to be included or would find it suspicious, that means Uchihas had surely the same rights every other clan had, Senju included, with the addition of the Police force.

    I just find it hard to sympatize too much with them when Gaara was sent assassins after him by his own father since he was six

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Tobirama just confirmed Madara's suspicions. Hashirama may have held no ill will towards teh Uchiha, but Tobirama did. And the Uchiha were in fact moved to the outskirts of the village to be isolated, if that wasn't true Sasuke would have said it wasn't as he did live in the village. So let's not sugarcoat here and avoid the facts.
    Where does it says Uchihas were isolated?
    If so, why then Tobirama had an Uchiha in his team? Why Uchihas were admitted into ANBU? Why Uchihas were liked by the population and by the ninjas?
    Because they were moved in the outskirts of the village ( which wasn't to isolate them, but to watch them ) ?
    They were "isolated" only after the Kyuubi attack, and that was Obito's fault, not Tobirama's

  16. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
  17. #40
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Country
    Fire Nation
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,228
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    You don't need to know war to know the value of humans and how they should be treated.

    Tobirama villianized the Uchiha for the acts of a few. Instead of treating them like the sick people they are that needed help, he treated them like criminals (there base of operations was in a former jail) and monsters. The fact is only a few turn out like Madara did, and of the few that did, many were manipulated into being like that.

    Hashirama didn't disagree about their "curse" he did however strongly disagree about Tobirama's methods and his blatant bigotry towards the Uchiha.
    You don't need to know war for that. You need to experience war to understand what it brings, what should be done to stop it. Once you know that, you will understand that everything must be done in order to have your village\ country avoid war. It's easy to speak garbage when you know nothing, but it's not that easy for people who suffered it. That's why Sasuke and Itachi's mentality was different. One saw war and knows how horrible it is, th other one never saw it and does things for his own desire. Even the Raikage knew that, and prepared to kill anyone, including his brother as long as it means that his village will be good. It wasn't just Tobirama, it was common sense in the Narutoverse. If you can't understand that then re-watch the series.

    Only few turn out like Madara ? It was stated that all Uchiha are bound to turn like that as long as they experience negative emotions. And sense people DIE, they are bound to turn out like Madara. Hashirama knew exactly that his brother was right, and the best he could say was "be a bit more respectful".

    Quote Quote:
    Itachi had no other choice. It was kill his clan, or watch them and Konoha be destroyed. Tobirama had choices and chose a terrible one. That's the difference.
    Itachi did have choice. To join his clan and help them defeat Konoha. But unlike the soft clan of his, he looked up for the greater good. I will explain about that below.

    Quote Quote:
    This is just utter bullshit. Unless Tobirama is an idiot, which he isn't, then he knew full well what the consequences could be. The fact of the matter is, he didn't do anything to try and help them, hell he didn't even do anything to really help the village. He did this to limit their power and to keep an eye on them.

    And a soft clan? Any clan of people who kill others for a living can in no way be considered "soft".
    Do you have any idea how nonsensical what you're saying is ? How would Tobirama know they will rage and think of a coup ? And if he knew, is he going to just let it be and wait for them to endanger the leaf after his death and hope that one of them will exterminate the entire clan ? Do you realize how nonsensical that sounds ? He tried to use them for the good of both the village and themselves. He gave them a job they could excel at and by doing this help the village. But that didn't satisfy their softness. And another nonsensical think is, why would he wanna limit their power ? They're one village now. Limiting their power will do absolutely nothing to him or the village.

    And yes they are as soft as marshmallow. I will explain that even down below along with the "greater good" topic.

    Quote Quote:
    You must be fucking kidding me. It was the acts of two men, Madara and Obito, that led to the Kyuubi's attack. You keep claiming they are soft, but the whole reason this happened was because Madara was a mad man and he manipulated Obito into being his pawn.

    The Uchiha as a whole have not been the cause of all major problems. The acts of two, now three men if you include Sasuke have been the cause. And guess what, the acts of two other men, Itachi and Shusui, have been the solution of many problems.

    This clan, just like any clan, has both great capacity for fucking things up, and great capacity for fixing things and making them right. Tobirama however only saw what they were capable of destroying, not what they were capable of building.
    And those two men are the same Uchihas that Tobirama saw countless of times. So it's not two men anymore. The soft thing will be explained below.

    The two men caused all this problem. And if it wasn't for Itachi, the whole clan would have caused a disaster. So it's again, not just two or three men. Itachi had the same rainbow-ish view as you for a moment. And guess what ? His one and only failure.

    Because one or two Uchiha's has the potential to bring good, doesn't mean that all of his clan can. I'm sure that had he stayed alive, Tobirama would have embraced Itachi and Shisui. Just like how Danzo and Sarutobi embraced Itachi. I'm not saying that exterminating the clan was the best choice, but the Uchiha's left no choice. It was the other way around of what you think, it's not the two men were evil, it's that two men were good.

