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Tobirama shifted the Uchiha into that police force because he didn't want any of them in such afore mentioned politic positions, that much was said by Obito.
^again that scan: "But even that was a means to keep them out of government affairs".
The Uchiha where equal co-founders of Konoha, so how isn't this unfair treatment? Thats like if the both of us would build a hut together and once we're done I keep the keys and reserve myself the final say on everything this hut will be used for... and leaving you with the job of guarding it on top of that.
Last edited by LnDRash; February 08, 2013 at 07:07 AM.
Itachi's flashback shows it as much, and that was because of Obito's doing ( and probably the fact Uchihas disappeared that night ).
Uchihas were part of the village, they had people in the ANBU unit ( Shisui, Itachi ), people who had normal rank ( Sasuke and Itachi's mom was a Jounin and friends with the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki ) and pratically worked together with Tobirama ( Kagami, whoever he was ).
Tobirama created the force, we understood from last chapter, for 2 reasons:
-use the Uchiha's overwhelming strenght
-watch over them in case another Madara began to rise
Never it is said by anyone that Uchihas were discriminated before the Kyuubi attack
Well, if you read the page I posted and the next one then according to Obito it was like this:
- Konoha gets founded by Uchiha and Senju.
- Madara rebels, Uchihas turn their back on him and he gets killed by Hashirama.
- Police Force gets astablished to get the Uchihas out of Government Affairs and to surveillance them.
- Uchiha are displeased but for numerous years they accept their fate as the Senjus dogs.
- Kyuubi Attacks, Uchihas get quarantined even more.
- Uchihas have enough and plan to rebel, leading to the massacre.
To be fair, it was just Madara's paranoiac and power-obsessed perception of the story that the Uchiha were getting discriminated. That's the reason the Uchiha didn't follow him in the first place, him acting like nothing more than a sore loser against Hashirama's rule.
Obito is just telling us how Madara views this all. Madara, through his pupil, Obito, is the direct reason the massacre happened, since he held a grudge for his own clansmen.
Tobirama villianized the Uchiha for the acts of a few. Instead of treating them like the sick people they are that needed help, he treated them like criminals (there base of operations was in a former jail) and monsters. The fact is only a few turn out like Madara did, and of the few that did, many were manipulated into being like that.
Hashirama didn't disagree about their "curse" he did however strongly disagree about Tobirama's methods and his blatant bigotry towards the Uchiha.
And a soft clan? Any clan of people who kill others for a living can in no way be considered "soft".
The Uchiha as a whole have not been the cause of all major problems. The acts of two, now three men if you include Sasuke have been the cause. And guess what, the acts of two other men, Itachi and Shusui, have been the solution of many problems.
This clan, just like any clan, has both great capacity for fucking things up, and great capacity for fixing things and making them right. Tobirama however only saw what they were capable of destroying, not what they were capable of building.
Fact is, the Uchiha are no different than any other people as they are emotional. The difference however, is that their emotions awaken eye powers.
Tobirama feared the Uchiha for their power. Despite all his bitching, Madara was the only one he knew who turned out evil, the rest were following orders for all the "wrong" they did prior to the Konoha's birth.
This hatred he speaks so much of, apparently was squashed when Konoha started. The Uchiha took steps to limit their emotions, and in the past even created jutsu like Izanami to limit one anothers powers. And in the end, they forsaked Madara and bowed down to Hashirama.
So Tobirama simply chose to ignore all the steps they did to seperate themselves from the Madara's of their clan, and still treated them like shit. So much for Senju love
Itachi's choice to kill his clan and Danzo's choice to kill Sasuke had to be done. Itachi had no other choice, and Danzo was simply following the code of his village which had bent for Sasuke in the past.
Tobirama however, had people willing to do better, willing to be better, and he chose to do what he did out of fear and hate. He had choices, and chose one of the worst outcomes possible.
Also, Hashirama was a reasonable human and didn't do this, and he was the leader before Tobirama so that also disproves your point. The fact that he disapproved of his brothers methods is evidence of this.
To me this whole thing about the uchiha not being able to cope with loss is just another stupid ***pull. The author seems to have a thing for runing good ideas (see the QB for example).
