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Thread: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

  1. #316
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Granting them the police force and having them located in a former prison on the outskirts were the same event, so it wouldn't make much sense that the same act was motivated by separate emotions. If you're thinking of the segregation that cause them to [plot the coup, that wasn't Tobirama, but Danzo and co decades later. Anyway, good faith implies a willingness to trust without any conditions, and by all accounts Tobirama had little to no trust in them.

    Just because he didn't purposely goad them upon the road of rebellion doesn't absolve him of laying the seeds that eventually lead to it. He may be clear of committing any actual wrongdoing, but he would be at fault for setting the stage for the conflict, even if he couldn't/wouldn't have been aware of the end results.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Just because he didn't purposely goad them upon the road of rebellion doesn't absolve him of laying the seeds that eventually lead to it. He may be clear of committing any actual wrongdoing, but he would be at fault for setting the stage for the conflict, even if he couldn't/wouldn't have been aware of the end results.
    I agree that he's at fault, but I don't believe he's guilty of it (actual guilt) because he didn't make those choices with the intent of the result. But getting to the actual heart of the topic, this is why I wonder why people hate him so much. If it's because they hate his guts or is blaming him for the annihilation of the Uchiha clan because he's responsible for it or what not; keeping in mind that his persecution wasn't intended to wipe them out in the first place, but to be ready in case something like a coup happened. Basically, I think this is a reasonable decision to be made by a leader who is responsible for all of the people under his care.

    Even then, if Fugaku and the leadership of the village (once Tobirama was dead) wanted to, they could've alleviated the situation and chances are Tobirama probably wouldn't end up being blamed for Uchiha's fate. It's like the snowball at the top of the mountain that turned into an avalanche by the time it rolled downhill. I just happen to be more forgiving of people who make mistakes and less so when people do it on purpose with an intent to malice.
    Last edited by Anduren; February 18, 2013 at 09:58 PM.

  3. #318
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    I don't hate Tobirama at all, I just hate how people justify what he did, as much as I would hate how people would justify the coup. I mean, how can you justify moving Uchiha to a place that used to be a prison, just because of what Madara, who was ousted by Uchiha, did? How could you not be aware that doing something like that would definitely create more Madaras (which it did)?

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  5. #319
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I mean, how can you justify moving Uchiha to a place that used to be a prison, just because of what Madara, who was ousted by Uchiha, did? How could you not be aware that doing something like that would definitely create more Madaras (which it did)?
    That's a good question. Personally, I don't think there's any good justification for it except to just say like Sasuke did that Tobirama was traumatized into thinking that way. That doesn't excuse it though. But then, you have to wonder about the situation of what if random circumstances that are unrelated to discrimination (like what happened to Obito) created a Madara type Uchiha (which also it did)? It would still be the Hokage's responsibility to take whatever actions to protect the village against such a person.

    I also think that if the members of the Uchiha clan, as a whole were more aware of the process behind how the Sharingan works and the pitfalls of gaining power through the sharingan (tendency to fall into darkness and hatred), they may have been more understanding of the precautions taken by Tobirama instead of being offended and thinking that he's just persecuting them because "the Senju want to rule over the Uchiha". The reality is, Tobirama didn't persecute them because he hates them (according to him, anyways) he did it because they were a potential danger to themselves and others, and he wanted to minimize casualties.
    Last edited by Anduren; February 18, 2013 at 10:27 PM.

  6. #320
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    You'd also have to wonder just what Madara did or said to make Tobirama fear him, and not only that, but the other kage as well. Oonoki shat his pants twice, once when Tobi said he was Madara and when actual Madara appeared. The issue is that Uchiha agreed to peace with Senju and chose Hashirama, kicking Madara out when he protested Hashirama being the hokage, so why would Tobirama even suspect Uchiha? I mean, we see that bad events lead to some Uchiha being bad. Obito lost the love of his life while Madara was raised in an era of war, wanted to protect his clan, and was betrayed by them. Sasuke also lost his family, and learned that his brother was scapegoated. If Tobirama took care of the Uchiha better, then there'd likely not be anyone who began to agree with Madara.

