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Translations: Gintama 507 (2)
Oh boy! it is good to have one's restrictions to be lifted up. Finally, I am back. Well, a while agao, while discussing with some fans, I claimed that someday the Uchiha fans will be disappointed to learn two things: (1) That Rinnegan is not a mutation of the Sharingan, but a completely different dojutsu with different power and source, and (2) Hashimara never wanted to fight, or defeat, or kill Uchiha Madara.
Of course, though we now know that Rinnegan is from both Senju and Uchiha, some fans continue to think it is a mutation of the Sharingan ( I want them to at least add that this mutation is caused by Senju DNA - by the way I disagree). Well, this is not the subject for this thread.
Concerning Madara vs Hashimara, my claim was that Madara is surely powerful as the strongest Uchiha ever told (Sasuke will be soon). It is clear that Madara could own any non-Uchiha or non-Senju Shinobi. However, since I think had my prediction that Hashimara was some sort of Naruto due to analogy used by Kishi throughout the manga, I also claimed the followings in order of reasoning:
1. Hashimara was a god in the shinobi world,
2. THe entire shinobi world knew he was invincible
3. Madara as an Uchiha not only couldn't accept it, but he also wanted to take his chance.
4. So Madara fought Hashimara for the first time, and lost.
5. Actually, Madara survived because Hashimara let him alive because he did not want to grieve those Uchiha who were leaving in Konoha with some love for Madara.
6. The shinobi world saw Madara's survival as an act of bravery. This act along with his Uchiha nature and war history earned Madara the legendary status of being a rival of the god Hashimara.
7. After each battle with Hashimara, Madara always came up with the idea that some new power would help him defeat Hashimara the next time. Obtaining the Kyuubi is one such power that I know.
8. However, he always lost the game at each new battle, and survived because of Hashimara's kindness.
Therefore, I concluded that while I admit that he is strong, I think Madara was no match for Hashimara. If Hashimara was to go rage like an uchiha, he would have killed Madara. I even suggested that Hashimara might have stabbed Madara accidentally during their last battle due to Madara's Kamikaze attitude - Madara wanted at any cost to take Hashimara's power as he thought that if he couldn't beat Hashi with Kyuubi's help, he will succeed next time if he obtain the god's own power. In my opinion, stealing Hashimara's power to be able to tour over the world is the evidence that Madara was largely inferior to Hashi.
Why do I have the above opinion?
While many will refute my argument, I think Madara vs Hashimara was no different from Sasuke vs Naruto. And, I believe that from the day Naruto set his feet outside of Konoha and considered Sasuke as a rival, he grew so match faster that Sasuke became no match for him. During their VOTE fight, Naruto initially wanted to take Sasuke back to Konoha at any cost, but realized that the only solution was to kill Sasuke if he want to take him back. Thus, at the end, he opted for giving Sasuke a mark that could engrave a deep meaning in his heart. To me, Naruto won his fight against Sasuke. Naruto's bet was that he had never felt inferior to Sasuke while Sasuke said that Naruto will never be able to place a scratch on his forehead protector. At the end of the fight, Naruto won the bet.
Using Kishi's analogical unfolding of the story, I think Madara and Hashimara had the same story. In addition, I think Naruto had more power than Sasuke at the VOTE but lacked the intent to kill. For example, had the bet been to hit one another in vital part, Sasuke would have been killed by Naruto's Rasengan while Naruto would have simply regenerated after the clash as he did.
Moreover, you might have already noticed that after each clash between Naruto and Sasuke, Sasuke went in search for a new power he think will take Naruto down. The first was accepting the curse seal for power, the second was risking his body for power. While these two were intended to kill Itachi, they were fueled by rivalry with Naruto. The third time was rushing to take Itachi's eyes after the last meeting, and lately, he rushed Orochimaru after feeling Naruto's chakra. Well, I think this is also what happened between Hashimara and Madara.
In conclusion, I think the SO6P gave something greater to the Senju. This thing might have not stated clearly in the manga yet, but allow the Senju to be much powerful than the Uchiha and keep the Uchiha for destroying the world.