The basic Idea was That the Senju were loving, open people, represented by theire ancestor the Sage's younger son, who tried to deal with the cruel life of ninjas with compassion and understanding, ultimatly aiming for world peace.
The Uchiha were people who didn't belive in peace through "love" and thought humans needed to be controlled by a higher power (the same conclusion Nagato came to).
This is an interesting conflict ( eventhough it has been used for storys quite alot, for example in the starwas movies).
What's happening in the Manga right now is Kishi avoiding this hole conflict. The Manga is rushed towards an "happy ending". This is quite sad since the conflict was build up nicely and now it is unsatisfyingly "resolved" by turning all the bad guys into good guys (happend to garaa,itachi, kabuto and the QB, is happening to Obito, Madara, Sasuke, all of the uchiha... even orichimaru suddendly seems to be a nice pal).... The only person who really made up his own ideals and could be described as seriously evil in this manga, was Danzo... He had his reasons, but it was his own decision to follow a path of power ad control.
This new perspectiv of the uchiha being unable to deal with theire strong bonds .... it only serves the purpose of taking away theire responsibility for theire actions, victimizing them... suddenly it's not individuals making personal decisions, NO! It's something in the brain, an ultra-compassion, turning into ultra-hatred. THe Naruto-universe has turned into a racist idea, where every charactertrade can be explaind through genetics, no action is born by free will, the clan of love, the clan of hatred (now the clan of super love), the uzumakis with theire long live, Madara reachig for his brothers eyes, against his will, cotrolled by the evil sharingan etc.... There are no hard decisions Naruto characters have to make, it might seem so sometimes, but it all boils down to fate and genetics. The story has lost all of it's edges/conflicts and has finaly mutated into the shallow shounen manga most people wanted to read
... it's a pitty.
Did Obtio's actions contribute to the massacre? Of course they did. But the fact remains people like Tobirama and Danzo hated the Uchiha clan. Hell, half of Danzo's power was reliant on the need for Sharigans. You don't think he wouldn't have acquired those without the Kyuubi attack?
The fact is, people like Tobirama and Danzo turned a situation that for the first time in years was looking good for the Uchiha in terms of them being good and living peacefully and turned it on it's head and made it worse. Then Madara and Obito simply destroyed any hope for peace with the Kyuubi attack.
Besides, Obitos version of those events is the only version we have right now. So unless we get another version which refutes Obitos story we have to accept it as the author telling us what was going on through Obito.
He was expecting a coup since Madara's will was shared by quite a few.
Judging from what Orochimaru said, Tobirama fanned those flames, meaning Madara's followers existed before the Uchiha's "discrimination".
After which Tobirama explains what he did, as in give them their job while setting someone to better watch over them.
He saw countless Uchihas go mad with power, but he tried to channel that power for the good of the village. I'm sure if Hyuugas had that power he would've done the exact, same thing.
Obito's words were meant to sway Sasuke to his side, hating Konoha for what they did, making Uchiha appear like a puppy kicked by a bad guy that was jealous and fearful of that power.
Or did you miss Sasuke resenting Konoha and being proud of his clan?
I think that, were Uchihas in the right, Itachi wouldn't so readily agree to kill all of them.
We also need to know what they meant for political power, I don't think other clans would agree for Uchihas not to be included or would find it suspicious, that means Uchihas had surely the same rights every other clan had, Senju included, with the addition of the Police force.
I just find it hard to sympatize too much with them when Gaara was sent assassins after him by his own father since he was six
If so, why then Tobirama had an Uchiha in his team? Why Uchihas were admitted into ANBU? Why Uchihas were liked by the population and by the ninjas?
Because they were moved in the outskirts of the village ( which wasn't to isolate them, but to watch them ) ?
They were "isolated" only after the Kyuubi attack, and that was Obito's fault, not Tobirama's
Only few turn out like Madara ? It was stated that all Uchiha are bound to turn like that as long as they experience negative emotions. And sense people DIE, they are bound to turn out like Madara. Hashirama knew exactly that his brother was right, and the best he could say was "be a bit more respectful".
