Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

[KingOfNight]

Hashirama understood war better than his brother considering he was the one leading his clan and he was the one who was elected Hokage first. Did he take any measures that Tobirama did? No, and you want to know why? Because the war was over. A peace treaty was signed and Konoha was built.

These Uchiha's that founded Konoha wanted peace. They even ousted their leader they wanted it so bad. Not to mention, they knew they had a problem, and took steps to solve it by sealing off their emotions. Why would they go through all this trouble if they just wanted to fight the Senju again? That makes zero sense. They were changing, and Tobirama ignored that because he carried too much hate for them.

As for the Raikage, his method was absolutely flawed. He wanted to kill two perfect jinchuriki just to delay the inevitable instead of trusting in their power to win the war they were already fighting. Like Danzo, all he was doing was destroying assests instead of trying to reason and find an alternative solution.

The problem with your thinking and Tobirama's is you fail to realize you have options, options other than murdering people and isolating them by shifting them away from the things they deserve and need.

He was leading the clan, how does that mean he understood war better ? Both knew just how war was. It's just the one did what a normal Shinobi in the manga would do, while the other lived in a Teletubbies world.

Who said they wanted to fight the Senju ? Their beef with the Senju was over. They wanted to take control. Just because Tobirama set some people to mark them, a new Madara appeared in few of them. Tobirama didn't do it for personal gain, he did it for the village. Even the third Hokage, despite him trying to find a logical solution, Danzo stated that as the Hokage, he will take drastic measures to protect the village. That's th logical thinking of a Shinobi. So it's not just Tobirama, it's every Shinobi's way of thinking. Your logic is that of a kid, who thinks everything will be solved with love and friendship. That's not how the characters in Naruto manga think, with the exception of very few.

About the Raikage, I can't even believe you said that. That's the biggest proof of your rainbow-ish thinking. He has to trust in their power ? Really ? When they couldn't even manage to get past him, he has to trust in their power ? He is the supreme leader of the ASF. The fate of the whole world not only the village is on his shoulder. And you want him to just leave it to luck and say "go children ! I have absolute faith in you". Be realistic will you, he is burdened by the lives of everyone, he can't just act like it's not his responsibility.

Look at Tsunade, she trusted Naruto in bringing Sasuke instead of absolutely killing him, and see where it led. He's now one of the worst criminals, killed tons of innocent people, tries to destroy the leaf, and collaborated with all the bad guys. That's where your childish thinking leads. When Danzo took the seat, the first thing he did is order to kill Sasuke. It's the absolute most logical thing to do.

Okay, let's say he did as you want him and allowed them to pass, and then they failed to stop Madara. Then what ? Of course it's a shounen, so it's not gonna happen, but what if it did ? The world will be destroyed and the Raikage will die in regret, knowing that he could've delayed that a few years and perhaps find a way to stop it. Be realistic man.

He didn't kill them. He tried to direct their power to benefit the village. But they didn't like it. The fact that he fully knew they were going to repel eventually, shows that he was right about them. The problem with you thinking, is that it's unrealistic.

False. All Uchiha, like any ninja who loses someone, fall to their emotions. The only difference is Uchiha's awaken the Sharigan and others don't. Hashirama agreed that Uchiha's emotions awaken the Sharigan. Nothing Tobirama said makes the Uchiha clan any different than any other shinobi. They are no more pre-determined to be filled with hate after loss than anyone else.

All the Shinobi in the world lost someone, did they go to destroy the world ? No. Tobirama specifically stated that the Uchiha are consumed by evil\hate once the lose someone. It's a natural phenomena for the Uchiha clan. Like all the Ninja I stated below, they weren't consumed by hate.

This is absolutely retarded. He didn't join up with his clan because they would have all been killed anyway. Either way you spin it, the Uchiha clan was going to lose. However, in one scenario, Konoha wouldn't lose as well. This has nothing to do with "softness" but rationality.

Watch the way you speak, just because you're ignorant doesn't make us retarded. He could've joined with them and possibly even help them bring victory. It's not like he didn't love his clan, or that he wasn't bothered by the treatment they received. But he thought about the village above everything else. It's not even wisdom, it's a common sense in the Narutoverse.

Any rational and intelligent person can understand that when you isolate and watch people they will get suspicious and develop a "me against the world" mentality, which is exactly what happened. Orochimaru even points out how Tobirama fed the problem he was trying to quell.

The fact is, he let his hatred blind him. This much is obvious. He claims the Uchiha have a problem with hatred, and yet, he put them in a position where they will be hated naturally as no one likes the police. Funny how that worked out.

And why would he want to limit their power? So his own decisions couldn't be questioned, and so the Senju clan could control the village with their ideas.

Orochimaru himself pointed that he didn't knew they will be affected like that. Tobirama has no reason to endanger the village.

His hatred didn't blind him, for the love of god, it's a common sense in this manga. He did what he did to protect the village.

Can you bring me a proof that he did it for the Senju clan ? I don't want your opinion, I want a proof that he did it for them. Because I have proof that he did it for the village.

And if The Uchiha were never isolated, were never moved away from the center of village, what reason would they have had to rebel? Answer me that. They quelled their hatred and ousted the leader who corrupted them, and took steps to control there emotions.

It was only after years of all the bullshit they had to put up with did they plan on rebelling. If they were truly assholes and "soft" like you claim, they would have said someone other than Tobirama and Hiruzen should have been Hokage, and they would have rebelled much sooner than they did. But it took 60+ years of ostracizing, spying, and the finally the Kyuubi attack for them to make a move.

