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Thread: Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
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    Let's Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Yes, come and discuss Tobirama's decision concerning the Uchiha. I think that this discussion need to be done because many people have long time cursed him and treat him to be a racist segregationist. The basis for this discussion is the following screen from 619.

    Spoiler show


    The context is that we assume that Tobirama is saying the truth. Here I summarized key point in the text from what Tobirama said.

    1. Tobirama knew the Uchiha's emotional problem. He even found the scientific explanation of the problem.

    2. Tobirama claimed that he tried to channel their power into something that could benefit Konoha.

    3. Tobirama claimed also that it seems that the Uchiha used their power to destroy one another.

    4. When speaking of Itachi's use of his power, he add that they did the same for the village (... for the sake of the village no less...). Then he concluded that the power served at least for the greater good.

    ============ my little comment ====

    While, I think that his suspicion of the Uchiha, and their confinement in the police force caused an acceleration of their hatred towards Konoha, it is difficult to blame Tobirama (at least for me).

    (a) Fact is that if you let the Uchiha go to the battlefield or in heavy duty mission, he might turn into a Tobi if he loses a Rin.

    (b) Fact is that if you want an Uchiha to become a Shinobi leader, he had to go EMS to be able sustain his power and have a chance against a Hashimara. In this case, he will need an MS, and then his brother's pair of eyes. Then, he will become a Madara.

    (c) If the Uchiha can suppress his hatred and become good, then he will become the target of some Danzou, and end up a Shisui, or served as an Itachi and kill all the other emo Uchiha.

    These are my own comment on the Uchiha equation. Do you guys think there is a better solution that Tobirama could have found? If you are not a god of Shinobis such as Hashimara who can kick the greatest Uchiha of his time what else do you think is possible to do for the Uchiha?

    Before you give your solution, I would like to see your opinion on Tobirama's feelings towards the Uchiha. I personally think he desperately loved them, but had no chance in helping them. And he just needed to protect the future of the village somehow. I might be wrong because I have a military behavior. Please feel free to give a well-built analysis of what you think of Tobirama's feelings for the Uchiha.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    You treat them like human beings. You give them support if they do in fact lose someone. You welcome them with open arms instead of pushing them away. The Senju are supposed to be "loving people" and yet they went against their own teachings when they were confronted with a situation that was too difficult to handle. Not to mention, for all the dumb shit Tobirama has been saying, it is his technique Edo Tensei that is causing just as many problems for his village and his world than any Uchiha has. He's a bigot hypocrite who lacked balls because he feared the Uchiha's anger issues.

    Naruto has the same exact problem as an Uchiha (or rather he did). That when his emotions got out of wack, he lost control the Kyuubi. He is far more dangerous when he loses control than any Uchiha.

    Saying that, the reason Naruto turned out alright, is that he was (eventually) given a support system to help him. His teachers (Jiraiya and Kakashi) along with his leader (Tsuande) trusted him to push through. His friends all supported him and eventually the entire village was behind him. They learned there was more to him than just the fox, just like there is more to the Uchiha than just hatred.

    The Uchiha clan helped build Konoha. There is only one other clan of equal importance as them to Konoha and it's the Senju. And yet, instead of helping the Uchiha, and showing them support, they were ousted. Because Madara did what he did, it was determined that all Uchiha could be like that. This is 100% Tobirama's fault, as the villagers would have followed him which ever way he went.

    Is it not possible that when their emotions unlocked new powers they would use those powers for good? Itachi and Shusui did exactly that and are perfect examples that their are two sides to every coin. But Tobirama is simply a half glass empty guy, and lacked the leadership and intelligence of his brother in human situations such as these.

    ---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Before you give your solution, I would like to see your opinion on Tobirama's feelings towards the Uchiha. I personally think he desperately loved them, but had no chance in helping them. And he just needed to protect the future of the village somehow. I might be wrong because I have a military behavior. Please feel free to give a well-built analysis of what you think of Tobirama's feelings for the Uchiha.
    At no point did he show any love for them, so I'm not sure where the hell you got that from. He hated them, his brother even scolded him for his remarks and alluded to his past behavior regarding the Uchiha. He wasn't one bit disturbed by what happened to them.

    From a military stand point, the Uchiha Clan were an extremely valuable asset. His preemptive behavior made little sense as he had little evidence that anyone would become like Madara. Instead of nurturing the Uchiha, he isolated them and gave them no help. Ironically, if he had a true militaristic mind, he would have channeled their hatred, brainwashed them into loving Konoha and servicing it by showing them it is their home that they helped build and that they must defend it and their clan at all costs.
    Last edited by Delbi; February 07, 2013 at 12:57 PM.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shafagh's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    some intersting point is that married Uchiha never awaken MS or become hatefull .....

    simply if Uchiha losed someone who they loved , you should help them to find another one or another thing to love ...

    and hatred .... this is part of humanity , hatred is a logical reaction against who trys or hurts what you love .... without hatred , love has no meaning ....

    what Senju/Tobirama except from Uchiha !? ... isolate Uchiha and try to push them to their end and Uchiha stay and watch their own end !?

