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Thread: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

  1. #16
    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    @Uchiha_Blood:

    Interesting view of Tobirama, so that means we're back to "It's all Danzous fault." Guess this guy's the one who did the most damage to the village.
    Ironicly he was also one who loved the village tlil his brutal death.

    But coming back to Tobirama. I think that a genius like him and a genius like Hiruzen, both Hokage and probobly blessed with smart advisors (excluding Danzou) should've realized the problems coming up with Uchiha.
    I also cannot understand why espiecially Hiruzen let Danzou do his shit and not noticing that/doing something about it. Thats pretty pathetic if you ask me. Thats probobly also a thing we can ask Minato, why he didn't do anything about Danzou - but probobly hes the one who did the less to this situation as he wasn't Hokage THAT long...

  2. #17
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww
    How do you guys plan to solve the above question with a better solution than Tobirama's? I challenge any of you to tell me how he can fix such sickness by letting more than 10 or 20 such people roam free.
    There are multiple options, all of which better than simply pointing their homicidal tendencies in the opposite direction.

    1: Fuuinjutsu. We've seen that chakra can be suppressed with sealing techniques. A seal on the Uchiha's body that suppresses the chakra that alters their brains whenever they begin going mad would keep them in control of their powers. This way, any time they need a power boost they simply have their "handler" remove the seal long enough for them to do so.

    The seal would only be placed on those who are truly willing to seek help, which would be the best way to weed out the "bad" Uchiha from the "good" Uchiha. They don't get any weaker because the seal can be released to activate MS, and seal it again when their hatred goes out of control. And I don't think any of them would've been offended by the option because as Tobirama said "they sealed off their emotions". They did so to avoid losing control. That means they really do seek to suppress their hatred. They want to be normal.

    2: Respect. Not from the village, from the HEADS of the village. Tobirama made no attempt to hide the fact that he despises Uchiha when faced with an Uchiha. So I don't think for one second he treated them with respect when he was around them. Hell, look at how Hashirama acted. His douchebagery was nothing new. I think if he would've spoken with the head of the clan (whoever that was) and explained to him his fears he would've worked with him to avoid tragedy. Together they could've worked out something. Anything, other than simply pointing their hate in another direction.

    3: Honesty. Each clan should have a representitive on the Kage's board. No secrets. NONE. And I know what kinda reply this one is gonna get:

    "Um, the other clans were never direct rivals with Konoha, so they can ask for a representitive... but the Uchiha can't be trusted."

    Well, you'd be wrong. The Uchiha were never rivals with Konoha. They were rivals with the Senju. Tobirama's experiences with the Uchiha was based on Senju/Uchiha relations. Konohagakure was ruled over by the Senju, but it was not a Senju organization and thus, shouldn't be considered as such. The slate should've been whiped clean after Madara, but it wasn't.

    And let's be honest: why be afraid the Uchiha would attack the village after they lose loved ones... if they were Konoha ninja? The only enemies they would murder with their super scary badguy eyes is non-Konoha citizens. Unless ofcourse they were being persecuted. I also wanna point out that the only ones that called it a coup were Obito and Tobirama.

    The Uchiha called it a Revolution.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    And let's be honest: why be afraid the Uchiha would attack the village after they lose loved ones... if they were Konoha ninja? The only enemies they would murder with their super scary badguy eyes is non-Konoha citizens. Unless ofcourse they were being persecuted. I also wanna point out that the only ones that called it a coup were Obito and Tobirama.

    The Uchiha called it a Revolution.
    Tobriama wanted to do what was best for the village and yet he isolated a group that could arguably defend it better than anyone else. If he wanted to get rid of them so badly, and not have them harm the village, he should of had them going out and kicking ass instead of being cops.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  6. #19
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    So, while I share the view that Tobirama was a bastard, I think he wasn't a fascist, a racist or whatever discriminating insult people throw at him. I think he was just a pratical guy that got scarred by the war and always thought the best of the village, and put it above the rest.
    http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v63/c619/10.html

    "heh... an uchiha... its just like one to keep such company"

    http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v63/c619/14.html

    "besides you can't blame me for skewing things I did after what Madara pulled..."