    Quote Quote:
    They do not take extreme measures for the simplest of causes, where the hell are you getting that from?

    Fact is, the Uchiha are no different than any other people as they are emotional. The difference however, is that their emotions awaken eye powers.

    Tobirama feared the Uchiha for their power. Despite all his bitching, Madara was the only one he knew who turned out evil, the rest were following orders for all the "wrong" they did prior to the Konoha's birth.

    This hatred he speaks so much of, apparently was squashed when Konoha started. The Uchiha took steps to limit their emotions, and in the past even created jutsu like Izanami to limit one anothers powers. And in the end, they forsaked Madara and bowed down to Hashirama.

    So Tobirama simply chose to ignore all the steps they did to seperate themselves from the Madara's of their clan, and still treated them like shit. So much for Senju love
    This is where I'l explain everything I delayed. Where am I getting the idea that they take extreme measures ? That they are soft ? They are like all other people because they have emotion ? Why they are not ooking for the greater good ?

    I will answer it all.

    Do they take extreme measures ?

    the do take the absolute extreme measures for the shittiest of causes. Because he was not at the top, because he lost to Hashirama, Madara became a mad man, and now trying to satisfy his own selfish desires. He does not think of the consequences for his selfish actions. Obito, because a girl he loved died, he does not care about this world anymore and is willing to kill innocent people and put everyone in a forever lasting illusion just for his selfish desires. And don't give me this whole "he was manipulated" garbage. He was given a solution, he had the choice to either accept it or decline. Many people had the same choice, but didn't fall for it because they aren't made of pancakes and marshmallows. Naruto had many of his loved ones die, but he didn't take this stupid solution. Neither did Nagato, Jiraya, Gaara, Yahiko and Itachi. Because they think about the greater good. It's like saying that this guy was manipulated to take drugs, because he found a solution in them. There is always better choices than drugs, if you take them, then it's you fault, not the one the offered them to you. Because even if it's not for him, it was bound to happen to you eventually.

    And the clan, because they weren't at the top, they planned a coup, without thinking of the consequences it will bring. They didn't think that many people will die and that other villages would attack Konoha in the state of chaos the war would put it in. They didn't think about how their selfish actions will lead to the destruction of the leaf that took a lot of effort to build. No, none of that, it's all for their own selfish desire for power.

    Sasuke, instead of making his brother proud and protect the village. He took everything his brother suffered and died for and shit on it. All to satisfy himself.

    They are no different from any other people ? And they aren't soft ? Let's see :

    Nagato had suffered about twice as much as what any Uchiha suffered. Did he become a mad man or an avenger ? No. I don't see him running after Danzo for revenge. Why not ? Because he doesn't go for his own selfish desires, his eyes are on something much greater. Even Naruto knew that, he knew that even though he was going about it differently, in his heart he truly wished for peace. An all because he wasn't mad of Teletubbies.

    Naruto suffered just as much. Did he became a mad man or an avenger ? No. He forgave the man who killed both his masters, friends and destroyed his village. Why ? Because like Nagato his eyes are on something greater. He think not about himself, but about the good for everyone (even though his methods are childish.)

    Itachi suffered insanely, and he was softest of the Uchiha. But because he was a bright and a wise man, he knew that everything must be done to protect the village. Even after he suffered that much (twice as Sasuke at least), he never hated his village, it Kages, or the villagers. Because he isn't a selfish man like all his clan.

    and there are many more examples.

    Tobirama like Itachi, Raikage and every reasonable Shinobi. Did what he had to do, not what he or others like him to do.

    Quote Quote:
    Itachi only had to do what he did thanks to the decisions made by Tobirama and Danzo. They had choices, he did not.

    Itachi's choice to kill his clan and Danzo's choice to kill Sasuke had to be done. Itachi had no other choice, and Danzo was simply following the code of his village which had bent for Sasuke in the past.

    Tobirama however, had people willing to do better, willing to be better, and he chose to do what he did out of fear and hate. He had choices, and chose one of the worst outcomes possible.
    Tobirama also didn't have choice either. And again Itachi did. But the clan was not willing to do better, they wanted to take the lead. As long as it's not their clan, they don't give a shit about what happens to everyone else. The Senjus were different, they thought about the village and it's people, not their clan.

    Quote Quote:
    No, reasonable humans would't do what he did. Reasonable humans don't put people that are mentally ill in the situation that Tobirama did so you're flat our wrong and lying to yourself here.

    Also, Hashirama was a reasonable human and didn't do this, and he was the leader before Tobirama so that also disproves your point. The fact that he disapproved of his brothers methods is evidence of this.
    I should change that into "reasonable shinobis". Reasonable humans do isolate someone with a deadly contagious disease. Not always, do they do that, but it's logical if they want to avoid a greater loss. Mentally ill people are completely different from the Uchihas. They were born like that, therapy will not stop something natural from occurring. It's there fate, one way or another, they will turn. Which is why he saw countless people turn like that.

