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So Sarutobi would just let some clan, who he would undoubtedly be capable of wiping out, remain after assassinating his friends, and members of Konoha's council. I disagree. As long as the Uchiha remained there would be the risk of further conflict. Also, what would the Uchiha be negotiating for? You've suggested that their targets would be the council members alone. What would they have achieved? How would their position have changed? In reality, what you're suggesting isn't even a coup. As for the comparisons between Danzo and the Uchiha, they're not the same and you have to be aware of that. A direct attack on Konoha, and its leadership, is far different from Danzo's machinations.
So yes, most Uchiha lacked Sharingan. It's good to see that at least you've made it this far. Obito before wasn't exceptional, but Obito before wasn't able to manipulate anyone, so we're obviously considering events after that would make him exceptional. A Hax MS makes him exceptional, regardless of how he achieved it. And if you're at the point that you're arguing that Hashirama's cells don't make one exceptional, you should probably just give up. And receiving tutelage from one of the most powerful, and talented, shinobi to ever exist makes you exceptional. How could you possibly suggest that Obito isn't exceptional? I can't believe that I'm even arguing about this.
Problems with this are:
-Since the beginning, Sasuke said the Sharingan was something only a small part of his clan awakened.
-Itachi, Orochimaru, Danzou and Obito said plenty of times how Uchihas became arrogant.
The coup is a perfect example of that, kinda like the Kaguyas, remember?
For the genjutsu to be overwhelming, the Uchiha would need to be 1 on 1 and follow the one controlled around like a puppy.
Only someone with Itachi's talent could control people from a distance, and believe it or not only Madara and Shisui have comparable Genjutsu feats with Itachi
Wiki's definition of a coup.
If you believe Uchihas could succeed in a coup when the ANBU and the Hokage were alerted of that, you are, no offence, delusional.
Do you really think that, when the coup failed, that Fugaku would've surrended and be imprisoned like the rest of his clan?
He would fight and get slaughtered. Saying "the coup could be successfull" doesn't mean it would automatically be successfull, nor that it wouldn't involve violence, as we don't know the details of it.
Danzou planned to use Mifune's approval as the leader of the Alliance to get the Jounin approval.
Well loved doesn't mean the people would accept Uchihas usurping the Hokage, expecially when the Hokage was just as loved.
And no one opposed Danzou because:
-the village was being rebuilt, and people surely had other things in their head.
-according to what was the official informations, Danzou retired and Root was disbanded by Hiruzen.
-his nomination wasn't official yet, since the Jounins still opposed him apparently. He was the candidate the Daimyo preferred
Obito said so as well. No matter how, Uchihas would get annihilated.
3) Where it is said a 2-tomoe Sharingan can't cast genjutsus? Even if its an automatic power, one needs to practice with it, and if the Uchiha sucks at genjutsu he wouldn't be able to cast one.
Give a Sharingan to Naruto and let's see what happens
Ask any militar how "treason" is pretty limited
Betrayal, in a society made of soldiers, is punished with death
Already showed you that the scan about "Uchihas wanting to regain political power" was an error in translationQuote:
They wanted the Hokage seat
All this discussion of the coup d'etat is well and good and interesting thinking about what would've actually happened if it did take place. But aren't we getting away from the actual topic? The introducing post of the thread already said:
So why get into the weeds of debating minute details of an event that never took place in the manga when the actual topic is why people "curse Tobirama and treat him to be a racist segregationist" based on one page of the manga?
After 19 pages of posts I'm starting to think its easier to catch a squirrel in the back yard with bare hands than to extract an answer to this out of the people who keep hating on Tobirama.
And being wiped out by Itachi and Obito is hardly being wiped out easily, especially when it happen at night. Itachi has been shown superior to basically everyone. And we can't even compare his strength to Fugaku given that his parents didn't even put up a fight. How did the Uchiha's intend the same way? They knew Konoha knew of the coup.