    ^blatant prejudice against every single Uchiha just for something their renegade leader did.

    Thats like branding all Muslims as potential dangerous religious fanatics and shoving them all into the same bucket because of what Osama Binladen did... after all there could rise a new Osama from their ranks any day.

    That is racism, plain and simple. Him having "good intentions" doesn't change anything. If the USA suddenly had a president who starts taking away rights from black people in an attempt to reduce crime, then he also has "good intentions" (reducing crime) but it won't change the fact that his approach is just utter bullshit.

    I'm sure Hitler also had all the best intentions, just bringing security to his village (aka germany).
    Click here for what I consider the definition of "simply brilliant"

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    He was once a very charismatic, kind, special and inspiring person. LnDRash was a premium brand, now this brand is called LnDTRash!

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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Honestly, I think Tobirama was just paranoid as hell.

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member GyoMasta's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone View Post
    exactly he said he only cares for the village and it was true. if they attacked again they wouldve been open to attacks from other villages not to mention countless villagers deaths too. he did his job, its not fair to say hes a complete asshole when it was the best possible solution say madaras followers did revolt lol their power comes from mental instability after all

    ---------- Post added at 06:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 PM ----------

    honestly i know there was probably no one one their level but someone outside the uchiha and senju shouldve been voted hokage, just so its equal and neither side could complain. you cant put that much bloodshed and wars behind so easily that takes time
    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone View Post
    meh you gotta look at it from both sides, madara did just attack the village and fight his brother to the death while they were alive and did have followers who wanted to overthrow him. although he is a douche, i can understand him wanting to isolate them cause they may have tried a coup earlier if they had the chance. Plus he did make them into the police force which is a major part of any government, you guys are looking at this one sided. madara JUST attacked konoha and had followers, who's to say they wouldnt do it again? And he may have placed them at the outskirts of the village but still the hyuuga arent central in konoha and we havent seen sarutobis clan anywhere around, same for shikimarus and choji's. Yes he did isolate them but whos to say the uchiha wouldnt do the same? you guys gotta look at the big picture, they're mortal enemies who tried peace and one sides leader attacked the other and all this happened before they were isolated and dont forget they've been mortal enemies forever anyone would be suspicious of the others next move, regardless of the side. Hashirama was voted leader by the people not autocratically, madara wasn't satisfied and was paranoid. he wasnt fit to be the leader and couldnt see it so he came to his own conclusion that the senju were gonna take over not realizing that hashirama was a better leader and all around people person, he won their hearts which madara failed to do and failed to see. Madara is too ignorant to others and believes himself always right as he's doing right now, he believes he should rule the world with his jutsu while the planet is fighting him saying no. he isnt fit to lead as his views are too one sided so the people voted for hashirama. he felt cheated and instead of working on easing the pain of lose he chose to attack konoha out of suspision at a time when the senju and uchiha were true equals in the village.

    If madara hadnt of attacked hashirama then tobirama wouldnt have isolated them, this is all a major lapse in communication. madara shouldve spoken to them people and seen why he didnt get elected and worked on himself and tobirama instead of instantly isolating the uchiha he shouldve spoke to them about what their problems were to make a compromise.

    all in all its their deep rooted hatred that made everything happen, both sides were at fault but i could picture the exact same thing happening if madara got elected, bot side never truly let go before they made peace so it was pretty obvious the chance of it failing was high

    Re-read the manga, madara gain supporters only after his appearent death because of Tobirama,s repressive measures. NOT A SINGLE UCHIHA SUPPORTED MADARA FOR HOKAGE SHIP NOR FOR HIS ATTACK ON HASHIRAMA AND THE VILLAGE. Even the 1 month-old baby in his bed turned his back on madara... then his parents turned him back to prevent suffocation.

