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Who said they wanted to fight the Senju ? Their beef with the Senju was over. They wanted to take control. Just because Tobirama set some people to mark them, a new Madara appeared in few of them. Tobirama didn't do it for personal gain, he did it for the village. Even the third Hokage, despite him trying to find a logical solution, Danzo stated that as the Hokage, he will take drastic measures to protect the village. That's th logical thinking of a Shinobi. So it's not just Tobirama, it's every Shinobi's way of thinking. Your logic is that of a kid, who thinks everything will be solved with love and friendship. That's not how the characters in Naruto manga think, with the exception of very few.
About the Raikage, I can't even believe you said that. That's the biggest proof of your rainbow-ish thinking. He has to trust in their power ? Really ? When they couldn't even manage to get past him, he has to trust in their power ? He is the supreme leader of the ASF. The fate of the whole world not only the village is on his shoulder. And you want him to just leave it to luck and say "go children ! I have absolute faith in you". Be realistic will you, he is burdened by the lives of everyone, he can't just act like it's not his responsibility.
Look at Tsunade, she trusted Naruto in bringing Sasuke instead of absolutely killing him, and see where it led. He's now one of the worst criminals, killed tons of innocent people, tries to destroy the leaf, and collaborated with all the bad guys. That's where your childish thinking leads. When Danzo took the seat, the first thing he did is order to kill Sasuke. It's the absolute most logical thing to do.
Okay, let's say he did as you want him and allowed them to pass, and then they failed to stop Madara. Then what ? Of course it's a shounen, so it's not gonna happen, but what if it did ? The world will be destroyed and the Raikage will die in regret, knowing that he could've delayed that a few years and perhaps find a way to stop it. Be realistic man.
He didn't kill them. He tried to direct their power to benefit the village. But they didn't like it. The fact that he fully knew they were going to repel eventually, shows that he was right about them. The problem with you thinking, is that it's unrealistic.
All the Shinobi in the world lost someone, did they go to destroy the world ? No. Tobirama specifically stated that the Uchiha are consumed by evil\hate once the lose someone. It's a natural phenomena for the Uchiha clan. Like all the Ninja I stated below, they weren't consumed by hate.Quote:
Watch the way you speak, just because you're ignorant doesn't make us retarded. He could've joined with them and possibly even help them bring victory. It's not like he didn't love his clan, or that he wasn't bothered by the treatment they received. But he thought about the village above everything else. It's not even wisdom, it's a common sense in the Narutoverse.Quote:
Orochimaru himself pointed that he didn't knew they will be affected like that. Tobirama has no reason to endanger the village.Quote:
His hatred didn't blind him, for the love of god, it's a common sense in this manga. He did what he did to protect the village.
Can you bring me a proof that he did it for the Senju clan ? I don't want your opinion, I want a proof that he did it for them. Because I have proof that he did it for the village.
They will find a reason like Obito and Madara did. How do you plan to stop their loved one from dying ? How do you plan to stop their natural things from occurring ? How do you plan to stop them from having negative emotions ? And if you treat them nicely and let's assume you provide them a paradise where their loved one won't die, how will you stop their internal fighting ? Itachi knew that Sasuke was bound to hate him as he grows. The chain of events simply changed that slightly, and made him love Itachi again. Tobirama said he saw it countless of times, COUNTLESS. Is it so hard to comprehend that ? Some of them shared Madara's point of view, and that's the Hokage should be an Uchiha. It was bound to happen eventually.Quote:
They are a soft clan indeed. How long they wait doesn't change that their cause is bullshit. It's not a Senju and Uchiha thing here, even Danzo and the elders who weren't of either clan knew that they are a cursed clan.
Madara was not a warrior who wanted to prove his might and take what's rightfully his. Did you miss the whole flashback with Obito ? Let me summarize it for you : "Oh, in this world there is always winners and losers. But I want a world of winners only. A world full of love, pancakes and Teletubbies" <--that's his brilliant cause. If it's not softness then what is that ? Look, no matter what happened to you, no matter how miserable your life is, even if it's more tragic than Nagato, Itachi, Sasuke, Naruto, Gaara and Madara's lifes combined, it still won't justify trying to destroy the world and create a new one for your own. Not even all that misery can justify that let alone a stupid reason such as Madara or Obito's. If that's not Teletubbies-ness, then what is it ?
