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Yes, but he also continued to support the Uchiha completely after that fight when he decided to put the village above everything else, which does imply that the Uchiha were not bad. I don't get how Tobirama was justified when the Uchiha joined the Senju, forced Madara to accept the treaty, unanimously voted for Hashirama, and turned their backs on Madara because they thought he was power hungry. Nothing validates Tobirama's paranoia other than the fact that he was scared of another Madara rising - someone who was the product of war and losses and as result, became paranoid for his clan that stabbed him in the back.Quote:
Just as I don't get how Tobirama is to be blamed for what Danzou did and the extermination of the clan when he was dead for decades.
If there was another madara I doubt the end result would have been any different. I mean, you had madara who pulled that and then hashirama's plan was to have people who might turn on the village be given big positions as a way to keep them in check. The uchiha were ultimately not trusted by anyone at all, not just the kage for that matter. As we have seen the kage do not have absolute power in the village, its not like tobirama could have just pulled what he did on his own. Heck, its not even a senju thing once that comes in consideration. Perhaps under different circumstances he could have had things gone another way however if he hadn't had support he would have been unable to do it altogether.
What about the Senju? They were the only clan who were beating the Uchiha decisively. They'd be a far more dangerous clan and seem to have as much issues, with Hashirama's dad being murderous. I'm sure the problem isn't the Uchiha, but the bias against the Uchiha, whether from the manga or from members.
Hashirama was considerably different as he wanted the Uchiha to have official position, not just become police and apparently be resented.
But would there be another Madara? Madara is a result of growing up in an era of war filled with losses of his loved ones, and his betrayal towards Konoha was the result of leftover ideas from the war, that the Uchiha would somehow be exterminated by Tobirama or the Senju after Hashirama steps down. Hashirama's plan, according to the translation you provided, was to give good people like Kagami an official position, not any Uchiha.Quote:
Who didn't trust the Uchiha? As far as I recall, only Tobirama and the elders decades after did not trust the Uchiha, and it seems Danzou may have wanted the Sharingan more than anything. We have no idea if it was Tobirama's sole decision or not as we haven't seen his council. I doubt Tobirama needed or cared about support as he seems to have had the ultimate power.
If Madara didn't come to the conclusion that Tobirama would have hurt the Uchiha in some way, he likely would not have turned rogue.
In aegun dono's translation it would seem like madara supporters were already there before the creation of the police force. The entire government did not trust the uchiha, it wasn't just tobirama. Heck, even hashirama thought there was a pretty strong chance that the uchiha will turn on the village which is why he had his own alternative to what tobirama did. Which sounds almost the same except that instead of police force it would have been a high office for uchiha regarded as dangerous.
Both Danzo and Sarutobi seemed surprised when Tobirama stated that he was to be Hokage. If it was already something in play, then they shouldn't have been surprised by it nor would Tobirama have had to mention it after already deciding to make his self-sacrifice. So by all acocunts, it was decided on the fly.
As far as we have seen, the council was the one to decide about Tsunade, Danzo, and Kakashi getting picked, while Sarutobi and Minato were directly picked by the reigning Hokage. If a select group is always the one choosing, then it's not really democratic.
Yes, but the other clans didn't just jump at the idea, it was pretty much out of necessity. The clans simply couldn't compete without forming villages. The Uchiha clan would've been a clan without a village, a clan with a powerful kekkai genkai and a lot of fans.Quote:
Sympathising with Madara, and outright leaving your clan are two different things. Yes, if I hear my name I might wish to hear what is being addressed, but that doesn't mean I spy on a conversation. The only reason to spy is if one's suspicious, likely from a lack of trust...Madara didn't trust Tobirama. So Madara randomly showing up without any intention of spying would be harder to notice than Madara actually trying to spy on them? Madara must be an awful shinobi.Quote:
I never said it was complete confinement, there isn't any confinement whatsoever to speak of. It is a more accurate portrayal based on Tobi's description, it was at that time that he suggested that they were "quarantined", that suggests some sort of actual confinement or limitations of movement. Those are the differences.Quote:
Tobirama made the point that he was the one that had to deal with potential threats to the village, I would think that points towards others being targeted too. The uchiha were probably simply the most important and largest group to not be trusted though.
