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Translations: Gintama 515 by kewl0210
1. Orochimaru said that because he knew Sasuke wanted power for revenge. He wanted to kill Itachi for what Itachi did to Sasuke's clan. Sasuke didn't seek power for power, he sought power because Itachi was just that damn powerful.
2. No idea why Itachi would say that, especially when Itachi's strength never came from hatred, as far as we saw. Maybe this was before Itachi was planned to be good?
3. I doubt it, considering Sasuke already did activate that special chakra on the night of the Massacre.
4. That was Sasuke though, and we know why he had sinister/evil chakra. Even then, he didn't attack innocent people.
5. That was after the massacre, if I recall? When Sasuke after that night vowed to do anything it takes to get the power needed to kill Itachi. Once again, it was an event that made Sasuke full of hatred, just like how Pain killing JIraiya and attacking Konoha made Naruto hate Pain/Nagato so much, but in this case, both men took different path. Naruto had Jiraiya to show him the right path while Sasuke had no one.
I don't think Sasuke made as much of a conscious choice. Sasuke was actually considering Kakashi's words, but then the Sound 4 attacked Sasuke and convinced him to leave because of how weak he was, and what Orochimaru would do for his power. And so far, only Sasuke and Madara have been seen to have the curse. Even then, Sasuke hasn't been wholly affected yet, considering that he's not one-track mind.
Sasuke is a bad example to use here as he was traumatized horribly and lost all the things he loved dearly. If same happened to Naruto, then he'd turn evil too, or go the same route without anyone to guide him. Though ironically, you can't ever say that Sasuke was an outcast, like Naruto, he just chose to be an outcast..
All of those explanations for each case you gave are valid. But that's still getting away from the point by explaining it away. The whole reason that most Uchiha were nice people and didn't turn out like Sasuke and Madara is because it takes extreme circumstances to push them over the edge. Of course, extreme circumstances can push anyone over the edge, like Gaara. But the difference is how the bloodline limit supposedly affects the person.
- According to Tobirama, "When an Uchiha that has known love loses it, it turns into an even stronger hate and changes that person." This much, we can say is the case for most anyone (Uchiha or not).
- But then he says "The Sharingan aligns with the person's feelings and quickly makes the person stronger... together with the hatred in their hearts." This is actually the trap.
- "Almost all of the ones who experience strong feelings are captured by darkness and turn evil. The deeper their darkness becomes, the more powerful their eyes get, and it's impossible to handle them." Almost meaning not everyone (exceptions like Itachi).
When Tobi talks to Kakashi and Naruto (chapter 462), he says that as Sasuke's friend and teacher they didn't understand him at all. Pages later he says "he had no choice. This is the hate-filled destiny of the Uchiha clan." Chances are, if Kakashi actually knew about the "curse of the Uchiha" and took it seriously like Tobirama did, he would've also taken Sasuke's hatred and drive for revenge more seriously when he went to lecture Sasuke just before the Sound 4 showed up.
Anyways, I used Sasuke as the example because his life is documented more than any of the other Uchihas in the manga so there's fewer things to assume. It'd have been helpful if we had a clearer picture of Itachi's and/or Shisui's lives to compare with and see how they turned out to be powerful without becoming hateful.
The contrast I'm drawing though, is that other people like Naruto and Gaara, while they grew powerful and hateful at some point, they didn't derive their power from hate or hate from their power. Gaara actually changed his ways when he realized that the power of friendship is stronger than that of hatred. This hate being linked to the Uchiha has just been a recurring theme that's been hinted at... is all I was pointing out. Certainly I didn't write the manga, I just read it.
Last edited by Anduren; February 20, 2013 at 10:25 PM.
I think Kakashi did take Sasuke's hatred and desire for revenge seriously, but he thought relating to Sasuke and reminding him that Sasuke still had people who cared about him would work. And it probably would have if it weren't for Sound 4, as Sasuke calmed down a lot. I mean, even in Part I you could see how Sasuke slowly changed from a lone player to someone who also was confident Naruto was reliable and would help. I don't think bloodline limit affects anyone any differently, or rather, if it really does.
I'm not sure if it gets impossible, though. It seems Obito and Madara are the only ones who've been impossible to handle. And despite Sharingan aligning with a person's feelings or makin them stronger, Sasuke still had problems fighting Itachi, could barely beat Bee, and couldn't beat Raikage. The hatred being like a power would work though, when Sasuke broke out of Danzou's immobilizing seal when his hatred increased a level.
But Tobi is the reason why Sasuke went on his hate-filled path. Had Tobi not gotten Sasuke, then Sasuke wouldn't have sought revenge on Konoha, he would have been happy knowing he finally killed Itachi and got revenge for Uchiha. Sasuke had a choice, just as ITachi did, as Madara did, as Naruto did. But Sasuke, like Madara, made the wrong choice.