They will find a reason like Obito and Madara did. How do you plan to stop their loved one from dying ? How do you plan to stop their natural things from occurring ? How do you plan to stop them from having negative emotions ? And if you treat them nicely and let's assume you provide them a paradise where their loved one won't die, how will you stop their internal fighting ? Itachi knew that Sasuke was bound to hate him as he grows. The chain of events simply changed that slightly, and made him love Itachi again. Tobirama said he saw it countless of times, COUNTLESS. Is it so hard to comprehend that ? Some of them shared Madara's point of view, and that's the Hokage should be an Uchiha. It was bound to happen eventually.

They are a soft clan indeed. How long they wait doesn't change that their cause is bullshit. It's not a Senju and Uchiha thing here, even Danzo and the elders who weren't of either clan knew that they are a cursed clan.

This is getting comical.

Madara was a warrior who wanted to prove his worth and wanted what was rightfully his. He is the exception.

Obito had suffered both physical and mental trauma, and was then heavily manipulated by Madara after being isolated in a cave. Psychological and environmental factors played into why he did what he did. And he was given no such choice, Madara wouldn't allow him to leave when he wanted to despite the fact he was more than capable of letting him go.

Indeed.

Madara was not a warrior who wanted to prove his might and take what's rightfully his. Did you miss the whole flashback with Obito ? Let me summarize it for you : "Oh, in this world there is always winners and losers. But I want a world of winners only. A world full of love, pancakes and Teletubbies" <--that's his brilliant cause. If it's not softness then what is that ? Look, no matter what happened to you, no matter how miserable your life is, even if it's more tragic than Nagato, Itachi, Sasuke, Naruto, Gaara and Madara's lifes combined, it still won't justify trying to destroy the world and create a new one for your own. Not even all that misery can justify that let alone a stupid reason such as Madara or Obito's. If that's not Teletubbies-ness, then what is it ?

And Obito ? Didn't he already left and come back on his own ? Even now he isn't doing it for Madara but for his own goal. He was never manipulated. That's why Nagato, Yahiko and Naruto, said "fuck off" when given the same option. Did you ran out of ideas and made shit up ? Manipulated ? You haven't even answered to the drugs example because you know it's true.

And let's go down your list of people who aren't soft, because this is absurd.

Naruto: How many times did he give into the Kyuubi's hate and allow him to take over? There is no softer person in the manga than him by your standards. He had to be saved my Tenzo and Kakashi on multiple occasions and nearly destroyed his village when fighting Pain if not for his father. So don't even go there.

I'm surprised you call our way of thinking retarded, when I look at your's. How does the Kyuubi taking control of Naruto has to do with Naruto himself ? He as a human, his mentality never change. All he wanted was to prove himself not kill everyone everywhere.

Nagato: Where do I start. Hanzo was responsible for his pain. So what did he do when he took over the village. Killed every man woman and child related to him. Innocent people, anyone who knew he was killed. He then wanted to give the world a super weapon so they could kill each other in mass quantities to end wars. Are you serious? He then developed a God complex and lost all faith in humanity, and yet did a 180 because Naruto said a few words to him. Is that not taking extreme measures and being soft? Don't be a hypocrite.

Where do you start ? Go check the manga again and then start. Hanzo and Danzo both were. He killed Hanzo to usurp his throne and take the lead of Amegakure, not for personal cause. He wanted to create this weapon because he was logical, he knew that it was impossible to achieve true peace. Did you miss what Naruto said ? He went about it differently but in his heart he wished for peace. He didn't wan to end humanity or take revenge. He looked unto the future and how to make it better.

Gaara: Was a homicidal maniac for years until he, again, was turned to the "good" side by Naruto. What is not soft about his changing his entire being for a few words?

You don't seem to understand the concept of "soft" I'm using. Changing his way was a sign that he was good at heart, that he wasn't an idiot doing everything for personal gain. That's not what the Uchiha are, they are doing this shit just for themselves.

Jiraiya: Instead of taking care of his God Son he traveled the world looking to take revenge on his teammate while also hitting brothels. Why would he keep chasing Orochimaru when he had more important things to worry about?

Cute. You want him to take care of his god son ? Why ? Looking to take revenge...do you even read the manga ? He kept his eyes on him to protect the village, to watch what he may plan for the village. He doesn't even have a reason to take revenge for god sake, where did you get that ? What's more important than protecting your home ? Your logic is a sore. That is, if we call that a "logic".

The fact is, none of these characters are actually soft, they are human, as are the Uchiha. You criticize the Uchiha for taking extreme measures, and yet Danzo, Hanzo, Nagato, Orochimaru, Gaara's father, The Raikage, etc etc all have taken extreme measures at one time or another. And they either had to, or felt they had to based on the situation.

You obviously can't fathom that a situation can force someone to make an extreme decision. The Uchiha Clan as a whole, are not extreme people despite what you may think

As I said before, both parties take extreme measures. But they are different, these guys take extreme measures for a logical cause. When your home or country or the freaking world is at stake, it calls for extreme measures. But because your crush died, you want to end everyones life ? Why ? Why the hell would you do that ? Because you're not at the top, you wan to create your own world ? Why ? Because a few people where keeping an eye on you and because you weren't at the top, you planned a coup without thinking that it could bring a disaster ?

They wanted what is rightfully theirs. They called what they were doing a revolution. They were an oppressed and ostracized people who wanted back what they helped build in the first place. Was a Coup the correct way to go about it? No. So while their means were wrong, they deserved what they wanted to fight for.

