Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

[Rikudou King]

No one said he wasn't prejudiced, he was a downright bastard.
Doesn't mean everything he did was part of a plan to kill Uchihas, that came later with Danzou

Him being prejudice means that while he may not have actively attempted to kill them, he had no illusions about what the end result would be. He pretty much told Sasuke as much.

Tobirama lived all his life fighting against Uchihas, meaning, as he said, he saw countless Uchihas go mad when they lost someone they loved.
Also, as Oro said, he seemed pretty scarred by Madara.
I think its best to see the full story behind before making wild assumptions, considering next chapter its Hashirama's turn to talk.

I agree they didn't deserve to be wiped out, but that was not a Konoha's act, it was all Danzou, and Itachi agreed with it, like Hiruzen said, taking it as a personal mission.
And let's not forget Obito, which clearly had some connection with Danzou, if we go by the comment he made when they saw each other:

"last time we met, it was during the Uchiha massacre"

But isn't that sort of reasoning flawed? Yeah, Tobirama spent most of his life fighting against them as an enemy, so of course he would see them reacting violently towards the Senju clan in retaliation. Why wouldn't they fight for revenge against actual enemies? When they actually became allies of the Senju and formed the village, there wasn't any sign that the clan losing somebody caused them to react negatively towards their fellow villagers.

Anyway, that's hardly unique to the Uchiha clan. We have see numerous characters react similarly to the lost of someone they cared about. Heck, before Gaara gave his war speech, the different villages were ready to kill each other for what had been done in the past. We don't have anything indicating that the Uchiha's lost would affect them more then any other ninja losing someone. And Madara really doesn't fit his claims. Izuna didn't die til after Madara had gained EMS, so any evilness of Madara was not because he lost his brother.

[GyoMasta]

Most of the solutions\opinions here are rather creative, but I doubt any of us experienced war so we can't say for sure if what Tobirama did was wrong. Hashirama also knew that the Uchiha were a cursed clan and can see where his brother is coming from. While he didn't like his brothers way of doing thinks, he clearly didn't go against it because he knew it was for the better, and even knew how the Uchiha are. This can be seen from his regretful face here.

There is also Itachi, he believed the same thing as Danzo and Tobirama, but people are not judging him because he's their main man. He took the same solution and found that killing his clan was the best option for sake of the village.


It was their softness and Teletubbies-ness that constantly made them cause almost all major problems.

They take extreme measures for the simplest of causes, that's why they were feared. It's different from racism. Tobirama and Danzo didn't hate the Uchiha because of who they are, they feared the Uchiha because of what they turn to be. It's like calling someone racist for isolating someone with a deadly contagious disease.

As some else pointed out already, what Tobirama did was wrong plain and simple. HE DID NOT LET GO OF HIS OLD MENTALITY. Taht's why he did what he did, not because Uchiha were a potential threat to the village. Uchiha built the village. konoha History 101. Tobirama did hate did uchiha, no doubt about it. Uchiha aren't a deadly disease litterally nor figuratively. That's listening to an American talking shit about a Soviet and vice-cersa.


Itachi came to the conclusion that he no longer had the choice but to destroy his Clan not because they were evil psychopaths. Re-read the chapters: he was seriously intelligent and really tormented by the the whole situation because he clearly understood what Nidaime did was set up an environment of "face Senju wins tails Uchiha lose" against the uchiha and that by doing what, for the country, became necessity since all better options had been sabotaged and destroyed by Nidaime and the Elders and that he was playing in their hands against his own blood. He understood, just like Orochimaru understood, that had Nidaime not pushed them out of government, stuck them in the police and started repressions all those things wouldn't have happen. Tobi explained it well: Itachi didn't do it out of hatred for his clan but because the game was flawed against his peopel to begin with, with Senu using the country's sake as a shield.


And Softness and teletubbieness... cut the crap, dude, that's ridiculous. No joke.

He wasn't stupid, he used Uchihas for a thing he knew they were the best at, fully expecting that they would rebel.
As for their abuse of power, I think that was a proof of trust:
can Uchihas be trusted? Until the coup, everyone can say they could. And his "open hatred" couldn't be open, considering he had an Uchiha in his team.


He didn't isolate them, the isolation began after the Kyuubi incident.


Tobirama lived all his life fighting against Uchihas, meaning, as he said, he saw countless Uchihas go mad when they lost someone they loved.
Also, as Oro said, he seemed pretty scarred by Madara.


---------- Post added at 02:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 AM ----------

I would agree with you if Tobirama fought, lived and met only Madara, but let's not forget he saw, met and fought countless Uchihas in the battlefield and saw a countless number of them go insane.

They don't talk about Madara going crazy, they talk about Uchihas going crazy


So we can assume Kagami and that Akimichi were a 2 man team?


And then why both Obito and Tobirama claimed there were quite a few Uchihas that took Madara's ideals as their own?
And how do we know what happened if no one showed it to us?
How do we know the full story behind it if the manga itself hasn't shown us everything?

And no, they weren't in a position of force before Tobirama, the village had to chose a leader and they chose Hashirama.
The rest of the clans were equals, be it Senjus, Uchihas, Hyuugas or Naras.



I think you are going quite ahead of yourself, considering we still have to know Hashirama and Madara's part of the story.

As for this being part of Tobirama's master plan... I find it unlikely, if an absolute fanfiction.
I also suggest you reread Obito's tale to Sasuke and last chapter, Uchihas weren't spineless maggots, they were a proud clan of proud warrior, would they accept to be treated like any other clan?
I don't think so

Tobirama put the Uchiha in a place/role he knew they would be the best at? The Uchiha excell at everything, dude. Tobirama just wanted to locked them up because he distrusts them for having being the long-time enemies of his clan. You just have to read what he said to understad that.

And no, the isolation/repression did not begin after the kyuubi attack, it only increased. Tobirama DID isolate them, re-read what Orochimaru said and the flashback image of the surrounding, you seem to have forgotten a bit there. It clearly support what Tobi said in such matter:

Uchihas were part of the government before Nidaime's actions as were Senjus. The Uchiha and Senju formed Konoha as a 2-clan Alliance to begin with, meaning Hashirama and madara were the heads, seconded by their clans'S repespective higher-ups. Then they made other clans joing their organization to start the 1 village per country system: at that time it was ruled by both Madaara and Hashirama with a Elder/High Council made of Senjus AND Uchihas. Then Hashirama is elected big boss and Madara does his thing: Uchihas are part of the government. After taht, Nidaime comes to power AND TOSSED UCHIHA OUT OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, PUT THEM INTO THE POLICE, ISOLATED AND SURVEILLANCED BY THE ANBU:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v42/c386/10.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/2.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/4.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/5.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/6.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/7.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/8.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/12.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/13.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c590/6.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c619/14.html

Teah, Tobirama repressed and isolated them, did put them out of government, did it because of his olde views while Uchiha did join the Senju and even voted for Hashirama, Nidaime did set the situation up that led to Madara sympathizers to emerge because they understood what was going on and what it was leading to, the situation kept going wosre and teh uchiha sucked it up until the Kyuubi's attack when the Elders increased teh repression to a point they could take it anymore. Written black on white. No fanfiction, that's politics and warfare arts.

And could Tobirama see that could be a threat to the village from the Uchiha? All he knew came from the Endless War Era, whne EVERY CLAN WAS AT WAR AGAINST EACH OTHER and were trying to get the upper hand. Senju hated and warred against Uchiha, Uchiha hated and warred against Senju. They used their respective powers and skills against the other in such context. So Nidaime saying they were just going insane and controllable... -_-. Their doujutsu surely activates under pressured situation but it doesn't mean they have a congenital mental disorder, they're not Tenbi-no-Juugo's clan, they're not jinchuuriki. I didn't see Sasuke nor obito going berserk when they were activated their Sharingan: Sasuke defended himself and attacked Itachi who killed his clan, later reactivated it when pressure by super-fast Haku. Obito activated his after his eyes were hurting and that Iwagakure Jounin was about to kill Kakashi.

Try to see the situation objectively:
you know the clan has an inherited mental disorder, you know a good bit of fanatics have Madara's ideals, and you know that, should another Madara arise the village would risk utter annihilation.
What he does?
He gives the Uchihas a position of trust, but he also make it so they can be eliminated should something arise.

Did Tobirama killed the Uchihas? No.
Did the village discriminate the Uchihas? No, otherwise you wouldn't have people going on about how great Uchihas are, considering also the parents never warned their kids not to befriend Sasuke like they did with Naruto.
Did the village did anything hurtful against Uchihas before the Kyuubi accident? We don't know, but considering they were "segregated" after the incident I don't think so.
Were Uchihas killed for no reason? They planned to overthrow the Hokage, before that we don't have mentions of anyone mistreating Uchihas.
Was Tobirama right in the end? Apparently.
Was Tobirama justified in what he did, or without faults? Hell no, he has a huge responsibility, but it wasn't some master plan, but simply his mistake.
Just like creating Edo Tensei.