And Obito ? Didn't he already left and come back on his own ? Even now he isn't doing it for Madara but for his own goal. He was never manipulated. That's why Nagato, Yahiko and Naruto, said "fuck off" when given the same option. Did you ran out of ideas and made shit up ? Manipulated ? You haven't even answered to the drugs example because you know it's true.
I'm surprised you call our way of thinking retarded, when I look at your's. How does the Kyuubi taking control of Naruto has to do with Naruto himself ? He as a human, his mentality never change. All he wanted was to prove himself not kill everyone everywhere.Quote:
Where do you start ? Go check the manga again and then start. Hanzo and Danzo both were. He killed Hanzo to usurp his throne and take the lead of Amegakure, not for personal cause. He wanted to create this weapon because he was logical, he knew that it was impossible to achieve true peace. Did you miss what Naruto said ? He went about it differently but in his heart he wished for peace. He didn't wan to end humanity or take revenge. He looked unto the future and how to make it better.Quote:
You don't seem to understand the concept of "soft" I'm using. Changing his way was a sign that he was good at heart, that he wasn't an idiot doing everything for personal gain. That's not what the Uchiha are, they are doing this shit just for themselves.Quote:
Cute. You want him to take care of his god son ? Why ? Looking to take revenge...do you even read the manga ? He kept his eyes on him to protect the village, to watch what he may plan for the village. He doesn't even have a reason to take revenge for god sake, where did you get that ? What's more important than protecting your home ? Your logic is a sore. That is, if we call that a "logic".Quote:
As I said before, both parties take extreme measures. But they are different, these guys take extreme measures for a logical cause. When your home or country or the freaking world is at stake, it calls for extreme measures. But because your crush died, you want to end everyones life ? Why ? Why the hell would you do that ? Because you're not at the top, you wan to create your own world ? Why ? Because a few people where keeping an eye on you and because you weren't at the top, you planned a coup without thinking that it could bring a disaster ?Quote:
What is rightfully their ? I'm not saying what Tobirama did was right, but the Uchiha's response wasn't right either. If you wan something say it like a man and prove it with your action. Don't go scheming in the dark and plan to cause a disaster. Naruto wanted what is rightfully his, did he go scheming to destroy the village ? No. He proved it with his action and got what he wanted, respect.Quote:
I don't read the manga well ? You shouldn't be saying that. Nagato didn't kill Hanzo for personal cause, it was as I said above. What about him developing a god complex ? He lost his friend and family ? Do really read the manga ? His family, his friends, his village, were all destroyed. His people and village were destroyed for no reason at all. His home was made into a battlefield. He then had to see the five great nations of whom destroyed his village and cause his people and himself to suffer, he had to see them enjoy a peaceful life, a life that was built on his people's misery. Itachi was different, there was a casue for him to kill his family and there was a benefit. Even he said he has no regrets at all, because he protected his village. Sasuke has no excuse, after he killed his brother, he should have stopped there and respect what his brother did. He should have looked for the greater good, and even if he wanted to kill Dazno, I understand, but why the village ? He shit on everything his brother suffered and died for. For his personal cause. Both Itachi and Nagato didn't do what they did because they like it, it's because they are smart enough to look at the greater good.Quote:
So did Sasuke. Don't be hypocritical as well.Quote:
Please, spare me. He was on several occasions stated to be soft, and as another person on this thread mentioned, shinobi aren't supposed to have emotions. He loved his village to the point that Sasuke was the only one he loved more than Konoha. Don't go making things up. Even till the very end he stated he has no regrets because he had the chance to protect Konoha again. Don't make things up.Quote:
They were reasonable. Just because they aren't childish, doesn't mean they are unreasonable.Quote:
But later on took his belief. You can't lump the whole Senju, because they aren't naturally born to hate the Uchiha. I'm not justifying what Tobirama did (mainly because he didn't do much), but the Uchiha are a bunch of fruit cakes.
Deadly contagious disease is an example. This is not the only natural phenomena the Uchiha suffer, it's one of two. Don't know why you're ignoring the first one, when they lose their love, they're consumed by evil\hate. It's bound to happen. They aren't mentally ill, that's why therapy doesn't help them. If you get a carnivore animal and took him to a therapist, is he gonna turn into a herbivore ? No. Therapy don't stop something natural from happening.Quote:
I made a mistake there. Still Hashirama couldn't argue against his logic and like I said, simply told him to put it in a more respectful way. Hashirama made a temporary peace, the same one that Nagato spoke of. He never made an eternal peace.