    Not a single Uchiha was supporting Madara's actions. Those Uchiha, Setsuna and friends:

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-14...apter-399.html
    http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/39428885/13

    ... that both Tobi and Tobirama talked about appeared AFTER Nidaime's Uchiha Repression Bill, not before. And as I and others said it before, Tobirama's decision was the best at all. Uchiha were never a threat to the Alliance, dried up mentalities like his were.

    And no, the Uchiha's Kekkei Genkai is not a result of psychic troubles, even if Sharingan activates under pstressed situation. Because surely Obito activated his Sharingan and saved Kakashi because he was mentally unstable, right? nidaime did like Tobi: the best way to put up a lie is to surround it with truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I think you lot clearly misunderstood what Tobirama did, clearly misjudging his attitude, which was jerkish ( its actually way worse lol ).
    Tobirama didn't intend to discriminate Uchiha, that is the consequence of his actions, not his purpose.
    You can see it when Orochimaru has to explain why Tobirama was mistaken, and what his actions produced in the end.

    Tobirama's goal was to keep Uchihas under watch, not to discriminate them or something like that.
    If he did, why then did he:
    -allowed them to mingle with the village
    -took an Uchiha in his squad
    -give them a position of power to better aid the village ( see what he said to Hashirama, he gave Uchiha the role they were the best at ).


    He could just murder them all for Madara's sins, or did you forget Konoha asking Itachi to do the same, taking the blame for his clan's sin?

    Look at what Orochimaru said, the Uchihas got angry because:
    -their own power, added to the one Tobirama gave them, made them superb and arrogant
    -their position made them not liked by the general population, and we know that hate towards a group tends to either make it fall apart or unite it even before. Considering how tight Uchihas were, its kinda logical that they united against the hate and increased even more their pride, mistaking the dislike for jealousy ( remember Sasuke's speech to Orochimaru ? ).
    -their standing shattered when Obito unleashed Kyuubi, and Konoha then, and only then, "segregated" them, and then losing political power.
    But that wasn't Tobirama's doing, but Danzou's.

    So, while I share the view that Tobirama was a bastard, I think he wasn't a fascist, a racist or whatever discriminating insult people throw at him.
    I think he was just a pratical guy that got scarred by the war and always thought the best of the village, and put it above the rest. Did he make mistakes? Hell yes. But was he an evil mastermind that persecuted Uchihas? Hell no.
    Imo
    Tobirama tricked them, plain and simple. And he didn't took an uchiha on his team, that Uchiha was a konoha shinobi and they were at war against the rest of the world, we don't even know how he end up there. Team Tobirama consisted of him, Hiruzen, Koharu and Homura.

    Never did the Uchiha acted against the village until the repressions went to far in their eyes. And Nidaime didn't allow them crap, he's no peacemaker. the Uchiha, as you seem to have forgotten, are the co-founding members of Konoha, they were part of the government before Nidaime pushed them away and put them in the police near the prison.

    And the Uchiha excel at everything just like the Senju, that's why in centuries and centuries the Senju-Uchiha conflict never had a winner, they were each other's unstoppable force facing an unmovable object, until Hashirama proposed a truce. So saying them being no longer in the government and participating in the rest of the activities just like the other clans and being put in the police being the right and better thing to do is plain ridiculous. Nidaime could just as well put his fellow Senju in the police- oh, no, wait, that's beloved clan, forget that.

    The Uchiha, before Tobirama's actions, were already in position of power by Senju's side, Tobirama tossed them out. And he could just murder them as you put it, a monster genius like Itachi doesn't appear every year.