What objectivity. What you call objectivity is bias in Senju's favor. Uchiha don't have an inherent mental disorder. What is known about them is that their all-excelling shinobi clan, that with their Senju rival they're known as teh strongest and most skilled clan in history, that they were the co-founders of konoha, they helped bring many clans together for a greater project, they joined hands with their former enemy to bring what tehir Rikudou ancestor worked towards: worldwide peace. Nothing is mentioned about Sarutobi seeing Uchiha go mad and stuff. that'S Tobirama's words gainst what the rest says about the Uchiha Clan: the best of konoha, disciplined and dedicated to duty, outstanding shinobi, peacekeepers.

I'll repeat it as many have already repeated elsewhere: EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE UCHIHA CLAN MEMBERS TURNED THEIR BACK ON MADARA WHEN: 1) HE, alone, wanted the war against Senju to continue and reject the truce proposed by Hashirama; 2) heproposed himself for Shodai Hokage, but ALL AND EACH UCHIHA VOTED AGAINST HIM FOR HASHIRAMA, 3) When he attacked Hashirama and/or Konoha .
The Uchiha were against Madara's anti-peace actions ever since Hashirama proposed an armistice. Everybody could see and mention it. When it was time to vote every other clan could see the Uchiha backinkg Hashirama up in front of their own Clan leader Madara. Evryone could see them being in opposition to Madara's actions.

So pleace, tell me, where were your juugo wannabes back then? Where were they ever since? You're talking about lunatics following Madara: they weren,t lunatics and they join Madara,s opinion on not trusting the Senju and not accepting to be tossed out of government affairs as they used to be until Nidaime pushed them away and the ongoing represions started. I'm pretty sure it must not be hard for Sharingan users to spot ANBU spying on them at night:

*Uchiha X: "Hey, Setsuna, look! Chakra sources in the trees, ethy're people spying on us."
Setsuna: "Oh, let me see... (Sharingan zoom in, clearing image) What the! They're Hokage secret Forces, the ANBU! Why would... Tobirama, kisama!"

They weren't lunatics, they were the ones who said out loud what all other uchiha clearly knew: a Senju double-crossed them into peace to beat them later on. And that'S exactly how it went. Tobi just quicken the unstoppable end of their kind.

You said it, "for all we know".
For all we know Tobirama had a pretty good reason to suspect Uchihas, which will known during Hashirama/Madara flashbacks, if Kishi wants to expand the "Uchiha are cursed" thing.

As for his stunt, would you blindly trust the same force that followed Madara during his time ( because, during Tobirama's time, Uchihas were the same clan that fought with Senjus all this time ), and that you know can turn on you whenever they want, having the means and the power to do that?
And he himself tried to create a situation when Uchihas would earn back that trust.
It backfired, true, but it wasn't a plan to massacre them all.

Madara died and Hashirama did too, the difference was that, while Hashirama was one of a kind, the Uchiha's curse could pretty well spurr another Madara.
Fortunately for Konoha, Itachi was an insightful and wise kid

Nope, for all we know nidaime should have taken his bigotry out of his head and worked for true peace like his brother and the Uchiha did, no good reason. Reading you is liek listenign to the american government about the "War on terror" BS or the pseudo-justification for the Vietnam War. The Uchiah had MASSIVE ZERO intention on attacking the Senju, even less the Village tehy founded with them. You're just eating Senju Tobirama's "a pimp got to do what a pimp got to do" talk despite evidence of the contrary and call others un-objective or fanfiction driven.

And earn back what trust? For who? Tobirama? he never trusted them to begin with, what can't you understand. The villagers? They all saw Madara was a loner, not a single Uchiha was on his side, THEY WERE TO BUSY WORKING FOR PEACE AND THE ALLIANCE TO MAINTAIN! Do we read the same manga here? I'm reading Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto, from chapter 1 to the 619th, what are you reading?

How many times and in what language does it have to be said: Tobirama was a paranoiac who could see what everyone else saw, that teh Uchiah weren't Juugo/Kaguya wannabes planning to turn on the Alliance and Konohagakure. The Madara followers emerged AFTER madar's appearent death and Nidaime Hokage starting repression on them. Tobirama caused those to be, 1000000000% his fault. Had he tried nothing against uchiha, none of this would have happen, teh UChiah would still be there and Orochimaru's Suna/Oto forces woul have met an uber-super-dooper ass-whooping 3 years ago with the Uchiha fighting too.

http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v43/c399/13.html
http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v43/c399/14.html

Well, if you read the page I posted and the next one then according to Obito it was like this:

1. Konoha gets founded by Uchiha and Senju.
2. Madara rebels, Uchihas turn their back on him and he gets killed by Hashirama.
3. Police Force gets astablished to get the Uchihas out of Government Affairs and to surveillance them.
4. Uchiha are displeased but for numerous years they accept their fate as the Senjus dogs.
5. Kyuubi Attacks, Uchihas get quarantined even more.
6. Uchihas have enough and plan to rebel, leading to the massacre.

Applause, wisdom and facts as I like them. Shorther than I did and it says it all.

Why should we believe Obito is telling the truth and not same made-up story? He is outright lying when he says no Uchiha were behind the Kyuubi incident. He's just telling the story this way so that Sasuke remains at his side. This is the reason why Itachi never told Sasuke the complete story himself, believing Sasuke will re-establish the Uchiha pride one day and not bring down the village.
To be fair, it was just Madara's paranoiac and power-obsessed perception of the story that the Uchiha were getting discriminated. That's the reason the Uchiha didn't follow him in the first place, him acting like nothing more than a sore loser against Hashirama's rule.
Obito is just telling us how Madara views this all. Madara, through his pupil, Obito, is the direct reason the massacre happened, since he held a grudge for his own clansmen.

Why believe Tobirama? Did Tobi lied when he said Kyuubi was a natural disater, but all the rest keeps being proven to be the truth. He just surrounded a lie by truth (the best way to lie) to go Sasuke trust. But all the rest was confirmed by Danzou, Itachi, Kabuto, Orochimaru, Sarutobi and even Tobirama for certain things. The rest of what he says just sustain the idea that teh old grudge against Uchiha lead his path when dealing with them.

Surely Uchiha have deep love for their clansmen, but were a danger for themselves of the village, surely no. That's Tobirama's crap. That's ethnocentric views from a Senju about Uchiha. Sasuke asked him what are the Uchiha for Tobirama, and Tobirama answered as such.

Madara shouldn't have been the only one to lose his brother during the old times, a bigot would be gone.Tobiram inventing ANBU: good; Founding Ninja Academy: Good; Spitting on uchiha: wrong, deep.
For the rest, there's masterkard. (I replaced the "c" with a "k" for copyright purposes).

Tobirama talking shit about Uchiha is lika a hyena or a tiger hating on a lion.

[LnDRash]

To keep them out to government affairs? But does the police force can be considered as another branch of konoha's government?

The police enforces the governments will, they take orders, they are the governments watch dogs, but when it comes to village decisions they don't have anything to say.

And no.

A Co-Hokage wouldn't be necessary, but look here: http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v62/c590/13.html

The Hokage is not alone. Itachi was reporting not only to Hiruzen, but also to the village elders and Danzou... all of them hold some sort of politic power the Hokage isn't entitled to ignore.

Those are the positions Tobirama didn't want to be occupied by Uchihas, even though as co-founders they rightfully deserved those positions... or can you spot a fifth seat which would usually be occupied by Fugaku? Nope? Thought so...

[Uchiha_Blood]

But isn't that sort of reasoning flawed? Yeah, Tobirama spent most of his life fighting against them as an enemy, so of course he would see them reacting violently towards the Senju clan in retaliation. Why wouldn't they fight for revenge against actual enemies? When they actually became allies of the Senju and formed the village, there wasn't any sign that the clan losing somebody caused them to react negatively towards their fellow villagers.

Anyway, that's hardly unique to the Uchiha clan. We have see numerous characters react similarly to the lost of someone they cared about. Heck, before Gaara gave his war speech, the different villages were ready to kill each other for what had been done in the past. We don't have anything indicating that the Uchiha's lost would affect them more then any other ninja losing someone. And Madara really doesn't fit his claims. Izuna didn't die til after Madara had gained EMS, so any evilness of Madara was not because he lost his brother.

I don't think he is that stupid, of course he would know the difference between war time and peace time.

The problem with Uchihas is that they are hardly "other numerous characters", they are descendants from Rikudou Sennin and have access to the most broken Gekkei Kekkai in existence.
Tobirama's paranoic idea was that another Madara would rise, combining raw talent with untameable hate.
Guess who was born, like, 20 years later? Itachi and Sasuke, two who have ( had in Itachi's case ) the potential to be another Madara. And I don't see Tobirama believing in the fate that let Sasuke and Naruto met and fight

Tobirama put the Uchiha in a place/role he knew they would be the best at? The Uchiha excell at everything, dude. Tobirama just wanted to locked them up because he distrusts them for having being the long-time enemies of his clan. You just have to read what he said to understad that.