This is my inference of Madara vs Hashimara from Sasuke vs Naruto. Interestingly, after seeing Hashimara's behavior in 619, it is likely that I have been right all along.
Please feel free to discuss fair and square.
Note: I am sometime seen as a nuisance because I usually enjoy topics that are seen as taboos. Maybe, it is because I am not affected by flaming, or because I usually respond to flaming with more deadly flame. However, I am usually trying to discuss seriously. So let just discuss, and bring some reasonable arguments so that I don't get banned again.
It's been said that Hashirama fought to kill Madara, and he himself thought Madara was dead. Even Madara admitted he was shocked at how he was alive, so yeah, Hashirama did fight to kill.
What one wants to know is how Madara managed to be considered Hashirama's rival if by his own admission, Hashirama was nearly immortal? If anything, Madara and Hashirama were considered on almost equal standings, if not equal standings. Why else would Hashirama not kill the leader of his enemy clan? It's been said that both have fought many times, where neither gained a decisive victory over the other until the battle at Valley of the End.
However, it doesn't discount the possibility that Hashirama might have gone easy on Madara during their final battle. But evidence suggests Madara fought to win and used all his powers.
Naruto was never at the point where Sasuke was no match for him during Part I. I don't know where you got that from, especially when we see Sasuke fodderizing Naruto's clones on top of the hospital, where Sasuke was resting. Both he and Naruto lacked the intent to kill, Sasuke lacking it at the end of the fight while Naruto never had the intent to kill. And Sasuke was never thinking about taking down Naruto after Naruto was unconscious, his goal was to get power to kill Itachi. Naruto was never his goal, other than gaining Mangekyo. Gaining EMS was as result of wanting to destroy Naruto, though.
And Sasuke getting stronger before he deserted Konoha was both fueled by his desire to kill Itahci and his rivalry with Naruto. Two reasons throughout that, not one.
And no, you're not seen as a nuisance because of topics that you discuss, none of which are taboos.
While I appreciate your reply, I can say that there is no fact in the manga that suggest that Hashimara has ever fight to kill Madara. The line of thought that suggest that Hashimara was rather trying to convince Madara seems legit to me. Consider for example Naruto vs Sasuke. In the end, Naruto suggested that for the sake of the village, he might end up dying with Sasuke. This means that Naruto does not want to be considered as hero by killing his own comrade.
This situation might have been what Hashimara also faced. Notice that if someone is considered as god, everyone that fight this god and survived will earn a public aknowledgement, even if he was sparred intentionally by the god. A guy like Madara will never accept that Hashimara let him live. Thus, unless Hashimara confirms your opinion, I will only consider Obito's statement as Madara's own version.
Considering Naruto vs Sasuke, I think any honest person can remember the fact that Naruto never wanted to fight Sasuke in the first place. The fight on the roof top was no serious fight for Naruto. Only Sasuke got pissed off for two reason: (1) he noticed that Naruto has become stronger than him in no time, and (2) he was mad because he misjudge Naruto's friendship as something that was keeping him from becoming strong. In fact, at that time, Sasuke had already started to admit that Naruto is stronger than him, and he wanted to confirm it. Even at VOTE, Naruto confirmed the fact thatthe fight at the rooftop was never the type of fight he wanted between them.
Also, you might think that Sasuke fodderized Naruto's clones, but actually, the clones many uses in a fight, among which one is to throw them at the enemy so that the enemy can reveal his Jutsu or exhaust his power. In that case, they are bound to be fodderize. When someone uses a clone for tactical purpose, he doesn't make a lot of them. You should also notice that the clones here represented a counter to the sharingan. In addition, if you revisit this fight again, you will see that Naruto avoided any lethal attack from Sasuke, and even showed that he is a master of tactic while Sasuke was fighting straight. This fight also displayed some fundamental comparison of a Senju Shinobi and an Uchiha Shinobi. I don't consider it has a fight to compare the two.