    I think they either were aware, or knew that there wouldn't be as much danger. Because who else apart from Madara do we know went batshit crazy, before Obito? I'm not sure if some thought Senju wanted to rule over Uchiha, but that Senju didnt' trust Uchiha at all.

    But it's still bigoted. And by pushing them away, he could have very well been creating that danger himself. I mean, if the powers didn't take away Uchiha's equality or suspected them for the Kyuubi's attack, then the Uchiha wouldn't have planned a coup. Though, maybe something would have happened to vilify the Uchiha, as Danzou would have made sure.

  7. #321
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    It's possible Tobirama thought that if another Madara showed up after Hashirama was dead there would be no one capable of dealing with it. But that's still just speculation on my part. I guess there's still nothing known about all the stuff that's happened between the Senju and Uchiha from the time of the Sage of the six paths' sons up to Hashirama and Madara or how powerful those people were.

    I'm of the belief that there's no way to completely "protect" people from pain. Bad stuff just happens whether you plan for it or not. So to say anyone could have by any action whatsoever protected the Uchiha from having any kind of mental trauma that might push them over the edge is unrealistic. So the next best thing would be to prepare for the "what if" for the worst case scenario.

    As bystanders, its easy for us to pass judgement and call someone bigoted; but its precisely because people in leadership are expected to make harsh decisions at the risk of being seen as a bad guy that not everybody is cut out to be one.

    In the end, I think it all comes down to whether the "curse of the Uchiha" is an actual condition that should be taken seriously or if its just an excuse to persecute the clan.
    Last edited by Anduren; February 18, 2013 at 11:04 PM.

  8. #322
    MangaHelper MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    I agree that he's at fault, but I don't believe he's guilty of it (actual guilt) because he didn't make those choices with the intent of the result. But getting to the actual heart of the topic, this is why I wonder why people hate him so much. If it's because they hate his guts or is blaming him for the annihilation of the Uchiha clan because he's responsible for it or what not; keeping in mind that his persecution wasn't intended to wipe them out in the first place, but to be ready in case something like a coup happened. Basically, I think this is a reasonable decision to be made by a leader who is responsible for all of the people under his care.

    Even then, if Fugaku and the leadership of the village (once Tobirama was dead) wanted to, they could've alleviated the situation and chances are Tobirama probably wouldn't end up being blamed for Uchiha's fate. It's like the snowball at the top of the mountain that turned into an avalanche by the time it rolled downhill. I just happen to be more forgiving of people who make mistakes and less so when people do it on purpose with an intent to malice.
    Well guilt exist whether one intends for something to happen or not. Like for instances, being involved in a bank robbery where someone gets shot. Even if you're just the getaway driver, you're still seen as guilty as the guy who pulled the trigger.

    As for being hated, that's basically due to his personality and attitude. He doesn't appear at all caring like Hashirama and the other Hokages, but more like Danzo with the whole greater good argument. None of the other Hokages acted so militant in their role. Hashirama is basically Naruto/Jiraiya, Minato was cool but also caring enough to even give advice to an enemy, Sarutobi was fatherly, and Tsunade a slacker. Being like Danzo does not really help make someone endearing, especially someone who had already been made questionable by creating an "evil" technique like Edo Tensei. Not all that hard for people to imagine him being more corrupt then he was actually shown. And as been mentioned previously, his prejudice against the Uchiha doesn't help any when a thing was made of them being a loving family even before recent chapters. Hard to side with him after seeing parents willing give their life for their children. Also, he hasn't exactly been fun. Madara's far worst, but the way he acts makes him so enjoyable to see, especially when he's trolling his opponents.

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  10. #323
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    @Rikudou King
    That's pretty much what I wanted to learn from this discussion. I can accept people just disliking the guy for his character. It's not like I'm a fan of Tobirama or anything, but when chapter 619 came out I noticed a lot of hatred directed at him in the discussion/prediction thread etc. more specifically the 1st few posts of this thread calling him racist and facist without really explaining why, considering his persecution was supposedly motivated by the belief in the "curse of the Uchiha" requiring action rather than simple bigoted hatred of the clan. All those people have strangely gone silent leaving it to you and M3J to explain it to me . I have to say I learned a lot from all this back and forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    Well guilt exist whether one intends for something to happen or not. Like for instances, being involved in a bank robbery where someone gets shot. Even if you're just the getaway driver, you're still seen as guilty as the guy who pulled the trigger.
    I don't agree with that though. I think the example you gave isn't exactly comparable either. It's more like a drug manufacturer making a drug to cure cancer being blamed for the death of a drug overdose by a user. Point being, the purpose of the drug's creation isn't what it was used for which led to the death. That's also why there are distinctions like manslaughter vs. murder (unfortunate circumstances vs malice). But that's a different topic altogether. Thanks for all the fun!
    Last edited by Anduren; February 19, 2013 at 01:28 AM.