How aren't they the same? Danzo's machinations endangered the village just as much any possible coup. Heck, his actions have been responsible for the village being assaulted by Pain and it was implied that he was behind Orochimaru's attack too. Danzo has caused just as much deaths as they would have possibly done.
And that's not how genjutsu would work. We've seen that a single one can catch multiple targets, and one wouldn't likely have to follow the victim around. Nor would they really have had a need to control people over an entire country. Also, you're missing the other genjutsu option, knocking people out to make it easier to kill/take down.
2) Anyway, It was still them having to ambush the clan. And Danzo spoke of once they tried, which is not the same as annihilating them regardless, otherwise the threat they pose would have been meaningless. Itachi didn't bother because it was obvious that he wouldn't have attacked the village. We all know that if Itachi actually wanted to, he could have defeated the village single-handedly. Heck, from what we've seen of Konoha's forces, they wouldn't have stood a chance. They could barely handle an invasion of 200 ninjas, or an attack from six "powerful" ninjas. The forces from Ame and Iwa were shown superior. Konoha's only saving grace was a few key ninjas. When did Obito say the clan would have been annihilated?
3) Didn't say that it was tied to the number of tomoe, but it was shown that having all three tomoes completed it's power. And the point was that there was nothing to suggest that the handful of Sharingan users in the Uchiha clan lacked said skills with genjutsu. Claiming that someone who was considered elite by everyone else would suck makes little sense.
Last edited by Rikudou King; February 15, 2013 at 02:55 PM.
The ruling council never suggested Danzo, it was just the Daimyo who was quickly convinced by Danzo's heart-felt speech. The point is Jounin rebellion here, don't twist words and crux of argumentation to suit your needs. If they could on grounds that they were knowledgeable about Danzo's shady political division, which could jeopardize Konoha in a number of unforeseen ways, just proves that this whole retaliation is clearly stretched and is a common hogwash at best.
Why would they not accept their government? I just gave you an example of Danzo presiding over Tsunade. The root division never intervened during Pein attack but there is not a single manga page to suggest that his position was unwelcome on these grounds amongst all the jounin rank officials. In fact we only know about the opinion of about ten people at best. He still became the incumbent Hokage by selection through a single individual. If people and ninjas can accept the rule of an individual who himself along with his underlings did nothing to curb the war waged by pein, I cannot see how an internal war will break out just because Uchiha clan take over, when they actually had people's trust. Yes, clearly I am being completely illogical. Must be a hard acquired taste; your justifications, of course.
P.s: We are talking about Ninjas here. Try to apply the word 'coup' in the required context. It isn't so terribly hard, I assure you.
---------- Post added at 01:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 AM ----------
Dear god, please show me a single manga page where it's mentioned that Itachi's 3T Sharingan is miles ahead of any other Uchiha having the same ocular ability. Where are you pulling this out from? When another battle-field veteran - Chiyo - was not even taking the likes of Madara into consideration and didn't even know about Itach's existence, let alone acknowledge his genjutsu feats? The strategies are still there. The manga proves that two people are needed to break a single genjutsu. You cannot refute it with your self-made Itachi this and that pointers. Let's not even forget that Itachi's genjutsu feats are mostly aligned with Mangekyo Sharingan's moon genjustu. That's grasping at straws, and a blatantly obvious one at that.
Are you seriously accusing me of being Delusional, when I am completely taking Itachi and Shisui's ultime betrayal off the topic here? How hard is it to gather that logic from my posts? Seriously? Regardless of Itachi's double status as a spy, he could still have sided with the Uchiha clan after he obtained MS following Shisui's suicide, as he was passing information on both ends. In fact, Shisui could have used his superior genjutsu to compel the likes of Daimyo to declare Fugaku as Hokage, elder's (along with Danzo's) execution, and Hokage's dismissal from the seat. Remember, his existence was probably only known to Danzo as a second spy, not to the hokage. And after the said course of events, no one would have known the intricate set-up of the plan was put into action through Shisui's mind-control.