What is rightfully their ? I'm not saying what Tobirama did was right, but the Uchiha's response wasn't right either. If you wan something say it like a man and prove it with your action. Don't go scheming in the dark and plan to cause a disaster. Naruto wanted what is rightfully his, did he go scheming to destroy the village ? No. He proved it with his action and got what he wanted, respect.

You obviously don't read this manga very well. Nagato slaughtered Hanzo and everyone who even knew him. Innocent men women and children. He then developed a God Complex. And don't go saying he suffered more than Sasuke or Itachi, he lost his parents and best friend. Itachi had to kill his entire clan, and Sasuke had to watch him, and later was tortured by his brother on multiple occasions.

I don't read the manga well ? You shouldn't be saying that. Nagato didn't kill Hanzo for personal cause, it was as I said above. What about him developing a god complex ? He lost his friend and family ? Do really read the manga ? His family, his friends, his village, were all destroyed. His people and village were destroyed for no reason at all. His home was made into a battlefield. He then had to see the five great nations of whom destroyed his village and cause his people and himself to suffer, he had to see them enjoy a peaceful life, a life that was built on his people's misery. Itachi was different, there was a casue for him to kill his family and there was a benefit. Even he said he has no regrets at all, because he protected his village. Sasuke has no excuse, after he killed his brother, he should have stopped there and respect what his brother did. He should have looked for the greater good, and even if he wanted to kill Dazno, I understand, but why the village ? He shit on everything his brother suffered and died for. For his personal cause. Both Itachi and Nagato didn't do what they did because they like it, it's because they are smart enough to look at the greater good.

Naruto had to have multiple people help him so he didn't succumb to his fears and own hatred so again, don't by hypocritical

So did Sasuke. Don't be hypocritical as well.

Itachi had balls the size of basket balls. You are not a soft person if you can murder your parents in cold blood. Itachi was simply a pacifist, but he was by no means soft.

And Itachi didn't hate his village but he didn't love it either, he simply didn't want to see people suffer. Not to mention, he too was manipulated by Danzo

Please, spare me. He was on several occasions stated to be soft, and as another person on this thread mentioned, shinobi aren't supposed to have emotions. He loved his village to the point that Sasuke was the only one he loved more than Konoha. Don't go making things up. Even till the very end he stated he has no regrets because he had the chance to protect Konoha again. Don't make things up.

Reasonable? You are reasonable if you consider both sides of an argument. Itachi is the only reasonable person among the three you mentioned. The Raikage had to be beaten into submission in order for him to not kill Naruto and his own brother. And Tobirama is nothing but a stubborn bigot who is stuck in his ways.

And your second paragraph is a joke. They ousted their own clan leader for peace at one point. You are straight up ignoring facts here. And the Senju cared about the village so long as it didn't include the Uchiha. Or rather that is how Tobirama thought. I could lump all the other Senju aside from Hashirama into that but I don't stereotype and generalize like you seem to do.

They were reasonable. Just because they aren't childish, doesn't mean they are unreasonable.

But later on took his belief. You can't lump the whole Senju, because they aren't naturally born to hate the Uchiha. I'm not justifying what Tobirama did (mainly because he didn't do much), but the Uchiha are a bunch of fruit cakes.

This is not a deadly contagious disease. In fact, it isn't even a disease! It's a mutation in the eyes that occurs when they have a large strain of emotion. And I'm sorry but you are an idiot if you think therapy doesn't help mentally ill people.

Hashirama was dead when Tobirama was Hokage so Idk what you are going on here. And Hashirama wasn't living in a fantasy world, HE CREATED PEACE. That was very real.

Deadly contagious disease is an example. This is not the only natural phenomena the Uchiha suffer, it's one of two. Don't know why you're ignoring the first one, when they lose their love, they're consumed by evil\hate. It's bound to happen. They aren't mentally ill, that's why therapy doesn't help them. If you get a carnivore animal and took him to a therapist, is he gonna turn into a herbivore ? No. Therapy don't stop something natural from happening.

I made a mistake there. Still Hashirama couldn't argue against his logic and like I said, simply told him to put it in a more respectful way. Hashirama made a temporary peace, the same one that Nagato spoke of. He never made an eternal peace.

The greater good. Tobirama is the soul reason Edo Tensei is around. This jutsu led to the death of his own student and THOUSANDS of other people. Were was the greater good there? O! And it just so happens Madara, the man he feared so much, was revived with said jutsu.

The greater good is supposed to encompass everyone, and people without foresight shouldn't speak of the "greater good". Because thus far, all of Tobirama's decision have been shit and have led to nothing but extreme violence, more hatred, and totally chaos.

He has done nothing for the "greater good" as far as I am concerned. All he did was weaken Konoha and give it more enemies.

Yeah, Edo tensei functioned automatically and did all those things. Do you realize how stupid that is ? Weapons don't kill. People kill.

the greater good is to protect the village in this case. It's impossible to satisfy everyone in the world, get over your childish view. Itachi himself said so. If both your parents were on the verge of death, and you can save only one. Depending on who you choose, it may be for a greater good, but in the end no one will love it. If you think so rainbowfully both of them will die.

[M3J]

Tobirama was the root of the problem, if you actually look at it without bias.

He started segregating the Uchiha and has been shown to have an immensely bigoted view towards them. Hashirama never held such views despite warring with Uchiha, and neither did Hiruzen despite Uchiha coup d'etat. The elders' only problem (if not infected by Tobirama's bigotry) was that they didn't want to share power with anyone, which could be why they stripped Uchiha of any kind of political power. Danzou likely wanted the Uchiha killed for their eyes and to avoid any competition or disruption of his plan.