    Hashirama didn't do anything at all to stop him. Even though he was the Hokage and could do it. But he didn't, and he had nothing to say against Tobirama's believe. And Hashirama wasn't a reasonable man, he was the same type as the one Itachi talked about, a man that lives in a fantasy world.



    I'm not siding with Tobirama, but not with the Uchiha either. Both parties took extreme measures. Only difference is, Tobira did it for the greater good, while th Uchiha did it for themselves.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; February 08, 2013 at 11:12 AM.

  18. #41
    Banned MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Country
    United States
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,208
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Another thing that annoys me about Tobirama's excuse for bias is that it's blamed on the history against the Uchiha that his family/clan experienced. Hiruzen experienced this through hearsay and knowledge he would gain by being close to the first and second. He knew everything about the rivalry and still: he and the Uchiha were allies. He respected them not because it was the right thing to do, but because they earned it by fighting alongside him in whatever situation.

    It was at this point that anti Senju and anti Uchiha sentiments on both sides would've been at it's lowest. And Hiruzen grew up during the era of the Senju, yet he didn't skew his opinion to consider the Uchiha as an evil, cursed clan. No, he considered them Konohagakure civilians just like every other clan. I guess what I'm getting at is it was his faith in the clan that kept any attempt at a coup at bay.

  19. Like 5 Member(s) likes this post
  20. #42
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Country
    United States
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    290
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    There are multiple options, all of which better than simply pointing their homicidal tendencies in the opposite direction.

    1: Fuuinjutsu. We've seen that chakra can be suppressed with sealing techniques. A seal on the Uchiha's body that suppresses the chakra that alters their brains whenever they begin going mad would keep them in control of their powers. This way, any time they need a power boost they simply have their "handler" remove the seal long enough for them to do so.
    You are saying that they should fuijinjutsu an Uchiha to place a chakra limiter. This is impossible because if you restrain that chakra, you cancell the Sharingan. You need to understand Izanagi and Izanami as Itachi said. They kill each other to get MS, and they kill each other to get eyes after using Izanagi. This is why Izanami was created, but this does not solve the problem. Fact here is that the Uchihas are not Uchihas without Sharingan, and you are suggesting to take their ID from them.

    First, I think your solution is worst than Tobirama and none of them will accept its implementation, especially coming from a Senju. Second, you completely ignore Tobirama's statement that he tried to channel the power, but they kill each others ( which is the same thing Itachi said). Third, most of you are all wrong and biased in your opinion. The reason is this:

    It is true that Tobirama placed them in the same complex, but the following remain true:

    1. They have their freedom to do anything they wanted
    2. They have control of the military police, and they could use it to be acknowledge by anyone in the village
    3. They can enter the academy and become shinobi like anyone else


    Thus, I don't see any isolation from power. The rule is that one has to be acknowledge before becoming Hokage. Moreover, you don't become Hokage because you are powerful, but because you have shown to be an asset to the Village. This is the reason Hashimara was followed by the Uchiha who founded Konoha. They knew how Madara ascended to power, and they knew how and where he would lead them if he becomes Hokage. The truth if that while the Senju can channel their power to bring peace, Uchiha can be powerful only on the battlefield were hatred is being fueled. Their leader have to be powerful and this mean a lot of war, death, etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    The seal would only be placed on those who are truly willing to seek help, which would be the best way to weed out the "bad" Uchiha from the "good" Uchiha. They don't get any weaker because the seal can be released to activate MS, and seal it again when their hatred goes out of control. And I don't think any of them would've been offended by the option because as Tobirama said "they sealed off their emotions". They did so to avoid losing control. That means they really do seek to suppress their hatred. They want to be normal.
    You misunderstood Tobirama's explanation, or you just ignore it. Without the special chakra, there is no Sharingan. And without Sharingan, there is no power. Are you saying that an Uchiha will watch a Senju tour him in battle, while letting him seal his power? I think you are not realistic here.

    Even, your solution is exactly what was going on. The fact that Itachi was praised by Konoha is that he could control his power. Then, rather than sealing the others, they put them under surveillance. This is what is done in reality. If someone is suspicious, you keep him watched, and if you have a clue, you arrest him. In the Uchiha case, even though they were found guilty, negotiation occurred.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    2: Respect. Not from the village, from the HEADS of the village. Tobirama made no attempt to hide the fact that he despises Uchiha when faced with an Uchiha. So I don't think for one second he treated them with respect when he was around them. Hell, look at how Hashirama acted. His douchebagery was nothing new. I think if he would've spoken with the head of the clan (whoever that was) and explained to him his fears he would've worked with him to avoid tragedy. Together they could've worked out something. Anything, other than simply pointing their hate in another direction.