Itachi did have choice. To join his clan and help them defeat Konoha. But unlike the soft clan of his, he looked up for the greater good. I will explain about that below.Quote:
Do you have any idea how nonsensical what you're saying is ? How would Tobirama know they will rage and think of a coup ? And if he knew, is he going to just let it be and wait for them to endanger the leaf after his death and hope that one of them will exterminate the entire clan ? Do you realize how nonsensical that sounds ? He tried to use them for the good of both the village and themselves. He gave them a job they could excel at and by doing this help the village. But that didn't satisfy their softness. And another nonsensical think is, why would he wanna limit their power ? They're one village now. Limiting their power will do absolutely nothing to him or the village.Quote:
And yes they are as soft as marshmallow. I will explain that even down below along with the "greater good" topic.
And those two men are the same Uchihas that Tobirama saw countless of times. So it's not two men anymore. The soft thing will be explained below.Quote:
The two men caused all this problem. And if it wasn't for Itachi, the whole clan would have caused a disaster. So it's again, not just two or three men. Itachi had the same rainbow-ish view as you for a moment. And guess what ? His one and only failure.
Because one or two Uchiha's has the potential to bring good, doesn't mean that all of his clan can. I'm sure that had he stayed alive, Tobirama would have embraced Itachi and Shisui. Just like how Danzo and Sarutobi embraced Itachi. I'm not saying that exterminating the clan was the best choice, but the Uchiha's left no choice. It was the other way around of what you think, it's not the two men were evil, it's that two men were good.
This is where I'l explain everything I delayed. Where am I getting the idea that they take extreme measures ? That they are soft ? They are like all other people because they have emotion ? Why they are not ooking for the greater good ?Quote:
I will answer it all.
Do they take extreme measures ?
the do take the absolute extreme measures for the shittiest of causes. Because he was not at the top, because he lost to Hashirama, Madara became a mad man, and now trying to satisfy his own selfish desires. He does not think of the consequences for his selfish actions. Obito, because a girl he loved died, he does not care about this world anymore and is willing to kill innocent people and put everyone in a forever lasting illusion just for his selfish desires. And don't give me this whole "he was manipulated" garbage. He was given a solution, he had the choice to either accept it or decline. Many people had the same choice, but didn't fall for it because they aren't made of pancakes and marshmallows. Naruto had many of his loved ones die, but he didn't take this stupid solution. Neither did Nagato, Jiraya, Gaara, Yahiko and Itachi. Because they think about the greater good. It's like saying that this guy was manipulated to take drugs, because he found a solution in them. There is always better choices than drugs, if you take them, then it's you fault, not the one the offered them to you. Because even if it's not for him, it was bound to happen to you eventually.
And the clan, because they weren't at the top, they planned a coup, without thinking of the consequences it will bring. They didn't think that many people will die and that other villages would attack Konoha in the state of chaos the war would put it in. They didn't think about how their selfish actions will lead to the destruction of the leaf that took a lot of effort to build. No, none of that, it's all for their own selfish desire for power.
Sasuke, instead of making his brother proud and protect the village. He took everything his brother suffered and died for and shit on it. All to satisfy himself.
They are no different from any other people ? And they aren't soft ? Let's see :
Nagato had suffered about twice as much as what any Uchiha suffered. Did he become a mad man or an avenger ? No. I don't see him running after Danzo for revenge. Why not ? Because he doesn't go for his own selfish desires, his eyes are on something much greater. Even Naruto knew that, he knew that even though he was going about it differently, in his heart he truly wished for peace. An all because he wasn't mad of Teletubbies.
Naruto suffered just as much. Did he became a mad man or an avenger ? No. He forgave the man who killed both his masters, friends and destroyed his village. Why ? Because like Nagato his eyes are on something greater. He think not about himself, but about the good for everyone (even though his methods are childish.)
Itachi suffered insanely, and he was softest of the Uchiha. But because he was a bright and a wise man, he knew that everything must be done to protect the village. Even after he suffered that much (twice as Sasuke at least), he never hated his village, it Kages, or the villagers. Because he isn't a selfish man like all his clan.
and there are many more examples.
Tobirama like Itachi, Raikage and every reasonable Shinobi. Did what he had to do, not what he or others like him to do.
