Rivalry between Hashimara and Madara - Let Discuss Fair and Square!

[so6pww]

Of course it doesn't make any sense, that's the point. Your birthright does not count as a testament to your strength. Madara controlling the Kyuubi is his birthright, not a testament to his skill or prowess. Him cladding the Kyuubi with Susanoo is a testament to his skill indeed, him slicing mountains is a testament to his prowess in combat. But controlling the Kyuubi...No.

You are right, but many will always refuse this obviously logical fact. Naruto having a Kyuubi inside him was his birth right as it was left to him by his parent to secure the future. Naruto having a body that can give enough power to restrain the Kyuubi is a gift he did not work for similar to Madara having a Sharingan that can tame the Kyuubi. None of them worked to obtain these power.

Madara Manipulating the shape of his Susanoo to strengthen Kyuubi or using Kyuubi's bomb in combination with his Susanoo sword to create a BijudamaShuriken is a testament to his skill. And I completely agree with this. The only thing I said is that though it is impressive, it is clearly understandable. And while some people are truly impressed by that, I tried to remind them that even this was a shape manipulation of chakra and Susanoo is nothing but chakra. Sasuke can also manipulate shape, and we all know that Sharingan is what give them this superiority in doing these stuff easily. I am not denying the fact that they have to be smart to think of it. Rather, I am saying it is not only a result of their brightness of mind, but also a push from their Sharingan power.

Similarly, Naruto transforming the beast chakra into Rasenchuriken is a testament to his skill. Naruto being able to create a tailed beast bomb in his human form has been pointed to be a testament to his strength and skill because it show how much he can manipulate the shape of a chakra and how he can balance the ratio. Naruto being able to convert the Kyuubi chakra and adapt it to the chakra of thousand of shinobi with individual unique trait his a testament to his skill. Naruto being able to seal the chakra into so many people in a couple of second is a testament to his skill. As you can see, the level at which Naruto is right now is far beyond what we know about Madara. People should not interpret mistakenly the fact that Kishi does not give him a lot of jutsu - this is because there is a need for balance.

From all the feat I listed about Naruto, plus the fact that he can easily manipulate the shape of Kurama's chakra to cover himself or create a hand for long range combat, it should be easily seen that in termed of learned skill, Naruto is far above Madara himself for someone who does not have eyes that can see everything up to nano-scale (see Deidara vs Sasuke's Sharingan).

While many prefer to label Naruto as stupid, or try to think that Madara or Hashirama cannot be surpassed, I think they are wrong. In terms of basic skill right now, Naruto has nothing less than Hashirama or Madara. In terms of understanding Jutsu, Naruto has nothing less than them either. The only think Naruto has less than them is that he do not have access to Uchiha forbidden Jutsu or Senju forbidden Jutsu. I mean, unlike Madara or Hasirama, he is not using the stone tablet or the scroll of sealing, which are obviously the source of information that Hashirama and Madara are using.

Sasuke has been reading the stone tablet since he got his two tomoe Sharingan while Naruto had to wait for providence to learn a Jutsu from a random person when needed by the Hokage. Give Naruto the scroll of sealing right now, and you will see how far he is above all the people who are being thought as impossible to be surpassed. He is already the ultimate Shinobi skill-wise, and I bet we will see what I am saying very soon.

[huynhlan]

No it's not, both are unrelated. Mito became a jinchuuriki to help Hashirama while he was fighting Madara. Hashirama was said to have died way after the fight with Madara while Mito became a jinchuuriki during that fight.

But you are downplaying Madara by claiming that he's so weak despite all logic proving otherwise. But I never said Mito helped Hashirama win, all I said was that she sealed the Kyuubi in her. if you think that's helping Hashirama win, then that's on you, not me. I'm not the one thinking Mito helped Hashirama win, unless she actually attacked Madara herself.


I'm not a fan of Madara, at all. I'm just unbiased enough to see the truth. I actually disliked Madara, to put it lightly, for what he did to Naruto's family.


where does it make a big difference? Hashirama's still blocking it without effort.

And yes, he does have to be Hashirama's equal or near it. Combating/finishing mission isn't enough since anyone can just say Madara got spared only because of the mission. I don't see how mission can even be used as an excuse as both clans would have fought to the death, regardless of mission or not. If Hashirama had a mission, madara would continue to attack him. If Madara had a mission, Hashirama would continue to attack as well to stop him.

And Naruto was still known as a dunce or an idiot. He didn't gain respect until he fought Kiba and proved himself.




I'm saying Madara himself isn't engaged in battle, not that he's not taking part in fight. Think of Naruto summoning Bunta, jumping on Bunta's head, and tellin him what to do without doing anything himself. That's what Madara's doing, fighting with another's power. All he did was give Kyuubi an armor.

First of all you actually think mito stopping the kuuybi mean she didn't interfer in the fight? on come on that it's basically like like saying hashirama won by his wife assitance, she don't have to physically attack madara to be call interfering or helping her husband, what she is doing is basically something like distracting madara or keeping him away from let said his war fan how is that not interfering and basically downplaying hashirama. Also again the kuuybi flashback and the fact that she is not present yet still make my belief a possiblity, we have see before in the manga when word from the character are not alway true and can be interpret differently, look at madara, he said he he awaken the rinnegan shortly before his death, how is that true in any way, the dude live like a decade afterward.

Also I have to make something clear I never said madara as so weak at all, I claim he was weaker never claim that he was so weak that hashirama can one shot ko the guy if he get serious or something like that. Also I have the believe that madara+kuuybi is stronger than madara that why I come to that belief, and I am asumming madara left the village to get more power which is kurama before he return to attack for the betray he felt not that he have kurama with him way before the founding of the village. It's more logical than coming up with some reason like he left cause he was betray and he spend on few day thinking over then come back to attack the village.

Also your example of naruto and bunta doesn't really apply here since madara is controlling the two susanoo arm that hold the sword, it would be more like naruto cover bunta in kurama's chakra mode and throw some of his chakra arm at the enemy plus bunta attacking with the water blast.
On another note, he are forgetting that with the kuuybi it didn't make big difference for we saw that hashirama could stop the biju dama alone or the sword strike alone but when they combine all he could do was try to change it direction and it clearly make a different, hashirama even said he was amaze by it power as it can "reach the other side".

[M3J]

First of all you actually think mito stopping the kuuybi mean she didn't interfer in the fight? on come on that it's basically like like saying hashirama won by his wife assitance, she don't have to physically attack madara to be call interfering or helping her husband, what she is doing is basically something like distracting madara or keeping him away from let said his war fan how is that not interfering and basically downplaying hashirama. Also again the kuuybi flashback and the fact that she is not present yet still make my belief a possiblity, we have see before in the manga when word from the character are not alway true and can be interpret differently, look at madara, he said he he awaken the rinnegan shortly before his death, how is that true in any way, the dude live like a decade afterward.

Or, what if Hashirama got the Kyuubi and imprisoned it far away, and the fight resumed? If Kyuubi was close to breakinig out, then Mito could have sealed it in her. Or, the Kyuubi broke free from Madara's control somehow and ran far away or decided to rampage on both.

Why am I not allowed to "downplay" Hashirama, but you're allowed to downplay Madara? Neither of us has any fact, but it seems you don't mind saying whatever to make Hashirama look better or Madara look weaker. Kushina said during the fight, not after the fight. It could be interpreted differently, but that's hard to believe. If you have a better and more credible source of translation, feel free to provide it. I honestly don't care either way, I'm just more annoyed at the double standard/Madara being downplayed and Hashirama being wanked. But, too many things imply Madara lost control of Kyuubi during the fight, and fought with his own power.

He could have considered himself truly dead as when we saw him, he couldn't go out of his underground or do much, if at all. Only thing he could do was create Zetsu and plan things. He would have died, but Rinnegan somehow allowed him to bring Gedo Mazou to his side and attach to Madara so he could keep living. Once he and the Mazou disconnected, he died immediately.

Also I have to make something clear I never said madara as so weak at all, I claim he was weaker never claim that he was so weak that hashirama can one shot ko the guy if he get serious or something like that. Also I have the believe that madara+kuuybi is stronger than madara that why I come to that belief, and I am asumming madara left the village to get more power which is kurama before he return to attack for the betray he felt not that he have kurama with him way before the founding of the village. It's more logical than coming up with some reason like he left cause he was betray and he spend on few day thinking over then come back to attack the village.

I'm not sure if Madara left to get more power, it looks like he could have had Kyuubi by his side long before then. But, there's no right or wrong here until it's confirmed. You could be right, I could be right. Pointless to talk about it as we'll be goin gback and forth.

Not really, it's not more logical. He could have been thrown out of the village or been so looked at with suspicion he couldn't stay there. Maybe he planned on what to do or as you said, went to look for more power, but other than the Kyuubi.

But you did claim that Madara throughout the fights with Hashirama was weak or weaker than Hashirama. My point was that the manga implies or says that they were more of an equal.

Also your example of naruto and bunta doesn't really apply here since madara is controlling the two susanoo arm that hold the sword, it would be more like naruto cover bunta in kurama's chakra mode and throw some of his chakra arm at the enemy plus bunta attacking with the water blast.
On another note, he are forgetting that with the kuuybi it didn't make big difference for we saw that hashirama could stop the biju dama alone or the sword strike alone but when they combine all he could do was try to change it direction and it clearly make a different, hashirama even said he was amaze by it power as it can "reach the other side".

Meh. Guess we differ here, as I don't consider bijuu part of anyone's power, whether someone like Madara or Hashirama or a jinchuuriki.

Funny thing is though that Madara is fighting with Kyuubi. Hashirama's basically stopping Kyuubi's attacks, as well as some of Madara's Susano'o. Let's how how he does against Madara himself, not Kyuubi or Madara with Kyuubi.

[KingOfNight]

If you are bringing those lines into discussion where Madara declared this control his birth right, then he was obviously being typically arrogant. That doesn't detract from his status as one of the two most powerful shinobis in Narutoverse.

Well, I didn't argue against him being one of the two most powerful dudes.

[jalix]

He could have considered himself truly dead as when we saw him, he couldn't go out of his underground or do much, if at all. Only thing he could do was create Zetsu and plan things. He would have died, but Rinnegan somehow allowed him to bring Gedo Mazou to his side and attach to Madara so he could keep living. Once he and the Mazou disconnected, he died immediately.

Yeah at this point what led to the end is speculation adn prediction, so hey, it's on topic! But it's too early to really tell for sure. But I don't know, I think Madara's still using a jutsu to control the Kyuubi so that is his ability, even if it isn't as taxing perhaps. But I think the end of the fight may have some surprises for us, even though we **should** know how it ended.

For the longest time I've had the pet theory that maybe Hashirama couldn't bring himself to kill Madara, assuming the opportunity arose. But losing the fight, and even being spared by Hashirama at the end of this fight could have been humiliating to someone like Madara... perhaps being spared would be an even bigger insult. Though his plan and clinging to life in a hole to see his plan through would seem to suggest otherwise.

One thing though - wasn't Madara alone before he developed the Rinnegan? It was his ability to summon the Gedo Mazo once he had the Rinnegan that I believe allowed him to cultivate the Zetsu's. He prolonged his life and used Hashirama's cells, etc. But it seems like he had a rather bleak existince while waiting around and trying to develop the rinnegan. Anyway, I think the Zetsu, etc. came after the demonic statue was summoned, which means Madara seems to have been alone.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c603/

Looking back, I enjoyed the flashback with Madara being alive. Re-reading this NOW makes what Tobirama said all teh more resonating... especially this:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c602/18.html




[/QUOTE]

[so6pww]

Yeah at this point what led to the end is speculation adn prediction, so hey, it's on topic! But it's too early to really tell for sure. But I don't know, I think Madara's still using a jutsu to control the Kyuubi so that is his ability, even if it isn't as taxing perhaps. But I think the end of the fight may have some surprises for us, even though we **should** know how it ended.

For the longest time I've had the pet theory that maybe Hashirama couldn't bring himself to kill Madara, assuming the opportunity arose. But losing the fight, and even being spared by Hashirama at the end of this fight could have been humiliating to someone like Madara... perhaps being spared would be an even bigger insult. Though his plan and clinging to life in a hole to see his plan through would seem to suggest otherwise.

One thing though - wasn't Madara alone before he developed the Rinnegan? It was his ability to summon the Gedo Mazo once he had the Rinnegan that I believe allowed him to cultivate the Zetsu's. He prolonged his life and used Hashirama's cells, etc. But it seems like he had a rather bleak existince while waiting around and trying to develop the rinnegan. Anyway, I think the Zetsu, etc. came after the demonic statue was summoned, which means Madara seems to have been alone.

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c603/

Looking back, I enjoyed the flashback with Madara being alive. Re-reading this NOW makes what Tobirama said all teh more resonating... especially this:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c602/18.html

[/QUOTE]

Maybe Hashirama beat him, and sealed his Jutsu somehow like Hiruzen did with Orochimaru.

[Rikudou King]

Quite unlikely, given Madara had full usage of his abilities later on. Plus, there would have been no reason to spread the belief that Madara was dead.

[M3J]

Hashirama most likely did kill Madara... from the looks of it Madara was so far gone that Hashirama thought the old Madara won't ever come back, and that killing him was the best thing for Konoha and Madara himself. Hashirama genuinely tried to kill Madara and for some reason, failed.

Like with Anakin, did Madara fail to die because of his hatred? <_<

[so6pww]

Quite unlikely, given Madara had full usage of his abilities later on. Plus, there would have been no reason to spread the belief that Madara was dead.

Cheese! Where did you see in the manga Madara having full usage of his abilities? We only saw him in Obito's flashback hanging on a life support.

[Rikudou King]

Cheese! Where did you see in the manga Madara having full usage of his abilities? We only saw him in Obito's flashback hanging on a life support.

He was capable of using genjutsu and Mokuton, and summoning. And he's currently using his abilities despite us knowing that sealings and limits transcend the physical body.

[so6pww]

He was capable of using genjutsu and Mokuton, and summoning. And he's currently using his abilities despite us knowing that sealings and limits transcend the physical body.

No, no, and no. We saw in Obito's flashback that Madara himself would die if he were to disconnect from the life support. Madara himself said that he was pumping chakra through that Hashirama thread, and using Gedo Mazou power to make the Zetsu. A guy like that wasn't using his full abilities to me. As far as I am concerned, I gave you a possibility that Hashirama could have sealed Madara's power. As you know, Madara said he unlocked Rinnegan shortly before his death. While some people do not like this, I think it is consistent. Madara said to Obito that he unlocked Rinnegan when his life force was almost depleted. This tell you that at this moment, Hashirama's cell took over his body and fused with the Sharingan, giving the Rinnegan. Thus the Madara you saw was more like a regular human being with a Sharingan and feeding on an Hashirama's energy supply. The real Madara's life force was gone. This is why he said that he unlocked Rinnegan shortly before his death.

Now, even though sealing can seal the soul, there is always a counter as we saw with Orochimaru. In Madara's case, we saw that Madara was operating behind the scene, and the fact that he gave his Rinnegan to Nagato is proof that he was damaged.

[Rikudou King]

Madara was gonna die because he was more then a hundred years old, several decades older then Onoki. It had nothing to do with his abilities or some presumed lost. And Madara awoke his Rinnegan when he was actually dying, not losing out to cell overgrowth.

He gave his Rinnegan to Nagato because he was plotting to be revived so he could eventually become the Juubi Jinchuuriki. And there's still the question of why Hashirama would allow people to believe Madara was dead...

[so6pww]

Well, as a last word, I think recent chapters have proved that I am not totally wrong. As I said before, Madara was spared many times, or he ran away with his clan many times before the Senjus. As I said, Madara seemed to be always beaten, then go for reinforcement of all kind. I guess we have to wait for Hashirama's conclusion of the VOTE fight.

Since I want us to continue our discussion, I hope we will not learn that Hashirama spared Madara's life willingly. This will at least give some hope to the Uchiha fans.

[Rikudou King]

Well, as a last word, I think recent chapters have proved that I am not totally wrong. As I said before, Madara was spared many times, or he ran away with his clan many times before the Senjus. As I said, Madara seemed to be always beaten, then go for reinforcement of all kind. I guess we have to wait for Hashirama's conclusion of the VOTE fight.

Since I want us to continue our discussion, I hope we will not learn that Hashirama spared Madara's life willingly. This will at least give some hope to the Uchiha fans.

And where exactly was any of that shown? We only see one time of Madara retreating, to save his dying brother. That's clearly not a regular situations. And one time that Hashirama spared him, at a time when Madara basically had a death wish. You can't even say that Madara had been going all out, especially given the fact that

he stopped Hashirama from killing himself.

[Ryr]

I think their rivalry was a positive one, at least before Tobirama opened his big mouth.