    Are you except Sasuke become good boy after seeing a genocide and killing his brother !?
    خداحافظ

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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Tobirama was just a fascist and a racist individual. All his justifications were his own retrospection and nothing more. The fact that he simply believed his way to be right and correct, and the clan which he openly subjugated 'in the wrong', shows a lot about his so-called leadership qualities. He never should have been given the second Hokage seat. Madara deserved it as a leader of the other clan that also helped form the village, and held an equal share rightfully in all the matters. To sum it up; he was just a prick.

    ---------- Post added at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 AM ----------

    Also, Hatred is a common human emotion. What did Tobirama want? To exorcise 'human emotions' out of people? What a retarded individual.

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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Well, from what I read, it says clearly that Hashimara gave the Uchiha their freedom, but Madara disagree with Hashimara anyway. From what Tobirama said, and Hashimara's reaction, we can also confirm that under Hashimara's rule, some Uchiha represented a threat to other people. The only difference between Tobirama and Hashimara seems that Tobirama wanted to find a solution to the Uchiha problem.

    For that fact, I think Tobirama is better than Hashimara as related to the Uchiha. Hashimara could best Madara and any other Uchiha, but what about the other people who become victims of the Uchiha's sickness.

    I noticed that none of you mentioned the fact that Tobirama's goal in dealing with the Uchiha was to help them use their power for what is best for themselves and their peers. So therefore, I think you guys are being unrealistic. For most of you, Tobirama to find someone to love the Uchiha after they lost someone. Really.

    1. Hiruzen took Hashimara's solution, and he failed. I am pretty sure you can see that.
    2. Sasuke lost Itachi, and Sakura and Naruto gave their own self to him, but he rather attempted to kill them.

    How do you guys plan to solve the above question with a better solution than Tobirama's? I challenge any of you to tell me how he can fix such sickness by letting more than 10 or 20 such people roam free.


    This is the concrete situation in the story, and I think that Tobirama is the only one who really cared for the Uchiha. This is also why he does not hide anything or cover his words because he is sincere.

    @ shahdan

    Hatred is not common to human. Human are naturally loving starting with the family member. Hatred is a response to many factor, among which losing a loved one by the fault of someone. However, in the Uchiha case, the loss does not even have to be the fault of an external person. Madara took his own brother's eyes, yet he cursed the entire shinobi world for that. This is a serious sickness.
    Last edited by so6pww; February 07, 2013 at 02:28 PM.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Well, from what I read, it says clearly that Hashimara gave the Uchiha their freedom, but Madara disagree with Hashimara anyway. From what Tobirama said, and Hashimara's reaction, we can also confirm that under Hashimara's rule, some Uchiha represented a threat to other people. The only difference between Tobirama and Hashimara seems that Tobirama wanted to find a solution to the Uchiha problem.

    For that fact, I think Tobirama is better than Hashimara as related to the Uchiha. Hashimara could best Madara and any other Uchiha, but what about the other people who become victims of the Uchiha's sickness.

    I noticed that none of you mentioned the fact that Tobirama's goal in dealing with the Uchiha was to help them use their power for what is best for themselves and their peers. So therefore, I think you guys are being unrealistic. For most of you, Tobirama to find someone to love the Uchiha after they lost someone. Really.

    1. Hiruzen took Hashimara's solution, and he failed. I am pretty sure you can see that.
    2. Sasuke lost Itachi, and Sakura and Naruto gave their own self to him, but he rather attempted to kill them.

    How do you guys plan to solve the above question with a better solution than Tobirama's? I challenge any of you to tell me how he can fix such sickness by letting more than 10 or 20 such people roam free.


    This is the concrete situation in the story, and I think that Tobirama is the only one who really cared for the Uchiha. This is also why he does not hide anything or cover his words because he is sincere.

    @ shahdan

    Hatred is not common to human. Human are naturally loving starting with the family member. Hatred is a response to many factor, among which losing a loved one by the fault of someone. However, in the Uchiha case, the loss does not even have to be the fault of an external person. Madara took his own brother's eyes, yet he cursed the entire shinobi world for that. This is a serious sickness.
    Madara was ousted by the Uchiha, he challenged Hashirama for his own goals, not for the goals of his clan who already swore loyalty to Hashirama so get your facts straight first.

    1) Hiruzen failed because his teacher Tobirama set him up for failure. Not to mention, at no point in time was there any kind of peace talk between Konoha and the Uchiha, they were simply destroyed.