Yeah, Edo tensei functioned automatically and did all those things. Do you realize how stupid that is ? Weapons don't kill. People kill.Quote:
the greater good is to protect the village in this case. It's impossible to satisfy everyone in the world, get over your childish view. Itachi himself said so. If both your parents were on the verge of death, and you can save only one. Depending on who you choose, it may be for a greater good, but in the end no one will love it. If you think so rainbowfully both of them will die.
Last edited by KingOfNight; February 09, 2013 at 03:39 AM.
Tobirama was the root of the problem, if you actually look at it without bias.
He started segregating the Uchiha and has been shown to have an immensely bigoted view towards them. Hashirama never held such views despite warring with Uchiha, and neither did Hiruzen despite Uchiha coup d'etat. The elders' only problem (if not infected by Tobirama's bigotry) was that they didn't want to share power with anyone, which could be why they stripped Uchiha of any kind of political power. Danzou likely wanted the Uchiha killed for their eyes and to avoid any competition or disruption of his plan.
Had Tobirama not segregated the Uchiha or acted biased against them, then there likely wouldn't have been any Uchiha who followed in Madara's footsteps. And maybe the elders wouldn't have stripped Uchiha of equal political power or voice, which led to their coup d'etat, along with the segregation. So basically, everything that happened with the Uchiha is mainly Tobirama's fault. Had he thought the same way Hashirama did, then I'm sure that Uchiha would have still been alive and helping Konoha out immensely.
Too many signs point to Tobirama being a jerk, and elders being power hungry. I mean, Uchiha after forming Konoha showed no signs of hatred or anger until Tobirama started segregating them, and after they lost equality due to elders.
^ They will eventually find a reason. Obito didn't suffer anything in particular and look...
Tobirama never ordered to kill them, it was gonna happen eventually. He wasn't doing the right thing, no one said he was. But the Uchiha were bound to be killed.
What I'm saying is, his actions are not so flowery but they are the logical actions for Shinobi. Anyone who doesn't understand that should reread the manga. Saying his a jerk or asshole or racist is sorely incorrect...he's just a shinobi.
Last edited by KingOfNight; February 09, 2013 at 04:06 AM.
Tobirama thought highly of his village. He was a proud leader who died to save the next generation who was going to keep Konoha as a strong village in the future. And no matter how I look at it, I still cannot see what else I would do if I were in his place and had to handle a looming threat. Don't give me the Uchiha were 100% for the peace thing before Tobirama, I'm not buying it. He himself says there were Madara supporters. This could be easily interpreted as a cheap lie to save his face, but to be fair, Tobirama didn't seem interested in justifying his actions in the eyes of Orochimaru and someone who was following him (Sasuke).
So, I believe it's fair to assume there were people who weren't brave enough to side with Madara initially, but they still possessed a threat for the future of the village. It's Madara and his supporters' view that the police force was a facade to keep them away. In actuality, Tobirama gave them that role so that they'd have a job with prestige (well, I don't know, there are people here saying "Who doesn't hate the police?" or something like that, but realistically speaking, the police force is a naturally trusted branch) and also, they'd feel a certain degree of responsibility, which was what he thought that could have lead to channeling their power to the good of the village.
For me, Hashirama is more at the fault than Tobirama or Madara are. He believed there could be real peace, when, in reality, it was evident that it couldn't be maintained for eternity between those two clans.
While I admit ( with problems, since I loathe the character ) that he was pretty solid and had honor ( the scene with Itachi showed as much ), he still couldn't see, as Hiruzen said, the bigger picture.
I can say though he's not that different from the 2 old farts
Also, because Uchihas pushed for peace then they are free from sin? They aren't that cursed clan anymore?
So you're saying that if, for example, Madara now would just desummon the Juubi he would be a good guy? Who is the naive one?
Tobirama made mistakes, but no one forced Uchihas to rebel and to be arrogant and prideful.
Remember Itachi's speech to Sasuke about the Police?
And you still haven't understood that the segregation began after the Kyuubi attack, meaning when Tobirama was long dead. I guess his master plan predicted Obito turning mad and attacking the village with Kyuubi
Are you aware that, in Konoha and everywhere else, every clan is treated like an equal, right?Quote:
There was no Senju/Uchiha council, there was a council made by people who were deemed skilled enough for the job, exactly like the position of Hokage.