    3: Honesty. Each clan should have a representitive on the Kage's board. No secrets. NONE. And I know what kinda reply this one is gonna get:

    "Um, the other clans were never direct rivals with Konoha, so they can ask for a representitive... but the Uchiha can't be trusted."

    Well, you'd be wrong. The Uchiha were never rivals with Konoha. They were rivals with the Senju. Tobirama's experiences with the Uchiha was based on Senju/Uchiha relations. Konohagakure was ruled over by the Senju, but it was not a Senju organization and thus, shouldn't be considered as such. The slate should've been whiped clean after Madara, but it wasn't.

    And let's be honest: why be afraid the Uchiha would attack the village after they lose loved ones... if they were Konoha ninja? The only enemies they would murder with their super scary badguy eyes is non-Konoha citizens. Unless ofcourse they were being persecuted. I also wanna point out that the only ones that called it a coup were Obito and Tobirama.

    The Uchiha called it a Revolution.
    I think the Uchiha were more than respected. They could investigate any person in Konoha, and they had access to every resources they needed for their Job. Uchiha is classified as a noble clan, and all their Shinobi are praised. Seriously, I have hard time seeing a problem with being given a place similar to the Huyaga.

    With no offense, your solution is unrealistic. If someone suspect me and place me under surveillance, since I am a good person, he will find nothing, then stop the surveillance. In Uchiha's case, there were evidence that some people were working with Madara. There were also evidence that they have issues with there power, and that they couldn't be mixed with others. Then they proved that Tobirama was right by causing a coup d'etat. Sasuke and Obito are evidence that you should not expose an Uchiha to a battlefield.

    ---------- Post added at 08:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    Another thing that annoys me about Tobirama's excuse for bias is that it's blamed on the history against the Uchiha that his family/clan experienced. Hiruzen experienced this through hearsay and knowledge he would gain by being close to the first and second. He knew everything about the rivalry and still: he and the Uchiha were allies. He respected them not because it was the right thing to do, but because they earned it by fighting alongside him in whatever situation.

    It was at this point that anti Senju and anti Uchiha sentiments on both sides would've been at it's lowest. And Hiruzen grew up during the era of the Senju, yet he didn't skew his opinion to consider the Uchiha as an evil, cursed clan. No, he considered them Konohagakure civilians just like every other clan. I guess what I'm getting at is it was his faith in the clan that kept any attempt at a coup at bay.
    You are still being irrealistic. Some Uchiha did fight alonside with Hiruzen, and this happened under Tobirama's reign. Actually, under Hiruzen reign, there is no intel on the Uchiha apart from Itachi, and the massacre. Hiruzen was complaisant and burdened Itachi with his own responsibility. If that is what you chose to judge Tobirama, then you are wrong. You can believe what you want, but dare to consider all the fact in the manga concerning the Uchiha. Until now, the only tragic Uchiha drama that happen under Tobirama was their confinement. There is no account of violence towards them or from them. This suggest that Tobirama was correct. Only after his death, and due to Hiruzen misunderstanding of the issues, the Uchiha went into making the coup d'etat.

  21. #43
    Banned MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Country
    United States
    Age
    29
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,208
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww
    You are saying that they should fuijinjutsu an Uchiha to place a chakra limiter. This is impossible because if you restrain that chakra, you cancell the Sharingan. You need to understand Izanagi and Izanami as Itachi said. They kill each other to get MS, and they kill each other to get eyes after using Izanagi. This is why Izanami was created, but this does not solve the problem. Fact here is that the Uchihas are not Uchihas without Sharingan, and you are suggesting to take their ID from them.
    This is shortsighted and flat out wrong. It'd be like saying Tobirama isn't a real Senju because he can't use Mokuton. Not every Uchiha could use the Sharingan, let alone aquire MS. What makes you an Uchiha is your blood. Your family. Your pride. None of this is dependant on the Sharingan. The Uchiha were willing to give up their most prized and posession: love and friendship, all for the sake of not losing control and hurting those around them.
    If they're willing to give up the most important thing to them in this world JUST to be good people, why should I believe they wouldn't give up the thing that's turning them bad in the first place. Not to mention, it's not the Sharingan that makes them evil: it's the loss of love that distorts their chakra when the power erupts full force. I'm saying subdue the chakra that changes them. Not the Sharingan itself.
    It would be the same as sealing away Kurama's mind while taking his chakra for yourself. You get all the positive aspects and none of the negative.

    Quote Quote:
    You misunderstood Tobirama's explanation, or you just ignore it. Without the special chakra, there is no Sharingan. And without Sharingan, there is no power. Are you saying that an Uchiha will watch a Senju tour him in battle, while letting him seal his power? I think you are not realistic here.

    Pay attention. The special chakra creates the Sharingan, yes. But the special chakra also continues to grow and grow with greater emotion. You prevent that greater chakra from growing, and the Sharingan will never reach that level of no return. Once again I point you to the Kurama explanation. His power can be used without him taking control. That's by keeping too much of his chakra from distorting your mind.