    Nidaime plan it all, Danzou and co. put up the final part.
    The Senju used the village as a coat-shield against konoha while attackingg them despite the trucea and alliance, that's what Tobirama did. Uchiha were no threat to the village, they built it and made those other clans join the Alliance too. Then Nidaime got slick and snaky and pushed them away by taking advantage of Madara's attack to do what his clan never managed to do during the old War Era: defeat the Uchiha. Tobirama read the Art of War by Sun Tsu and The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli and with Danzou, managed to destroy Uchiha in a multi-generational plot. The "virtue" of patience and fake association.

    "How many times did I tell you to stop persecuting the Uchiha!?", said Hashirama to his younger brother. Tobirama didn't live in konoha as long as sarutobi, most of his life the Uchiha were THE ENEMY. He didn't change even if he cared for the village and used biased opinon about the Uchiha to do something that shouldn't happen to begin with.

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  12. #22
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member KingOfNight's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Most of the solutions\opinions here are rather creative, but I doubt any of us experienced war so we can't say for sure if what Tobirama did was wrong. Hashirama also knew that the Uchiha were a cursed clan and can see where his brother is coming from. While he didn't like his brothers way of doing thinks, he clearly didn't go against it because he knew it was for the better, and even knew how the Uchiha are. This can be seen from his regretful face here.

    There is also Itachi, he believed the same thing as Danzo and Tobirama, but people are not judging him because he's their main man. He took the same solution and found that killing his clan was the best option for sake of the village.

    You can say that Tobirama's choice was what started all this, but it's not like he did it intentionally. He did it as a sign of good faith, he knew the Uchiha were a soft clan, but he didn't think they were a clan of Teletubbies who would be so emotionally affected and insulted just because they weren't in the top.

    It was after the Kyuubi's incident that they were completely doubted, however, they were doubted and feared only by the higher authorities of Konoha. While all the ordinary villagers were still proud of them as "Konoha's strongest clan". But it was indeed an Uchiha's fault that the Kyuubi's attack happened. It was their softness and Teletubbies-ness that constantly made them cause almost all major problems.

    They take extreme measures for the simplest of causes, that's why they were feared. It's different from racism. Tobirama and Danzo didn't hate the Uchiha because of who they are, they feared the Uchiha because of what they turn to be. It's like calling someone racist for isolating someone with a deadly contagious disease.

    Itachi knew that, and eventually took on Tobirama and Danzo's way of thinking. He knew that wanting to satisfy everyone was just an empty dream. He knew that the world was not all roses and rainbows and that the right measures have to be taken in order to protect the village. The world is as Jiraya said, harsh and unforgiving, the right decision has to be made. For example, Danzo's order for killing Sasuke is harsh and doesn't satisfy everyone, but it's the absolute right choice and the most reasonable one.

    I'm not supporting either sides here, but people are bashing Tobirama too much. He did what nearly evey other reasonable human would have done for the sake of his village.
    Last edited by KingOfNight; February 08, 2013 at 02:48 AM.

  13. #23
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Unless Tobirama is an idiot, then he should have known what he did would have extreme adverse side effects. The fact he made their clan make up the entire police force was a terrible idea because it not only would make them the only one's people who dislike, but would allow them to abuse their power since they had no one to answer to but the Hokage. That is a very unintelligent idea, and I think we can say Tobirama wasn't unintelligent.

    So he can claim ignorance all he wants, but he knew exactly what he was doing, and his view of the Uchiha and lack of surprise that they formed a coup and his open hatred for them kind of points to that being the obvious thing.

    IMO, he could have made the police force and made them a part of it, but he could have also made them personal guards of the Hokage. Or perhaps made them a staple of the ANBU who are servants of the Hokage and prefer black outs missions.
    He wasn't stupid, he used Uchihas for a thing he knew they were the best at, fully expecting that they would rebel.
    As for their abuse of power, I think that was a proof of trust:
    can Uchihas be trusted? Until the coup, everyone can say they could. And his "open hatred" couldn't be open, considering he had an Uchiha in his team.