What a great government it would be if, instead of merit, people would get chosen by heritage.
And are you aware that, while Uchiha and Senjus founded Konoha, other minor clans were under them, right? Or do you think 2 clans made of maximum 100 people each could occupy and rule a village?
Dude, chill, Tobirama didn't segregate youQuote:
And if you would read, that's what Orochimaru said:
"you unwittingly fanned those flames, second, by forming the police force.
Under the guise of mantaining peace, you knowingly chased them to the outskirt of the village, you made the conditions very favorable for Madara to gain sympathizers..."
Now, where does Orochimaru talks about loss of political power?
He simply put them in a place easy to surveil, in the outskirts of the village. Take off the bias glasses and reread the sentence, where does it say that Uchiha were mistreated? Hated?
I guess Naruto or Gaara would want to go mad because they were in the outskirts of the village, not because they were ignored, mistreated, treated like dangerous beasts and, in Gaara's case, targeted for assassination.
You're right, Uchihas had all the rights in the world to want to rebel, I mean, going to the outskirts? That's treason!
Also kindly provide example of another clan having the same standing of an Uchiha, meaning a normal clan like everyone else, adding the Police force which made them above everyone else bar the Hokage and the council.
They were the same clan of Madara, if he wanted to he could kill them all without a problem by inventing proof of them consorting with Madara, or simply take one that still followed him.Quote:
Why didn't he do it?
Why did he accept a Uchiha in his team? Why didn't he use that Uchiha to sacrifice when the Kumo ANBU was upon them, and sacrificed himself instead?
Ah no he's a facist, hate rage Uchiha must die!
Obito is as well, is Hashirama a "necromancer"?Quote:
Why then he agreed with what Tobirama said? Uchihas have a mental disorder, deal with it.
Also it wasn't Obito part of the group called "the ones who knows everything", you like it or not but what Tobirama said was the truth
The Police force put Uchihas above every other clan.Quote:
It was a position no other clan had, and it wasn't granted by merits, but by heritage. I beg to differ
So now that Uchihas are involved, this is a ninja world but when Uchihas are "discriminated" because they're put in the outskirts, Tobirama is a nazistQuote:
Reread Itachi's explanations concerning the Uchihas, you show me proof of grave robbing, eye stealing, killing of friends, brothers and family only for power done by other clans.Quote:
Kaguya didn't do that to their kin, they were insane and loved to fight. Juugo's clan went insane because of nature energy as well, but we don't know about them killing their kin or stealing from corpses.
Go ahead, I'll be waiting
Kyuubi attack my dear boy, that's what spurred the whole "loss of political power" and "segregation", I'm afraid.Quote:
Again, reread Itachi's flashback before disappearing
I guess you read "Hashirama", the new manga Kishimoto wants to publish even before he start drawing it, because as it stands we don't know jack about how Uchihas were at the time of the founding.Quote:
All we were told is that they are originally a clan with a mental problem, a clan of warrior, a clan that resorted to stealing from graves, killing people to obtain power.
We also know they turned their back on Madara, who has still quite a few followers, after that the story fast-forwards to the aftermath of the Kyuubi attack, in which Uchihas planned a coup that would've killed them all regardless, bringing the village down with them.
All the above I can prove.
Can you prove Uchihas were good kids from Tobirama's time to Yondaime's time?
He could threaten Konoha by leaving the village, just to name something he could've done that didn't involve a massacreQuote:
But that's a ninja story, right? Pacific, well thought solutions are Disney material
Last edited by Uchiha_Blood; February 09, 2013 at 05:13 AM.
Why is Madara being portrayed like a crazed maniac here? He fought Muu and Onoki and compelled them to recognize Konoha. At that moment, the man had EMS - as according to the time-line Izuna gave his eyes to Madara during times of war - and yet he tried to protect the new founded Nation. The rift between both of the clans started when he wasn't selected as a Hokage. He feared, his clan will be segregated and subjugated. His fears weren't misplaced. His own clan turned his back on him, when he had sacrificed his only family to protect them. If this wouldn't result in so-called 'negative emotions' in any normal humanbeing, I don't know what will. Was Madara wrong? He actually turned out to be quite clairvoyant.