    2) Sasuke lost his clan, and his brother mind raped him not once, but twice. He was then cursed by Orochimaru, and essentially left to his own devices as a 13 year old by his teacher Kakashi. He was a child who has suffered more trauma than any Uchiha before him, and is thus a special case. The fact is he wasn't given the proper support he needed, just like Naruto wasn't.

    You must be delirious if you think hatred isn't common in humans. Humans are blank canvases when they are born, and can be turned into anything given what they experience.

    And again, please read the manga. Madara was given Izuna's eyes, he didn't kill him. Hashirama even notes this, that Madara went nuts after the loss of his brother. If he killed him himself, do you think he'd go nuts?

    As for a better solution than Tobirama's? You have to be kidding, a child could answer that questing. You sit the Uchiha clan down, show them your concerns, and ask them to let you help them get better and stay stable. You set up a support system, so in case one of them does lose someone close to them, they aren't just left alone so they can become evil. You don't isolate them, you instead bring them closer to the village, not farther from it. Make them the personal body guards to the Hokage. Have the Yamanaka clan go into their minds to make sure they are healthy and loyal, or shit even brainwash them.
    Last edited by Delbi; February 07, 2013 at 03:05 PM.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Registered User 中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member GyoMasta's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Quote:
    shahdan
    Tobirama was just a fascist and a racist individual. All his justifications were his own retrospection and nothing more. The fact that he simply believed his way to be right and correct, and the clan which he openly subjugated 'in the wrong', shows a lot about his so-called leadership qualities. He never should have been given the second Hokage seat. Madara deserved it as a leader of the other clan that also helped form the village, and held an equal share rightfully in all the matters. To sum it up; he was just a prick.

    ---------- Post added at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 AM ----------

    Also, Hatred is a common human emotion. What did Tobirama want? To exorcise 'human emotions' out of people? What a retarded individual.
    Thank you very much.

    Quote Quote:
    so6pww
    Yes, come and discuss Tobirama's decision concerning the Uchiha. I think that this discussion need to be done because many people have long time cursed him and treat him to be a racist segregationist. The basis for this discussion is the following screen from 619.


    Spoiler show


    The context is that we assume that Tobirama is saying the truth. Here I summarized key point in the text from what Tobirama said.

    1. Tobirama knew the Uchiha's emotional problem. He even found the scientific explanation of the problem.

    2. Tobirama claimed that he tried to channel their power into something that could benefit Konoha.

    3. Tobirama claimed also that it seems that the Uchiha used their power to destroy one another.

    4. When speaking of Itachi's use of his power, he add that they did the same for the village (... for the sake of the village no less...). Then he concluded that the power served at least for the greater good.

    ============ my little comment ====

    While, I think that his suspicion of the Uchiha, and their confinement in the police force caused an acceleration of their hatred towards Konoha, it is difficult to blame Tobirama (at least for me).

    (a) Fact is that if you let the Uchiha go to the battlefield or in heavy duty mission, he might turn into a Tobi if he loses a Rin.

    (b) Fact is that if you want an Uchiha to become a Shinobi leader, he had to go EMS to be able sustain his power and have a chance against a Hashimara. In this case, he will need an MS, and then his brother's pair of eyes. Then, he will become a Madara.

    (c) If the Uchiha can suppress his hatred and become good, then he will become the target of some Danzou, and end up a Shisui, or served as an Itachi and kill all the other emo Uchiha.

    These are my own comment on the Uchiha equation. Do you guys think there is a better solution that Tobirama could have found? If you are not a god of Shinobis such as Hashimara who can kick the greatest Uchiha of his time what else do you think is possible to do for the Uchiha?

    Before you give your solution, I would like to see your opinion on Tobirama's feelings towards the Uchiha. I personally think he desperately loved them, but had no chance in helping them. And he just needed to protect the future of the village somehow. I might be wrong because I have a military behavior. Please feel free to give a well-built analysis of what you think of Tobirama's feelings for the Uchiha. .
    You just ate what Tobirama said straight down your throat and, as you mentioned it earlier, assumed he was telling the truth. There's no such thing as to indicate that Uchihas crazy beast just about to snap every time a hard moment occur in their life, they're ninjas, not Sakura plugged with a nuclear power plant.

    Tobirama is of the Sengoku Jidai (Endless War Era) he hates the Uchiha clan just like Madara hates the Senju and clearly shows it every time he opened his mouth. Danzou is Tobirama's legitimate successor as mentality goes. He just planned what Madara feared would happen if the Uchiha were to let the Senju run above them. And Tobirama, being as calculative as he clearly appears to be, understood that based of his unbased repressive policies, considering the Uchiha Clan backed Hashirama up and turned their back on Madara, the Uchiha were bound to either disappear in the long run by accepting the repression or end up in potential extinction if they were to reject his trap.