Is there any scan to suggest that the news concerning his appointment as the Hokage didn't reach to anyone, when all ninjas have families etc? Also, I wouldn't use wikipedia as my source. My father is a military veteran of thirty years, and coup is a pre-planned sudden attack. Even the manga's story aligns well with this, as espionage endeavours were always taking place to gather Intel on other nations. All of those espionage events were not on-the-spot affairs, but carefully planned military actions, raids etc.
Last edited by shahdan; February 15, 2013 at 03:36 PM.
Hardly a force that can match an army, me thinks, even if it was recovering from the Kyuubi attack.
In battle I have no issue against Sharingan, I'm talking about controlling persons remotely, and Shikaku clearly said that only the likes of Itachi could do it.
And we all know Itachi is above the Uchihas of that time
They were considered the best because they had the Sharingan, that and only thatQuote:
As for point number 2, the threat was real because, without a sneak attack, it would be open battle, and, having knowledge of key parts of the village ( other than being a powerful clan, if not the most powerful one in Konoha ) they would do massive damage.
As for Obito telling that, I'm sure he did in his history lesson with Sasuke
Sharingan doesn't have only genjutsu, actually its most renowed power in part 1 was its copying ability, which meant Uchihas were mostly ninjutsu monsters.
Using a bad action to fight another bad action doesn't make it any better imoQuote:
See this week's chapter, Tobirama was all for killing Sasuke before he could try to destroy Konoha, while Hashirama wanted to talk so he could try to convince Sasuke.Quote:
Hiruzen is the same, as we all know.
As for the coup, when Fugaku said he would be willingly to stop the coup?
Also it was a power grab, Kishi just shows how ninja's society lighted the Uchiha curse again. Its also obvious the coup was painted so for the plot, since, if Fugaku waited just some years, Itachi would've been made surely Hokage.
He was known and praised by way too many people, and Hiruzen ( and Danzou as well ) had an enormous amount of respect for him.
I'm sure they would've accepted him regardless of their supposed bigotry towards the Uchihas
I dunno, feats? Hype? The fact that, at 13 years old, Itachi was the strongest of his clan? The fact that he's hailed as one of the greatest genjutsu user in the manga? The fact that, at HQ, Shikaku specifically told only the likes of Itachi could control people with a genjutsu from the distance?
Or the entire convo during the Kabuto fight?
Itachi is not the normal Uchiha, he's an elite above the elite, probably the only one that could've challenged the likes of Madara should the plot not demand him to die.
I'm calling you delusional if you think that the Uchihas could've succeded in their coup when the Hokage and the ANBU already knew about it
I'm not contesting your definition of a coup, I'm contesting the fact that it isn't all daisies and sunshines:
a failed coup almost always results in a civil war, and the manga says as much.
The whole village would rise to fight Uchihas once they would catch wind of the fact they attempted to usurp the Hokage, and this would result in what Danzou, Itachi and Obito claimed
I think the delusional sentiment applies to you more, if you believe that the coup would have been a complete failure had the element of 'Surprise' still existed. Nawaz Sharif knew about Pervaiz Musharraf's coup plans, but the strategic element of lack of information gave the latter an advantage. He ousted a leader through a simple house arrest through pre-emption, when he had the whole police force and many Lieutenant generals supporting him. The complete dearth of information on the plan's execution date, give Uchiha clan a strategic advantage. No one is glossing over coup with sun-shine from Disany's *insert random crap name here*. That's entirely your own fault.
We don't know whether the whole anbu division was even aware of he coup. It's quite possible that only the spies close to Danzo or the ones employed to spy on the Uchiha clan were knowledgeable. What's to say that Uchiha clan members were not a part of root division like Itachi and Shisui?
Why would the whole village rise to oppose them? Manga hasn't delineated anything along these lines, they were just far-fetched opinions to expedite the massacre, and your opinions are also of the same nature; completely ill-founded. Also, what makes you think that another clan wouldn't have welcomed this? The Hyuga clan's branch family could have easily sided with the Uchiha clan, or supported them as well, after they received nothing but cold-shoulder treatment from the likes of the much-loved-by-all Hizuren.