    And then would an Uchiha, a founding clan, accept the same position of other clans while 2 Senjus were Hokages? I don't think so. The police thing can be seen as a way to appeal to them, considering they were a warrior clan

    Quote Quote:
    Isolating people who are prone to bad behavior when their emotions get the best of them and giving them no support system is the dumbest thing anyone could do, and unless he was a complete idiot, which he wasn't, then it was done so with ulterior motives.
    He didn't isolate them, the isolation began after the Kyuubi incident.
    And even then, Uchihas were part of the village, could mingle with the village and all that. Remember the teachers words about Itachi?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    It's true that he probably didn't intend it on purpose, but he clearly showed some prejudice feelings towards the clan, and that likely caused his actions to bring more trouble then they would of if he didn't have any prejudices against them.
    No one said he wasn't prejudiced, he was a downright bastard.
    Doesn't mean everything he did was part of a plan to kill Uchihas, that came later with Danzou

    Quote Quote:
    The thing is, that even after what Konoha pulled, the Uchiha clan was still willing to talk things out with Sarutobi. Along with that, we hadn't heard of any violent incidents from the clan against Konoha until the coup, decades after everything Tobirama did. So clearly his opinion of the Uchiha clan doesn't fit with Tobirama's claims and that makes his reasoning suspect. If only two out of the hundreds go on to pose a threat, and only because they got manipulated into it, either his reasoning was false or the Uchiha clan attempted to prove themselves fitting of belonging in the village. Either way, they didn't deserve the way they were treated.
    Tobirama lived all his life fighting against Uchihas, meaning, as he said, he saw countless Uchihas go mad when they lost someone they loved.
    Also, as Oro said, he seemed pretty scarred by Madara.
    I think its best to see the full story behind before making wild assumptions, considering next chapter its Hashirama's turn to talk.

    I agree they didn't deserve to be wiped out, but that was not a Konoha's act, it was all Danzou, and Itachi agreed with it, like Hiruzen said, taking it as a personal mission.
    And let's not forget Obito, which clearly had some connection with Danzou, if we go by the comment he made when they saw each other:

    "last time we met, it was during the Uchiha massacre"

    ---------- Post added at 02:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v63/c619/10.html

    "heh... an uchiha... its just like one to keep such company"

    http://mangafox.me/manga/naruto/v63/c619/14.html

    "besides you can't blame me for skewing things I did after what Madara pulled..."

    ^blatant prejudice against every single Uchiha just for something their renegade leader did.

    Thats like branding all Muslims as potential dangerous religious fanatics and shoving them all into the same bucket because of what Osama Binladen did... after all there could rise a new Osama from their ranks any day.

    That is racism, plain and simple. Him having "good intentions" doesn't change anything. If the USA suddenly had a president who starts taking away rights from black people in an attempt to reduce crime, then he also has "good intentions" (reducing crime) but it won't change the fact that his approach is just utter bullshit.

    I'm sure Hitler also had all the best intentions, just bringing security to his village (aka germany).
    I would agree with you if Tobirama fought, lived and met only Madara, but let's not forget he saw, met and fought countless Uchihas in the battlefield and saw a countless number of them go insane.

    They don't talk about Madara going crazy, they talk about Uchihas going crazy

    Quote Originally Posted by GyoMasta View Post
    Tobirama tricked them, plain and simple. And he didn't took an uchiha on his team, that Uchiha was a konoha shinobi and they were at war against the rest of the world, we don't even know how he end up there. Team Tobirama consisted of him, Hiruzen, Koharu and Homura.
    So we can assume Kagami and that Akimichi were a 2 man team?

    Quote Quote:
    Never did the Uchiha acted against the village until the repressions went to far in their eyes. And Nidaime didn't allow them crap, he's no peacemaker. the Uchiha, as you seem to have forgotten, are the co-founding members of Konoha, they were part of the government before Nidaime pushed them away and put them in the police near the prison.