    You ate it all.

    And his explanation that Uchiha just go berserk and activate the Sharingan and therefore needed to be tamed... Please. Tobirama is Madara's spiritual little brother while Hashirama should be set up with Izuna. Never along the many chapters has it been proven that Uchiha were some sort of inherent psychotics. What's been shown is that they're prodigious ninjas excelling in nearly everything, with great dedication for duty. "In Konoha, we have the Uchiha", says the databook about what the villagers say about them. The kids even know they are awesome shinobi:

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-226-7/...apter-221.html

    The Uchiha were known to be Konoha's most excelling Clan, bound to success, such being known even outside Konoha:

    http://www.mangareader.net/93-32-8/n...hapter-27.html
    http://www.mangareader.net/93-32-9/n...hapter-27.html

    They were the Military Police Force, do you seriously think people just a hardship about to crack would get this reputation from people from their won village? That they can't be leaders? That they, of all people, can't handle a hard, risky, difficult mission? If the most elite of Konoha can't, miraculous the ones who can. When and where during Konoha's history has it ever been pointed out that Uchiha were troublesome, that they were the equivalent of the Kaguya clan or close, that they were some sort of Juugo or jinchuuriki Naruto or behaved as such?

    Aren't they the ones who didn't protest despite Nidaime's actions to toss them out of the High Council, lock them in the pseudo-glorious position of Police (while Konoha had the very first ANBU Corps), when they were pushed at the edge of the village and biased restrictive measures started pilling up on their heads? Hashirama went passed the old grudge, the Uchiha Clan went passed the old grudge, but neither did Madara, Tobirama or the old Senju went passed the old grudge. Tobirama schemed a fake necessary evil/hard decision to make situation from the simple fact that he hated the Uchiha and wanted to subdue them and clearly sees them as but a bunch of criminal animals only good to serve his Senju ass.

    I count "snappers" on a hand: Madara, Tobi and Sasuke. None of the Uchiha who were part of the Coup were evil-bounded psychotics, they were deliberately driven to the edge by Tobirama and his successors: the Elders and fans.

    Prior to the truce Uchiha and Senju were enemies, in fact most shinobi clans were enemies of one another. The grudge and talk shit from both sides to the other at that time was "justified". That time is over. Except exceptions, Uchiha aren't bound to be a threat to their clansmen or fellow villagers, that's in Tobirama's head.

    If the Uchiha don't bow to a Senju's dillusional view they're evil, if they choose sacrifice they're good? What about the Senju Elders and Nidaime, in both his explanation of the Sharingan and the Uchiha-Senju-village situation stopped their crap way before for such a thing ever to happen to begin with. Not so hard. Even the keenest eye can be blinded by the darkest mind.

    They could even chose a Senju/Uchiha/Senju/Uchiha order for Hokageship. peace would be.

    Hashirama didn't give Uchiha freedom, but Tobirama surely stripped it away from the Uchiha.
    Last edited by GyoMasta; February 07, 2013 at 11:35 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Hatred is not common to human. Human are naturally loving starting with the family member. Hatred is a response to many factor, among which losing a loved one by the fault of someone. However, in the Uchiha case, the loss does not even have to be the fault of an external person. Madara took his own brother's eyes, yet he cursed the entire shinobi world for that. This is a serious sickness.
    You need to re-read the manga. That's all I'll say. This is way too off for me to even begin something. On human emotions; are you seriously classifying people as robots?

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Kid Chameleone's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    meh you gotta look at it from both sides, madara did just attack the village and fight his brother to the death while they were alive and did have followers who wanted to overthrow him. although he is a douche, i can understand him wanting to isolate them cause they may have tried a coup earlier if they had the chance. Plus he did make them into the police force which is a major part of any government, you guys are looking at this one sided. madara JUST attacked konoha and had followers, who's to say they wouldnt do it again? And he may have placed them at the outskirts of the village but still the hyuuga arent central in konoha and we havent seen sarutobis clan anywhere around, same for shikimarus and choji's. Yes he did isolate them but whos to say the uchiha wouldnt do the same? you guys gotta look at the big picture, they're mortal enemies who tried peace and one sides leader attacked the other and all this happened before they were isolated and dont forget they've been mortal enemies forever anyone would be suspicious of the others next move, regardless of the side. Hashirama was voted leader by the people not autocratically, madara wasn't satisfied and was paranoid. he wasnt fit to be the leader and couldnt see it so he came to his own conclusion that the senju were gonna take over not realizing that hashirama was a better leader and all around people person, he won their hearts which madara failed to do and failed to see. Madara is too ignorant to others and believes himself always right as he's doing right now, he believes he should rule the world with his jutsu while the planet is fighting him saying no. he isnt fit to lead as his views are too one sided so the people voted for hashirama. he felt cheated and instead of working on easing the pain of lose he chose to attack konoha out of suspision at a time when the senju and uchiha were true equals in the village.