And no, the isolation/repression did not begin after the kyuubi attack, it only increased. Tobirama DID isolate them, re-read what Orochimaru said and the flashback image of the surrounding, you seem to have forgotten a bit there. It clearly support what Tobi said in such matter:

Uchihas were part of the government before Nidaime's actions as were Senjus. The Uchiha and Senju formed Konoha as a 2-clan Alliance to begin with, meaning Hashirama and madara were the heads, seconded by their clans'S repespective higher-ups. Then they made other clans joing their organization to start the 1 village per country system: at that time it was ruled by both Madaara and Hashirama with a Elder/High Council made of Senjus AND Uchihas. Then Hashirama is elected big boss and Madara does his thing: Uchihas are part of the government. After taht, Nidaime comes to power AND TOSSED UCHIHA OUT OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, PUT THEM INTO THE POLICE, ISOLATED AND SURVEILLANCED BY THE ANBU:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v42/c386/10.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/2.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/4.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/5.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/6.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/7.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/8.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/12.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v43/c399/13.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c590/6.html
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c619/14.html

Teah, Tobirama repressed and isolated them, did put them out of government, did it because of his olde views while Uchiha did join the Senju and even voted for Hashirama, Nidaime did set the situation up that led to Madara sympathizers to emerge because they understood what was going on and what it was leading to, the situation kept going wosre and teh uchiha sucked it up until the Kyuubi's attack when the Elders increased teh repression to a point they could take it anymore. Written black on white. No fanfiction, that's politics and warfare arts.

A lot of speculation on your parts, you assume there was a council made of Senjus and Uchiha, which is false, or at least not proven.
As it stands, Uchihas had the better standing in the entire village:
all other clans, Senju included, were equals, yet the Uchihas, together with their status, were the Police.

Also we know, from sources that are both more credible than Tobi and way more recent, that the loss of power happened in recent times, after the Kyuubi incident, that was pined on the Uchihas, because only a Sharingan could control Kyuubi that way through a genjutsu.
Guess what? Tobirama was long dead at the time.

What Tobirama did was have them watched, he didn't segregate them, he didn't discriminate them, he did nothing of the sort.
If he did, then why:
-did he allow an Uchiha to be on his bodyguard unit
-why didn't he kill them off, using Madara or someone else as a scapegoat like they did with Itachi
-why he allowed them to mingle with the village
-why didn't he forbid Uchihas to join ANBU ( a corp he founded )

You know who were discriminated? Naruto and Gaara.
Reread their childhood

And could Tobirama see that could be a threat to the village from the Uchiha? All he knew came from the Endless War Era, whne EVERY CLAN WAS AT WAR AGAINST EACH OTHER and were trying to get the upper hand. Senju hated and warred against Uchiha, Uchiha hated and warred against Senju. They used their respective powers and skills against the other in such context. So Nidaime saying they were just going insane and controllable... -_-. Their doujutsu surely activates under pressured situation but it doesn't mean they have a congenital mental disorder, they're not Tenbi-no-Juugo's clan, they're not jinchuuriki. I didn't see Sasuke nor obito going berserk when they were activated their Sharingan: Sasuke defended himself and attacked Itachi who killed his clan, later reactivated it when pressure by super-fast Haku. Obito activated his after his eyes were hurting and that Iwagakure Jounin was about to kill Kakashi.

What objectivity. What you call objectivity is bias in Senju's favor. Uchiha don't have an inherent mental disorder. What is known about them is that their all-excelling shinobi clan, that with their Senju rival they're known as teh strongest and most skilled clan in history, that they were the co-founders of konoha, they helped bring many clans together for a greater project, they joined hands with their former enemy to bring what tehir Rikudou ancestor worked towards: worldwide peace. Nothing is mentioned about Sarutobi seeing Uchiha go mad and stuff. that'S Tobirama's words gainst what the rest says about the Uchiha Clan: the best of konoha, disciplined and dedicated to duty, outstanding shinobi, peacekeepers.

I actually believe Tobirama and Hashirama's words over yours, no offence.
If two of the ones that knows everything, according to Kishi, said that Uchihas have a mental disorder, then for me they have a mental disorder.

And I don't think Tobirama or anyone else was so stupid to not distinguish between war time and peace time.
Madara followers existed even before Tobirama's "segregation".
Unless you believe grave-robbing, eye stealing, murdering of parents, friends and brothers for power is a normal behaviour

I'll repeat it as many have already repeated elsewhere: EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE UCHIHA CLAN MEMBERS TURNED THEIR BACK ON MADARA WHEN: 1) HE, alone, wanted the war against Senju to continue and reject the truce proposed by Hashirama; 2) heproposed himself for Shodai Hokage, but ALL AND EACH UCHIHA VOTED AGAINST HIM FOR HASHIRAMA, 3) When he attacked Hashirama and/or Konoha .
The Uchiha were against Madara's anti-peace actions ever since Hashirama proposed an armistice. Everybody could see and mention it. When it was time to vote every other clan could see the Uchiha backinkg Hashirama up in front of their own Clan leader Madara. Evryone could see them being in opposition to Madara's actions.

So pleace, tell me, where were your juugo wannabes back then? Where were they ever since? You're talking about lunatics following Madara: they weren,t lunatics and they join Madara,s opinion on not trusting the Senju and not accepting to be tossed out of government affairs as they used to be until Nidaime pushed them away and the ongoing represions started. I'm pretty sure it must not be hard for Sharingan users to spot ANBU spying on them at night:

*Uchiha X: "Hey, Setsuna, look! Chakra sources in the trees, ethy're people spying on us."
Setsuna: "Oh, let me see... (Sharingan zoom in, clearing image) What the! They're Hokage secret Forces, the ANBU! Why would... Tobirama, kisama!"

They weren't lunatics, they were the ones who said out loud what all other uchiha clearly knew: a Senju double-crossed them into peace to beat them later on. And that'S exactly how it went. Tobi just quicken the unstoppable end of their kind.

Infact what did Tobirama did next?
Grant them a priviliged position in the Village.
Does any other clan have such a special function? No.
Does any other clan have such power? No.

Even your hated Senjus are treated like every other clan.
If not, then why did Hiruzen wanted to chose between Minato and Orochimaru as his successor without considering Tsunade, a Senju?
Why he talked with so much respect about Itachi, an Uchiha, saying that he had, since he was a kid, the mentality of a Hokage?

Nope, for all we know nidaime should have taken his bigotry out of his head and worked for true peace like his brother and the Uchiha did, no good reason. Reading you is liek listenign to the american government about the "War on terror" BS or the pseudo-justification for the Vietnam War. The Uchiah had MASSIVE ZERO intention on attacking the Senju, even less the Village tehy founded with them. You're just eating Senju Tobirama's "a pimp got to do what a pimp got to do" talk despite evidence of the contrary and call others un-objective or fanfiction driven.

And earn back what trust? For who? Tobirama? he never trusted them to begin with, what can't you understand. The villagers? They all saw Madara was a loner, not a single Uchiha was on his side, THEY WERE TO BUSY WORKING FOR PEACE AND THE ALLIANCE TO MAINTAIN! Do we read the same manga here? I'm reading Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto, from chapter 1 to the 619th, what are you reading?

How many times and in what language does it have to be said: Tobirama was a paranoiac who could see what everyone else saw, that teh Uchiah weren't Juugo/Kaguya wannabes planning to turn on the Alliance and Konohagakure. The Madara followers emerged AFTER madar's appearent death and Nidaime Hokage starting repression on them. Tobirama caused those to be, 1000000000% his fault. Had he tried nothing against uchiha, none of this would have happen, teh UChiah would still be there and Orochimaru's Suna/Oto forces woul have met an uber-super-dooper ass-whooping 3 years ago with the Uchiha fighting too.

Why thank you

And yes, I believe I read Naruto. Why, in this entire manga we were said that Uchihas are cursed and have countless examples of it.
They aren't good, no matter what you may think, and neither you can prove it, considering 2 Uchihas are waging war against the world, the entire clan wanted to overrule the Hokage, basically destroying the village and they have an history of depravity excessive even for ninja standards.
Guess what side chose the only two sane members of their clan? That's right, the village.
No one forced Uchihas to become arrogant, no one forced them to disappear ( a side of the story I would like to know ) during the Kyuubi attack, no one forced Uchihas to plan a coup considering Hiruzen wanted a pacific resolution.
They have a sickness, plain and simple. It wasn't cured, and that led to what the Uchiha clan is today

Also are you that certain that Uchihas wouldn't have rebelled, if not for Tobirama?
What of the Kyuubi attack then?


---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------

Those are the positions Tobirama didn't want to be occupied by Uchihas, even though as co-founders they rightfully deserved those positions... or can you spot a fifth seat which would usually be occupied by Fugaku? Nope? Thought so...

Was Fugaku worthy of that position?
Just like the Hokage position, the advisors should be chosen by merits, and not by heritage imo.

[Hakuteiken]

Was Fugaku worthy of that position?
Just like the Hokage position, the advisors should be chosen by merits, and not by heritage imo.