Love can make one powerful as well. Look at Naruto, he's the prime example. Or look at how Jiraiya got the willpower to bring himself back to life, or how Sakura grew the balls to protect Sasuke. Hatred and love give people power - whether it's Sasuke, Naruto, Hashirama, or Madara.
the Uchiha didn't necessarily derive their power from hate either, or hate from their power. From what we see of Madara, he didn't originally get power from hate, but it was to protect the Uchiha in a combat-ridden era. Same with Hashirama, he got stronger to protect Senju.
I understand what you're saying... Its not that I'm disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that its something Kishimoto seems to have written into the story. Whether it makes sense or not, that's the direction he has taken to the plot. I'm just reading the story as an observer, not as someone invested in one group of people or another or one person or another being right or wrong or justified in their way or not. The author decided that the Uchiha clan had a bloodline limit that works in such a way and he claimed through Tobi that there's such a thing as a "hate filled destiny/curse of the Uchiha" then he follows up later with Tobirama explaining what it actually means. Whether it's right or not/makes sense or not isn't for me to judge because if Kishimoto says this is his explanation for whats happening then we just gotta accept it.
But until it ends up being revealed that the so called "curse of the Uchiha" is actually a superstition, the writer gets to decide if he's going to blame Sasuke or any other Uchiha character's hate and/or power is linked to the curse or not. All we can do in the meantime is try to make sense of his story.
If you interpret the events of the story differently, then naturally, it can be seen in other ways (like explaining the reasoning behind Sasuke's life that you did). And it's valid based on the interpretation that you use. I'm always interested in hearing alternate interpretations since its not like my way of seeing it is the only way, and I like to learn how other people see things. But I'm just assuming that if the story literally says that Sasuke chose hatred because of some curse that runs in his clan, then it's probably true just because the author chose to write the story that way.
Last edited by Anduren; February 20, 2013 at 11:47 PM.
The story could be interpreted differently though. YOu're showin your side of the story, and I'm showing my side of the interpretation. I'm not invested in one group either, but I'm annoyed with how people tend to gang up against Uchiha blindly.
It's not necessarily Kishi's explanation though. It's what he wants us to think, and he could be using that to describe Tobirama's character as well. It's just weird that the Curse of the Uchiha exists when there's only been two, three at best, counts of Uchiha being cursed with hatred.
That's pretty much what I was trying to say, only that when I saw this thread I saw everyone hating on Tobirama for some reason. I was just interested to know the reasoning behind it. Personal dislikes I can understand (though I was still curious about those reasonings too), but people seemed to blame him for an incident when he wasn't alive at the time to be able to make a difference when the coup was imminent (and the people who were responsible and could've stopped it just escalated it instead).
I've seen people unreasonably hating the Uchiha clan too in other threads so I can understand where you're coming from. I also sympathize with the Uchiha clan for reasons I wont mention since I don't like revealing personal experiences openly online even as a claim in having experience on some subject; but truly, for the sake of enjoying the manga, I like to keep my options open and consider all possibilities without jumping to conclusions about any one character or clan and sticking by it to the end.
You're also right about the part about "what he (Kishimoto) wants us to think" in the progression of the plot. That's why I said if it turns out that the curse is just a superstition, then that will change the circumstances. I did say in my very 1st post that my opinion is subject to change . Considering its a story being told, I would think that being able to mislead the audience by selectively dishing out info makes for a good storyteller.
For the sake of discussion though, I've been playing devil's advocate to some degree, to challenge people to try to see the other side of the argument but it seems most people just want to blast out what they think and put down the opposing argument without even considering it or explaining themselves sufficiently. Its kinda sad because people could learn so much from a discussion just by not being so subjective.
If I gave the impression that I was taking some side or blindly hating the Uchiha, you just misunderstood my motives. I just wanted a healthy educational discussion.
Last edited by Anduren; February 21, 2013 at 12:21 AM.
There's nothing suggesting that the reason the previous generation of Uchiha's were only strong because of Izanagi. Considering what we've seen of it, it's hardly some instant win against a skill ninja. And while I'm hardly Tsunade's biggest fan, that's not much of a comparison because Tsunade isn't a fighter.
Saying it doesn't make it a lie and we knew that at that time, with nothing to suggest otherwise.
Though, I'm not sure if I was blaming Tobirama or not, but he could have played a part by passing on his ideas to the advisors.