    If madara hadnt of attacked hashirama then tobirama wouldnt have isolated them, this is all a major lapse in communication. madara shouldve spoken to them people and seen why he didnt get elected and worked on himself and tobirama instead of instantly isolating the uchiha he shouldve spoke to them about what their problems were to make a compromise.

    all in all its their deep rooted hatred that made everything happen, both sides were at fault but i could picture the exact same thing happening if madara got elected, bot side never truly let go before they made peace so it was pretty obvious the chance of it failing was high
    Last edited by Kid Chameleone; February 07, 2013 at 04:13 PM.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Anduren's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    The title of the thread talks about "discussing" Tobirama and the Uchiha "fair and square" but I go a few posts down and see people already mudslinging and namecalling..... I don't think branding Tobirama a facist or racist is going to contribute anything to the actual "discussion".

    The whole point of discrimination derived from hate is because people hate out of fear and lack of knowledge. Considering Tobirama's explanation of what is causing the Uchiha bloodline trait gives me the impression that he's more knowledgeable about this than most anyone else living in Konoha or anywhere else in the naruto universe at the current story's time.

    The only pragmatic choices are either:
    - people embrace hatred as a part of human nature and define deviancy down where acting out of hate is not punished or disincentivised. or,
    - a moral standard is set and enforced where people who are possibly a danger to themselves or others are institutionalized and those who have the discipline to control their basic instincts are promoted (as itachi was in this case)

    This is just my personal opinion (and is subject to change), but the way I see it, Tobirama isolated the Uchiha out of concern for the whole of the comunity rather than out of any kind of hatred for the Uchiha. It's no more different than restricting access to deadly weapons to someone you know is mentally unstable.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Kid Chameleone's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    exactly he said he only cares for the village and it was true. if they attacked again they wouldve been open to attacks from other villages not to mention countless villagers deaths too. he did his job, its not fair to say hes a complete asshole when it was the best possible solution say madaras followers did revolt lol their power comes from mental instability after all

    ---------- Post added at 06:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 PM ----------

    honestly i know there was probably no one one their level but someone outside the uchiha and senju shouldve been voted hokage, just so its equal and neither side could complain. you cant put that much bloodshed and wars behind so easily that takes time
    Last edited by Kid Chameleone; February 07, 2013 at 06:05 PM.

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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by Delbi View Post
    Madara was ousted by the Uchiha, he challenged Hashirama for his own goals, not for the goals of his clan who already swore loyalty to Hashirama so get your facts straight first.

    1) Hiruzen failed because his teacher Tobirama set him up for failure. Not to mention, at no point in time was there any kind of peace talk between Konoha and the Uchiha, they were simply destroyed.

    2) Sasuke lost his clan, and his brother mind raped him not once, but twice. He was then cursed by Orochimaru, and essentially left to his own devices as a 13 year old by his teacher Kakashi. He was a child who has suffered more trauma than any Uchiha before him, and is thus a special case. The fact is he wasn't given the proper support he needed, just like Naruto wasn't.

    You must be delirious if you think hatred isn't common in humans. Humans are blank canvases when they are born, and can be turned into anything given what they experience.

    And again, please read the manga. Madara was given Izuna's eyes, he didn't kill him. Hashirama even notes this, that Madara went nuts after the loss of his brother. If he killed him himself, do you think he'd go nuts?

    As for a better solution than Tobirama's? You have to be kidding, a child could answer that questing. You sit the Uchiha clan down, show them your concerns, and ask them to let you help them get better and stay stable. You set up a support system, so in case one of them does lose someone close to them, they aren't just left alone so they can become evil. You don't isolate them, you instead bring them closer to the village, not farther from it. Make them the personal body guards to the Hokage. Have the Yamanaka clan go into their minds to make sure they are healthy and loyal, or shit even brainwash them.
    I think in all your argument, you are one dimensional. THe fact that you ignore simply the Uchiha's responsibility here make you wrong in your analysis. You are still avoiding my question in the first place. We have solid facts that the Uchiha are sick. We know that most of their shinobi always go mad.So if you really want to judge Tobirama, you should prove that there was a better solution for the Uchiha problem.

    Concerning Madara and Izuna, Hashimara never said that Izuna gave his eyes to Madara willingly, or that Someone else killed Izuna. Please don't make facts. Take for example Sasuke. No matter how you put it, he caused Itachi's death. Because he refused to listen to his friend, he closed all the possibility he had in understanding the true reason behind Itachi's actions. THen, Sasuke want revenge, and even forget that he was also responsible of Itachi's death. If you have good memory, you should recall that Itachi gave many clue to Sasuke before they fought, but Sasuke's resolve was on Itachi's death.