Yeah, technically, now it comes down to receiving an automatic chair in the governing council just because the Uchiha were the co-founders.
On paper, the two clans agreed to end their eternal battles and come together. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure if the truce they signed included how the politic issues would be handled or by whom, is the better question to ask in this case.
As the Hokage, Tobirama had the right to appoint whoever he believed was fit for the job, instead of picking an Uchiha to buy faith from the clan. At least, he didn't fake such a thing. Considering how he deemed the clan's power as dangerous, he should have also considered that, but apparently, he didn't.

[ninjabot]

Was Fugaku worthy of that position?

I think so. He may have resorted to some drastic measures, but they were for the purpose of protecting his people. If you're gonna give Tobirama a pass, why not Fugaku?

Yeah, technically, now it comes down to receiving an automatic chair in the governing council just because the Uchiha were the co-founders.

It doesn't have to be simplified to that level. It could simply be similar to the UN. Like I said, a representative from each clan should be present so that every clan has a voice. There would be an Uchiha on the board not because they helped found the village, but because every clan needs a voice, not just the Senju.

[Hakuteiken]

It doesn't have to be simplified to that level. It could simply be similar to the UN. Like I said, a representative from each clan should be present so that every clan has a voice. There would be an Uchiha on the board not because they helped found the village, but because every clan needs a voice, not just the Senju.

And also, not every clan were voicing their opinions about political matters. It wasn't as if there were representatives from every other clan and the Uchiha were the only exception to that. We should be blaming the village system, then, not specifically a Hokage.

[GyoMasta]

I don't think he is that stupid, of course he would know the difference between war time and peace time.

The problem with Uchihas is that they are hardly "other numerous characters", they are descendants from Rikudou Sennin and have access to the most broken Gekkei Kekkai in existence.
Tobirama's paranoic idea was that another Madara would rise, combining raw talent with untameable hate.
Guess who was born, like, 20 years later? Itachi and Sasuke, two who have ( had in Itachi's case ) the potential to be another Madara. And I don't see Tobirama believing in the fate that let Sasuke and Naruto met and fight

Yeah right, of course. Itachi and Sasuke being born aound 20 years later? Nope, later. Itachi and Sasuke being potential Madara's on their own? Not even close a drunken Saturday evening. Itachi has nothing of madara's mentality and Sasuke was driven to the path he's in because of Tobirama, the Elders, Itachi and Tobi. Re-read the story.

Uchiha being raw talent with untameable hate? You may say I'm speculating, but your making things up and putting Tobirama on a pedestal. Did you read the story? Did you read the story? You don't don't look like you do. During the Sengoku Jidai, all clans were fighting each other with the hate that this brings. Hate was everywhere with everybody, Jiraiya talked about it, Yondaime talked about, Green Peace talked about it, the beatles sang about it. Once Hashirama proposed the truce, guess who accepted it and pushed towards it hard despite what Madara's warning or ill-will? Yes, yes, you can say it, you know it: THE ENTIRE UCHIHA CLAN MEMBERS! Yes, sir! Rewrite another book if you don't like it.

Kimimaro was raw talent, Orochimaru refined it. Haku was raw talent, refined by Zabuza. Uchiha natual geniuses who keep refining themselves.

Tobirama clearly responsible for for Naruto and Sasukes fight at The Valley of the End because he schemed against the Uchiha and the Elders maintained his policies, even hardening them. Did you forget Uzumaki Kushina and Uchiha Mikoto being friends, or did you forget it because Mikoto used her Sharingan on her to hide her untameable hatred?

And Tobirama is a long-term visionary, so I don't excuse what he did and think who was stupid enough not to see the OBVIOUS results of what he was doing. If you hit someone you need to be seriously stupid or arrogant thinking the other won't try to hit you back. Nidaime thought the Uchiha would "rebel" but didn't forsee ther protest when he planned on repressign them? Or what it would lead to with decades of such policies were them even to increase? I don't buy it.

A lot of speculation on your parts, you assume there was a council made of Senjus and Uchiha, which is false, or at least not proven.
As it stands, Uchihas had the better standing in the entire village:
all other clans, Senju included, were equals, yet the Uchihas, together with their status, were the Police.

Also we know, from sources that are both more credible than Tobi and way more recent, that the loss of power happened in recent times, after the Kyuubi incident, that was pined on the Uchihas, because only a Sharingan could control Kyuubi that way through a genjutsu.
Guess what? Tobirama was long dead at the time.

What Tobirama did was have them watched, he didn't segregate them, he didn't discriminate them, he did nothing of the sort.
If he did, then why:
-did he allow an Uchiha to be on his bodyguard unit
-why didn't he kill them off, using Madara or someone else as a scapegoat like they did with Itachi
-why he allowed them to mingle with the village
-why didn't he forbid Uchihas to join ANBU ( a corp he founded )

You know who were discriminated? Naruto and Gaara.
Reread their childhood

Of course I'm speculating, I'm Isay what the story told.

ANd I'm assuming, speculating that there was a council in which Uchiha and Senju were both present? Dude, did you not notice that every single major village we saw enough of had Elder/higher-ups Council? the only we didn,t see enough of among teh major countries is Iwagakure: Suna has its's own, Kumo had Elders by Raikage's saide, Kiri has Elders, Konoha has Elders. In Konoha, the elders are on Senju'S side. And did you forget the Uchiha and Senju built Konoha? That tehre was only 2 Clans to begin with? Do you they were all standing outside the building with Madara and Hashirama in alone discussing the affairs of their new Alliance? Do you really think that when Hashirama was elected there was nobody by his side, taht Madara and Uchiha were instantly pushed away because Hashirama became the big boss of the mountain? or do you thing Tobirama or Sarutobi invented the High Council idea and that there was none before? What is the ninja village government: Kage and Elders.

1-1= 0. x-1=0 >>x=0 +1 >> x= 1

Historywise: Uchiha are BEING OUTTEED of government (- 1) and thus are no longer part of government affairs (0). Not being part of government (aka 0) minus being tossed out of government affairs equals Uchiha being part of the government.

Tell me pal, how could the Uchiha managesd to be tossed out of government by Tobirama, as stated in the provided scans in my previous post, and how could Koharu say they'll be considered rebels if they want they political powers back, they weren,t part of the political power, of the government, which is the Elders Council, at the beginning? Tehy were part of teh government and Tobirama tossed them out, he didn't give them a position of power, they had a position of power since the very beginning of Konoha, the formation of teh Senju-Uchiha Alliance up until Tobirama retrograded them to guard dogs. i can't teach you how to read.

he did segragated, he did isolated them.. Why teh fuck would he have to put them under surveillance by the ANBU at the outskirt of the village around the prison and out of governmetn for? You're telling me the other clans were put in something similar. Cause last time I checked, between the truce and the upgrade in repressions after Kyuubi's attack, the Uchiha are 100% pro-peace.

And Tobirama isn't strong enough to kill the uchiah Clan by himself, it shouldn,t even be talked about. I bet my 3rd left nut that 13 year strong enough to beat the Uchiha in few hours at night without having a drop of blood or dirt on their clothes didn't appear that often in the course of history, just saying.

And no, no more credible source countradicted that there were isolation on Uchiha before Kyuubi,s attack and by Tobirama's hands:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c619/14.html

Tell me, please: how old is orochimaru? 53-54 years-old, 54, going by the Databook. Can we, AND THIS IS JUST "SPECULATION", assume that he spent quite a long part of his life in Konoha and knows really quite well how it looks, the architecture, the urbanism, the location of things, how to get in and out undetected, secret paths and stuff like that? Can we? Yes, we can. Then, tell me how exactly could 54-year-old Orochimaru, with flashback image evidence, coudl say, and I quote:

"YOU EVEN BUILT THEIR HEADQUARTERS IN A LOCATION THAT ONCE SERVED AS A PRISON... UNDER THE GUISE OF MAINTAINING THE PEACE YOU KNOWINGLY CHASED THEM TO THE OUTSKIRT OF THE VILLAGE... YOU MADE THE SITUATION VERY FAVORABLE FOR MADARA TO GAIN SYMPATHIZER."

Tell me, fellow, don't you think taht orochimaru would notice it if the Uchiha had only been quanranteened to the backstore of the village just 16 years ago, when Kyuubi attacked? Hum? Hum? I can't teach you how to count.I don't think so. Don't you people notice somthing happened in New on September 11 2001 and that where stood the World trade Center there's now only Ground Zero? I think such change in the organization of the vilalge and the Uchiha Clan for the whole village to see wouldn't have missed Orochimaru notice, he's a smart kid.

That alone is uncounterable provof that the Uchiah were pushed away before Kyuubi's atacked, unless you can rewrite logic and events written on the manga, for the latter only Kishi can.