I can judge the two only when they are both serious, and not a one side fight. This happened only twice, and it was the two Sharingan vs Chidori. At the rooftop, Sasuke lost. And at The VOTE, he also lost the final clash. While saying that Sasuke did not have the intent to kill, remember that he couldn't because not only he was weak and bleeding, but he also noticed he lost the duel.
You cannot say that Sasuke lost at the rooftop cause Chidori and Rasengan never clashed in that situation. Yeah it looked like Narutos Rasengan did more damage to the water tank but that mustn't mean that it would overpower Chidori.
And in what world did Naruto win at the VOTE? Sasuke in the end spared an unconscious Naruto.
You can perfectly reverse this argument: Madara was smart enough to know that there's another power lying ahead of him and Hashirama didn't, so if he would've been smart, Hashirama would've stolen Madaras eyes thus becoming even more powerful.Quote:
As for the rest of your opinion, I think that most of it is just a hypothesis that in fact is a bit farfetched.
So far we've seen a bit of Edo Madara and can probobly a little imagine what was his power without his upgrades. But we havent seen anything from Hashirama in part 2 context, so actually we don't know how strong this dude was.
You could also very likely guess that Hashiramas fighting style was just something like a natural enemy to Madaras, but that must not make him stronger than Madara in the first place.
Just an example to clarify what i mean - i don't know weather you are familiar with men's tennis but i think this is a good example.
If you compare Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal, i think you could say that they are both brilliant players - however Nadals playstyle (huge spins) is a natural enemy to Federers one handed backhand, Nadal being lefty has a clear advantage on this one. But that doesn't make him the better player, it gives him just the advantage over the game of this particular player.
While i do agree that the majority of Hashirama's and Madara's confrontations weren't as cut throat as it might have been implied much earlier in the manga, i do believe Hashirama went all out on Madara at VOTE which is why he won, despite Madara having the 9 tails. I think their relationship was something akin to Raikage's and Minato's. For whatever reason those 2 met on the battlefield several times but just never had an out fight. Maybe it was because of Hashirama's personality or maybe it was because the mission(whatever it was) either failed or succeeded. Hashirama was forced to kill Madara when Madara threatened to destroy everything he stood for(the leaf) but it was far from easy. The wounds he got from that battle are probably what led to his death later on. So they were still basically equals but hashirama was undoubtedly the strongest of his time.
As for Naruto and Sasuke; Sasuke has been superior to Naruto the majority of the manga. It wasn't until Naruto's fight with Gaara that he became Sasuke's equal. I will admit Naruto should have won VOTE but they were still basically equal. Sasuke was more powerful the whole beginning of part 2 until Naruto's sage training. Then they became equals with Naruto slightly having the edge until Sasuke got MS. This is the first was is the time in the entire manga that Sasuke would be definitively beaten by Naruto.
According to Minato, controlling the Kyuubi takes considerable effort and can't be maintain for long, so the Kyuubi likely wouldn't have been much of an advantage especially when Hashirama had his own counter for i.
There's little to no reason for Hashirama not to have been going all out against Madara, given that the era they lived in was of actual warfare. It would be ridiculous for him not to give everything he had, especially when it would have meant the survival of his fellow clansmen. Now considering Madara has sung Hashirama's praise, that's not something he would do against someone he didn't consider an actual opponent. And Hashirama not fighting seriously would not be an actual opponent.
Naruto always wanted to fight Sasuke. His issue was simply fighting Sasuke as fellow Konoha ninjas. Also, Naruto's usage of clones rarely had any actual tactical reasoning behind them. And Sasuke won VotE and up until presumably Naruto's mastery of the Kyuubi's chakra, Sasuke was superior in strength even by Naruto's own admission.
Okay, all of this was fine until number 3. That's not how the first fight went. As per the manga, the Uchiha and Senju were mercenary clans. Each time the Senju were hired, the Uchiha were hired to counter them. Each time the Uchiha were hired, the Senju were hired to counter them.Quote:
It was a rivalry. Madara didn't personally attack Hashirama the first time they met out of some test of his mettle. It was because it was necessary.