Had Tobirama not segregated the Uchiha or acted biased against them, then there likely wouldn't have been any Uchiha who followed in Madara's footsteps. And maybe the elders wouldn't have stripped Uchiha of equal political power or voice, which led to their coup d'etat, along with the segregation. So basically, everything that happened with the Uchiha is mainly Tobirama's fault. Had he thought the same way Hashirama did, then I'm sure that Uchiha would have still been alive and helping Konoha out immensely.

Too many signs point to Tobirama being a jerk, and elders being power hungry. I mean, Uchiha after forming Konoha showed no signs of hatred or anger until Tobirama started segregating them, and after they lost equality due to elders.

[KingOfNight]

^ They will eventually find a reason. Obito didn't suffer anything in particular and look...

Tobirama never ordered to kill them, it was gonna happen eventually. He wasn't doing the right thing, no one said he was. But the Uchiha were bound to be killed.

What I'm saying is, his actions are not so flowery but they are the logical actions for Shinobi. Anyone who doesn't understand that should reread the manga. Saying his a jerk or asshole or racist is sorely incorrect...he's just a shinobi.

[Hakuteiken]

^ They will eventually find a reason. Obito didn't suffer anything in particular and look...

Tobirama never ordered to kill them, it was gonna happen eventually. He wasn't doing the right thing, no one said he was. But the Uchiha were bound to be killed.

What I'm saying is, his actions are not so flowery but they are the logical actions for Shinobi. Anyone who doesn't understand that should reread the manga. Saying his a jerk or asshole or racist is sorely incorrect...he's just a shinobi.

I agree with that. Considering the morality or the justice behind the situation is one thing, saying this all happened just out of Tobirama's hatred for the Uchiha is a whole other one.
Tobirama thought highly of his village. He was a proud leader who died to save the next generation who was going to keep Konoha as a strong village in the future. And no matter how I look at it, I still cannot see what else I would do if I were in his place and had to handle a looming threat. Don't give me the Uchiha were 100% for the peace thing before Tobirama, I'm not buying it. He himself says there were Madara supporters. This could be easily interpreted as a cheap lie to save his face, but to be fair, Tobirama didn't seem interested in justifying his actions in the eyes of Orochimaru and someone who was following him (Sasuke).
So, I believe it's fair to assume there were people who weren't brave enough to side with Madara initially, but they still possessed a threat for the future of the village. It's Madara and his supporters' view that the police force was a facade to keep them away. In actuality, Tobirama gave them that role so that they'd have a job with prestige (well, I don't know, there are people here saying "Who doesn't hate the police?" or something like that, but realistically speaking, the police force is a naturally trusted branch) and also, they'd feel a certain degree of responsibility, which was what he thought that could have lead to channeling their power to the good of the village.

For me, Hashirama is more at the fault than Tobirama or Madara are. He believed there could be real peace, when, in reality, it was evident that it couldn't be maintained for eternity between those two clans.

[Uchiha_Blood]

I think so. He may have resorted to some drastic measures, but they were for the purpose of protecting his people. If you're gonna give Tobirama a pass, why not Fugaku?

Because what Fugaku devised wasn't for the best of his clan, it was a suicidal move that would kill all Uchihas and bring down the village with it.
While I admit ( with problems, since I loathe the character ) that he was pretty solid and had honor ( the scene with Itachi showed as much ), he still couldn't see, as Hiruzen said, the bigger picture.
I can say though he's not that different from the 2 old farts

Yeah right, of course. Itachi and Sasuke being born aound 20 years later? Nope, later. Itachi and Sasuke being potential Madara's on their own? Not even close a drunken Saturday evening. Itachi has nothing of madara's mentality and Sasuke was driven to the path he's in because of Tobirama, the Elders, Itachi and Tobi. Re-read the story.

Uchiha being raw talent with untameable hate? You may say I'm speculating, but your making things up and putting Tobirama on a pedestal. Did you read the story? Did you read the story? You don't don't look like you do. During the Sengoku Jidai, all clans were fighting each other with the hate that this brings. Hate was everywhere with everybody, Jiraiya talked about it, Yondaime talked about, Green Peace talked about it, the beatles sang about it. Once Hashirama proposed the truce, guess who accepted it and pushed towards it hard despite what Madara's warning or ill-will? Yes, yes, you can say it, you know it: THE ENTIRE UCHIHA CLAN MEMBERS! Yes, sir! Rewrite another book if you don't like it.

Kimimaro was raw talent, Orochimaru refined it. Haku was raw talent, refined by Zabuza. Uchiha natual geniuses who keep refining themselves.

Tobirama clearly responsible for for Naruto and Sasukes fight at The Valley of the End because he schemed against the Uchiha and the Elders maintained his policies, even hardening them. Did you forget Uzumaki Kushina and Uchiha Mikoto being friends, or did you forget it because Mikoto used her Sharingan on her to hide her untameable hatred?

And Tobirama is a long-term visionary, so I don't excuse what he did and think who was stupid enough not to see the OBVIOUS results of what he was doing. If you hit someone you need to be seriously stupid or arrogant thinking the other won't try to hit you back. Nidaime thought the Uchiha would "rebel" but didn't forsee ther protest when he planned on repressign them? Or what it would lead to with decades of such policies were them even to increase? I don't buy it.

