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Thread: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

  1. #361
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    1. Orochimaru said that because he knew Sasuke wanted power for revenge. He wanted to kill Itachi for what Itachi did to Sasuke's clan. Sasuke didn't seek power for power, he sought power because Itachi was just that damn powerful.

    2. No idea why Itachi would say that, especially when Itachi's strength never came from hatred, as far as we saw. Maybe this was before Itachi was planned to be good?

    3. I doubt it, considering Sasuke already did activate that special chakra on the night of the Massacre.

    4. That was Sasuke though, and we know why he had sinister/evil chakra. Even then, he didn't attack innocent people.

    5. That was after the massacre, if I recall? When Sasuke after that night vowed to do anything it takes to get the power needed to kill Itachi. Once again, it was an event that made Sasuke full of hatred, just like how Pain killing JIraiya and attacking Konoha made Naruto hate Pain/Nagato so much, but in this case, both men took different path. Naruto had Jiraiya to show him the right path while Sasuke had no one.

    I don't think Sasuke made as much of a conscious choice. Sasuke was actually considering Kakashi's words, but then the Sound 4 attacked Sasuke and convinced him to leave because of how weak he was, and what Orochimaru would do for his power. And so far, only Sasuke and Madara have been seen to have the curse. Even then, Sasuke hasn't been wholly affected yet, considering that he's not one-track mind.


    Sasuke is a bad example to use here as he was traumatized horribly and lost all the things he loved dearly. If same happened to Naruto, then he'd turn evil too, or go the same route without anyone to guide him. Though ironically, you can't ever say that Sasuke was an outcast, like Naruto, he just chose to be an outcast..

  2. #362
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    All of those explanations for each case you gave are valid. But that's still getting away from the point by explaining it away. The whole reason that most Uchiha were nice people and didn't turn out like Sasuke and Madara is because it takes extreme circumstances to push them over the edge. Of course, extreme circumstances can push anyone over the edge, like Gaara. But the difference is how the bloodline limit supposedly affects the person.

    - According to Tobirama, "When an Uchiha that has known love loses it, it turns into an even stronger hate and changes that person." This much, we can say is the case for most anyone (Uchiha or not).

    - But then he says "The Sharingan aligns with the person's feelings and quickly makes the person stronger... together with the hatred in their hearts." This is actually the trap.

    - "Almost all of the ones who experience strong feelings are captured by darkness and turn evil. The deeper their darkness becomes, the more powerful their eyes get, and it's impossible to handle them." Almost meaning not everyone (exceptions like Itachi).

    When Tobi talks to Kakashi and Naruto (chapter 462), he says that as Sasuke's friend and teacher they didn't understand him at all. Pages later he says "he had no choice. This is the hate-filled destiny of the Uchiha clan." Chances are, if Kakashi actually knew about the "curse of the Uchiha" and took it seriously like Tobirama did, he would've also taken Sasuke's hatred and drive for revenge more seriously when he went to lecture Sasuke just before the Sound 4 showed up.

    Anyways, I used Sasuke as the example because his life is documented more than any of the other Uchihas in the manga so there's fewer things to assume. It'd have been helpful if we had a clearer picture of Itachi's and/or Shisui's lives to compare with and see how they turned out to be powerful without becoming hateful.

    The contrast I'm drawing though, is that other people like Naruto and Gaara, while they grew powerful and hateful at some point, they didn't derive their power from hate or hate from their power. Gaara actually changed his ways when he realized that the power of friendship is stronger than that of hatred. This hate being linked to the Uchiha has just been a recurring theme that's been hinted at... is all I was pointing out. Certainly I didn't write the manga, I just read it.
    Last edited by Anduren; February 20, 2013 at 10:25 PM.

  3. #363
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    I think Kakashi did take Sasuke's hatred and desire for revenge seriously, but he thought relating to Sasuke and reminding him that Sasuke still had people who cared about him would work. And it probably would have if it weren't for Sound 4, as Sasuke calmed down a lot. I mean, even in Part I you could see how Sasuke slowly changed from a lone player to someone who also was confident Naruto was reliable and would help. I don't think bloodline limit affects anyone any differently, or rather, if it really does.

    I'm not sure if it gets impossible, though. It seems Obito and Madara are the only ones who've been impossible to handle. And despite Sharingan aligning with a person's feelings or makin them stronger, Sasuke still had problems fighting Itachi, could barely beat Bee, and couldn't beat Raikage. The hatred being like a power would work though, when Sasuke broke out of Danzou's immobilizing seal when his hatred increased a level.