Anyways, we have two versions of the story. If we go by tobi's account the police force was created and that resulted in the madara supporters, people who either wanted to leave of take over as far as I can tell. Then we have the version by tobirama and orochimaru which implies madara's supporters were there before the police. Hashirama had his own way to deal with them which hints at them being there before tobirama made it to kage. Taking in consideration the hashirama bit I would argue that obito tuned his facts a bit to make his story sound better. Tobirama's version of the story was not rejected by anyone there either (hashirama, sarutobi, minato or orochimaru at least) so I think we can take his words at least as far of what his perspective was as the actual truth.
Anyways, what I get from this is that the issue here is that even though the uchiha clan started out loyal to the village there were from the start some, a minority, which did not particularly approve of things were turning up. The uchiha did found the village along with the senju however as more people joined the senju were taking more charge and the uchiha lost influence due to the overwhelming support hashirama enjoyed. That along with madara's actions stirred the supporters. Hashirama thought to keep them in check via giving the important positions. Torimara thought to keep them in check via making the clan into the police force.
But Madara stopped Hashirama because he realized Hashirama was legit about wanting peace and alliance. Before that, Hashirama also looked like he wanted to truce when Izuna was seriously injured, but Izuna stopped Madara and said it was part of a plan or something (I forgot what) to take out the Uchiha. Did the village's leaders really see the respected leader of the Uchiha attempting a coup? Who are these leaders? I don't remember seeing any leader but Hashirama and Tobirama, and no one from Konoha back then commented on Madara.
All we know about the image Madara had back then was that he was insanely powerful and evil, at least in Oonoki's point of view. Tobi also stated Madara was seen by his clan as someone who coveted power and aimed for fighting because of his objections and wanting the clan to leave the village out of fear.
However, does the manga mention the supporters existing before or after Tobirama became a hokage? Tobi says that Madara supporters appeared after Tobirama became hokage and made moves to keep the Uchiha in check because they realized Madara was right.Quote:
Who is the entire government? Again, you keep mentioning others, but all the manga has shown us are Tobirama and Hashirama as leaders back then, no one else. Hashirama said there was a strong chance? I thought he said there could be some chance that another Madara could be created, but his way seems to have been better as the Uchiha truly did want peace and harmony.
If you did read the translation, you would see that Hashirama was talking about good Uchiha like Kagami, not Uchiha like Sasuke. Senju are just as dangerous too, they were the ones who wiped out an entire clan for power without any proof that the Uchiha did play a part in the Kyuubi being free and attacking the village.
Or, Tobirama was prejudiced that he thought the Senju were full of good people while the Uchiha were full of bad people with good eggs here and there, and thus he was probably nurturing another Madara with his flawed view.
But it doesn't mean they're finalized. They also had to vote to keep Danzou/Kakashi or get another hokage. Tsunade was not picked by the council though, it was Jiraiya who got picked and who convinced them to choose Tsunade. Plus, Minato and Sarutobi were popular enough to be voted in.
We have not seen the entire government structure but at least in recent times we have seen the hokage is far from absolute. In the current time we have seen tsunade answering to the other elders, danzo even got sai into naruto's team. Sarutobi also did not show absolute authority to those elders, they had their own influence and role to play. Hashirama was elected hokage and presumably so were tobirama, sarutobi, minato and tsunade (jonnin vote and all that). While we don't know what the structure was back in the day, tobirama did make a point that the village was going to be run democratically. Which does mean the hokage is far from an absolute power.
If we go by the translation I mention the implication is that the supporters were there before tobirama even was a kage. Otherwise hashirama having his own method to deal with potential madaras does not make sense nor does orochimaru's comment in that translation. In this case we have to pick which one was more reliable, tobi or tobirama. Tobi tweaked his story to manipulate sasuke, I doubt tobirama could have pulled that of considering the presence of other kages and orochimaru.
Senju did nothing whatsoever to actually wipe out the uchiha. Just look at the village leadership at the time. Sarutobi, the elders and danzo were not senju.
Sorry to jump in the discussion so suddenly and I may have missed if someone raised this question before ( 36 Pages ... ):
Hashirama was quick to blame Tobirama for giving Uchiha's police job and for edo tensie both. But at the same time Hashi's idea of alliance was inspired by Tobirama's idea:
Tobirama told Itama point blank that idea of revenge and continuation of war for it would lead to his death only. He doesn't come of as someone who would kill anyone just for the sake of it or for revenge. He might not have handled the problem well but why people think him as a bigot. Izuna pretty much died because he wanted to continue the war. Well, he wanted war he got it- cold as it may sound it was his decision to continue fighting and he lost fair and square.