I noticed though that a lot of fans seem to have a hard time swallowing the "curse of the Uchiha" idea that came up in chapter 619 mainly because there's plenty of evidence against it from the actual manga from how the Uchiha clan had been portrayed (specially in the 1st half of the story). Also, Orochimaru confirming Tobirama's insincerity in dealing with the Uchiha clan made him seem like someone that can't be trusted. Maybe it's this inconsistency in the story (portrayal of the Uchiha vs. explanation of the sharingan) that's led to the diverging points of view.
Last edited by Anduren; February 21, 2013 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Reflections
Hm - I don't see Tobirama that way. I see him as a very practical, realistic man who tried to deal with "emotional" problems with pure reason.
I have experience with this. I am am pretty logical person, and I do not as a general rule make decisions based on my emotions. From personal observation, I have noted that people who make their decisions primarily based on emotions are much more prone to make a TERRIBLE decisions that lead them to experience unnecessary pain, sorrow, loss, and regret. I've seen it time and time again. Emotion-based decision making leaves people vulnerable to scams, hasty decisions, dead-end traps, and many other problems that a little common sense and logic would have prevented. All too often I've had to help people recover from the consequences of decisions they made emotionally.
So I have a lot of sympathy for Tobirama. He's a lot like me. If I was in his position, I would probably have done things very similarly to him. The Uchiha - to my mind - would be a people who were "high risk". As a volunteer in my church, I've seen people like that. They're nice folks, but they always seem to have problems. When you hunker down with them and try to figure those problems out, 99 times out of 100 those problems are self-created as a result of emotion-based decision making. So you try your best to keep an eye on those 'high risk' people, and prevent them from causing themselves harm.
Where Tobirama made the mistake was in his solution. Instead of "teaching" the Uchiha, he tried to "wall them away" from risks. I can see the practical nature of his choice. There are some people I wished I could wave a magic wand over and put them in a bubble so they couldn't make the bad decisions I knew (knew mind you!) that they were going to make. It would be so much easier if you could just put those "high risk" people in a crib and not allow them to do anything. It solves so many problems...
But the better solution is to TEACH those people, not to isolate them. That's what Naruto's plan is. To teach people to be better rather than walling them up. When you teach people a better way, you don't have to isolate them (which is stripping them of freedom anyway - which is always a bad idea). You want people using their freedom in smart ways, not locked in a room making bad decisions. It takes more work. It takes patience and education. But it is a better way.
i think tobirama's character design is cool...but to me...he's a smug lil'shit(even worse than sasuke)
---------- Post added at 07:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 PM ----------
It wasn't even a Senju that ordered/endorsed/allowed the extermination of the Uchiha. It was a bunch of crotchety old normals. Danzou, Koharu/that other guy, and Hiruzen, respectively.
when Haku spoke about those with Bloodline Limits. And not sure how all the Uchiha's being shown living in one area doesn't show the segregation issue. We also didn't know about any coup until much later, along with the apparent reason being the Kyuubi attack.
The Senju (Tobirama) laid the groundwork and set up the standard that got followed. Without his actions, there's really no reason the rivalry would have continued. Heck, had he showed a little more tack, Madara probably wouldn't have run off and none of the current events would have happen.
And no, that's the entire point. All of Tobirama's "claims" and "reasons" were complete crap. Even Madara shows that. Madara didn't just "go crazy". There was a specific reason behind his decision to turn against the village, and it had nothing to do with his eyes or blood. And seeing how the Uhciha's went 50-some years without any sign of an issue and only turn in response to an actual act against them, that shows how full of crap he was. We haven't seen a single Uchiha that has just "flown off the handle". We seen the opposite, them setting up rules and making techniques all to keep each other in line. Obito? Took the death of his "girl" and manipulation from Madara to turn bad. Sasuke? Took the massacre of his clan and manipulation by Itachi, then usage by Orochimaru, and then more usage by Obito to finally go crazy and even then the most he did was kill a couple of samurai. Heck, the one Uchiha who decided to care more for the village then his clan has a bigger body count then Sasuke. Fact is that Tobirama's claim was false and there was no way he didn't know that. He had a first row seat to Madara giving in to Hashirama, right after the death of Izuna. He sure flew off the handle keeping Hashirama from killing himself and surrendering. More importantly, there wasn't any reason for Tobirama to act the way he did. What was he so scared of? Madara? Hashirama already proved to be the superior fighter seemingly multiple times. The Uchiha clan? They were coming over to the Senju side well before Madara even surrendered and ALL of them refused to go along with Madara afterward. There wasn't any reason they needed to be watched or prepared for. It's hardly as if a single Uchiha was gonna suddenly gain power equal to Madara right out of the blue. They will be pretty obvious without having to be stalked.
Had Tobirama just kept his issues to himself, Madara would have never run off and thus none of the current events would have happened.