Tobirama can't "allow"them to mingle with the villagers, Uchiha are part of the village, they,re the historical co-root of the village, stop rewrtiting the things up. Tobirama was not the start of the project. hashirama proposed a truce, Uchiha accepted. then they formed and Alliance and then the village with many clans in it. Tobirama was not in any position to make the Uchiha enter konoha and mingle with the rest for the simple reason that it is not the chain of events: uchiha weren't invited in konoha, they built it with the Senju from scrap.

And Tobirama's words clearly shows that he wasn't Hashirama's biggest fan when treating with Uchihas.

I actually believe Tobirama and Hashirama's words over yours, no offence.
If two of the ones that knows everything, according to Kishi, said that Uchihas have a mental disorder, then for me they have a mental disorder.

And I don't think Tobirama or anyone else was so stupid to not distinguish between war time and peace time.
Madara followers existed even before Tobirama's "segregation".
Unless you believe grave-robbing, eye stealing, murdering of parents, friends and brothers for power is a normal behaviour

Good one, I laugh my ass off (joking, here). Oh, isn't Tobirama a necromancer (Edo TEnsei)? Oops. Re-read, stop inventing.

Infact what did Tobirama did next?
Grant them a priviliged position in the Village.
Does any other clan have such a special function? No.
Does any other clan have such power? No.

Even your hated Senjus are treated like every other clan.
If not, then why did Hiruzen wanted to chose between Minato and Orochimaru as his successor without considering Tsunade, a Senju?
Why he talked with so much respect about Itachi, an Uchiha, saying that he had, since he was a kid, the mentality of a Hokage?

Dude, Hiruzen doesn't have Tobiram,s mentality, don,t mix things up. Tobirama didn't give them a position of power, Uchihas were the co-founding clan and they've been pushed away of government into their police, with the Senju still ruling Hokage and High Council.

Why thank you

And yes, I believe I read Naruto. Why, in this entire manga we were said that Uchihas are cursed and have countless examples of it.
They aren't good, no matter what you may think, and neither you can prove it, considering 2 Uchihas are waging war against the world, the entire clan wanted to overrule the Hokage, basically destroying the village and they have an history of depravity excessive even for ninja standards.
Guess what side chose the only two sane members of their clan? That's right, the village.
No one forced Uchihas to become arrogant, no one forced them to disappear ( a side of the story I would like to know ) during the Kyuubi attack, no one forced Uchihas to plan a coup considering Hiruzen wanted a pacific resolution.
They have a sickness, plain and simple. It wasn't cured, and that led to what the Uchiha clan is today

Also are you that certain that Uchihas wouldn't have rebelled, if not for Tobirama?
What of the Kyuubi attack then?

Good one, dude. 2 Uchiha are against the world and now they're all evil, logic is crying in its tomb. Ninjas aren,t supposed to be good, they,re assassasins, they live off murder, conspiration, espionnage and warfare. This isn't Walt Disney World. They're hate was driven towards the Senju, not against the world just like that, they would have accepted hashirama's offer otherwise nor would have been good elements of konoha with the good reputation of excellency they had.

You're biased to the core. The only 2 sane members? Wasn't Itachi tourmented by what was happening? Didn't Danzou attacked Shisui when he planned to find a blooshedless solution and prevent the Coup? Danzou wanted them dead point blacnk. If you stop somebody like Shisui from doind what he was planning and exit without Konoha nor Uchiha being reduced to ashes then yeah, Danzou is messed up. "All for for the good of the village, the nation and the world." Can you see me laughing? I'll write it hahahahahahahaah Good one.
And who pushed teh cuhiha to teh edge again? Tobirama and the Elders, exactly. They weren,t crazy, despite what you're trying to prove. Bias is bias, you being on Nidaime's side doesn't change a thing to it.

"They have a history of depravity exceeding nijas standards" you pulled that one right out of terminal digestive opening. Nonesense. Show me the thing. Show me the Juugos havign run by the hundred throughout themillenia-old uchiha Clan history. I want to be overwhelmed. I don't ask Hitler to tell me the glory of the jews, nor the Us telling me the glory of USSR or vice-versa, or the Old persians and Old Greek talking great good about each other. I live on Planet Earth, gregorian calendar 21st century, when and where do you live in/at? Rhetorical,


Yes I'm certain they wouldn't have "rebelled" had Tobirama kept his bigotry where it belong as they would have nothing to rebel about or from as tehy would still be part of the governemnt, nothing would lock them up at the outskirt, they would have made sure as much as possible that peace for konoha prevailed, Konoha would have ahd pissed hard on Orochimaru's forces, Naruto and Sasuke would be forced into friendship (may not have succeeded in the long run) by their mothers the annoying way mothers do, and there would still be 3 great wars.

Let's take a minute for all the psychos and machiavellics who aren't Uchihas: Danzou, orochimaru, Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu, Hidan, Kisame, Zabuza before death, Kimimaro, Kabuto...
And now a minute another for all the Uchihas who aren't or have gone psychos that we know of: The Uchiha Clan minus Madara, Obito, some few who wanted EMS, Sasuke due to nidaime and Elders's scheme and... that's it.

Was Fugaku worthy of that position?
Just like the Hokage position, the advisors should be chosen by merits, and not by heritage imo.

Yes he was. Stop trying to change the apst history. Without the other higher-ups he would never have trying a coup d'etat to stop the repression of his clan.

[so6pww]

This is shortsighted and flat out wrong. It'd be like saying Tobirama isn't a real Senju because he can't use Mokuton. Not every Uchiha could use the Sharingan, let alone aquire MS. What makes you an Uchiha is your blood. Your family. Your pride. None of this is dependant on the Sharingan. The Uchiha were willing to give up their most prized and posession: love and friendship, all for the sake of not losing control and hurting those around them.
If they're willing to give up the most important thing to them in this world JUST to be good people, why should I believe they wouldn't give up the thing that's turning them bad in the first place. Not to mention, it's not the Sharingan that makes them evil: it's the loss of love that distorts their chakra when the power erupts full force. I'm saying subdue the chakra that changes them. Not the Sharingan itself.
It would be the same as sealing away Kurama's mind while taking his chakra for yourself. You get all the positive aspects and none of the negative.




Pay attention. The special chakra creates the Sharingan, yes. But the special chakra also continues to grow and grow with greater emotion. You prevent that greater chakra from growing, and the Sharingan will never reach that level of no return. Once again I point you to the Kurama explanation. His power can be used without him taking control. That's by keeping too much of his chakra from distorting your mind.

As for whether the Uchiha would allow this to happen, I think some would, and some won't. This is why I said it will weed out those willing to change for the greater good, and those that aren't. Proof that some are willing to change is the fact that the ENTIRE clan chose Hashirama over Madara. And proof that the ENTIRE clan chose to seal away their emotions to avoid being taken control of by their power. They've already taken multiple steps to avoid tragedy at their own hand.

The only way you could believe otherwise is if you ignore what was stated.



This is inaccurate. Itachi was praised by Konoha because he placed nothing above his patriotism, and had Kage-level intellect at the age of 7. He lived for Konohagakure alone. Not because he could control his Uchiha powers. This was stated nowhere. There's also no instance where "they were found guilty". You keep lumping the entire clan with the Uchiha who were not in on the coup. Likewise, no negotiation occured. The instant Itachi came to Sarutobi with proof of the coup they IMMEDIATELY chose to annihilate them. Well, Sarutobi didn't. He wanted to buy time.
Danzou didn't meet with Fugaku. Shisui tried to use Genjutsu to force them to change, but Danzou took his eye and forbade it. He wanted the coup to be attempted so that they'd have an excuse to kill them all. If any negotiations were made it was between Itachi, Shisui, and the rest of the Uchiha. They didn't need to hear from other Uchiha. They needed to hear from the Hokage. This never happened.



If the Hyuuga were put on the outskirts of the clan to be kept away from politics, it'd be the same. If the place they were given was an old prison, it'd be the same. It's not the same. And the Uchiha were respected... by the civilians. Not by the leader of the village or his cohorts. And that's all that matters, because they're the ones who make the decisions.

Infact, the Uchiha's respect gained from civilians could even be a stretch, as EVERYONE hates the police unless they need them at any given moment. Those with power are hated. Those with power are also corrupted.



I don't think you understand the difference between suspecting someone and letting it go once you have proof they're innocent... and suspecting someone because of what their ancestor did and never letting it go. We're talking about generations of persecution. Years.
Secondly, they proved Tobirama right only thanks to him causing events that lead to a coup. If he believed a coup was possible he should've used my better choices rather than leaving them REASON to plan a coup.



I don't believe you read a single thing I wrote, because my choices all result in lack of bloodshed, respect of both sides, honesty, and compromise. Tobirama's choices all were based on bias and fear.
Both are realistic, but only one choice was guaranteed to result in a coup: Tobirama's. You don't have to agree with my choices, but you do have to accept that I'm right. Instead of letting the Uchiha's cursed chakra push them toward a coup, he should've given them the tools to focus and control that unruly chakra. Instead he let them keep it becuase "guard dogs are more effective when they're angry".

I don't think he's a bad Hokage. He was a genius and he had that "do what needs to be done no matter what" mentality that is needed in his position. He had the resolve to make tough decisions. I respect this wholeheartedly.