So, according to you, this is all part of Tobirama's master plan? Up to the point of the fight between Sasuke and Naruto?
Also, because Uchihas pushed for peace then they are free from sin? They aren't that cursed clan anymore?
So you're saying that if, for example, Madara now would just desummon the Juubi he would be a good guy? Who is the naive one?
Tobirama made mistakes, but no one forced Uchihas to rebel and to be arrogant and prideful.
Remember Itachi's speech to Sasuke about the Police?
And you still haven't understood that the segregation began after the Kyuubi attack, meaning when Tobirama was long dead. I guess his master plan predicted Obito turning mad and attacking the village with Kyuubi

Of course I'm speculating, I'm Isay what the story told.

ANd I'm assuming, speculating that there was a council in which Uchiha and Senju were both present? Dude, did you not notice that every single major village we saw enough of had Elder/higher-ups Council? the only we didn,t see enough of among teh major countries is Iwagakure: Suna has its's own, Kumo had Elders by Raikage's saide, Kiri has Elders, Konoha has Elders. In Konoha, the elders are on Senju'S side. And did you forget the Uchiha and Senju built Konoha? That tehre was only 2 Clans to begin with? Do you they were all standing outside the building with Madara and Hashirama in alone discussing the affairs of their new Alliance? Do you really think that when Hashirama was elected there was nobody by his side, taht Madara and Uchiha were instantly pushed away because Hashirama became the big boss of the mountain? or do you thing Tobirama or Sarutobi invented the High Council idea and that there was none before? What is the ninja village government: Kage and Elders.

1-1= 0. x-1=0 >>x=0 +1 >> x= 1

Historywise: Uchiha are BEING OUTTEED of government (- 1) and thus are no longer part of government affairs (0). Not being part of government (aka 0) minus being tossed out of government affairs equals Uchiha being part of the government.

Tell me pal, how could the Uchiha managesd to be tossed out of government by Tobirama, as stated in the provided scans in my previous post, and how could Koharu say they'll be considered rebels if they want they political powers back, they weren,t part of the political power, of the government, which is the Elders Council, at the beginning? Tehy were part of teh government and Tobirama tossed them out, he didn't give them a position of power, they had a position of power since the very beginning of Konoha, the formation of teh Senju-Uchiha Alliance up until Tobirama retrograded them to guard dogs. i can't teach you how to read.

Are you aware that, in Konoha and everywhere else, every clan is treated like an equal, right?
There was no Senju/Uchiha council, there was a council made by people who were deemed skilled enough for the job, exactly like the position of Hokage.
What a great government it would be if, instead of merit, people would get chosen by heritage.
And are you aware that, while Uchiha and Senjus founded Konoha, other minor clans were under them, right? Or do you think 2 clans made of maximum 100 people each could occupy and rule a village?

he did segragated, he did isolated them.. Why teh fuck would he have to put them under surveillance by the ANBU at the outskirt of the village around the prison and out of governmetn for? You're telling me the other clans were put in something similar. Cause last time I checked, between the truce and the upgrade in repressions after Kyuubi's attack, the Uchiha are 100% pro-peace.

And Tobirama isn't strong enough to kill the uchiah Clan by himself, it shouldn,t even be talked about. I bet my 3rd left nut that 13 year strong enough to beat the Uchiha in few hours at night without having a drop of blood or dirt on their clothes didn't appear that often in the course of history, just saying.

And no, no more credible source countradicted that there were isolation on Uchiha before Kyuubi,s attack and by Tobirama's hands:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c619/14.html

Tell me, please: how old is orochimaru? 53-54 years-old, 54, going by the Databook. Can we, AND THIS IS JUST "SPECULATION", assume that he spent quite a long part of his life in Konoha and knows really quite well how it looks, the architecture, the urbanism, the location of things, how to get in and out undetected, secret paths and stuff like that? Can we? Yes, we can. Then, tell me how exactly could 54-year-old Orochimaru, with flashback image evidence, coudl say, and I quote:

"YOU EVEN BUILT THEIR HEADQUARTERS IN A LOCATION THAT ONCE SERVED AS A PRISON... UNDER THE GUISE OF MAINTAINING THE PEACE YOU KNOWINGLY CHASED THEM TO THE OUTSKIRT OF THE VILLAGE... YOU MADE THE SITUATION VERY FAVORABLE FOR MADARA TO GAIN SYMPATHIZER."

Tell me, fellow, don't you think taht orochimaru would notice it if the Uchiha had only been quanranteened to the backstore of the village just 16 years ago, when Kyuubi attacked? Hum? Hum? I can't teach you how to count.I don't think so. Don't you people notice somthing happened in New on September 11 2001 and that where stood the World trade Center there's now only Ground Zero? I think such change in the organization of the vilalge and the Uchiha Clan for the whole village to see wouldn't have missed Orochimaru notice, he's a smart kid.

That alone is uncounterable provof that the Uchiah were pushed away before Kyuubi's atacked, unless you can rewrite logic and events written on the manga, for the latter only Kishi can.

Dude, chill, Tobirama didn't segregate you

And if you would read, that's what Orochimaru said:

"you unwittingly fanned those flames, second, by forming the police force.
Under the guise of mantaining peace, you knowingly chased them to the outskirt of the village, you made the conditions very favorable for Madara to gain sympathizers..."

Now, where does Orochimaru talks about loss of political power?
Persecution?
He simply put them in a place easy to surveil, in the outskirts of the village. Take off the bias glasses and reread the sentence, where does it say that Uchiha were mistreated? Hated?
I guess Naruto or Gaara would want to go mad because they were in the outskirts of the village, not because they were ignored, mistreated, treated like dangerous beasts and, in Gaara's case, targeted for assassination.
You're right, Uchihas had all the rights in the world to want to rebel, I mean, going to the outskirts? That's treason!