    As for whether the Uchiha would allow this to happen, I think some would, and some won't. This is why I said it will weed out those willing to change for the greater good, and those that aren't. Proof that some are willing to change is the fact that the ENTIRE clan chose Hashirama over Madara. And proof that the ENTIRE clan chose to seal away their emotions to avoid being taken control of by their power. They've already taken multiple steps to avoid tragedy at their own hand.

    The only way you could believe otherwise is if you ignore what was stated.

    Quote Quote:
    Even, your solution is exactly what was going on. The fact that Itachi was praised by Konoha is that he could control his power. Then, rather than sealing the others, they put them under surveillance. This is what is done in reality. If someone is suspicious, you keep him watched, and if you have a clue, you arrest him. In the Uchiha case, even though they were found guilty, negotiation occurred.
    This is inaccurate. Itachi was praised by Konoha because he placed nothing above his patriotism, and had Kage-level intellect at the age of 7. He lived for Konohagakure alone. Not because he could control his Uchiha powers. This was stated nowhere. There's also no instance where "they were found guilty". You keep lumping the entire clan with the Uchiha who were not in on the coup. Likewise, no negotiation occured. The instant Itachi came to Sarutobi with proof of the coup they IMMEDIATELY chose to annihilate them. Well, Sarutobi didn't. He wanted to buy time.
    Danzou didn't meet with Fugaku. Shisui tried to use Genjutsu to force them to change, but Danzou took his eye and forbade it. He wanted the coup to be attempted so that they'd have an excuse to kill them all. If any negotiations were made it was between Itachi, Shisui, and the rest of the Uchiha. They didn't need to hear from other Uchiha. They needed to hear from the Hokage. This never happened.

    Quote Quote:
    I think the Uchiha were more than respected. They could investigate any person in Konoha, and they had access to every resources they needed for their Job. Uchiha is classified as a noble clan, and all their Shinobi are praised. Seriously, I have hard time seeing a problem with being given a place similar to the Huyaga.
    If the Hyuuga were put on the outskirts of the clan to be kept away from politics, it'd be the same. If the place they were given was an old prison, it'd be the same. It's not the same. And the Uchiha were respected... by the civilians. Not by the leader of the village or his cohorts. And that's all that matters, because they're the ones who make the decisions.

    Infact, the Uchiha's respect gained from civilians could even be a stretch, as EVERYONE hates the police unless they need them at any given moment. Those with power are hated. Those with power are also corrupted.

    Quote Quote:
    With no offense, your solution is unrealistic. If someone suspect me and place me under surveillance, since I am a good person, he will find nothing, then stop the surveillance. In Uchiha's case, there were evidence that some people were working with Madara. There were also evidence that they have issues with there power, and that they couldn't be mixed with others. Then they proved that Tobirama was right by causing a coup d'etat. Sasuke and Obito are evidence that you should not expose an Uchiha to a battlefield.
    I don't think you understand the difference between suspecting someone and letting it go once you have proof they're innocent... and suspecting someone because of what their ancestor did and never letting it go. We're talking about generations of persecution. Years.
    Secondly, they proved Tobirama right only thanks to him causing events that lead to a coup. If he believed a coup was possible he should've used my better choices rather than leaving them REASON to plan a coup.

    Quote Quote:
    You are still being irrealistic. Some Uchiha did fight alonside with Hiruzen, and this happened under Tobirama's reign. Actually, under Hiruzen reign, there is no intel on the Uchiha apart from Itachi, and the massacre. Hiruzen was complaisant and burdened Itachi with his own responsibility. If that is what you chose to judge Tobirama, then you are wrong. You can believe what you want, but dare to consider all the fact in the manga concerning the Uchiha. Until now, the only tragic Uchiha drama that happen under Tobirama was their confinement. There is no account of violence towards them or from them. This suggest that Tobirama was correct. Only after his death, and due to Hiruzen misunderstanding of the issues, the Uchiha went into making the coup d'etat.
    I don't believe you read a single thing I wrote, because my choices all result in lack of bloodshed, respect of both sides, honesty, and compromise. Tobirama's choices all were based on bias and fear.
    Both are realistic, but only one choice was guaranteed to result in a coup: Tobirama's. You don't have to agree with my choices, but you do have to accept that I'm right. Instead of letting the Uchiha's cursed chakra push them toward a coup, he should've given them the tools to focus and control that unruly chakra. Instead he let them keep it becuase "guard dogs are more effective when they're angry".

    I don't think he's a bad Hokage. He was a genius and he had that "do what needs to be done no matter what" mentality that is needed in his position. He had the resolve to make tough decisions. I respect this wholeheartedly.

    He didn't however have the sense to think objectively, OR the foresight to stop and consider other opportunities. And it started something that his predecessors would have to deal with. He dropped the ball.