Tobirama also didn't have choice either. And again Itachi did. But the clan was not willing to do better, they wanted to take the lead. As long as it's not their clan, they don't give a shit about what happens to everyone else. The Senjus were different, they thought about the village and it's people, not their clan.Quote:
I should change that into "reasonable shinobis". Reasonable humans do isolate someone with a deadly contagious disease. Not always, do they do that, but it's logical if they want to avoid a greater loss. Mentally ill people are completely different from the Uchihas. They were born like that, therapy will not stop something natural from occurring. It's there fate, one way or another, they will turn. Which is why he saw countless people turn like that.Quote:
Hashirama didn't do anything at all to stop him. Even though he was the Hokage and could do it. But he didn't, and he had nothing to say against Tobirama's believe. And Hashirama wasn't a reasonable man, he was the same type as the one Itachi talked about, a man that lives in a fantasy world.
I'm not siding with Tobirama, but not with the Uchiha either. Both parties took extreme measures. Only difference is, Tobira did it for the greater good, while th Uchiha did it for themselves.
Last edited by KingOfNight; February 08, 2013 at 11:12 AM.
Another thing that annoys me about Tobirama's excuse for bias is that it's blamed on the history against the Uchiha that his family/clan experienced. Hiruzen experienced this through hearsay and knowledge he would gain by being close to the first and second. He knew everything about the rivalry and still: he and the Uchiha were allies. He respected them not because it was the right thing to do, but because they earned it by fighting alongside him in whatever situation.
It was at this point that anti Senju and anti Uchiha sentiments on both sides would've been at it's lowest. And Hiruzen grew up during the era of the Senju, yet he didn't skew his opinion to consider the Uchiha as an evil, cursed clan. No, he considered them Konohagakure civilians just like every other clan. I guess what I'm getting at is it was his faith in the clan that kept any attempt at a coup at bay.
First, I think your solution is worst than Tobirama and none of them will accept its implementation, especially coming from a Senju. Second, you completely ignore Tobirama's statement that he tried to channel the power, but they kill each others ( which is the same thing Itachi said). Third, most of you are all wrong and biased in your opinion. The reason is this:
It is true that Tobirama placed them in the same complex, but the following remain true:
1. They have their freedom to do anything they wanted
2. They have control of the military police, and they could use it to be acknowledge by anyone in the village
3. They can enter the academy and become shinobi like anyone else
Thus, I don't see any isolation from power. The rule is that one has to be acknowledge before becoming Hokage. Moreover, you don't become Hokage because you are powerful, but because you have shown to be an asset to the Village. This is the reason Hashimara was followed by the Uchiha who founded Konoha. They knew how Madara ascended to power, and they knew how and where he would lead them if he becomes Hokage. The truth if that while the Senju can channel their power to bring peace, Uchiha can be powerful only on the battlefield were hatred is being fueled. Their leader have to be powerful and this mean a lot of war, death, etc.
Even, your solution is exactly what was going on. The fact that Itachi was praised by Konoha is that he could control his power. Then, rather than sealing the others, they put them under surveillance. This is what is done in reality. If someone is suspicious, you keep him watched, and if you have a clue, you arrest him. In the Uchiha case, even though they were found guilty, negotiation occurred.
With no offense, your solution is unrealistic. If someone suspect me and place me under surveillance, since I am a good person, he will find nothing, then stop the surveillance. In Uchiha's case, there were evidence that some people were working with Madara. There were also evidence that they have issues with there power, and that they couldn't be mixed with others. Then they proved that Tobirama was right by causing a coup d'etat. Sasuke and Obito are evidence that you should not expose an Uchiha to a battlefield.
---------- Post added at 08:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 AM ----------
This is shortsighted and flat out wrong. It'd be like saying Tobirama isn't a real Senju because he can't use Mokuton. Not every Uchiha could use the Sharingan, let alone aquire MS. What makes you an Uchiha is your blood. Your family. Your pride. None of this is dependant on the Sharingan. The Uchiha were willing to give up their most prized and posession: love and friendship, all for the sake of not losing control and hurting those around them.Originally Posted by so6pww
If they're willing to give up the most important thing to them in this world JUST to be good people, why should I believe they wouldn't give up the thing that's turning them bad in the first place. Not to mention, it's not the Sharingan that makes them evil: it's the loss of love that distorts their chakra when the power erupts full force. I'm saying subdue the chakra that changes them. Not the Sharingan itself.