    Until we get the true fact behind Izuna, you cannot separate Izuna's death, the Uchiha and Madara. Itachi's explanation was logical. Madara took his brother's eyes to be able to protect the clan. Later, the very clan betrayed him. This is much stronger source of hatred, even stronger than Sasuke's.

    Again, know that Konoha contain many clan thatwere suppose to form a peaceful family. The Uchiha Shinobi were clearly a threat to the peace in the Village and even the world due to their biology. Tobirama gave his solution, and you don't like it. WHat is your solution?

    For example, what solution do you want the current generation of Konoha to take for Sasuke given that they are not Danzou, or whoever was responsible of the Uchiha massacre? This is a real life problem.

    ======== To the Mod and You =====

    In your post above, you are saying that I am delirious. Howevr, if I start to respond to this, I will be banned. You said that human are born empty. Then how can hatred be a common feat of humans? I think you are the one who is too caught in your own opinion of Tobirama and want to justify it. Hatred is a sickness that can ruin someone's entire life. Saying it is common is the same as saying murder is common. Only specific people in specific condition can be caught into hatred. Human being are rational being who can think and put bad things behind them.
    Last edited by so6pww; February 07, 2013 at 06:27 PM.

  22. #13
    MH Senpai 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Uchiha_Blood's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    I think you lot clearly misunderstood what Tobirama did, clearly misjudging his attitude, which was jerkish ( its actually way worse lol ).
    Tobirama didn't intend to discriminate Uchiha, that is the consequence of his actions, not his purpose.
    You can see it when Orochimaru has to explain why Tobirama was mistaken, and what his actions produced in the end.

    Tobirama's goal was to keep Uchihas under watch, not to discriminate them or something like that.
    If he did, why then did he:
    -allowed them to mingle with the village
    -took an Uchiha in his squad
    -give them a position of power to better aid the village ( see what he said to Hashirama, he gave Uchiha the role they were the best at ).

    He could just murder them all for Madara's sins, or did you forget Konoha asking Itachi to do the same, taking the blame for his clan's sin?

    Look at what Orochimaru said, the Uchihas got angry because:
    -their own power, added to the one Tobirama gave them, made them superb and arrogant
    -their position made them not liked by the general population, and we know that hate towards a group tends to either make it fall apart or unite it even before. Considering how tight Uchihas were, its kinda logical that they united against the hate and increased even more their pride, mistaking the dislike for jealousy ( remember Sasuke's speech to Orochimaru ? ).
    -their standing shattered when Obito unleashed Kyuubi, and Konoha then, and only then, "segregated" them, and then losing political power.
    But that wasn't Tobirama's doing, but Danzou's.

    So, while I share the view that Tobirama was a bastard, I think he wasn't a fascist, a racist or whatever discriminating insult people throw at him.
    I think he was just a pratical guy that got scarred by the war and always thought the best of the village, and put it above the rest. Did he make mistakes? Hell yes. But was he an evil mastermind that persecuted Uchihas? Hell no.
    Imo

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  24. #14
    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    I think in all your argument, you are one dimensional. THe fact that you ignore simply the Uchiha's responsibility here make you wrong in your analysis. You are still avoiding my question in the first place. We have solid facts that the Uchiha are sick. We know that most of their shinobi always go mad.So if you really want to judge Tobirama, you should prove that there was a better solution for the Uchiha problem.
    And yet the Uchiha were never allowed to be held responsible. They were simply isolated. That isn't a solution it's simply avoiding the problem.

    Tobirama didn't do anything to solve the problem, he simply ignored it instead of trying to help the Uchiha. If this is indeed a sickness, then there is a cure for it, or at the very least, a way to medicate it and control it. But Tobirama never tried to figure that out did he?

    I already gave you my solution. Work with them, give them more responsibility closer to the village instead of away from it. Give them something to fight for, make them feel loved, not ostracized.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Concerning Madara and Izuna, Hashimara never said that Izuna gave his eyes to Madara willingly, or that Someone else killed Izuna. Please don't make facts. Take for example Sasuke. No matter how you put it, he caused Itachi's death. Because he refused to listen to his friend, he closed all the possibility he had in understanding the true reason behind Itachi's actions. THen, Sasuke want revenge, and even forget that he was also responsible of Itachi's death. If you have good memory, you should recall that Itachi gave many clue to Sasuke before they fought, but Sasuke's resolve was on Itachi's death.
    And Hashirama never said Madara killed him either so I fail to see your point. And Sasuke's friends never told him not to get revenge, they simply didn't want him to leave the village. If I'm not mistaken Naruto even said he would help him get Itachi. And then there's the small fact that Itachi wanted Sasuke to kill him, so it wasn't like he was giving his brother much of a choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Until we get the true fact behind Izuna, you cannot separate Izuna's death, the Uchiha and Madara. Itachi's explanation was logical. Madara took his brother's eyes to be able to protect the clan. Later, the very clan betrayed him. This is much stronger source of hatred, even stronger than Sasuke's.
    Itachi was also mis-informed and thought Obito was Madara. And Madara didn't search for power to protect his clan, he did so out of greed and for power itself and because he was going blind, again, please re-read. Show me a panel where it says he did it for his clan.