  22. Like 1 Member(s) likes this post
  23. #44
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Fighting for the Living
    Country
    The Wall
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    7,859
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    You don't need to know war for that. You need to experience war to understand what it brings, what should be done to stop it. Once you know that, you will understand that everything must be done in order to have your village\ country avoid war. It's easy to speak garbage when you know nothing, but it's not that easy for people who suffered it. That's why Sasuke and Itachi's mentality was different. One saw war and knows how horrible it is, th other one never saw it and does things for his own desire. Even the Raikage knew that, and prepared to kill anyone, including his brother as long as it means that his village will be good. It wasn't just Tobirama, it was common sense in the Narutoverse. If you can't understand that then re-watch the series.
    Hashirama understood war better than his brother considering he was the one leading his clan and he was the one who was elected Hokage first. Did he take any measures that Tobirama did? No, and you want to know why? Because the war was over. A peace treaty was signed and Konoha was built.

    These Uchiha's that founded Konoha wanted peace. They even ousted their leader they wanted it so bad. Not to mention, they knew they had a problem, and took steps to solve it by sealing off their emotions. Why would they go through all this trouble if they just wanted to fight the Senju again? That makes zero sense. They were changing, and Tobirama ignored that because he carried too much hate for them.

    As for the Raikage, his method was absolutely flawed. He wanted to kill two perfect jinchuriki just to delay the inevitable instead of trusting in their power to win the war they were already fighting. Like Danzo, all he was doing was destroying assests instead of trying to reason and find an alternative solution.

    The problem with your thinking and Tobirama's is you fail to realize you have options, options other than murdering people and isolating them by shifting them away from the things they deserve and need.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Only few turn out like Madara ? It was stated that all Uchiha are bound to turn like that as long as they experience negative emotions. And sense people DIE, they are bound to turn out like Madara. Hashirama knew exactly that his brother was right, and the best he could say was "be a bit more respectful".
    False. All Uchiha, like any ninja who loses someone, fall to their emotions. The only difference is Uchiha's awaken the Sharigan and others don't. Hashirama agreed that Uchiha's emotions awaken the Sharigan. Nothing Tobirama said makes the Uchiha clan any different than any other shinobi. They are no more pre-determined to be filled with hate after loss than anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Itachi did have choice. To join his clan and help them defeat Konoha. But unlike the soft clan of his, he looked up for the greater good. I will explain about that below.
    This is absolutely retarded. He didn't join up with his clan because they would have all been killed anyway. Either way you spin it, the Uchiha clan was going to lose. However, in one scenario, Konoha wouldn't lose as well. This has nothing to do with "softness" but rationality.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Do you have any idea how nonsensical what you're saying is ? How would Tobirama know they will rage and think of a coup ? And if he knew, is he going to just let it be and wait for them to endanger the leaf after his death and hope that one of them will exterminate the entire clan ? Do you realize how nonsensical that sounds ? He tried to use them for the good of both the village and themselves. He gave them a job they could excel at and by doing this help the village. But that didn't satisfy their softness. And another nonsensical think is, why would he wanna limit their power ? They're one village now. Limiting their power will do absolutely nothing to him or the village.
    Any rational and intelligent person can understand that when you isolate and watch people they will get suspicious and develop a "me against the world" mentality, which is exactly what happened. Orochimaru even points out how Tobirama fed the problem he was trying to quell.

    The fact is, he let his hatred blind him. This much is obvious. He claims the Uchiha have a problem with hatred, and yet, he put them in a position where they will be hated naturally as no one likes the police. Funny how that worked out.

    And why would he want to limit their power? So his own decisions couldn't be questioned, and so the Senju clan could control the village with their ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    And those two men are the same Uchihas that Tobirama saw countless of times. So it's not two men anymore. The soft thing will be explained below.

    The two men caused all this problem. And if it wasn't for Itachi, the whole clan would have caused a disaster. So it's again, not just two or three men. Itachi had the same rainbow-ish view as you for a moment. And guess what ? His one and only failure.

    Because one or two Uchiha's has the potential to bring good, doesn't mean that all of his clan can. I'm sure that had he stayed alive, Tobirama would have embraced Itachi and Shisui. Just like how Danzo and Sarutobi embraced Itachi. I'm not saying that exterminating the clan was the best choice, but the Uchiha's left no choice. It was the other way around of what you think, it's not the two men were evil, it's that two men were good.
    And if The Uchiha were never isolated, were never moved away from the center of village, what reason would they have had to rebel? Answer me that. They quelled their hatred and ousted the leader who corrupted them, and took steps to control there emotions.

    It was only after years of all the bullshit they had to put up with did they plan on rebelling. If they were truly assholes and "soft" like you claim, they would have said someone other than Tobirama and Hiruzen should have been Hokage, and they would have rebelled much sooner than they did. But it took 60+ years of ostracizing, spying, and the finally the Kyuubi attack for them to make a move.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    This is where I'l explain everything I delayed. Where am I getting the idea that they take extreme measures ? That they are soft ? They are like all other people because they have emotion ? Why they are not ooking for the greater good ?