    And the Uchiha excel at everything just like the Senju, that's why in centuries and centuries the Senju-Uchiha conflict never had a winner, they were each other's unstoppable force facing an unmovable object, until Hashirama proposed a truce. So saying them being no longer in the government and participating in the rest of the activities just like the other clans and being put in the police being the right and better thing to do is plain ridiculous. Nidaime could just as well put his fellow Senju in the police- oh, no, wait, that's beloved clan, forget that.
    And then why both Obito and Tobirama claimed there were quite a few Uchihas that took Madara's ideals as their own?
    And how do we know what happened if no one showed it to us?
    How do we know the full story behind it if the manga itself hasn't shown us everything?

    And no, they weren't in a position of force before Tobirama, the village had to chose a leader and they chose Hashirama.
    The rest of the clans were equals, be it Senjus, Uchihas, Hyuugas or Naras.

    Quote Quote:
    The Uchiha, before Tobirama's actions, were already in position of power by Senju's side, Tobirama tossed them out. And he could just murder them as you put it, a monster genius like Itachi doesn't appear every year.

    Nidaime plan it all, Danzou and co. put up the final part.
    The Senju used the village as a coat-shield against konoha while attackingg them despite the trucea and alliance, that's what Tobirama did. Uchiha were no threat to the village, they built it and made those other clans join the Alliance too. Then Nidaime got slick and snaky and pushed them away by taking advantage of Madara's attack to do what his clan never managed to do during the old War Era: defeat the Uchiha. Tobirama read the Art of War by Sun Tsu and The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli and with Danzou, managed to destroy Uchiha in a multi-generational plot. The "virtue" of patience and fake association.

    "How many times did I tell you to stop persecuting the Uchiha!?", said Hashirama to his younger brother. Tobirama didn't live in konoha as long as sarutobi, most of his life the Uchiha were THE ENEMY. He didn't change even if he cared for the village and used biased opinon about the Uchiha to do something that shouldn't happen to begin with.
    I think you are going quite ahead of yourself, considering we still have to know Hashirama and Madara's part of the story.

    As for this being part of Tobirama's master plan... I find it unlikely, if an absolute fanfiction.
    I also suggest you reread Obito's tale to Sasuke and last chapter, Uchihas weren't spineless maggots, they were a proud clan of proud warrior, would they accept to be treated like any other clan?
    I don't think so

  14. #24
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I would agree with you if Tobirama fought, lived and met only Madara, but let's not forget he saw, met and fought countless Uchihas in the battlefield and saw a countless number of them go insane.

    They don't talk about Madara going crazy, they talk about Uchihas going crazy
    But that just explains where his prejudices are coming from... its not justifying them.

    Binladen wasn't alone either, he had tons of followers and its no secret that the Muslim religion can give birth to some dangerous philosophies. But that still doesn't make it right to lump them all together.

    Doing so would not only be immoral, but in the long run it would make things only worse. Suddenly all the decent people among them who have nothing to do with the fanatics would be forced to make a choice: either surrender to oppression and injustice, or side with the fanatics to fight for their own self-preservation.

    That above example is pretty much exactly what Tobirama has caused.
    Last edited by LnDRash; February 08, 2013 at 04:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    But that just explains where his prejudices are coming from... its not justifying them.

    Binladen wasn't alone either, he had tons of followers and its no secret that the Muslim religion can give birth to some dangerous philosophies. But that still doesn't make it right to lump them all together.

    Doing so would not only be immoral, but in the long run it would make things only worse. Suddenly all the decent people among them who have nothing to do with the fanatics would be forced to make a choice: either surrender to oppression and injustice, or side with the fanatics to fight for their own self-preservation.

    That above example is pretty much exactly what Tobirama has caused.
    Try to see the situation objectively:
    you know the clan has an inherited mental disorder, you know a good bit of fanatics have Madara's ideals, and you know that, should another Madara arise the village would risk utter annihilation.
    What he does?
    He gives the Uchihas a position of trust, but he also make it so they can be eliminated should something arise.