I think it was more of a "Minato vs. Raikage" thing. They fought... and then whatever job they were hired to do, was finished. At that point Hashirama simply left. Of all the wanking Madara did in Hashirama's name, take note that he only ever claims he defeated him once.Quote:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/399/2 Also notice Madara got famous for his fights with Hashirama. If he got his ass kicked every time they fought, he wouldn't be famous: he'd be a laughing stock.
No... the one battle that happened at the VOTE was to the death. He thought he was dead. Everyone did. If he didn't want the Uchiha living in the village to want vengeance for Madara, he wouldn't make it common knowledge that he killed him.Quote:
Well, like the scan I showed before hand, he was revered as Hashirama's rival FAR before their last battle.Quote:
Can you prove that he didn't originally have the Kyuubi the first time they fought?Quote:
I think this is a massive stretch. Remember: every battle they fought was buisiness. It wasn't personal until Madara got famous for standing against him time and time again. And then it was EXTRA personal at the Valley of the End. I simply think Hashirama didn't have to strength to kill Madara until after Mito sealed Kurama into her body.Quote:
Last edited by ninjabot; February 08, 2013 at 12:43 AM.
Now, consider your statements. Each time the Senju are hired by X, the Uchiha were hired by adversary of X. The manga did not precise whether there was a winner or a loser, and if such thing happened, we don't know how many times, or how they happened. The only crucial intel we have from the clan battle and from Konoha population is that, "The Senju might have fullfilled their duty, and assimilitate their employers to the clan". This is consistent with the fact that Konoha is mixed, and the fact that Uchiha were alone (basically without any clan as friend). I could even take the behavior of the two clan to state judge the nature of the employers of each clan, but it is not necessary.
My point here is that Uchiha vs Senju does not guarantee a Madara vs Hashimara. Thus, in my analysis, I assume that the first fight happened after Madara left the village.
PS: In fact, if they had fight before that day and be equal, it is unlikely that Hashimara would be chosen as Hokage unless Madara is considered as a bad person by his clan; or the Uchiha admitted that the Senju are stronger and it is in their best interest to accept the truce.
At least in their first battles, Madara did not have Kyuubi. The next battle he had Kyuubi with the intent of getting Hashimara's power. This additional Kyuubi and the fact that he place his life on the line to still Hashi's DNA tell me that Hashi was something he was aiming at. Hashi was what Madara wanted to become, and we have seen it since he was revived. Here I am talking about Hashimara's power. Also, if you add the recent behavior of Hashimara toward Tobirama as related to the Uchiha, it is likely that he is the guy same as Naruto.
PS: Minato vs Raikage is a fight in which Minato had no intent to kill. This example will support my argument because all my point here is that Hashimara never intended to kill Madara. Also Madara becoming famous because of his fight with Hashi is exactly my point. However, I am saying that the hype he got is not true, because Hashimara left him live each time. I doubt someone was there watching their fight given the scale. See for example Naruto vs Sasuke at VOTE.
You have an area were there are many people. You have someone who is unbeatable, and can beat anyone. Someday, everyone here that another guy challenged him and survives. Clearly, this other guys will become famous. Moreover, if no one among the fodders can beat this other guy, he will be seen as a legend as well until his ass his kicked by the boss.
Note: I understand your point, and I think we have to hope Kishi will tell us Hashimara's version of the story.
Madara did not want to become Hashirama, Madara if he wanted to be someone else like him he wanted to become the Sage of the Six Paths, but not Hashirama...
As i told you before, reverse the roles and make Hashirama the bad guy, the one whos attacking and taking one of Madaras eyes. Does Hashirama want to become Madara in that case? No! He wants his power, not becoming him. He wants power to get to a superior self.
Thats pure speculation that goes against the line the manga at least suggests. Its almost inevietable to them not fighting when their clans met in so many battles.Quote:
Thats everything but unlikely. Uchiha and Senju were the strongest clans, but it looks like Hashirama orginally came up with the idea founding Konoha and he appears to have the better leading skills compared to Madara when it comes to building a village.Quote:
Strength isn't a factor when it comes to good government.