He didn't however have the sense to think objectively, OR the foresight to stop and consider other opportunities. And it started something that his predecessors would have to deal with. He dropped the ball.

I think you are the one who is ignoring my point. Your solution is naive in my opinion. You are saying that we should send a person who go berserk when there is source of great pain around him to a battlefield. Then, you ask to place a power limiter on him. At least remember that if you limit his power, you send him to death. Unfortunately, there is no way you can remove birth of hatred from a battlefield. Thus, Sending an Uchiha on a battlefield with a seal that keep him from growing stronger is naive and worse than Tobirama's solution. In case they reach a state of anger, they will be blocked and the enemy will just kill them.


The truth here is that you solution will never be accepted by an Uchiha for two reason: (1) I doubt they believe they are sick, and (2) there is Ranking among Shinobi. Without the special chakra, there will be no MS, and without brothers eyes, there will be no EMS, thus the Uchiha going blind.

I doubt you can solve this problem while keeping them on the battlefield and asking them to prove themselves to be a better shinobi who can run for Hokageship against people like Kakashi, Naruto, etc.

No Matter how you guys want to accuse Tobirama, none of you has suggested a reasonable solution that can beat his solution. The reason is that you don't even understand how Sharingan work. Fact is without special chakra, there is no evolution of the Sharingan.

For you:

Naruto, Sakura, the entire Konoha gave all their respect to Sasuke, yet he keep digging grave. In other circumstance, he would have already killed all of them. Yet, you think that respecting such irrational mindset can work for a load of them. You are proving here that you are not cut to be Hokage. This is exactly the mistake Hiruzen made, and it caused the genocide.

Hashirama understood war better than his brother considering he was the one leading his clan and he was the one who was elected Hokage first. Did he take any measures that Tobirama did? No, and you want to know why? Because the war was over. A peace treaty was signed and Konoha was built.

These Uchiha's that founded Konoha wanted peace. They even ousted their leader they wanted it so bad. Not to mention, they knew they had a problem, and took steps to solve it by sealing off their emotions. Why would they go through all this trouble if they just wanted to fight the Senju again? That makes zero sense. They were changing, and Tobirama ignored that because he carried too much hate for them.

You cannot spam this kind of analysis without considering every possible aspect. As you have seen lately, Hashimara respect his brother to the point that he can shut his mouth when Tobirama ask him to. Thus, your statement is too bold when saying that he understood war better than Tobirama. In fact, he might have been receiving advice from his brother.

Now, why the Uchiha respected Hashimara?

1. They all experience war and were tired.
2. Hashimara could kick the ass of any of them.

Next, what do we know about Tobirama's Hokageship? well nothing clear, except what he said, and I can comment on it.

1. The old war time that caused the alliance has started to be forgotten with the newer generation. Thus people start their rivalry.
2. Some Madara fans still pulling strings in the dark. This is very true given what we saw with Obito.

As you can see, there is a great difference between Tobirama's time and Hashimara's time. Thus, saying that Hashimara understood war better than him is plain wrong, especially, when you don't even know if Hashimara is the one who came up with the idea of truce. Actually, Tobirama could have been the guy who brought the idea initially because it is a strategy that he can come up with.

Furthermore, we have no clue about how the Uchiha initially received Tobirama's idea to give them a place where they can be together. We don't have any clue about their relationship with Tobirama. In fact, there were Uchiha in his own team, meaning there were other Uchihas in other team. Thus actually, the Uchiha were had the right to become shinobi and prove themselves. Everything you guys are saying are based on statement from top criminals - Orochimaru, Tobi, and Madara, all of them consumed with their own pride or grieves. Maybe, the Uchiha were happy to have their own place until Madara's follower used the opportunity to screw the entire clan.


PS: When discussing, note that Tobirama is almost the last Senju. Thus, I doubt he was keeping Uchihas from power so that his clan can rule. Actually, he was protecting both the Uchiha and the future of Konoha.

[Rikudou Sennin]

Well most of the village people didnt even know about the coup plans nor did they feel that the Uchiha where up to something. I dont know but I dont think Tobirama did such a bad thing. Some parts were terrible mistakes, others were alright.

If they Uchihas didnt like the way they felt, they could have talked to Tobirama or Hiruzen later on. The thing Tobirama says about the illness is kinda weird, but it seems to be true as Hashirama didnt bother saying anything against it.

[marshall313]

The police enforces the governments will, they take orders, they are the governments watch dogs, but when it comes to village decisions they don't have anything to say.

And no.

A Co-Hokage wouldn't be necessary, but look here: http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v62/c590/13.html

The Hokage is not alone. Itachi was reporting not only to Hiruzen, but also to the village elders and Danzou... all of them hold some sort of politic power the Hokage isn't entitled to ignore.

Those are the positions Tobirama didn't want to be occupied by Uchihas, even though as co-founders they rightfully deserved those positions... or can you spot a fifth seat which would usually be occupied by Fugaku? Nope? Thought so...

That's seems odd. Tobirama never appointed those elders by himself. And when tobirama appointed hiruzen, he clearly said the reason, the hokage fit for hiruzen because he's the strongest ninja in the konoha.

Yea, maybe you're right. The uchiha deserved those positions, but does being a co-founder has the power to ruled out the fuedal lords decisions? It seems to me that the positions of an advisors was being appointed by the favor of the fuedal lord/s.

And fugaku? What's so special about him to deserve being an advisor? Honestly, the reason as a co-founder isn't enough to say that the uchiha should have an advisor in the konoha,s government. Yea, the uchiha are elite and awesome, but they don't have a worthy candidates to any position. They're doubting their existence in the konoha. Being in the position, anyone should put the village first rather than to his/their clan.

Honestly, hiruzen could pick itachi as the next hokage if the uchiha never had their coup. The uchiha wasted their only worthy candidate to become and well deserved as a hokage. They want the konoha's political power, but there's no uchiha worthy and well deserved at that position.

Their incompetent breed for greed. If they really wants the position, they should let the konoha's citizens and the feudal lord/s knows that they deserve that position by showing off their worth and love for the village.

[ninjabot]

I think you are the one who is ignoring my point. Your solution is naive in my opinion. You are saying that we should send a person who go berserk when there is source of great pain around him to a battlefield.

Not only did Tobirama do the same thing, but he lumped them atogether,

Then, you ask to place a power limiter on him. At least remember that if you limit his power, you send him to death. Unfortunately, there is no way you can remove birth of hatred from a battlefield.

It can be suppressed though, proven by Naruto. He placed a seal on Kurama condemnin him from having any effect on his life without his allowance, while still being able to use his power any time he wants.

Thus, Sending an Uchiha on a battlefield with a seal that keep him from growing stronger is naive and worse than Tobirama's solution. In case they reach a state of anger, they will be blocked and the enemy will just kill them.

You're... purposely misunderstanding me. Naruto, whether angry or not, can still use the chakra gained from Kurama at any point, with his mind-altering hatred being kept at bay thanks to the seal. There's literally no way you can keep misinterpreting this unless you just want to be wrong.

The truth here is that you solution will never be accepted by an Uchiha for two reason: (1) I doubt they believe they are sick, and (2) there is Ranking among Shinobi. Without the special chakra, there will be no MS, and without brothers eyes, there will be no EMS, thus the Uchiha going blind.

How the hell are they going to go blind if there's no MS, thus, needing no EMS? Secondly, if I didn't believe they were sick I wouldn't propose taking away what makes them sick. Lastly, if they're willing to give away their own emotions there's no way they're incapable of getting rid of their power.

I doubt you can solve this problem while keeping them on the battlefield and asking them to prove themselves to be a better shinobi who can run for Hokageship against people like Kakashi, Naruto, etc.

I already have. What's even worse is you keep trying to imply that an Uchiha is nothing without the Sharingan, when Minato, who has literally no kekkei genkai and the lowest amount of power compared to every other Kage, is revered as one of the best kage of them all. The Uchiha don't need the Sharingan to be fearsome. Ditto for Sarutobi. He also had no genetic powerup that made him superior to any other ninja.

No Matter how you guys want to accuse Tobirama, none of you has suggested a reasonable solution that can beat his solution. The reason is that you don't even understand how Sharingan work. Fact is without special chakra, there is no evolution of the Sharingan.

Every choice I listed is reasonable for anyone that accepts everything that Tobirama has stated already, aswell as what we've been shown concerning seals.
1:The Uchiha are willing to give up emotion for order and peace.
2:Chakra that alters people's personalities (bijuu, curse seal) can be suppressed with both willpower and fuuinjutsu
3: The Uchiha's power grows after unlocking the Sharingan and succumbing to more and more emotion
4: Tobirama already had them on battlefields without taking any precautions to keep them from going insane, so he has no qualms with doing so while they're sealed
There is NO ARGUMENT that makes fuuinjutsu or other forms of psychosis suppression a bad idea. Not a GOD DAMN ONE.