    Did Tobirama killed the Uchihas? No.
    Did the village discriminate the Uchihas? No, otherwise you wouldn't have people going on about how great Uchihas are, considering also the parents never warned their kids not to befriend Sasuke like they did with Naruto.
    Did the village did anything hurtful against Uchihas before the Kyuubi accident? We don't know, but considering they were "segregated" after the incident I don't think so.
    Were Uchihas killed for no reason? They planned to overthrow the Hokage, before that we don't have mentions of anyone mistreating Uchihas.
    Was Tobirama right in the end? Apparently.
    Was Tobirama justified in what he did, or without faults? Hell no, he has a huge responsibility, but it wasn't some master plan, but simply his mistake.
    Just like creating Edo Tensei.

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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Tobirama was "suspecting" Madara followers, but he didn't actually have a clue. From all we know there where no Madara sympathisers until Tobirama pulled that Police-Force stunt.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-14...apter-399.html

    Quote Quote:
    Was Tobirama right in the end? Apparently.
    His concerns only came true because he did everything in his might to make them true.

    Its like if I would voice concern about a house being in danger of catching fire... so to prevent that I start depositing highly flammable chemicals in that house basement and then I go there every day to make a campfire.

    And later, once the house finally burns down, I'll act all high and mighty "See!? Didn't I tell you!?".
    Click here for what I consider the definition of "simply brilliant"

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Sachsenhesse's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Call we wrong but...

    Isnt this a manga about ninjas?

    and

    Arent normally emotions a general taboo for ninjas?

    Quote Quote:
    Not to mention, for all the dumb shit Tobirama has been saying, it is his technique Edo Tensei that is causing just as many problems for his village and his world than any Uchiha has.
    Surprising this comes from an american. xD Guns dont kill people. People kill people. And with this: Jutsu dont kill ninjas. Ninjas kill ninjas.

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  19. #28
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    Tobirama was "suspecting" Madara followers, but he didn't actually have a clue. From all we know there where no Madara sympathisers until Tobirama pulled that Police-Force stunt.

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-404-14...apter-399.html


    His concerns only came true because he did everything in his might to make them true.

    Its like if I would voice concern about a house being in danger of catching fire... so to prevent that I start depositing highly flammable chemicals in that house basement and then I go there every day to make a campfire.

    And later, once the house finally burns down, I'll act all high and mighty "See!? Didn't I tell you!?".
    You said it, "for all we know".
    For all we know Tobirama had a pretty good reason to suspect Uchihas, which will known during Hashirama/Madara flashbacks, if Kishi wants to expand the "Uchiha are cursed" thing.

    As for his stunt, would you blindly trust the same force that followed Madara during his time ( because, during Tobirama's time, Uchihas were the same clan that fought with Senjus all this time ), and that you know can turn on you whenever they want, having the means and the power to do that?
    And he himself tried to create a situation when Uchihas would earn back that trust.
    It backfired, true, but it wasn't a plan to massacre them all.

    Madara died and Hashirama did too, the difference was that, while Hashirama was one of a kind, the Uchiha's curse could pretty well spurr another Madara.
    Fortunately for Konoha, Itachi was an insightful and wise kid

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member LnDRash's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    You said it, "for all we know".
    For all we know Tobirama had a pretty good reason to suspect Uchihas, which will known during Hashirama/Madara flashbacks, if Kishi wants to expand the "Uchiha are cursed" thing.
    If we get new facts I'm always willing to change and adapt my opinion, but for now the manga only shows the Uchiha being dissatisfied once Tobirama started pulling the strings, not before.

    Actually they even endured that unfair treatment for decades... it wasn't until the Kyuubi incident and the new imputations that the Uchihas had enough and started to rebel.