    I will answer it all.

    Do they take extreme measures ?

    the do take the absolute extreme measures for the shittiest of causes. Because he was not at the top, because he lost to Hashirama, Madara became a mad man, and now trying to satisfy his own selfish desires. He does not think of the consequences for his selfish actions. Obito, because a girl he loved died, he does not care about this world anymore and is willing to kill innocent people and put everyone in a forever lasting illusion just for his selfish desires. And don't give me this whole "he was manipulated" garbage. He was given a solution, he had the choice to either accept it or decline. Many people had the same choice, but didn't fall for it because they aren't made of pancakes and marshmallows. Naruto had many of his loved ones die, but he didn't take this stupid solution. Neither did Nagato, Jiraya, Gaara, Yahiko and Itachi. Because they think about the greater good. It's like saying that this guy was manipulated to take drugs, because he found a solution in them. There is always better choices than drugs, if you take them, then it's you fault, not the one the offered them to you. Because even if it's not for him, it was bound to happen to you eventually.
    This is getting comical.

    Madara was a warrior who wanted to prove his worth and wanted what was rightfully his. He is the exception.

    Obito had suffered both physical and mental trauma, and was then heavily manipulated by Madara after being isolated in a cave. Psychological and environmental factors played into why he did what he did. And he was given no such choice, Madara wouldn't allow him to leave when he wanted to despite the fact he was more than capable of letting him go.

    And let's go down your list of people who aren't soft, because this is absurd.

    Naruto: How many times did he give into the Kyuubi's hate and allow him to take over? There is no softer person in the manga than him by your standards. He had to be saved my Tenzo and Kakashi on multiple occasions and nearly destroyed his village when fighting Pain if not for his father. So don't even go there.

    Nagato: Where do I start. Hanzo was responsible for his pain. So what did he do when he took over the village. Killed every man woman and child related to him. Innocent people, anyone who knew he was killed. He then wanted to give the world a super weapon so they could kill each other in mass quantities to end wars. Are you serious? He then developed a God complex and lost all faith in humanity, and yet did a 180 because Naruto said a few words to him. Is that not taking extreme measures and being soft? Don't be a hypocrite.

    Gaara: Was a homicidal maniac for years until he, again, was turned to the "good" side by Naruto. What is not soft about his changing his entire being for a few words?

    Jiraiya: Instead of taking care of his God Son he traveled the world looking to take revenge on his teammate while also hitting brothels. Why would he keep chasing Orochimaru when he had more important things to worry about?

    The fact is, none of these characters are actually soft, they are human, as are the Uchiha. You criticize the Uchiha for taking extreme measures, and yet Danzo, Hanzo, Nagato, Orochimaru, Gaara's father, The Raikage, etc etc all have taken extreme measures at one time or another. And they either had to, or felt they had to based on the situation.

    You obviously can't fathom that a situation can force someone to make an extreme decision. The Uchiha Clan as a whole, are not extreme people despite what you may think.


    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    And the clan, because they weren't at the top, they planned a coup, without thinking of the consequences it will bring. They didn't think that many people will die and that other villages would attack Konoha in the state of chaos the war would put it in. They didn't think about how their selfish actions will lead to the destruction of the leaf that took a lot of effort to build. No, none of that, it's all for their own selfish desire for power.

    Sasuke, instead of making his brother proud and protect the village. He took everything his brother suffered and died for and shit on it. All to satisfy himself.

    They wanted what is rightfully theirs. They called what they were doing a revolution. They were an oppressed and ostracized people who wanted back what they helped build in the first place. Was a Coup the correct way to go about it? No. So while their means were wrong, they deserved what they wanted to fight for.

    And

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Nagato had suffered about twice as much as what any Uchiha suffered. Did he become a mad man or an avenger ? No. I don't see him running after Danzo for revenge. Why not ? Because he doesn't go for his own selfish desires, his eyes are on something much greater. Even Naruto knew that, he knew that even though he was going about it differently, in his heart he truly wished for peace. An all because he wasn't mad of Teletubbies.
    You obviously don't read this manga very well. Nagato slaughtered Hanzo and everyone who even knew him. Innocent men women and children. He then developed a God Complex. And don't go saying he suffered more than Sasuke or Itachi, he lost his parents and best friend. Itachi had to kill his entire clan, and Sasuke had to watch him, and later was tortured by his brother on multiple occasions.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Naruto suffered just as much. Did he became a mad man or an avenger ? No. He forgave the man who killed both his masters, friends and destroyed his village. Why ? Because like Nagato his eyes are on something greater. He think not about himself, but about the good for everyone (even though his methods are childish.)
    Naruto had to have multiple people help him so he didn't succumb to his fears and own hatred so again, don't by hypocritical.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Itachi suffered insanely, and he was softest of the Uchiha. But because he was a bright and a wise man, he knew that everything must be done to protect the village. Even after he suffered that much (twice as Sasuke at least), he never hated his village, it Kages, or the villagers. Because he isn't a selfish man like all his clan.
    Itachi had balls the size of basket balls. You are not a soft person if you can murder your parents in cold blood. Itachi was simply a pacifist, but he was by no means soft.