Yes, because Itachi was always right. lol His admissions of being a complete failure, anyone?
Last edited by shahdan; February 15, 2013 at 06:53 PM.
Obito had at least 104 eyes, that means at least 52 Uchiha's with Sharingans. Along with Danzo's, that 57. That a reasonable force, considering Konoha's army was shown as crap. That's not even mentioning that the rest of the regular Uchiha's. Pretty good, especially when it's canonical that to fight a Sharingan required two verses one against the to counter their genjutsu ability.
Shikaku said that only someone like Itachi (which didn't disclude any other Sharingan users actually) could control people outside the range of their sensors, which covered several nations. So even if there was no users in Konoha who could achieve that feat, they wouldn't have to for this discussion.
They had forewarning and the coup wasn't even ready to go yet. Konoha's side had multiple advantages over the clan and still believed an ambush was needed to succeed. Obito didn't mention anything about them being annihilated. The copying ability didn't just apply to using ninjutsu, it was also the source of their prediction ability and that applied pretty much regardless of opponent. Anyway, the Sharingan's genjutsu ability was shown alongside the copying ability in it's first appearance, Kakashi warned Asuma and Kurenai about it before he was even made aware of Tsukuyomi, and Chiyo went on to tell us in Part Two how against a Sharingan user, common tactics were to run if alone and only fight if you had a teammate. The copying ninjutsu skill actually doesn't appear to have been used all that much by. None of the Uchiha's we've seen have really made use of it.
Fugaku willing accepted Itachi joining the other side and didn't attempt to fight back at all, only wishing for Itachi to protect Sasuke and speaking of how proud of Itachi he was. That is not the way the leader of a coup plotting mass murder acts. Except that Itachi wouldn't have been allowed to be made Hokage, because that was what Danzo wanted. It's pretty obvious that Danzo would have eventually tried to eliminate Itachi, just like he did against Tsunade and possibly Sarutobi. That's the key point, taking out Danzo would have solved everything.
On your second point, I'm not going to continue to argue because it is some hypothetical situation that would seem extremely unlikely considering what the manga has provided. The Uchiha planned a coup, an attempt to take control of Konoha, that is reality. Assassination of the council members and a sit-down with the Hokage wasn't on the table. As for this Danzo v Uchiha matter, I'm sure you are able to distinguish between weakening or endangering the village somewhat through external activities and attacking the village outright.
MS makes one exceptional; that is fact. It's rarity, and power, ensures that. A MS with an inherent hax ability even more so. Rasengan isn't remotely comparable to Kamui, and three individuals coming together to use a technique isn't either. We've seen what Hashirama cells are capable of providing; Danzo's Sharingan use, Yamamoto's bijuu control, Obito's vitality and ability to summon Gedo Mazo and control six Jins, Orochimaru's increased power. And the teacher being powerful doesn't make one exceptional, but it sure helps. I'm not going to continue to argue about Obito. It's not of central relevance to the discussion, and it is unbelievable that it is even a point of contention.
I'm not going to continue to argue over the obvious differences between Danzo being appointed to fill an empty post by a head of State and an Uchiha coup. If you can't see it, that 's just too unfortunate.
And if you can't see how the Uchiha coup would lead to internal conflict within Konoha, I recommend some source material. You should probably start with Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto, it's a pretty good read, try it some time.
Need I list the people who praised Itachi regardless of his Mangekyo?
And then by feats:
-caught Naruto twice in a genjutsu without him knowing
-caught Bee in a genjutsu without the latter knowing
Then let's list the ones who praised his overall talents:
And probably I forget more.
Itachi, at 13, was the strongest of his clan, a prodigy like no other.
To think normal Uchihas can even hope to compare is laughable, no offence
Guess who was a double agent?Quote:
Konoha knew everything about the coup, and lacked the backing up of pretty much the entire army. It was a single clan against a village, village that knew everything there was to know about the coup.