It would be the same as sealing away Kurama's mind while taking his chakra for yourself. You get all the positive aspects and none of the negative.
Pay attention. The special chakra creates the Sharingan, yes. But the special chakra also continues to grow and grow with greater emotion. You prevent that greater chakra from growing, and the Sharingan will never reach that level of no return. Once again I point you to the Kurama explanation. His power can be used without him taking control. That's by keeping too much of his chakra from distorting your mind.
As for whether the Uchiha would allow this to happen, I think some would, and some won't. This is why I said it will weed out those willing to change for the greater good, and those that aren't. Proof that some are willing to change is the fact that the ENTIRE clan chose Hashirama over Madara. And proof that the ENTIRE clan chose to seal away their emotions to avoid being taken control of by their power. They've already taken multiple steps to avoid tragedy at their own hand.
The only way you could believe otherwise is if you ignore what was stated.
This is inaccurate. Itachi was praised by Konoha because he placed nothing above his patriotism, and had Kage-level intellect at the age of 7. He lived for Konohagakure alone. Not because he could control his Uchiha powers. This was stated nowhere. There's also no instance where "they were found guilty". You keep lumping the entire clan with the Uchiha who were not in on the coup. Likewise, no negotiation occured. The instant Itachi came to Sarutobi with proof of the coup they IMMEDIATELY chose to annihilate them. Well, Sarutobi didn't. He wanted to buy time.Quote:
Danzou didn't meet with Fugaku. Shisui tried to use Genjutsu to force them to change, but Danzou took his eye and forbade it. He wanted the coup to be attempted so that they'd have an excuse to kill them all. If any negotiations were made it was between Itachi, Shisui, and the rest of the Uchiha. They didn't need to hear from other Uchiha. They needed to hear from the Hokage. This never happened.
If the Hyuuga were put on the outskirts of the clan to be kept away from politics, it'd be the same. If the place they were given was an old prison, it'd be the same. It's not the same. And the Uchiha were respected... by the civilians. Not by the leader of the village or his cohorts. And that's all that matters, because they're the ones who make the decisions.Quote:
Infact, the Uchiha's respect gained from civilians could even be a stretch, as EVERYONE hates the police unless they need them at any given moment. Those with power are hated. Those with power are also corrupted.
I don't think you understand the difference between suspecting someone and letting it go once you have proof they're innocent... and suspecting someone because of what their ancestor did and never letting it go. We're talking about generations of persecution. Years.Quote:
Secondly, they proved Tobirama right only thanks to him causing events that lead to a coup. If he believed a coup was possible he should've used my better choices rather than leaving them REASON to plan a coup.
I don't believe you read a single thing I wrote, because my choices all result in lack of bloodshed, respect of both sides, honesty, and compromise. Tobirama's choices all were based on bias and fear.Quote:
Both are realistic, but only one choice was guaranteed to result in a coup: Tobirama's. You don't have to agree with my choices, but you do have to accept that I'm right. Instead of letting the Uchiha's cursed chakra push them toward a coup, he should've given them the tools to focus and control that unruly chakra. Instead he let them keep it becuase "guard dogs are more effective when they're angry".
I don't think he's a bad Hokage. He was a genius and he had that "do what needs to be done no matter what" mentality that is needed in his position. He had the resolve to make tough decisions. I respect this wholeheartedly.
He didn't however have the sense to think objectively, OR the foresight to stop and consider other opportunities. And it started something that his predecessors would have to deal with. He dropped the ball.
These Uchiha's that founded Konoha wanted peace. They even ousted their leader they wanted it so bad. Not to mention, they knew they had a problem, and took steps to solve it by sealing off their emotions. Why would they go through all this trouble if they just wanted to fight the Senju again? That makes zero sense. They were changing, and Tobirama ignored that because he carried too much hate for them.
As for the Raikage, his method was absolutely flawed. He wanted to kill two perfect jinchuriki just to delay the inevitable instead of trusting in their power to win the war they were already fighting. Like Danzo, all he was doing was destroying assests instead of trying to reason and find an alternative solution.