Compare this to your country for instance, as many people in the United States seem to think that they need a very strong leader, a guy that shoots animals, goes hunting etc. etc. but that doesn't make him a good president at all.
Madara wouldve had to leave before the fight took place, he got abandoned by his clan which is why he left and challenged hashirama for the position, if he was still in the village that means he still had some followers otherwise he wouldnt have had to leave, he couldve planned a coup with his followers.
They came to peace cause they were tired of the constant wars. madara has said hashirama was stronger and judging from their personalities madara is a pompous dick and hashirama is a goofy guy so it makes sense he would get voted hokage over madara, id vote for him too. and your forgetting madara and hashirama were near equals other wise it wouldnt have been a fight to the death
Last edited by Kid Chameleone; February 08, 2013 at 01:30 PM.
@so6pww you keep calling the 1st Hokage Hashimara instead of Hashirama, is that on purpose?
How was Madara largely inferior to Hashirama? http://184.108.40.206/manga/mangas/Nar...UK_Page_02.png - They fought countless battles that ended in a dead-lock. You have misinterpreted their prowess.
Last edited by shahdan; February 10, 2013 at 07:55 AM.
I find it amusing how the OP's so called analyses and theories always seem to revolve around stripping away whatever accomplishments the Uchiha may have and putting the Senju & their friends on a golden pedestal... despite the mangas author blatantly trying to create a scenario without clear good & evil, portraying two equal factions which both did some mistakes, until it escalated into the future conflict we have now.
Last edited by LnDRash; February 20, 2013 at 01:32 PM.
Besides, I doubt the two men ever went easy on each other, considering the era and how they were always hired against each other. Why would they go easy since it'd put their clan in danger?
Naruto could have meant he and Sasuke would be equal in power or ideals that they'd end up killing each other for their side.
Tobi also said Madara became just as well known as Hashirama, and as we see every time Madara is brought up, people fear Madara. If Hashirama went easy on him or beat him, Madara would neither be as well known nor would he be feared the way he is now.Quote:
It was serious enough for Naruto that he resorted to rasengan. Even then, Sasuke still had the upper hand for the most part. He wasn't mad because Naruto got stronger than him, he was jealous because Naruto improved so much.Quote:
Even then, it doesn't mean Naruto went easy on Sasuke.
No, Sasuke did fodderize Naruto's clones. Naruto used them to hurt sasuke, not exhaust his power or reveal his jutsu. Sasuke still managed to own all of Naruto's kage bunshins like it was nothing, which only Kimimaro was able to.Quote:
It didn't display any comparison to Senu or Uchiha, at all. Otherwise you might as well say Uchiha > Senju as even with kage bunshin, Naruto never had any upper hand nor did he dominate against Sasuke who was recovering. Evenif Naruto was using tactic against Sasuke, who wasn't, he still wasn't able to hurt Sasuke.
There was never a one-sided fight between the two. Sasuke never lost the fight at rooftop. If you revisit the fight, you'll see it's a tie because Kakashi interfered. Neither side had an advantage over the other. I don't know where you got Sasuke losing from.Quote:
How did he lose the final clash? Both boys, once again, went easy and held back their intent to kill or cause damage. Sasuke could ahve killed Naruto if he wanted, he wasn't weak, even if he was bleeding. I don't recall where Sasuke noticed he lost the duel - do show me the page where he said that.
And how did this turn into Naruto vs. Sasuke? Are you using Hashirama vs. Madara to hate on Uchiha and to disguise attempt at attacking Sasuke?
Speaking by logic and history, Madara was like the older son of the Rikudou Sennin, while Hashirama was the younger one. They were probably pretty equal overall or else one wouldn't have waited so much time to kill the other and end this all for good.
The real difference was how people perceived the two as Shinobi. Madara was feared by his opponents, Hashirama was praised as God and had the charisma that even made the Uchiha clan follow his leadership. That's what Madara never had and the reason why Madara detested Hashirama so deeply; what consummated Madara as a man, hatred, had no effect over one certain man and it was Hashirama.
Never mind. We are about to hear out Hashirama. I'm sure he'll say something about Madara at some point, clarifying the situation.