But I can't force you to believe the Uchihas were screwed regardless, expecially if you chose to ignore manga panels
ANBU is under the Hokage, ROOT is under Danzou.Quote:
Both the Hokage and Danzou were aware of it, as such both ROOT and ANBU would know about the plan
And Itachi was in ANBU, not in ROOT.
Go reread the first fight he had against the Jounins, Itachi was an ANBU captain at 13, when he fled the village
Are you serious?Quote:
Are you asking why a village would oppose a clan that would overthrow the government for their own selfish desires? If so, then, my friend, let's agree to disagree since we have completely different ideas
Itachi failed, true, by his own admission nevertheless.
He failed about Sasuke, not about needing to end his clan
As Hiruzen said, he always saw the bigger picture, and wasn't bound by petty or selfish ideals
That was the level, a level the likes of Gai and Kakashi would ate for breakfast
Uchihas were dangerous since they could fight while ignore the citizens, because they were in the village system ( they were the police afterall ) and because, as you said, they were a powerful clan, even in their decadence.
Doesn't mean they were gods walking among men
Was notorious compared to the fodder ninja, a fodder Uchiha would be >> a fodder ninja thanks to an haxed abilityQuote:
They believed an ambush was needed for a victory with no ( or few ) losses, Danzou said clearly the Uchihas would die even with Itachi on their side and knowing about Konoha knowing about it ( lol )
As for copying, Kakashi was known for copying, Madara copied Hashirama's Mokuton, Sasuke copied Lee's taijutsu and Itachi copied Kabuto's Suiton in the last fight
By its name alone, Sharingan is the "Copy-wheel eye" that's why it was famous back in part 1.
And I never said Konoha was right and Uchihas were wrong, both were wrong.Quote:
The difference is that the Uchiha's wrong was worse than the Konoha's wrong
Hashirama wanted to talk with Sasuke because he's a good guy, a 40/50 years old Naruto, all sunshines and rainbows.Quote:
Would you talk with a guy that in his hands has a button that would nuke your country?
Oh god let's not paint Fugaku as a martyr, he was a proud man that accepted his fate with dignity, that much I'll admit, and considering what Tobirama told us its normal for Uchihas to care about their family.
But he only cared about his family, and that was his mistake.
And yet he did nothing when Yondaime was appointed Hokage, when Hiruzen was appointed again and when Tsunade was as well.
He could not prevent Itachi from being made Hokage, since the choices would be either him or Kakashi. He could use Orochimaru in the same way, true, but would Orochimaru challange Itachi?
I don't think so
Besides, people forget many factors here:
1. Tobirama is one of the people who knows everything. We have been waiting for him for a long time.
2. There is no sign of discrimination towards the Uchiha during Tobirama's reign. The so called discrimination and segregation was only mentioned by Tobi and Orochimaru, and we know that Tobi is a copy of Madara while Orochimaru is the perfect evidence that an Hokage must take harsh decision - I mean many people died because Hiruzen was easy on him.
There's no reason a sit down would not be on the table, when as pointed out, the council members were not some inculpable innocence. They were directly responsible for the way events were happening, against Sarutobi's wishes. Their removal solves the problem, and the idea that Sarutobi would sacrifice thousands over three people is just ridiculous. And that has been gone over already. There's not a single point of evidences suggesting the Uchiha's were plotting to attack the village itself. The very definition of a coup d'état is an attack upon the government and the results everyone was so worried about was the possibility of weakening the village for it's external enemies. Nothing was said about innocent people being their targets. So both are completely comparable.
Losses weren't exactly mentioned, now was it. Danzo talked alot of crap, his actions and the series itself clearly showed otherwise. And aside from Kakashi, who's not an Uchiha, only Sasuke showed any sort of copying and that was once. Madara didn't "copy" Hashirama's Mokuton and not sure why you think Itachi copied Kabuto, given that Itachi had water techniques already. Even believing that, that's two techniques out of like two dozen. Like I said, it hasn't really been made use of.
Martyr? The point was that Fugaku showed no sort of signs of being some heartless mass murder as people are trying to make him out to be. Please, taking Tobirama's prejudice as evidence. The Uchiha clan helped Konoha for five decades and didn't do anything until they got pushed into it. Where is the evidence that he or any Uchiha "only" cared about their clan? They ousted family for the village. He showed more love for the village then Danzo and the council have.