The problem with Tobirama is that his philosophy is self-serving. All his justifications are born of Uchiha hate and nothing more, when the 'negative and cursed' emotions ruled him more than anyone else. He cornered a founding clan by limiting their political hold, so that they will never be able to take the reigns of the government and the hold or power will remain titled in his clan's or pro=senju individuals favour. By pushing them to the verges of the village, he forced additional surveillance on the clan that had long since turned his back on Madara. Still the man wasn't satisfied and he passed on his will to his council men that made up the typical pro-senju lapdogs; Danzo and the two elders.
To even venture that Tobirama is not responsible for the massacre is a hilariously misplaced notion. His bigoted views served his own whims. All his pointers on 'Uchiha curse' are nothing but far-fetched non-sense and made-up garbage, which he contrived as some sort of desperate justification for his actions. The fact remains; his views on Madara and 'Uchiha Curse' are false because of his lopsidedness and disgustingly skewed perceptions. Why is he even allowed to push aside a clan as he saw fit?
You say dont be biased but youre ignoring all the faults of the uchiha lol yeah tobirama did what he did but he had to as it was most logical. What did they do to prove their loyalty to the village? Plan a coup instead of shedding the image of madara and their blood stained history.
Dont be so quick to judge without taking in all the factors he made the right choice, regardless if he hates the uchiha theybwere a threat to everyone not just him. Youre acting like they were just attacking the senju and not trying to take over the entire village which wouldve lead to unnecessary bloodshed not to mention theybwould be open to attacks from other villages. A coup wouldbleas to the ens of konoha so why take the risk? Tobirama was a good kage, dont hate because the uchiha are now seemingly puupy dogs even though they steal each others eyes for power :l
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; February 09, 2013 at 12:45 PM.
^ It simply shows a 'difference of opinion'. Hashirama was no saint either. He literally handed out gift wrapped Bijuus to start an arms race between nations and appointed his own brother as a Hokage knowingly that he possessed a cruel streak to prosecute an opposing clan endlessly. Madara was born on the battle-field, hence it isn't unrealistic to have a leaning towards conflicts' for a war-veteran. Also, I wouldn't take someone like Onoki seriously, who paid Akatsuki to commit acts of terrorism on several nations.
Appointing Tobirama as the Hokage.. We don't know much about the situation in that time, but I could agree it's debatable. Perhaps Hashirama saw Tobirama as the only person present at that time to be appointed. Since this isn't about a clan dynasty, that's all I could think of.
Besides, I do think Madara's attitude was natural, just as Tobirama's was. I simply think what Hashirama had in his mind as a peaceful world was far too unrealistic.
Side Note: About Oonoki; what you said could have been true, but it's just a flashback, not something voiced by him, so, I can say that was the truth.
^ There are two sides to everything, unless that guy was a complete, blithering idiot - which he does seem to be - he should have foreseen the arms-race that would/could follow his decision to distribute Bijuus among nations. This completely titled the power balance in favour of Konoha and other nations that had powerful tailed-beasts with more spiritual tails than those at the lower level. It was bound to create political tensions sooner or later, and we saw that as well during Hizuren's reign when A and Bee attacked the outskirts in hopes to claim the nine-tails.
Akastsuki point? He accepted it when A called out on him and again during the war. It isn't some flash back.
Last edited by Impossibility; February 09, 2013 at 05:21 PM.
No, I'm not talking about his past relationship with Akatsuki.
This is what I referred to. Madara, even before leaving the village, was opposing Hashirama's authority.
I'm not so sure about that. Even currently with all the troubles they had to take, Konoha maintains superiority over the other villages. Back in their heyday with eight Bijuus available for usage... Don't think any village would be stupid enough to try and attack them. Not outright at least. Perhaps solo, targeted attempts, but those would happen whatever the case was.
And that's pretty much becoming a theme, how the past events continue to cause unintended effects in the future. Though personality, I think passing out the Bijuus was a terrible thing to do. Their only use is as weapons, and without anyone to control them like the Uzumaki and Uchiha could, the only option available was sacrificing innocent children.
That can't be helped. War is in a human's nature. You win and survive, you lose and become extinct.
Hashirama simply wouldn't be able to keep his fellow villagers at bay if they had all the Bijuu under control. They would refuse to be bound by equality since they had the power and others didn't. Then, different fractions, aligning with different Jinchuuriki in Konoha, would start a civil war, anyway.