    But Tobi is the reason why Sasuke went on his hate-filled path. Had Tobi not gotten Sasuke, then Sasuke wouldn't have sought revenge on Konoha, he would have been happy knowing he finally killed Itachi and got revenge for Uchiha. Sasuke had a choice, just as ITachi did, as Madara did, as Naruto did. But Sasuke, like Madara, made the wrong choice.

    Love can make one powerful as well. Look at Naruto, he's the prime example. Or look at how Jiraiya got the willpower to bring himself back to life, or how Sakura grew the balls to protect Sasuke. Hatred and love give people power - whether it's Sasuke, Naruto, Hashirama, or Madara.

    the Uchiha didn't necessarily derive their power from hate either, or hate from their power. From what we see of Madara, he didn't originally get power from hate, but it was to protect the Uchiha in a combat-ridden era. Same with Hashirama, he got stronger to protect Senju.

  4. #364
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    I understand what you're saying... Its not that I'm disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that its something Kishimoto seems to have written into the story. Whether it makes sense or not, that's the direction he has taken to the plot. I'm just reading the story as an observer, not as someone invested in one group of people or another or one person or another being right or wrong or justified in their way or not. The author decided that the Uchiha clan had a bloodline limit that works in such a way and he claimed through Tobi that there's such a thing as a "hate filled destiny/curse of the Uchiha" then he follows up later with Tobirama explaining what it actually means. Whether it's right or not/makes sense or not isn't for me to judge because if Kishimoto says this is his explanation for whats happening then we just gotta accept it.

    But until it ends up being revealed that the so called "curse of the Uchiha" is actually a superstition, the writer gets to decide if he's going to blame Sasuke or any other Uchiha character's hate and/or power is linked to the curse or not. All we can do in the meantime is try to make sense of his story.

    If you interpret the events of the story differently, then naturally, it can be seen in other ways (like explaining the reasoning behind Sasuke's life that you did). And it's valid based on the interpretation that you use. I'm always interested in hearing alternate interpretations since its not like my way of seeing it is the only way, and I like to learn how other people see things. But I'm just assuming that if the story literally says that Sasuke chose hatred because of some curse that runs in his clan, then it's probably true just because the author chose to write the story that way.
    Last edited by Anduren; February 20, 2013 at 11:47 PM.

  5. #365
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    The story could be interpreted differently though. YOu're showin your side of the story, and I'm showing my side of the interpretation. I'm not invested in one group either, but I'm annoyed with how people tend to gang up against Uchiha blindly.

    It's not necessarily Kishi's explanation though. It's what he wants us to think, and he could be using that to describe Tobirama's character as well. It's just weird that the Curse of the Uchiha exists when there's only been two, three at best, counts of Uchiha being cursed with hatred.

  6. #366
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    That's pretty much what I was trying to say, only that when I saw this thread I saw everyone hating on Tobirama for some reason. I was just interested to know the reasoning behind it. Personal dislikes I can understand (though I was still curious about those reasonings too), but people seemed to blame him for an incident when he wasn't alive at the time to be able to make a difference when the coup was imminent (and the people who were responsible and could've stopped it just escalated it instead).

    I've seen people unreasonably hating the Uchiha clan too in other threads so I can understand where you're coming from. I also sympathize with the Uchiha clan for reasons I wont mention since I don't like revealing personal experiences openly online even as a claim in having experience on some subject; but truly, for the sake of enjoying the manga, I like to keep my options open and consider all possibilities without jumping to conclusions about any one character or clan and sticking by it to the end.

    You're also right about the part about "what he (Kishimoto) wants us to think" in the progression of the plot. That's why I said if it turns out that the curse is just a superstition, then that will change the circumstances. I did say in my very 1st post that my opinion is subject to change . Considering its a story being told, I would think that being able to mislead the audience by selectively dishing out info makes for a good storyteller.

    For the sake of discussion though, I've been playing devil's advocate to some degree, to challenge people to try to see the other side of the argument but it seems most people just want to blast out what they think and put down the opposing argument without even considering it or explaining themselves sufficiently. Its kinda sad because people could learn so much from a discussion just by not being so subjective.

    If I gave the impression that I was taking some side or blindly hating the Uchiha, you just misunderstood my motives. I just wanted a healthy educational discussion.
    Last edited by Anduren; February 21, 2013 at 12:21 AM.

  7. #367
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    It wasn't a fight, they got one-shotted, one-paneled, whatever you want to call it
    Again there is a reason imo why Itachi thought they were pathetic.