And also, not every clan were voicing their opinions about political matters. It wasn't as if there were representatives from every other clan and the Uchiha were the only exception to that. We should be blaming the village system, then, not specifically a Hokage.

Funny you should mention blaming the village system!

Tobirama Senju (千手扉間, Senju Tobirama) was the Second Hokage (二代目火影, Nidaime Hokage; Literally meaning "Second Fire Shadow") of Konohagakure. He hails from the Senju clan, who, along with the Uchiha clan, founded the first shinobi village: Konoha. During his reign, Tobirama was accredited as the Hokage that developed the village's organisational system as well as some of its infrastructure

So, now that the system is the problem, and we know Nazirama Senju created the system, we can blame him now. Right?

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tobirama_Senju

[Hakuteiken]

Funny you should mention blaming the village system!

Tobirama Senju (千手扉間, Senju Tobirama) was the Second Hokage (二代目火影, Nidaime Hokage; Literally meaning "Second Fire Shadow") of Konohagakure. He hails from the Senju clan, who, along with the Uchiha clan, founded the first shinobi village: Konoha. During his reign, Tobirama was accredited as the Hokage that developed the village's organisational system as well as some of its infrastructure

So, now that the system is the problem, and we know Nazirama Senju created the system, we can blame him now. Right?

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tobirama_Senju

So, right, you can blame him for not building a system that included representatives from each clan to discuss the political issues.
For discriminating the Uchiha? No.

Remember what happened when Tsunade was bedridden and there needed to be a Hokage selection. Were all the clans that were merged under Konoha's roof represented? Elders, Danzou, the Daimyo, Shikaku as the Jounin Commander were the ones I could remember. Add the other names if they were there. In any case, there were only a few people discussing the most important internal matter in the village, the appointment of the village leader.
In other words, blame Tobirama for not being an ambassador of democracy and shaping the village system up like that, but this has nothing to do with the Uchiha.

---------- Post added at 07:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 PM ----------

The real question to be asked here is, if Tobirama came up with a sealing method to counter this problem, would the Uchiha agree with something that would keep them from awakening the Sharingan forever?

[Kid Chameleone]

Yeah right, of course. Itachi and Sasuke being born aound 20 years later? Nope, later. Itachi and Sasuke being potential Madara's on their own? Not even close a drunken Saturday evening. Itachi has nothing of madara's mentality and Sasuke was driven to the path he's in because of Tobirama, the Elders, Itachi and Tobi. Re-read the story.

Uchiha being raw talent with untameable hate? You may say I'm speculating, but your making things up and putting Tobirama on a pedestal. Did you read the story? Did you read the story? You don't don't look like you do. During the Sengoku Jidai, all clans were fighting each other with the hate that this brings. Hate was everywhere with everybody, Jiraiya talked about it, Yondaime talked about, Green Peace talked about it, the beatles sang about it. Once Hashirama proposed the truce, guess who accepted it and pushed towards it hard despite what Madara's warning or ill-will? Yes, yes, you can say it, you know it: THE ENTIRE UCHIHA CLAN MEMBERS! Yes, sir! Rewrite another book if you don't like it.

Kimimaro was raw talent, Orochimaru refined it. Haku was raw talent, refined by Zabuza. Uchiha natual geniuses who keep refining themselves.

Tobirama clearly responsible for for Naruto and Sasukes fight at The Valley of the End because he schemed against the Uchiha and the Elders maintained his policies, even hardening them. Did you forget Uzumaki Kushina and Uchiha Mikoto being friends, or did you forget it because Mikoto used her Sharingan on her to hide her untameable hatred?

And Tobirama is a long-term visionary, so I don't excuse what he did and think who was stupid enough not to see the OBVIOUS results of what he was doing. If you hit someone you need to be seriously stupid or arrogant thinking the other won't try to hit you back. Nidaime thought the Uchiha would "rebel" but didn't forsee ther protest when he planned on repressign them? Or what it would lead to with decades of such policies were them even to increase? I don't buy it.





Of course I'm speculating, I'm Isay what the story told.

ANd I'm assuming, speculating that there was a council in which Uchiha and Senju were both present? Dude, did you not notice that every single major village we saw enough of had Elder/higher-ups Council? the only we didn,t see enough of among teh major countries is Iwagakure: Suna has its's own, Kumo had Elders by Raikage's saide, Kiri has Elders, Konoha has Elders. In Konoha, the elders are on Senju'S side. And did you forget the Uchiha and Senju built Konoha? That tehre was only 2 Clans to begin with? Do you they were all standing outside the building with Madara and Hashirama in alone discussing the affairs of their new Alliance? Do you really think that when Hashirama was elected there was nobody by his side, taht Madara and Uchiha were instantly pushed away because Hashirama became the big boss of the mountain? or do you thing Tobirama or Sarutobi invented the High Council idea and that there was none before? What is the ninja village government: Kage and Elders.

1-1= 0. x-1=0 >>x=0 +1 >> x= 1

Historywise: Uchiha are BEING OUTTEED of government (- 1) and thus are no longer part of government affairs (0). Not being part of government (aka 0) minus being tossed out of government affairs equals Uchiha being part of the government.

Tell me pal, how could the Uchiha managesd to be tossed out of government by Tobirama, as stated in the provided scans in my previous post, and how could Koharu say they'll be considered rebels if they want they political powers back, they weren,t part of the political power, of the government, which is the Elders Council, at the beginning? Tehy were part of teh government and Tobirama tossed them out, he didn't give them a position of power, they had a position of power since the very beginning of Konoha, the formation of teh Senju-Uchiha Alliance up until Tobirama retrograded them to guard dogs. i can't teach you how to read.

he did segragated, he did isolated them.. Why teh fuck would he have to put them under surveillance by the ANBU at the outskirt of the village around the prison and out of governmetn for? You're telling me the other clans were put in something similar. Cause last time I checked, between the truce and the upgrade in repressions after Kyuubi's attack, the Uchiha are 100% pro-peace.

And Tobirama isn't strong enough to kill the uchiah Clan by himself, it shouldn,t even be talked about. I bet my 3rd left nut that 13 year strong enough to beat the Uchiha in few hours at night without having a drop of blood or dirt on their clothes didn't appear that often in the course of history, just saying.

And no, no more credible source countradicted that there were isolation on Uchiha before Kyuubi,s attack and by Tobirama's hands:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c619/14.html

Tell me, please: how old is orochimaru? 53-54 years-old, 54, going by the Databook. Can we, AND THIS IS JUST "SPECULATION", assume that he spent quite a long part of his life in Konoha and knows really quite well how it looks, the architecture, the urbanism, the location of things, how to get in and out undetected, secret paths and stuff like that? Can we? Yes, we can. Then, tell me how exactly could 54-year-old Orochimaru, with flashback image evidence, coudl say, and I quote:

"YOU EVEN BUILT THEIR HEADQUARTERS IN A LOCATION THAT ONCE SERVED AS A PRISON... UNDER THE GUISE OF MAINTAINING THE PEACE YOU KNOWINGLY CHASED THEM TO THE OUTSKIRT OF THE VILLAGE... YOU MADE THE SITUATION VERY FAVORABLE FOR MADARA TO GAIN SYMPATHIZER."

Tell me, fellow, don't you think taht orochimaru would notice it if the Uchiha had only been quanranteened to the backstore of the village just 16 years ago, when Kyuubi attacked? Hum? Hum? I can't teach you how to count.I don't think so. Don't you people notice somthing happened in New on September 11 2001 and that where stood the World trade Center there's now only Ground Zero? I think such change in the organization of the vilalge and the Uchiha Clan for the whole village to see wouldn't have missed Orochimaru notice, he's a smart kid.

That alone is uncounterable provof that the Uchiah were pushed away before Kyuubi's atacked, unless you can rewrite logic and events written on the manga, for the latter only Kishi can.

Tobirama can't "allow"them to mingle with the villagers, Uchiha are part of the village, they,re the historical co-root of the village, stop rewrtiting the things up. Tobirama was not the start of the project. hashirama proposed a truce, Uchiha accepted. then they formed and Alliance and then the village with many clans in it. Tobirama was not in any position to make the Uchiha enter konoha and mingle with the rest for the simple reason that it is not the chain of events: uchiha weren't invited in konoha, they built it with the Senju from scrap.

And Tobirama's words clearly shows that he wasn't Hashirama's biggest fan when treating with Uchihas.



Good one, I laugh my ass off (joking, here). Oh, isn't Tobirama a necromancer (Edo TEnsei)? Oops. Re-read, stop inventing.



Dude, Hiruzen doesn't have Tobiram,s mentality, don,t mix things up. Tobirama didn't give them a position of power, Uchihas were the co-founding clan and they've been pushed away of government into their police, with the Senju still ruling Hokage and High Council.




Good one, dude. 2 Uchiha are against the world and now they're all evil, logic is crying in its tomb. Ninjas aren,t supposed to be good, they,re assassasins, they live off murder, conspiration, espionnage and warfare. This isn't Walt Disney World. They're hate was driven towards the Senju, not against the world just like that, they would have accepted hashirama's offer otherwise nor would have been good elements of konoha with the good reputation of excellency they had.