    And Itachi didn't hate his village but he didn't love it either, he simply didn't want to see people suffer. Not to mention, he too was manipulated by Danzo.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    Tobirama like Itachi, Raikage and every reasonable Shinobi. Did what he had to do, not what he or others like him to do.

    Tobirama also didn't have choice either. And again Itachi did. But the clan was not willing to do better, they wanted to take the lead. As long as it's not their clan, they don't give a shit about what happens to everyone else. The Senjus were different, they thought about the village and it's people, not their clan.
    Reasonable? You are reasonable if you consider both sides of an argument. Itachi is the only reasonable person among the three you mentioned. The Raikage had to be beaten into submission in order for him to not kill Naruto and his own brother. And Tobirama is nothing but a stubborn bigot who is stuck in his ways.

    And your second paragraph is a joke. They ousted their own clan leader for peace at one point. You are straight up ignoring facts here. And the Senju cared about the village so long as it didn't include the Uchiha. Or rather that is how Tobirama thought. I could lump all the other Senju aside from Hashirama into that but I don't stereotype and generalize like you seem to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I should change that into "reasonable shinobis". Reasonable humans do isolate someone with a deadly contagious disease. Not always, do they do that, but it's logical if they want to avoid a greater loss. Mentally ill people are completely different from the Uchihas. They were born like that, therapy will not stop something natural from occurring. It's there fate, one way or another, they will turn. Which is why he saw countless people turn like that.

    Hashirama didn't do anything at all to stop him. Even though he was the Hokage and could do it. But he didn't, and he had nothing to say against Tobirama's believe. And Hashirama wasn't a reasonable man, he was the same type as the one Itachi talked about, a man that lives in a fantasy world.
    This is not a deadly contagious disease. In fact, it isn't even a disease! It's a mutation in the eyes that occurs when they have a large strain of emotion. And I'm sorry but you are an idiot if you think therapy doesn't help mentally ill people.

    Hashirama was dead when Tobirama was Hokage so Idk what you are going on here. And Hashirama wasn't living in a fantasy world, HE CREATED PEACE. That was very real.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfNight View Post
    I'm not siding with Tobirama, but not with the Uchiha either. Both parties took extreme measures. Only difference is, Tobira did it for the greater good, while th Uchiha did it for themselves.
    The greater good. Tobirama is the soul reason Edo Tensei is around. This jutsu led to the death of his own student and THOUSANDS of other people. Were was the greater good there? O! And it just so happens Madara, the man he feared so much, was revived with said jutsu.

    The greater good is supposed to encompass everyone, and people without foresight shouldn't speak of the "greater good". Because thus far, all of Tobirama's decision have been shit and have led to nothing but extreme violence, more hatred, and totally chaos.

    He has done nothing for the "greater good" as far as I am concerned. All he did was weaken Konoha and give it more enemies.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  24. Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked this post
    Like 3 Member(s) likes this post
  25. #45
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member marshall313's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Country
    Marine Headquarters
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    2,434
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    The unfair treatment would be that even though the village has one leader (aka the Hokage), this leader does not have absolute power as evident by Hiruzen and Tsunade. There are politics going on, with advisors, democracy and whatnot.

    Tobirama shifted the Uchiha into that police force because he didn't want any of them in such afore mentioned politic positions, that much was said by Obito.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-14...apter-399.html

    ^again that scan: "But even that was a means to keep them out of government affairs".

    The Uchiha where equal co-founders of Konoha, so how isn't this unfair treatment? Thats like if the both of us would build a hut together and once we're done I keep the keys and reserve myself the final say on everything this hut will be used for... and leaving you with the job of guarding it on top of that.



    And that much I've already acknowledged when I said that your arguments explain where Tobirama is coming from and that he didn't everything just for shits and giggles, but that in the end these explanations still don't justify those actions.
    To keep them out to government affairs? But does the police force can be considered as another branch of konoha's government?

    And I think obito lied about that one.

    Because at that time, there's no uchiha capable enough to hold a position to the konoha's government. The uchiha doesn't have a better candidate to become a hokage at tovirama's time.

    Or maybe what you want is, if the hokage is a senju, the village should appoint an uchiha as a vice hokage because they're a co-founders like the senju? You forgetting something that the konoha is a democracy village. Even if the hokage is being appointed by the fuedal lords, but still, the hokage should have the full votes/supportof the entire jonins of the village.

New Reply
Page 3 of 39 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 13 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts