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Madara Manipulating the shape of his Susanoo to strengthen Kyuubi or using Kyuubi's bomb in combination with his Susanoo sword to create a BijudamaShuriken is a testament to his skill. And I completely agree with this. The only thing I said is that though it is impressive, it is clearly understandable. And while some people are truly impressed by that, I tried to remind them that even this was a shape manipulation of chakra and Susanoo is nothing but chakra. Sasuke can also manipulate shape, and we all know that Sharingan is what give them this superiority in doing these stuff easily. I am not denying the fact that they have to be smart to think of it. Rather, I am saying it is not only a result of their brightness of mind, but also a push from their Sharingan power.
Similarly, Naruto transforming the beast chakra into Rasenchuriken is a testament to his skill. Naruto being able to create a tailed beast bomb in his human form has been pointed to be a testament to his strength and skill because it show how much he can manipulate the shape of a chakra and how he can balance the ratio. Naruto being able to convert the Kyuubi chakra and adapt it to the chakra of thousand of shinobi with individual unique trait his a testament to his skill. Naruto being able to seal the chakra into so many people in a couple of second is a testament to his skill. As you can see, the level at which Naruto is right now is far beyond what we know about Madara. People should not interpret mistakenly the fact that Kishi does not give him a lot of jutsu - this is because there is a need for balance.
From all the feat I listed about Naruto, plus the fact that he can easily manipulate the shape of Kurama's chakra to cover himself or create a hand for long range combat, it should be easily seen that in termed of learned skill, Naruto is far above Madara himself for someone who does not have eyes that can see everything up to nano-scale (see Deidara vs Sasuke's Sharingan).
While many prefer to label Naruto as stupid, or try to think that Madara or Hashirama cannot be surpassed, I think they are wrong. In terms of basic skill right now, Naruto has nothing less than Hashirama or Madara. In terms of understanding Jutsu, Naruto has nothing less than them either. The only think Naruto has less than them is that he do not have access to Uchiha forbidden Jutsu or Senju forbidden Jutsu. I mean, unlike Madara or Hasirama, he is not using the stone tablet or the scroll of sealing, which are obviously the source of information that Hashirama and Madara are using.
Sasuke has been reading the stone tablet since he got his two tomoe Sharingan while Naruto had to wait for providence to learn a Jutsu from a random person when needed by the Hokage. Give Naruto the scroll of sealing right now, and you will see how far he is above all the people who are being thought as impossible to be surpassed. He is already the ultimate Shinobi skill-wise, and I bet we will see what I am saying very soon.
Last edited by so6pww; February 23, 2013 at 02:39 PM.
Also I have to make something clear I never said madara as so weak at all, I claim he was weaker never claim that he was so weak that hashirama can one shot ko the guy if he get serious or something like that. Also I have the believe that madara+kuuybi is stronger than madara that why I come to that belief, and I am asumming madara left the village to get more power which is kurama before he return to attack for the betray he felt not that he have kurama with him way before the founding of the village. It's more logical than coming up with some reason like he left cause he was betray and he spend on few day thinking over then come back to attack the village.
Also your example of naruto and bunta doesn't really apply here since madara is controlling the two susanoo arm that hold the sword, it would be more like naruto cover bunta in kurama's chakra mode and throw some of his chakra arm at the enemy plus bunta attacking with the water blast.
On another note, he are forgetting that with the kuuybi it didn't make big difference for we saw that hashirama could stop the biju dama alone or the sword strike alone but when they combine all he could do was try to change it direction and it clearly make a different, hashirama even said he was amaze by it power as it can "reach the other side".
Last edited by huynhlan; February 24, 2013 at 01:15 AM.
Why am I not allowed to "downplay" Hashirama, but you're allowed to downplay Madara? Neither of us has any fact, but it seems you don't mind saying whatever to make Hashirama look better or Madara look weaker. Kushina said during the fight, not after the fight. It could be interpreted differently, but that's hard to believe. If you have a better and more credible source of translation, feel free to provide it. I honestly don't care either way, I'm just more annoyed at the double standard/Madara being downplayed and Hashirama being wanked. But, too many things imply Madara lost control of Kyuubi during the fight, and fought with his own power.
He could have considered himself truly dead as when we saw him, he couldn't go out of his underground or do much, if at all. Only thing he could do was create Zetsu and plan things. He would have died, but Rinnegan somehow allowed him to bring Gedo Mazou to his side and attach to Madara so he could keep living. Once he and the Mazou disconnected, he died immediately.
I'm not sure if Madara left to get more power, it looks like he could have had Kyuubi by his side long before then. But, there's no right or wrong here until it's confirmed. You could be right, I could be right. Pointless to talk about it as we'll be goin gback and forth.Quote:
Not really, it's not more logical. He could have been thrown out of the village or been so looked at with suspicion he couldn't stay there. Maybe he planned on what to do or as you said, went to look for more power, but other than the Kyuubi.
But you did claim that Madara throughout the fights with Hashirama was weak or weaker than Hashirama. My point was that the manga implies or says that they were more of an equal.
Meh. Guess we differ here, as I don't consider bijuu part of anyone's power, whether someone like Madara or Hashirama or a jinchuuriki.Quote:
Funny thing is though that Madara is fighting with Kyuubi. Hashirama's basically stopping Kyuubi's attacks, as well as some of Madara's Susano'o. Let's how how he does against Madara himself, not Kyuubi or Madara with Kyuubi.
For the longest time I've had the pet theory that maybe Hashirama couldn't bring himself to kill Madara, assuming the opportunity arose. But losing the fight, and even being spared by Hashirama at the end of this fight could have been humiliating to someone like Madara... perhaps being spared would be an even bigger insult. Though his plan and clinging to life in a hole to see his plan through would seem to suggest otherwise.
One thing though - wasn't Madara alone before he developed the Rinnegan? It was his ability to summon the Gedo Mazo once he had the Rinnegan that I believe allowed him to cultivate the Zetsu's. He prolonged his life and used Hashirama's cells, etc. But it seems like he had a rather bleak existince while waiting around and trying to develop the rinnegan. Anyway, I think the Zetsu, etc. came after the demonic statue was summoned, which means Madara seems to have been alone.
Looking back, I enjoyed the flashback with Madara being alive. Re-reading this NOW makes what Tobirama said all teh more resonating... especially this:
Quite unlikely, given Madara had full usage of his abilities later on. Plus, there would have been no reason to spread the belief that Madara was dead.
Hashirama most likely did kill Madara... from the looks of it Madara was so far gone that Hashirama thought the old Madara won't ever come back, and that killing him was the best thing for Konoha and Madara himself. Hashirama genuinely tried to kill Madara and for some reason, failed.
Like with Anakin, did Madara fail to die because of his hatred? <_<
Now, even though sealing can seal the soul, there is always a counter as we saw with Orochimaru. In Madara's case, we saw that Madara was operating behind the scene, and the fact that he gave his Rinnegan to Nagato is proof that he was damaged.
Madara was gonna die because he was more then a hundred years old, several decades older then Onoki. It had nothing to do with his abilities or some presumed lost. And Madara awoke his Rinnegan when he was actually dying, not losing out to cell overgrowth.
He gave his Rinnegan to Nagato because he was plotting to be revived so he could eventually become the Juubi Jinchuuriki. And there's still the question of why Hashirama would allow people to believe Madara was dead...
Well, as a last word, I think recent chapters have proved that I am not totally wrong. As I said before, Madara was spared many times, or he ran away with his clan many times before the Senjus. As I said, Madara seemed to be always beaten, then go for reinforcement of all kind. I guess we have to wait for Hashirama's conclusion of the VOTE fight.
Since I want us to continue our discussion, I hope we will not learn that Hashirama spared Madara's life willingly. This will at least give some hope to the Uchiha fans.
I think their rivalry was a positive one, at least before Tobirama opened his big mouth.