Also kindly provide example of another clan having the same standing of an Uchiha, meaning a normal clan like everyone else, adding the Police force which made them above everyone else bar the Hokage and the council.

Tobirama can't "allow"them to mingle with the villagers, Uchiha are part of the village, they,re the historical co-root of the village, stop rewrtiting the things up. Tobirama was not the start of the project. hashirama proposed a truce, Uchiha accepted. then they formed and Alliance and then the village with many clans in it. Tobirama was not in any position to make the Uchiha enter konoha and mingle with the rest for the simple reason that it is not the chain of events: uchiha weren't invited in konoha, they built it with the Senju from scrap.

And Tobirama's words clearly shows that he wasn't Hashirama's biggest fan when treating with Uchihas.

They were the same clan of Madara, if he wanted to he could kill them all without a problem by inventing proof of them consorting with Madara, or simply take one that still followed him.
Why didn't he do it?
Why did he accept a Uchiha in his team? Why didn't he use that Uchiha to sacrifice when the Kumo ANBU was upon them, and sacrificed himself instead?
Ah no he's a facist, hate rage Uchiha must die!

Good one, I laugh my ass off (joking, here). Oh, isn't Tobirama a necromancer (Edo TEnsei)? Oops. Re-read, stop inventing.

Obito is as well, is Hashirama a "necromancer"?
Why then he agreed with what Tobirama said? Uchihas have a mental disorder, deal with it.
Also it wasn't Obito part of the group called "the ones who knows everything", you like it or not but what Tobirama said was the truth

Dude, Hiruzen doesn't have Tobiram,s mentality, don,t mix things up. Tobirama didn't give them a position of power, Uchihas were the co-founding clan and they've been pushed away of government into their police, with the Senju still ruling Hokage and High Council.

The Police force put Uchihas above every other clan.
It was a position no other clan had, and it wasn't granted by merits, but by heritage. I beg to differ

Good one, dude. 2 Uchiha are against the world and now they're all evil, logic is crying in its tomb. Ninjas aren,t supposed to be good, they,re assassasins, they live off murder, conspiration, espionnage and warfare. This isn't Walt Disney World. They're hate was driven towards the Senju, not against the world just like that, they would have accepted hashirama's offer otherwise nor would have been good elements of konoha with the good reputation of excellency they had.

You're biased to the core. The only 2 sane members? Wasn't Itachi tourmented by what was happening? Didn't Danzou attacked Shisui when he planned to find a blooshedless solution and prevent the Coup? Danzou wanted them dead point blacnk. If you stop somebody like Shisui from doind what he was planning and exit without Konoha nor Uchiha being reduced to ashes then yeah, Danzou is messed up. "All for for the good of the village, the nation and the world." Can you see me laughing? I'll write it hahahahahahahaah Good one.
And who pushed teh cuhiha to teh edge again? Tobirama and the Elders, exactly. They weren,t crazy, despite what you're trying to prove. Bias is bias, you being on Nidaime's side doesn't change a thing to it.

So now that Uchihas are involved, this is a ninja world but when Uchihas are "discriminated" because they're put in the outskirts, Tobirama is a nazist

"They have a history of depravity exceeding nijas standards" you pulled that one right out of terminal digestive opening. Nonesense. Show me the thing. Show me the Juugos havign run by the hundred throughout themillenia-old uchiha Clan history. I want to be overwhelmed. I don't ask Hitler to tell me the glory of the jews, nor the Us telling me the glory of USSR or vice-versa, or the Old persians and Old Greek talking great good about each other. I live on Planet Earth, gregorian calendar 21st century, when and where do you live in/at? Rhetorical,

Reread Itachi's explanations concerning the Uchihas, you show me proof of grave robbing, eye stealing, killing of friends, brothers and family only for power done by other clans.
Kaguya didn't do that to their kin, they were insane and loved to fight. Juugo's clan went insane because of nature energy as well, but we don't know about them killing their kin or stealing from corpses.
Go ahead, I'll be waiting

Yes I'm certain they wouldn't have "rebelled" had Tobirama kept his bigotry where it belong as they would have nothing to rebel about or from as tehy would still be part of the governemnt, nothing would lock them up at the outskirt, they would have made sure as much as possible that peace for konoha prevailed, Konoha would have ahd pissed hard on Orochimaru's forces, Naruto and Sasuke would be forced into friendship (may not have succeeded in the long run) by their mothers the annoying way mothers do, and there would still be 3 great wars.

Kyuubi attack my dear boy, that's what spurred the whole "loss of political power" and "segregation", I'm afraid.
Again, reread Itachi's flashback before disappearing

Let's take a minute for all the psychos and machiavellics who aren't Uchihas: Danzou, orochimaru, Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu, Hidan, Kisame, Zabuza before death, Kimimaro, Kabuto...
And now a minute another for all the Uchihas who aren't or have gone psychos that we know of: The Uchiha Clan minus Madara, Obito, some few who wanted EMS, Sasuke due to nidaime and Elders's scheme and... that's it.

I guess you read "Hashirama", the new manga Kishimoto wants to publish even before he start drawing it, because as it stands we don't know jack about how Uchihas were at the time of the founding.
All we were told is that they are originally a clan with a mental problem, a clan of warrior, a clan that resorted to stealing from graves, killing people to obtain power.
We also know they turned their back on Madara, who has still quite a few followers, after that the story fast-forwards to the aftermath of the Kyuubi attack, in which Uchihas planned a coup that would've killed them all regardless, bringing the village down with them.

All the above I can prove.
Can you prove Uchihas were good kids from Tobirama's time to Yondaime's time?

Yes he was. Stop trying to change the apst history. Without the other higher-ups he would never have trying a coup d'etat to stop the repression of his clan.

He could threaten Konoha by leaving the village, just to name something he could've done that didn't involve a massacre
But that's a ninja story, right? Pacific, well thought solutions are Disney material

[shahdan]

Why is Madara being portrayed like a crazed maniac here? He fought Muu and Onoki and compelled them to recognize Konoha. At that moment, the man had EMS - as according to the time-line Izuna gave his eyes to Madara during times of war - and yet he tried to protect the new founded Nation. The rift between both of the clans started when he wasn't selected as a Hokage. He feared, his clan will be segregated and subjugated. His fears weren't misplaced. His own clan turned his back on him, when he had sacrificed his only family to protect them. If this wouldn't result in so-called 'negative emotions' in any normal humanbeing, I don't know what will. Was Madara wrong? He actually turned out to be quite clairvoyant.

The problem with Tobirama is that his philosophy is self-serving. All his justifications are born of Uchiha hate and nothing more, when the 'negative and cursed' emotions ruled him more than anyone else. He cornered a founding clan by limiting their political hold, so that they will never be able to take the reigns of the government and the hold or power will remain titled in his clan's or pro=senju individuals favour. By pushing them to the verges of the village, he forced additional surveillance on the clan that had long since turned his back on Madara. Still the man wasn't satisfied and he passed on his will to his council men that made up the typical pro-senju lapdogs; Danzo and the two elders.

To even venture that Tobirama is not responsible for the massacre is a hilariously misplaced notion. His bigoted views served his own whims. All his pointers on 'Uchiha curse' are nothing but far-fetched non-sense and made-up garbage, which he contrived as some sort of desperate justification for his actions. The fact remains; his views on Madara and 'Uchiha Curse' are false because of his lopsidedness and disgustingly skewed perceptions. Why is he even allowed to push aside a clan as he saw fit?

[Kid Chameleone]

Tobirama was the root of the problem, if you actually look at it without bias.

He started segregating the Uchiha and has been shown to have an immensely bigoted view towards them. Hashirama never held such views despite warring with Uchiha, and neither did Hiruzen despite Uchiha coup d'etat. The elders' only problem (if not infected by Tobirama's bigotry) was that they didn't want to share power with anyone, which could be why they stripped Uchiha of any kind of political power. Danzou likely wanted the Uchiha killed for their eyes and to avoid any competition or disruption of his plan.

Had Tobirama not segregated the Uchiha or acted biased against them, then there likely wouldn't have been any Uchiha who followed in Madara's footsteps. And maybe the elders wouldn't have stripped Uchiha of equal political power or voice, which led to their coup d'etat, along with the segregation. So basically, everything that happened with the Uchiha is mainly Tobirama's fault. Had he thought the same way Hashirama did, then I'm sure that Uchiha would have still been alive and helping Konoha out immensely.

Too many signs point to Tobirama being a jerk, and elders being power hungry. I mean, Uchiha after forming Konoha showed no signs of hatred or anger until Tobirama started segregating them, and after they lost equality due to elders.

He clearly stated he did what he did because of madara. Cause and effect. The same thing wouldve happened to any clan regardless of the kage. The most logical thing would be to move them in case of further attacks. If they actually pulled another coup that close they could ruin the village and look what happned in thr future lol they planned a coup. Hiruzen tried to talk them into peace so dont act like they were forced to do a coup that was all on them. They shouldve focused on proving their innocence and loyalty but instead they got suspicious even though they had special privilege as the police force.

You say dont be biased but youre ignoring all the faults of the uchiha lol yeah tobirama did what he did but he had to as it was most logical. What did they do to prove their loyalty to the village? Plan a coup instead of shedding the image of madara and their blood stained history.

Dont be so quick to judge without taking in all the factors he made the right choice, regardless if he hates the uchiha theybwere a threat to everyone not just him. Youre acting like they were just attacking the senju and not trying to take over the entire village which wouldve lead to unnecessary bloodshed not to mention theybwould be open to attacks from other villages. A coup wouldbleas to the ens of konoha so why take the risk? Tobirama was a good kage, dont hate because the uchiha are now seemingly puupy dogs even though they steal each others eyes for power :l

[Hakuteiken]

Why is Madara being portrayed like a crazed maniac here? He fought Muu and Onoki and compelled them to recognize Konoha. At that moment, the man had EMS - as according to the time-line Izuna gave his eyes to Madara during times of war - and yet he tried to protect the new founded Nation.

And his actions were already straying from what Hashirama stated, by Oonoki's own words. He refers to him as the "that Shinobi" without proper manner whatsoever, either. Besides, he rules out the possible Alliance with Iwa, which further proves his war-loving attitude.

[shahdan]

^ It simply shows a 'difference of opinion'. Hashirama was no saint either. He literally handed out gift wrapped Bijuus to start an arms race between nations and appointed his own brother as a Hokage knowingly that he possessed a cruel streak to prosecute an opposing clan endlessly. Madara was born on the battle-field, hence it isn't unrealistic to have a leaning towards conflicts' for a war-veteran. Also, I wouldn't take someone like Onoki seriously, who paid Akatsuki to commit acts of terrorism on several nations.

[Hakuteiken]

^ It simply shows a 'difference of opinion'. Hashirama was no saint either. He literally handed out gift wrapped Bijuus to start an arms race between nations and appointed his own brother as a Hokage knowingly that he possessed a cruel streak to prosecute an opposing clan endlessly. Madara was born on the battle-field, hence it isn't unrealistic to have a leaning towards conflicts' for a war-veteran. Also, I wouldn't take someone like Onoki seriously, who paid Akatsuki to commit acts of terrorism on several nations.