    Quote Quote:
    As for his stunt, would you blindly trust the same force that followed Madara during his time ( because, during Tobirama's time, Uchihas were the same clan that fought with Senjus all this time ), and that you know can turn on you whenever they want, having the means and the power to do that?
    Yes I would.

    Because all of those people openly turned their back on that leader. Madara was like "lol wtf dis shit?! Lets gank those bishes and I'll become leader!" but those "followers" just said "Dude... piss off Mads! Hashi is fine leader, if you can't accept that: get lost! Cause we won't help ya!"

    Then that banished leader even got presumably killed by Hashirama, which should have been enough to disperse any second thoughts about some possible hidden agenda going on... but apparantly for Tobirama it wasn't.

    Quote Quote:
    It backfired, true, but it wasn't a plan to massacre them all.
    Those clans both founded the village, they should have been complete equals. But Tobirama striped that away from them, he didn't want them to have any say in politics. Genocide isn't the only way to spread injustice and upset people.

    Quote Quote:
    Madara died and Hashirama did too, the difference was that, while Hashirama was one of a kind, the Uchiha's curse could pretty well spurr another Madara.
    Yes, it "could".

    But "guilty by default until proven innocent" never worked so well. The best you could do to prevent another Madara is making sure whatever led to Madara becoming the way he was not repeating itself... but certainly not poking the nest of potential Madaras with a stick until they get angry and all of them transform at once.
    Click here for what I consider the definition of "simply brilliant"

    Quote Originally Posted by syx View Post
    He was once a very charismatic, kind, special and inspiring person. LnDRash was a premium brand, now this brand is called LnDTRash!

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  22. #30
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by LnDRash View Post
    If we get new facts I'm always willing to change and adapt my opinion, but for now the manga only shows the Uchiha being dissatisfied once Tobirama started pulling the strings, not before.

    Actually they even endured that unfair treatment for decades... it wasn't until the Kyuubi incident and the new imputations that the Uchihas had enough and started to rebel.
    What "unfair" treatment?
    They were watched, true, but they also had more power than any other clan in Konoha.
    Its not like someone forced them to become arrogant

    Quote Quote:
    Yes I would.

    Because all of those people openly turned their back on that leader. Madara was like "lol wtf dis shit?! Lets gank those bishes and I'll become leader!" but those "followers" just said "Dude... piss off Mads! Hashi is fine leader, if you can't accept that: get lost! Cause we won't help ya!"

    Then that banished leader even got presumably killed by Hashirama, which should have been enough to disperse any second thoughts about some possible hidden agenda going on... but apparantly for Tobirama it wasn't.
    While you have a point, I see them being appointed as the Village Police as an act of trust.
    It was Tobirama's fault thinking about them only as a powerful force, and not as a prideful clan that would get nothing good from it. Remember Itachi's speech to Sasuke, when they were little?
    Being part of the Police was an Uchiha's pride, because they were protecting the village.

    Quote Quote:
    Those clans both founded the village, they should have been complete equals. But Tobirama striped that away from them, he didn't want them to have any say in politics. Genocide isn't the only way to spread injustice and upset people.
    Being a Senju doesn't mean you are to be Hokage, to be Hokage you need the approval of the Jounins, the Council and the Daimyo.
    Was Hiruzen a Senju? Was Yondaime a Senju? Why didn't Hiruzen consider Tsunade for the Fourth position, but only Minato and Orochimaru?

    Quote Quote:
    Yes, it "could".

    But "guilty by default until proven innocent" never worked so well. The best you could do to prevent another Madara is making sure whatever led to Madara becoming the way he was not repeating itself... but certainly not poking the nest of potential Madaras with a stick until they get angry and all of them transform at once.
    I did say that Tobirama was mistaken, I'm not trying to say he's right, I'm trying to justify why he thought appropriate to do what he did.
    The fact that he messed up big time is the plain truth, Orochimaru said as much pretty clearly

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