  11. #324
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Racism and fascism don't exist. I mean, Uchiha is a clan, not a race. And if Tobirama was a fascist, I doubt even rest of Konoha would have been happy. Tobirama hasn't been mentioned in a negative way, other than the Edo Tensei creation and by Tobi. He's just probably been overshadowed by Hashirama and Hiruzen though, at least by Hiruzen's longevity and Hashirama's legendary power.

    I say he's bigoted because of the way he saw Uchiha, especially based on just Madara.

  12. #325
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    I say he's bigoted because of the way he saw Uchiha, especially based on just Madara.
    I'm kinda puzzled by this statement so I actually looked it up just to be sure because it didn't make much sense. According to the dictionary, bigoted means to be intolerant of a group of people based on ideas (paraphrasing). I can see that Tobirama didn't trust the Uchiha clan but how is that the same as being intolerant? Or are you using the term in some other context? Seeing the Uchiha a certain way doesn't say anything about intolerance towards them; it just exposes his prejudices.

    Wasn't it in fact Danzou's intolerance that led to the massacre where Sarutobi wanted a peaceful end?
    Last edited by Anduren; February 19, 2013 at 10:54 AM.

  13. #326
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    The fact that he moved them far from the village and the way he talks about them shows he's quite intolerant of them, but kept them for their power.

    Dunno, could have been Danzou's desire for the Sharingan that led to the massacre as well.

  14. #327
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    The fact that he moved them far from the village and the way he talks about them shows he's quite intolerant of them, but kept them for their power.
    So you just don't buy the "curse of the Uchiha" reasoning for it then? If you think Tobirama did it just because he doesn't like the Uchiha clan, your reason for believing he's intolerant would make sense.

  15. #328
    MangaHelper 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member Hakuteiken's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Tobirama doesn't have to love the Uchiha personally. As long as he treated them equally, that would be good. I don't know how to put it either way, to be honest. Obito's perspective is already biased, but how come Orochimaru knows about it so clearly, I wonder. He shouldn't even see Tobirama alive or even if he did, he should have been a toddler at that time.

  16. #329
    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Maybe I'm wrong in my judgement, but even though I never saw Tobirama show any love for the Uchiha, I didn't see him particularly hate them just for being Uchiha either. Treating them equally would indeed be a good idea if, when all things are considered, they were truly equal. For example, all persons are created equal in terms of a person's life, but for practical purposes, you can't expect a 2 year old to cook or a man to give birth. If the Uchiha clan had inherent strengths and weaknesses, then isn't it right for its leaders to nurture their strength and try to manage their weaknesses? Naturally, its questionable how to go about it and Tobirama's way may or may not have been the best. But regardless, is the concept of doing that (i.e. grouping people based on strengths/weaknesses and treating them differently based on needs/wants) wrong or bigoted from the perspective of leadership?
    Last edited by Anduren; February 19, 2013 at 11:47 AM.

  17. #330
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    So you just don't buy the "curse of the Uchiha" reasoning for it then? If you think Tobirama did it just because he doesn't like the Uchiha clan, your reason for believing he's intolerant would make sense.
    The "curse of the Uchiha" reasoning could be true, but Tobirama kept bringing up Madara whenever someone pointed out his bigotry or negative views towards Uchiha. I'm sure he didn't do it just because he disliked the Uchiha, but he didn't exactly show that he was capable of being fair either. Out of all the hokage, only Tobirama showed to have any kind of trouble with them, and I'm pretty sure the Uchiha were in no way as bad of a term with Konoha or the higher-ups. Majority of the Uchiha anyway.

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