One thing I have noticed in this manga is that story and opinions change according to character perspectives a lot of times... People say stuff which is not always 100% right even when they do not mean to fool. Zabuza was killed by Kakashi ( finally stabbed by thugs or whatever) but Mist nins recognize Sasuke as his killer when he attacked the kage meeting. Every narration is to be taken with a grain of salt.
Uchiha story was told slightly differently by Itachi, Obito and Hashi.... of them all an Edo Hashi is most likely to tell the truth at this stage. Remember an alive Madara is there to counter his story and he doesn't even know yet what else Madara has been up to yet.
Hashirama might have argued about giving police force to Uchiha alone ( on the grounds that other clans would be envious or angry) but in the end he couldn't come up with anything else to keep a lot of them happy.
Uchihas may have been given police force but I don't see why we should assume they were barred from official positions. Hashi and Tobirama's argument about it only indicates Hashi wanted them to give some higher position since very start to pacify them, while Tobirama decided to take it slow. Kagami seems to have died early or he may have gotten a higher position.
Both brothers had their reasons for their decisions. Hashi was driven by his friendship to Madara, while Tobirama was seeing them as a group which joined them only after his brother being willing to pay for his life for it. If Hashi had died that day would Tobirama and Madara be able to form an smooth alliance? Did Madara stop Hashi just because of friendship or to get more time to decide the next move. He had lost that particular battle already. If Hashi died despite defeating him there would be no alliance and Tobirama ( especially if he was as paranoid as people claim) could have killed him too in that condition under those circumstances.
Anyone who has lived in a political system where the government tried to act as a pacifist towards such a group or have tried to suppress them too much knows that both kind of policies have their pitfalls. Sometimes it needs very delicate handling and constant eye on such groups to deal with they current mood if nothing else.
Minato takes blame on his own early death and says if he was alive he probably would have figured out another way than Uchiha massacre.. But if he was alive Uchiha would not have been suspected of the plotting against village in the first place, or would they? As per my understanding problems arose after his death and kyuubi attack.
The police force failed to find the cause behind the attack or to talk to the hokage about possibilities. If konoha suspected them they were not entirely wrong about an uchiha being involved. Of course Uchihas were also not wrong completely since they never knew that Obito was alive either. But they didn't even consider the possibility, instead decided to start a coup as a reaction. All this while, Obito manipulated by Madara had set them up for this failure.
One can say some Uchihas didn't like the surveillance. But at the same time it's not like they trusted others themselves. Shisui and Itachi were supposed to be spy in ANBU for Uchiha.
If Tobirama had prohibited Uchiha from other jobs how come Itachi and Shisui or other Uchihas went on missions? How come Kagami was hanging out with Tobirama? Most of all how come Obito even wanted to be a Hokage? Why no one ever challenged his ambition or told him off? Even the adult reformed Obito seems to think he had a chance if he didn't lose track.
Madara is suddenly a misunderstood character now when he clearly couldn't make up his mind about choosing peace over revenge . He wanted Tobirama to die for killing Izuna but it was Izuna who wanted to continue fight. Tobirama just fnished it right there.
Izuna might have been alive if Madara had little more resolve and was sure he wanted the same peace as Hashirama. Hashirama shut Tobirama up when push came to shove and he really wanted to stop him. ( he raised chakra when Tobirama threatened Sasuke) But Madara couldn't do the same to Izuna and tell him to shut up and compromise when he asked not to stop fight in name of the dead shinobies on their side.
The ease with which rest of the Uchiha clan seem to have accepted the peace proposal and dumped Madara only emphasizes that barring a few Izuna and likes, most of them were also tired of war and wanted a compromise. They were just not powerful enough to influence the leaders who wanted to continue the fight. When they got an option they took it. Madara saw it as betrayal which Obito channeled too later on.
I saw some one saying that Tobi/obito lied about Kyuubi attack only. But he didn't tell him that Senjus proposed the truce on battle field and how Izuna had died correctly either. At the time Obito was telling Sasuke that story he was clutching his hand very hard. Even that was a lie since he was not Madara but acting up.