The problem with your thinking and Tobirama's is you fail to realize you have options, options other than murdering people and isolating them by shifting them away from the things they deserve and need.
fed the problem he was trying to quell.
The fact is, he let his hatred blind him. This much is obvious. He claims the Uchiha have a problem with hatred, and yet, he put them in a position where they will be hated naturally as no one likes the police. Funny how that worked out.
And why would he want to limit their power? So his own decisions couldn't be questioned, and so the Senju clan could control the village with their ideas.
It was only after years of all the bullshit they had to put up with did they plan on rebelling. If they were truly assholes and "soft" like you claim, they would have said someone other than Tobirama and Hiruzen should have been Hokage, and they would have rebelled much sooner than they did. But it took 60+ years of ostracizing, spying, and the finally the Kyuubi attack for them to make a move.
Madara was a warrior who wanted to prove his worth and wanted what was rightfully his. He is the exception.
Obito had suffered both physical and mental trauma, and was then heavily manipulated by Madara after being isolated in a cave. Psychological and environmental factors played into why he did what he did. And he was given no such choice, Madara wouldn't allow him to leave when he wanted to despite the fact he was more than capable of letting him go.
And let's go down your list of people who aren't soft, because this is absurd.
Naruto: How many times did he give into the Kyuubi's hate and allow him to take over? There is no softer person in the manga than him by your standards. He had to be saved my Tenzo and Kakashi on multiple occasions and nearly destroyed his village when fighting Pain if not for his father. So don't even go there.
Nagato: Where do I start. Hanzo was responsible for his pain. So what did he do when he took over the village. Killed every man woman and child related to him. Innocent people, anyone who knew he was killed. He then wanted to give the world a super weapon so they could kill each other in mass quantities to end wars. Are you serious? He then developed a God complex and lost all faith in humanity, and yet did a 180 because Naruto said a few words to him. Is that not taking extreme measures and being soft? Don't be a hypocrite.
Gaara: Was a homicidal maniac for years until he, again, was turned to the "good" side by Naruto. What is not soft about his changing his entire being for a few words?
Jiraiya: Instead of taking care of his God Son he traveled the world looking to take revenge on his teammate while also hitting brothels. Why would he keep chasing Orochimaru when he had more important things to worry about?
The fact is, none of these characters are actually soft, they are human, as are the Uchiha. You criticize the Uchiha for taking extreme measures, and yet Danzo, Hanzo, Nagato, Orochimaru, Gaara's father, The Raikage, etc etc all have taken extreme measures at one time or another. And they either had to, or felt they had to based on the situation.
You obviously can't fathom that a situation can force someone to make an extreme decision. The Uchiha Clan as a whole, are not extreme people despite what you may think.
And Itachi didn't hate his village but he didn't love it either, he simply didn't want to see people suffer. Not to mention, he too was manipulated by Danzo.
And your second paragraph is a joke. They ousted their own clan leader for peace at one point. You are straight up ignoring facts here. And the Senju cared about the village so long as it didn't include the Uchiha. Or rather that is how Tobirama thought. I could lump all the other Senju aside from Hashirama into that but I don't stereotype and generalize like you seem to do.
Hashirama was dead when Tobirama was Hokage so Idk what you are going on here. And Hashirama wasn't living in a fantasy world, HE CREATED PEACE. That was very real.
The greater good is supposed to encompass everyone, and people without foresight shouldn't speak of the "greater good". Because thus far, all of Tobirama's decision have been shit and have led to nothing but extreme violence, more hatred, and totally chaos.
He has done nothing for the "greater good" as far as I am concerned. All he did was weaken Konoha and give it more enemies.
And I think obito lied about that one.
Because at that time, there's no uchiha capable enough to hold a position to the konoha's government. The uchiha doesn't have a better candidate to become a hokage at tovirama's time.
Or maybe what you want is, if the hokage is a senju, the village should appoint an uchiha as a vice hokage because they're a co-founders like the senju? You forgetting something that the konoha is a democracy village. Even if the hokage is being appointed by the fuedal lords, but still, the hokage should have the full votes/supportof the entire jonins of the village.