    Again, know that Konoha contain many clan thatwere suppose to form a peaceful family. The Uchiha Shinobi were clearly a threat to the peace in the Village and even the world due to their biology. Tobirama gave his solution, and you don't like it. WHat is your solution?
    [/QUOTE]
    Where was it shown they were a threat to peace? They renounced their leader in order to maintain peace! Tobirama feared the Uchiha, despite evidence to the contrary.

    Tel me, if "quite a few" did share his will, why did it take what must have been 70 years for them to act on it? And isn't it ironic they only acted on it after they were isolated and began to be hated, and AFTER an attack was made on the village that looked like they could be framed for? Hmmmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    For example, what solution do you want the current generation of Konoha to take for Sasuke given that they are not Danzou, or whoever was responsible of the Uchiha massacre? This is a real life problem.
    The only people still alive who were connected to the Uchiha massacre are the two elders, and they should both be killed.

    However, what should be done to Sasuke is irrelevant. Unlike his forefathers, he is already guilty of many crimes. They however were innocent, and instead were isolated because of the actions of a mad man in Madara. You don't punish people when they haven't done anything wrong.

    As it stands, by the laws of Konoha and given his crimes, unless Sasuke does something that would afford him a pardon, he deserves to punished, with either a lengthy prison sentence or death.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    In your post above, you are saying that I am delirious. Howevr, if I start to respond to this, I will be banned. You said that human are born empty. Then how can hatred be a common feat of humans? I think you are the one who is too caught in your own opinion of Tobirama and want to justify it. Hatred is a sickness that can ruin someone's entire life. Saying it is common is the same as saying murder is common. Only specific people in specific condition can be caught into hatred. Human being are rational being who can think and put bad things behind them.
    Human beings can be rational. Hatred is something alive in well in many humans.

    Think I'm wrong? Racism still exists in the United States. Plenty of white people hate black people and vice versa.

    Plenty of people outside of America hates Americans. And plenty of Americans hate people outside of America. Much of his hate is unfounded, is there because of lies and false information. The hatred is unfounded, and is there for no reason. But the fact is the hate exists.

    Denying that humans have hate in them is like denying they are capable of love. Our hatred of each other is well documented throughout human history, and as we speak people are killing one another out of hate. Don't be so naive to think it is some rare occurrence.

    ---------- Post added at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I think you lot clearly misunderstood what Tobirama did, clearly misjudging his attitude, which was jerkish ( its actually way worse lol ).
    Tobirama didn't intend to discriminate Uchiha, that is the consequence of his actions, not his purpose.
    You can see it when Orochimaru has to explain why Tobirama was mistaken, and what his actions produced in the end.

    Tobirama's goal was to keep Uchihas under watch, not to discriminate them or something like that.
    If he did, why then did he:
    -allowed them to mingle with the village
    -took an Uchiha in his squad
    -give them a position of power to better aid the village ( see what he said to Hashirama, he gave Uchiha the role they were the best at ).

    He could just murder them all for Madara's sins, or did you forget Konoha asking Itachi to do the same, taking the blame for his clan's sin?

    Look at what Orochimaru said, the Uchihas got angry because:
    -their own power, added to the one Tobirama gave them, made them superb and arrogant
    -their position made them not liked by the general population, and we know that hate towards a group tends to either make it fall apart or unite it even before. Considering how tight Uchihas were, its kinda logical that they united against the hate and increased even more their pride, mistaking the dislike for jealousy ( remember Sasuke's speech to Orochimaru ? ).
    -their standing shattered when Obito unleashed Kyuubi, and Konoha then, and only then, "segregated" them, and then losing political power.
    But that wasn't Tobirama's doing, but Danzou's.

    So, while I share the view that Tobirama was a bastard, I think he wasn't a fascist, a racist or whatever discriminating insult people throw at him.
    I think he was just a pratical guy that got scarred by the war and always thought the best of the village, and put it above the rest. Did he make mistakes? Hell yes. But was he an evil mastermind that persecuted Uchihas? Hell no.
    Imo
    Unless Tobirama is an idiot, then he should have known what he did would have extreme adverse side effects. The fact he made their clan make up the entire police force was a terrible idea because it not only would make them the only one's people who dislike, but would allow them to abuse their power since they had no one to answer to but the Hokage. That is a very unintelligent idea, and I think we can say Tobirama wasn't unintelligent.