    The one who grew in the war was undeniably stronger, if only for Izanagi spam former Uchihas >>>>> latter Uchihas.
    We also saw the difference between Tobirama's base skills and Tsunade's
    The conflict panned away and the only thing shown were the Sounds of fighting. That's not how one-shots happen. And seeing how Itachi's entire personality at that time was a bluff...

    There's nothing suggesting that the reason the previous generation of Uchiha's were only strong because of Izanagi. Considering what we've seen of it, it's hardly some instant win against a skill ninja. And while I'm hardly Tsunade's biggest fan, that's not much of a comparison because Tsunade isn't a fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    In Konoha? Not a chance in hell, will of fire remember ?
    As for leaving, that would raise questions and give Uchihas simpathy from the people, it was a non-belligerant act that would show the village they weren't the diseased clan they thought
    And Hiruzen would've been in a better situation to negotiate without the prospect of a civil war incoming.

    That was what every mother would say to her son
    And that's exactly my point, now we do, at the time we didn't
    Will of fire would apply to every loyal Konoha ninja, including the Uchiha clan. Leaving is punishable by death, that was made clearly several times. And it wouldn't prevent the council from making up some lie about why they left. Sarutobi wouldn't have been in any better position then he already was.

    Saying it doesn't make it a lie and we knew that at that time, with nothing to suggest otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Considering Kotoamatsukami was taken before the massacre, Itachi knew about it regardless, as such Danzou would be extra careful in using it, expecially since Itachi would know about it and the Council's influence isn't as great as the Daimyo or the Jounins when a Hokage is appointed, apparently, considering they only come up with names.
    If a Jounin would make Itachi's name like Shikaku did for Kakashi, I'm sure there wouldn't be much the Council would do, if the Hokage and the Jounins would back him up
    Itachi knowing out doesn't mean he would have been able to counter it when it was used, especially in a situation where he wouldn't have been present. The council was influential enough to not only put up Danzo's name, but to disregard the choice made by both the Daimyo and Shikaku, without either being able to say otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Kinda happened with Obito and Kamui
    Not really. Obito got several unique enhancements and personal knowledge of Madara's techniques in addition to his MS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    I still don't think though that most Uchiha were aware of the curse. The clan was always shown as proud of their bloodline ability. The sharingan by itself wasn't the problem here, but the fact that the bloodline puts them in a situation where ever increasing power is gained through ever increasing hate. Anyone who is confronted suddenly with the claim that their family was cursed and should be quarantined and put under observation would have a higher chance of not believing it if they weren't aware of the problem in the 1st place.
    That's not really true though. Aside from every ninjas we've seen being proud of their abilities, there's really nothing to show that the Uchiha's only grew strong due to hatred. For instants, Itachi is basically the strongest Uchiha behind Madara and he's hardly hateful. And Sasuke literally had to be forced/manipulated into living for hatred. If it was a natural condition, then it should have happen regardless. And even though Itachi and Orochimaru put him on that path, he didn't truly become evil til after meeting Obito. Before that, he was still a relatively decent ninja.

  8. #368
    MH Senpai 伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    That's pretty much what I was trying to say, only that when I saw this thread I saw everyone hating on Tobirama for some reason. I was just interested to know the reasoning behind it. Personal dislikes I can understand (though I was still curious about those reasonings too), but people seemed to blame him for an incident when he wasn't alive at the time to be able to make a difference when the coup was imminent (and the people who were responsible and could've stopped it just escalated it instead).

    I've seen people unreasonably hating the Uchiha clan too in other threads so I can understand where you're coming from. I also sympathize with the Uchiha clan for reasons I wont mention since I don't like revealing personal experiences openly online even as a claim in having experience on some subject; but truly, for the sake of enjoying the manga, I like to keep my options open and consider all possibilities without jumping to conclusions about any one character or clan and sticking by it to the end.

    You're also right about the part about "what he (Kishimoto) wants us to think" in the progression of the plot. That's why I said if it turns out that the curse is just a superstition, then that will change the circumstances. I did say in my very 1st post that my opinion is subject to change . Considering its a story being told, I would think that being able to mislead the audience by selectively dishing out info makes for a good storyteller.

    For the sake of discussion though, I've been playing devil's advocate to some degree, to challenge people to try to see the other side of the argument but it seems most people just want to blast out what they think and put down the opposing argument without even considering it or explaining themselves sufficiently. Its kinda sad because people could learn so much from a discussion just by not being so subjective.