While I could say he wasn't a saint, I don't think he was giving away the Bijuu to create a war tension. The aim was to maintain the power balance. And actually, unless someone enjoys the battle itself more than a victory, that person won't be sharing that much of power with other countries.
Appointing Tobirama as the Hokage.. We don't know much about the situation in that time, but I could agree it's debatable. Perhaps Hashirama saw Tobirama as the only person present at that time to be appointed. Since this isn't about a clan dynasty, that's all I could think of.

Besides, I do think Madara's attitude was natural, just as Tobirama's was. I simply think what Hashirama had in his mind as a peaceful world was far too unrealistic.

Side Note: About Oonoki; what you said could have been true, but it's just a flashback, not something voiced by him, so, I can say that was the truth.

[shahdan]

^ There are two sides to everything, unless that guy was a complete, blithering idiot - which he does seem to be - he should have foreseen the arms-race that would/could follow his decision to distribute Bijuus among nations. This completely titled the power balance in favour of Konoha and other nations that had powerful tailed-beasts with more spiritual tails than those at the lower level. It was bound to create political tensions sooner or later, and we saw that as well during Hizuren's reign when A and Bee attacked the outskirts in hopes to claim the nine-tails.

Akastsuki point? He accepted it when A called out on him and again during the war. It isn't some flash back.

[Impossibility]

^ It simply shows a 'difference of opinion'. Hashirama was no saint either. He literally handed out gift wrapped Bijuus to start an arms race between nations and appointed his own brother as a Hokage knowingly that he possessed a cruel streak to prosecute an opposing clan endlessly. Madara was born on the battle-field, hence it isn't unrealistic to have a leaning towards conflicts' for a war-veteran. Also, I wouldn't take someone like Onoki seriously, who paid Akatsuki to commit acts of terrorism on several nations.

Wait, Madara being completely maniacal is 'difference of opinion'. I'm also absolutely certain that Hashirama didn't hand out 'gift wrapped Bijuus to start an arms race between nations'. So Hashirama is a war-bringer, while Madara is what....having strenuous debates. That just isn't consistent with anything that we've seen. And how have you come to characterise Tobirama as cruel. What we know of Niidaime comes down to a single chapter, and his own words of his opinion of the Uchiha and his political machinations. None of those things indicate an individual that could be considered cruel. This is an individual that distrusted a clan, with very good reason, and did what he thought was best to stabilise his village. And Madara was born in the same era as Shodai and Niidaime, so that 'born on the battlefield' excuse is just unacceptable. Madara's plot to take on the entire ninja world and bring death to tens of thousands is justifiable, but Tobirama's decision to push the Uchiha from the central power of the Leaf is beyond the pale. Seriously? Also, Oonoki's observations on the matter should be as valid as anyone else's, despite his past with Akatsuki. You attempting to dismiss Oonoki is just unreasonable, particularly considering that you've spent so much effort defending the mastermind behind Akatsuki itself.

^ There are two sides to everything, unless that guy was a complete, blithering idiot - which he does seem to be - he should have foreseen the arms-race that would/could follow his decision to distribute Bijuus among nations. This completely titled the power balance in favour of Konoha and other nations that had powerful tailed-beasts with more spiritual tails than those at the lower level. It was bound to create political tensions sooner or later, and we saw that as well during Hizuren's reign when A and Bee attacked the outskirts in hopes to claim the nine-tails.

If Konoha had hoarded the Bijuus the outcome would've been the same, or worse. The other villages would've simply conspired to steal the Bijuus. Hashirama attempted to have the Bijuus serve as peace offerings, it didn't work out. At no point did Hashirama intend to initiate an arms race. He attempted to prevent just that.

[Hakuteiken]

^ There are two sides to everything, unless that guy was a complete, blithering idiot - which he does seem to be - he should have foreseen the arms-race that would/could follow his decision to distribute Bijuus among nations. This completely titled the power balance in favour of Konoha and other nations that had powerful tailed-beasts with more spiritual tails than those at the lower level. It was bound to create political tensions sooner or later, and we saw that as well during Hizuren's reign when A and Bee attacked the outskirts in hopes to claim the nine-tails.

Akastsuki point? He accepted it when A called out on him and again during the war. It isn't some flash back.

So, because Konoha had the strongest Bijuu, conflict would rise, that's right. But I can't see peace maintained through terrorism and keeping all the Bijuu for a single village, either.

No, I'm not talking about his past relationship with Akatsuki.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/562/2
This is what I referred to. Madara, even before leaving the village, was opposing Hashirama's authority.

[Rikudou King]

I'm not so sure about that. Even currently with all the troubles they had to take, Konoha maintains superiority over the other villages. Back in their heyday with eight Bijuus available for usage... Don't think any village would be stupid enough to try and attack them. Not outright at least. Perhaps solo, targeted attempts, but those would happen whatever the case was.

And that's pretty much becoming a theme, how the past events continue to cause unintended effects in the future. Though personality, I think passing out the Bijuus was a terrible thing to do. Their only use is as weapons, and without anyone to control them like the Uzumaki and Uchiha could, the only option available was sacrificing innocent children.

[Hakuteiken]

That can't be helped. War is in a human's nature. You win and survive, you lose and become extinct.
Hashirama simply wouldn't be able to keep his fellow villagers at bay if they had all the Bijuu under control. They would refuse to be bound by equality since they had the power and others didn't. Then, different fractions, aligning with different Jinchuuriki in Konoha, would start a civil war, anyway.