You're biased to the core. The only 2 sane members? Wasn't Itachi tourmented by what was happening? Didn't Danzou attacked Shisui when he planned to find a blooshedless solution and prevent the Coup? Danzou wanted them dead point blacnk. If you stop somebody like Shisui from doind what he was planning and exit without Konoha nor Uchiha being reduced to ashes then yeah, Danzou is messed up. "All for for the good of the village, the nation and the world." Can you see me laughing? I'll write it hahahahahahahaah Good one.
And who pushed teh cuhiha to teh edge again? Tobirama and the Elders, exactly. They weren,t crazy, despite what you're trying to prove. Bias is bias, you being on Nidaime's side doesn't change a thing to it.

"They have a history of depravity exceeding nijas standards" you pulled that one right out of terminal digestive opening. Nonesense. Show me the thing. Show me the Juugos havign run by the hundred throughout themillenia-old uchiha Clan history. I want to be overwhelmed. I don't ask Hitler to tell me the glory of the jews, nor the Us telling me the glory of USSR or vice-versa, or the Old persians and Old Greek talking great good about each other. I live on Planet Earth, gregorian calendar 21st century, when and where do you live in/at? Rhetorical,


Yes I'm certain they wouldn't have "rebelled" had Tobirama kept his bigotry where it belong as they would have nothing to rebel about or from as tehy would still be part of the governemnt, nothing would lock them up at the outskirt, they would have made sure as much as possible that peace for konoha prevailed, Konoha would have ahd pissed hard on Orochimaru's forces, Naruto and Sasuke would be forced into friendship (may not have succeeded in the long run) by their mothers the annoying way mothers do, and there would still be 3 great wars.

Let's take a minute for all the psychos and machiavellics who aren't Uchihas: Danzou, orochimaru, Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu, Hidan, Kisame, Zabuza before death, Kimimaro, Kabuto...
And now a minute another for all the Uchihas who aren't or have gone psychos that we know of: The Uchiha Clan minus Madara, Obito, some few who wanted EMS, Sasuke due to nidaime and Elders's scheme and... that's it.



Yes he was. Stop trying to change the apst history. Without the other higher-ups he would never have trying a coup d'etat to stop the repression of his clan.

youre being completely biased and your wrong on a lot of aspects

1. itach and sasuke are capable of becoming the next madara. itachi mastered sharigan at 8 and sasuke is a genius whos potential is said to surpass itachis. for you to say they cant reach madaras level is retarded seeing as theyre younger than him but capable of almost the same feats he is, hes just been powered up by hashirama cells so we dont know his true strength but to say itachi and sasuke couldnt reach that level is retarded seeing as they already are coming close to it and if itachi hadnt of died he'd probably reach adaras level within a few years if he got sauskes eyes.

also the uhchia have been know to steal eachothers eyes for power. no one told them to do that but they did it anyway. madara had followers so to say that there wouldnt have been a revolt and the chance of a second madara rising is retarded, we've seen itachi take one kakashi, kurenai and asuma without breaking a sweat and yet you think another wont rise? thats stupid and biased, your watering down the uchiha and their potential. seeing what madara,sasuke,itach,obit and shisui could do the chance of another one of them is actually pretty high seeing as 3 epic uchiha(shisu, itachi and sasuke) were all born within 10 years of eachother but yeah no chance of another madara :l

your forgetting that the uchiha are a cocky and arrogant clan, you make it seem like they were all lovey dovey when we've seen nothing but thirst for power coming from almost everyone of them shown except itachi and shisui. regardless of manipulation people are capable of making their own choices. there is a clear line between right and wrong, the fact that the were stealing each others eyes for power proves that they had no more compass and seeked power regardless of the cost. could you kil you brother for his eyes? countless uchiha have so dont sugar them. they are ruthless and their potential is ridiculously broken. their power comes from mental instability and its as tobirama said they get harder to deal with and madara and obito prove that seeing as the entire world is fighting them saying no and they dont give a fuck

2. this is a baseless argument. regardless of the senju being hokage the uchiha still wer the police force and last i checked the police are a major factor in any government. you may not think it but the people do influence people and the higher ups dont think that they have no power when they are responsible for keeping the village safe and only report to the hokage. they were given a special privilege which they DID accel at thanks to their sharigan. who can stop a cop with a sharigan?

let me ask you this, did choujis clan get special privilege? did shikimarus? no. the uchiha were given special privilege even though they didnt deserve it. just because they help found the village doesnt mean shit. it doesnt mean your entitled to a position or power just because you were there. the people voted for hashirama cause hes a laid back guy and madara was a douche, he couldnt see that and left. he didnt have followers immediately after he left they got suspicious of their own worth not realizing they were already higher p than almost every other nin clan.

let me ask you this, how come hiruzen got voted 3rd and not an uchiha? hes not senju so your argument is invalid. if the uchiha spent more time training and not been suspicious they couldve had a kage but they focus on power instead of love and inderstanding. the constant wars made them suspicious they failed to let their past go and it led to their dimise. if they hadnt of tried a coup they wouldnt have been slaughtered and would still be a driving force in konoha. being kage is about knowledge and understanding which they dont have. they had itach and shisui but they were blind to their potential and failed to see the true meaning of life that power isnt absolute. itachi and shusui couldve been great kages but look what happened, they got ignored in the quest for power

3. they have a mental disorder. that is the clear definition of a mental disorder.

4. the hasirama and tobirama were the only 2 senju kage. the council is made up of all types of nin and dont forget the feudal lords affect things too. your making it seem like there was no higher up uchiha when we werent even shown their past. getting on a council isnt about heritage its whos best suited for the job and as its been stated many times during the manga the old uchiha were power hungry sociopaths. all the suspicions they had came from their own minds. madara was never persecuted, he didnt get voted in so he left cause he was crazy. the uchiha may have been watched but that ended when tobirama died so them attacking konoha would be their own path, they were still the police while the senju were no longer hokage or on the council so this is flawed.

honestly no one has told the uchiha to do anything they are thier own people who came to their own conclusions without thinking things through fully and ended up getting wiped out. the same thing wouldve happened to any clan and the fact that hiruzen tried to end it peacefully and talked to them proved that the uchiha were full of shit and stuck in their old ways. the failed to evolve and that led to their dimise. dont blame tobirama cause if madara hadnt have attacked he wouldnt have placed them far away and that is the most logical thing to do if he had followers. the same would be done to any clan. the uchiha failed to prove they were nothing like madara and the fact they tried a coup after years of peace proves they were nothign more than power hungry. why not become hokage and lead the village? they were too stupid or lazy to think of this and wanted immidiate power. everything that happened to them is deserving. cause and effect bro, madara and the uchiha are responsible for their own deaths, no one told them to attack the vllage and no one made them feel unwelcome. they were one of knonhas most celebrated clans. they were just too cocky and arrogant. they wanted more and more. their thirst for power is the ultimate curse of the uchiha

[Rikudou King]

I don't think he is that stupid, of course he would know the difference between war time and peace time.

The problem with Uchihas is that they are hardly "other numerous characters", they are descendants from Rikudou Sennin and have access to the most broken Gekkei Kekkai in existence.
Tobirama's paranoic idea was that another Madara would rise, combining raw talent with untameable hate.
Guess who was born, like, 20 years later? Itachi and Sasuke, two who have ( had in Itachi's case ) the potential to be another Madara. And I don't see Tobirama believing in the fate that let Sasuke and Naruto met and fight

He wouldn't have to be stupid to let past experiences cloud his judgement. So far there hasn't been anything to indicate that during their time in Konoha, any Uchiha did as he claimed.

Being descendants of the Rikudou Sennin didn't make them any stronger then any other ninja, and we've seen the Sharingan gotten around multiple times. Sasuke as nearly lost half a dozen battles and Obito could only win by relying upon Kamui's limit being unknown, without it not being much of a threat. They're both the strongest Uchiha's alive after Itachi and neither one is exactly an unbeatable juggernaut. And considering the time it took them to reach their points of power, any Uchiha that look as if he could become a threat should have been easy to deal with before he could actually become one. The Hokage has an entire group of highly skilled assassins at his command.

Was Fugaku worthy of that position?
Just like the Hokage position, the advisors should be chosen by merits, and not by heritage imo.

Was Danzo worthy? Or the other two Elders? As far as we saw, they received the position simply because they were Sarutobi's teammates. Danzo was shown several times actually betraying the will of the Hokage, and was apparently quite notorious as someone who couldn't be trusted.

No Matter how you guys want to accuse Tobirama, none of you has suggested a reasonable solution that can beat his solution. The reason is that you don't even understand how Sharingan work. Fact is without special chakra, there is no evolution of the Sharingan.

Aside from the Sharingan not being the sole thing that made the Uchiha clan formidable, we literally have an example in the Hyuuga clan that a seal upon the eyes can work perfectly to control the user and make sure the eyes don't fall into the wrong hands.