    If I gave the impression that I was taking some side or blindly hating the Uchiha, you just misunderstood my motives. I just wanted a healthy educational discussion.
    I have no personal hatred for any character either, except for Tobi and Danzou because of what they did and do. And there's nothing wrong with talking/discussing stuff either. I only get annoyed when it's constantly something stupid or rude, like someone else whose name I can't mention constantly does.

    Though, I'm not sure if I was blaming Tobirama or not, but he could have played a part by passing on his ideas to the advisors.

  9. #369
    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rikudou King View Post
    That's not really true though. Aside from every ninjas we've seen being proud of their abilities, there's really nothing to show that the Uchiha's only grew strong due to hatred. For instants, Itachi is basically the strongest Uchiha behind Madara and he's hardly hateful. And Sasuke literally had to be forced/manipulated into living for hatred. If it was a natural condition, then it should have happen regardless. And even though Itachi and Orochimaru put him on that path, he didn't truly become evil til after meeting Obito. Before that, he was still a relatively decent ninja.
    This is true, which is why I said it would be nice if we knew more of Itachi's and/or Shisui's lives as a contrast to see how they became so powerful without being hateful. I also wasn't saying Sasuke was evil, just that throughout the manga, it was mentioned that he was a vessel of hatred (through no fault of his own except maybe choosing to embrace it in the end). Chances are, if he didn't run into Orochimaru in the chunin exam, he may have recovered from his Avenger attitude the same way Naruto got over his loneliness by Iruka's (and later team 7's) friendship. But if Kishimoto's intension was to use the "curse of the Uchiha" as the excuse for how Sasuke turned out that way, then even if Sasuke's case can be explained in other ways, I'd have to just go by what he claims unless it later turns out that the "curse" was just a superstition and he was misleading us in the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    Though, I'm not sure if I was blaming Tobirama or not, but he could have played a part by passing on his ideas to the advisors.
    This may very well turn out to be true as Rikudou King also pointed out a few pages back. The only way to have actual proof to back this up would be for us to maybe see some flashbacks of when Hiruzen and Danzou were younger under Tobirama's team; or if Sasuke ends up interrogating Homura and Koharu and they spill the beans about getting their ideas from Tobirama. Personally I would like to see some flashbacks of the earlier days but I dunno how likely that is. Until then though, the similarity between the council's outlook and Tobirama's is circumstantial evidence since they weren't obligated to follow his way after he died (I don't think Hiruzen did) and it wasn't explicitly mentioned that they were doing things that way because they're following Tobirama's will (as opposed to Hashirama's will which Hiruzen and Tsunade were following).

    I noticed though that a lot of fans seem to have a hard time swallowing the "curse of the Uchiha" idea that came up in chapter 619 mainly because there's plenty of evidence against it from the actual manga from how the Uchiha clan had been portrayed (specially in the 1st half of the story). Also, Orochimaru confirming Tobirama's insincerity in dealing with the Uchiha clan made him seem like someone that can't be trusted. Maybe it's this inconsistency in the story (portrayal of the Uchiha vs. explanation of the sharingan) that's led to the diverging points of view.
    Last edited by Anduren; February 21, 2013 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Reflections

  10. #370
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    Re: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduren View Post
    This is true, which is why I said it would be nice if we knew more of Itachi's and/or Shisui's lives as a contrast to see how they became so powerful without being hateful. I also wasn't saying Sasuke was evil, just that throughout the manga, it was mentioned that he was a vessel of hatred (through no fault of his own except maybe choosing to embrace it in the end). Chances are, if he didn't run into Orochimaru in the chunin exam, he may have recovered from his Avenger attitude the same way Naruto got over his loneliness by Iruka's (and later team 7's) friendship. But if Kishimoto's intension was to use the "curse of the Uchiha" as the excuse for how Sasuke turned out that way, then even if Sasuke's case can be explained in other ways, I'd have to just go by what he claims unless it later turns out that the "curse" was just a superstition and he was misleading us in the story.
    But we really don't need to know their entire lives to know they became strong without being hateful. They same with the rest of the clan. If they were fulled of hateful people, they wouldn't have been so revered and loved by the citizens of Konoha and the council wouldn't have had to use separate events to act against them. And that was my point about Sasuke. The "curse" was specifically said to be the results of an Uchiha seeing the death of their loved ones, awakening the Sharingan, and becoming evil/hateful. Sasuke did not become hateful because he witness his clan's death, he became that way because he was literally forced into it by Itachi. And even then, he had begun to change before Itachi returned and did it again. Without Itachi purposely manipulating him into it, Sasuke wouldn't have become that way.

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