Itachi's version of stealing eye was not entirely true but nor was Tobi's. Izuna's eye were taken by Madara from his dead body. You cannot call it snatching without his will, seeing Izuna wanted to continue war but he didn't give it to his brother himself exactly. Tobi probably didn't know the exact details himself as Madara had told him what he wanted to tell him and nothing more.
Uchihas were trolled by their own members the most. Why blame other clans or the second hokage only for every problem? Why none of them ever tried to talk with Hiruzen and Tobirama straight away about the problems they were facing? if they succeeded in their coup what would have been the future of Konoha and Uchiha clan itself? Would the villagers accept such a clan as their leader after they have killed people from rest of the village? How would the new dynamics have worked for everyone? Would Uchihas respect the shinobies from losing side now on despite the increased dislike for themselves? Kill them all? Would other villages become more friendly to them now?
Tobirama may or may not have handled a clan which had too much power but it's funny when people think Madara was a saint somehow in all this and Tobirama the one with hatred. Madara wanted him dead. you can't blame Tobirama not to be very chirpy when Hashirama unilaterally decide that he wanted him to make Hokage as a personal gift.
It was Hashirama's personality which was bringing people together and it was Tobirama who gave the idea of settling down and supported him. Madara could have taken the position of second if he stayed. But after being offered the hokage position, hearing that no one else wanted him, was not nice and encouraging for him. BZ worked on his mixed feelings in he mean while.
If Tobirama encouraged hatred I doubt he would get Kagami or Shisui to support his cause no matter what. For he would not be able to cultivate nationalism in his followers in the first place by hating them. If Uchihas were barred from top positions Obito would know and not talk about dream of Hokage.
It's time Madara accepted he handled the things badly too and lost many opportunities to make a better choice.
Damn the internet. Later.
PS: don't kill me >_- for this post. I am half asleep so bear with mistakes, please.( You are likely to find many even when I am not sleeping. :| but that's for some other day)
Last edited by Rian; September 03, 2014 at 11:05 AM. Reason: random typos
I still am flabbergasted that no one here has bothered to intricately delve into the treaty breach by Tobirama. Or was he simply allowed so because he didn't trust them? Is the opinion of one man that heavy and impeccable? BZ's statement lays both the clan's bare Both of them fought for power, so if Madara was unstable, then Tobirama didn't shy away from this stereotype either.
You asked why the Senju weren't under such a focus, I gave the most obvious answer. And his actions didn't nurture another Madara, Madara nurtured another Madara, decades later.
Why are you ignoring that Tobirama chose to be a decoy and die when he could have sent Kagami in his place? He didn't need to ask for a volunteer, as it turned out that he did so in a bid to make a quick decision for the next hokage to take over in his absence. Hiruzen was challenged for his position later on by Danzou and defeated before he stepped back and went to form The Root. So it's not like Tobirama's word alone decided Hiruzen's position. More like interim and then confirmed only after he defeated Danzou. Kagami could have volunteered first or he could have challenged Hiruzen like Danzou. The fact that he didn't seem to have done either that he had his own ideas about what he wanted and was satisfied with his role.
On the other hand Tobirama died at a time when Senjus were declining. It doesn't look like he tried to populate Senjus more or give them preference all that much. Tsunade might have been called a princess (in a mocking way) but she is the lone survivor from that family as far as we know and she didn't get any preference solely on that account. Her ideas of medic nin which proved useful were almost squashed without Dan's support. She was asked to become hokage only after Oro and Jiraiya. I wonder if they had made Kakashi Hokage if he wasn't put in coma by Itachi. Tsunade was recalled only because no one else could fix the things as they were at the time.
Simple fact is that if Tobirama was apprehensive about what would Uchihas do, some Uchihas also interpret his actions incorrectly because of their own nature of distrust. Madara trusted Tobirama no more than Tobirama trusted him. Tobirama didn't call Uchihas names or tried kill Sasuke once it was made clear he was not a threat. He helped Kabuto in treating him. On the other hand Madara lashed his hatred on Tsunade in worst manner. He made it personal with her for no good reason at all.
Tobirama - right or wrong didn't do anything because of personal hate. Score: +1
Madara showed he hated Senjus , in words as well as in action. Even if he acknowledged Hashi, he wanted to show him down anyhow( he pretty much waited to fight him to baost). It was ironic that he could fight Senjus and overpower them only after acquiring their cells and stealing their powers. Score: 0
Last edited by Rian; September 03, 2014 at 12:39 AM.