    So he can claim ignorance all he wants, but he knew exactly what he was doing, and his view of the Uchiha and lack of surprise that they formed a coup and his open hatred for them kind of points to that being the obvious thing.

    IMO, he could have made the police force and made them a part of it, but he could have also made them personal guards of the Hokage. Or perhaps made them a staple of the ANBU who are servants of the Hokage and prefer black outs missions.

    Isolating people who are prone to bad behavior when their emotions get the best of them and giving them no support system is the dumbest thing anyone could do, and unless he was a complete idiot, which he wasn't, then it was done so with ulterior motives.

    ---------- Post added at 07:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

    O, and for those who think Tobirama never persecuted the Uchiha's, his brother told him to stop continuing to do so, showing he'd done it before.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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  26. #15
    MH Senpai MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Rikudou King's Avatar
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    Re: Let Discuss Tobirama and the Uchiha - Fair and Square!

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Well, from what I read, it says clearly that Hashimara gave the Uchiha their freedom, but Madara disagree with Hashimara anyway. From what Tobirama said, and Hashimara's reaction, we can also confirm that under Hashimara's rule, some Uchiha represented a threat to other people. The only difference between Tobirama and Hashimara seems that Tobirama wanted to find a solution to the Uchiha problem.
    If there had been Uchiha's on Madara's side, he wouldn't have been ousted as clan leader and left on his own. And given we haven't heard of any sort of trouble from the Uchiha's from that era...

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    1. Hiruzen took Hashimara's solution, and he failed. I am pretty sure you can see that.
    Sarutobi failed because Danzo went behind his back and manipulated Itachi.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    2. Sasuke lost Itachi, and Sakura and Naruto gave their own self to him, but he rather attempted to kill them.
    Sasuke lost a whole lot more then that, and he acted the way he did not because of his lost, but because of the way he was manipulated by Itachi. Itachi even pointed this out, that it was his fault that Sasuke became dedicated to revenge. Itachi literally had to torture Sasuke into that state of mind, and when Sasuke began to grow out of it and actually care about others, he came back and tortured him again. If lost naturally equaled crazy hatred, then Itachi wouldn't have had to do all that he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by so6pww View Post
    Hatred is not common to human. Human are naturally loving starting with the family member. Hatred is a response to many factor, among which losing a loved one by the fault of someone. However, in the Uchiha case, the loss does not even have to be the fault of an external person. Madara took his own brother's eyes, yet he cursed the entire shinobi world for that. This is a serious sickness.
    Izuna didn't die from Madara taking his eyes, he died later in war. Besides, Tobirama's explanation doesn't even fit Madara, since by the time Madara lost his brother, he already had EMS and didn't appear to gain anything greater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    I think you lot clearly misunderstood what Tobirama did, clearly misjudging his attitude, which was jerkish ( its actually way worse lol ).
    Tobirama didn't intend to discriminate Uchiha, that is the consequence of his actions, not his purpose.
    You can see it when Orochimaru has to explain why Tobirama was mistaken, and what his actions produced in the end.
    It's true that he probably didn't intend it on purpose, but he clearly showed some prejudice feelings towards the clan, and that likely caused his actions to bring more trouble then they would of if he didn't have any prejudices against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uchiha_Blood View Post
    Look at what Orochimaru said, the Uchihas got angry because:
    -their own power, added to the one Tobirama gave them, made them superb and arrogant
    -their position made them not liked by the general population, and we know that hate towards a group tends to either make it fall apart or unite it even before. Considering how tight Uchihas were, its kinda logical that they united against the hate and increased even more their pride, mistaking the dislike for jealousy ( remember Sasuke's speech to Orochimaru ? ).
    -their standing shattered when Obito unleashed Kyuubi, and Konoha then, and only then, "segregated" them, and then losing political power.
    But that wasn't Tobirama's doing, but Danzou's.
    The thing is, that even after what Konoha pulled, the Uchiha clan was still willing to talk things out with Sarutobi. Along with that, we hadn't heard of any violent incidents from the clan against Konoha until the coup, decades after everything Tobirama did. So clearly his opinion of the Uchiha clan doesn't fit with Tobirama's claims and that makes his reasoning suspect. If only two out of the hundreds go on to pose a threat, and only because they got manipulated into it, either his reasoning was false or the Uchiha clan attempted to prove themselves fitting of belonging in the village. Either way, they didn't deserve the way they were treated.

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