Minato died shortly after becoming Hokage, it was implied he had Sarutobi assassinated, and he played Tsunade the whole time. Why wouldn't he have been able to prevent Itachi from becoming Hokage when we saw him do so against Kakashi? That's not even taking in the whole Kotoamatsukami issue.
Itachi's genjutsu skills without Mangekyo is one of the best - Mangekyo doesn't enhance one's talent in ninjutsu, genjutsu, or taijutsu otherwise Itachi would have been owning Sasuke in katon vs. katon fight without needing Amaterasu. Mangekyo just provides at least one extra jutsu, or probably two, since Kakashi's Sharingan came from Obito's in the first place. Itachi, without Mangekyo, is one of the best in the series. If he had not Sharingan, he'd still be jounin level, easily. Kakashi without Sharingan, as seen, would be jounin level as well. Sasuke was at the time of chuunin exam, at at chuunin level, according to Genma. Sharingan just made three of 'em even better; they were already great shinobi.
Anyway, despite being told to discuss Tobirama and Uchiha fair and square, from what I've seen most people aren't doing that. They're either too skewed against the Uchiha or for them. So far, no one is really being fair and square, either blaming the Uchiha solely or saying they're completely innocent (although they were in Tobirama's time).
Here are some of Sasuke’s prowess with 3T genjtusu, albeit he was proven to be several tiers below Itachi’s MS genjutsu:
What a baselessly made up and hilariously off-the-course claim. Where is your proof? Kakashi didn’t seem to know, despite his elite Jounin status. In fact, none of the elite jounins were aware of the coup, including the members in the elite Jounin council that includes Shikamaru and Ino’s fathers. Otherwise, after the news of Sasuke’s involvement in Akatsuki broke out in the village, someone would have revealed something. About countless chapters later, everyone is still in the dark. Kakashi is still unable to wrap his head around the fact that the elders gave orders for the extermination of the clan. This must be a dry joke that requires a cue to guffaws.
How many root division members were revealed to be aware of the history of Uchiha Massacre, or even the coup at that time? Sai – a hunter-nin - had no knowledge about the coup and why he was given a page to exterminate Sasuke. He was only given a basic order to kill the missing-nin without the knowledge of the current Hokage; it was a behind the scene maneuver. Even when he had a change of heart, he still never divulged any such information.
Danzo suggested a course of action, there isn’t a single manga page to validate that he even revealed the news to anyone in anbu-roots division. Anbu faction is a special tactical and assignation squad, and members are capable of attaining jounin status later; Kakashi would be one example. At least some of them could have revealed something to anyone. Danzo was simply manipulating the situation to get Sharingan and nothing more. It’s pretty safe to assume that the only people aware of the coup were the leaders, and Danzo’s two guards who are involved in a lot of his dirty work.
P.s: Root is an off-shoot of the Anbu branch and it falls under Danzo’s orders, which would explain why Itachi reported to Danzo as well, and solely acted on orders from him, despite Hoakge’s power over the squad. It isn’t as straight-line simple as you make it sound like. Even Shisui either reported or brought this matter in Danzo’s knowledge and told him of his course of action which resulted in his eye getting unceremoniously poked out of his socket.
How intelligent Itachi was that even after the knowledge of this event, he still abided by Danzo’s orders. Genius indeed.
A desire to an equal political hold is selffish? Right. Are you serious? Why would the villagers rise up to Uchiha if they are treated justly? Stop grasping at straws. This comment is ripped to shreds by you without any effective back up. I couldn’t care less about Hizuren’s justifications. If a leader fails to extend a courtesy of equality to the masses; he’s a failure. All of the hokages – except Tsunade - fall aptly under this banner, when they did nothing to stop Uchiha, and Hyuga branch-family’s gross treatment.
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Last edited by shahdan; February 16, 2013 at 02:51 PM.