Naruto 312

The second sounds more correct but this line was a real tough one and the guy swears it's the meaning in the first (of course, being Japanese doesn't make him right) so can you guys check this line? If it is wrong then every translation is wrong. :darnI racked my brain over it, and I've come to the conclusion that you are be being right.

I was so totally thrown off by my own forced "natural" interpretation of the dialogue between Kakuzu and Hidan (just friendly jerking around with one another) that I completely ignored the rest of the context (Hidan's character). Kakuzu says "don't let your guard down", which inherently implies that Hidan is going to have to "keep his guard up", which is tiring... at least for the type of person Hidan is... and this is sort of exampled by his getting down on himself on the previous page.

And the なら is very important as well... as is the よ (as opposed to a だろう)... and those are the things that I was really ignoring *sigh*

More like "If that's the case, then I *want* her to kill me, seriously"... *tah dah*

Anyhow, I just checked with my wife and she agrees with that interpretation too (and isn't even the least bit willing to entertain an alternative).

Oh *sigh*... Will there ever come a day when I'm not worked over by what are, in the end, incredibly simple lines... *sigh*

... at least it's not all that vital a line.

What does どうせなら mean?

What does どうせなら mean?どうせなら and どうせ are really a bitch to explain in English, since there really isn't any good equivalent (and どうせ is really more so an expression of feeling anyway)...

I'll try to get around to writing an explanation tomorrow...

hey nihongaerian, I know what you mean. I actually "corrected" another translator to the incorrect version *shame*. But I checked it with two Japanes folks, and as you say, they are unwilling to admit it could mean anything other. *sigh*

I don't usually think the lack of Subject/object is hard but this one was really confusing.

I don't usually think the lack of Subject/object is hard but this one was really confusing.Yeah... I read Japanese academic journals, newspaper articles on politics, and Japanese novels regularly, and typically don't have much of a problem understanding what's written... But then I run into something like this, and hell... Gets me depressed, honestly. I think there might be something about that line that has a tendency to confuse people with a more English-oriented mind.

[me=Nihongaeri]wonders if a Korean studying Japanese would have a problem with the line...[/me]

Yeah... I read Japanese academic journals, newspaper articles on politics, and Japanese novels regularly, and typically don't have much of a problem understanding what's written... But then I run into something like this, and hell... Gets me depressed, honestly. I think there might be something about that line that has a tendency to confuse people with a more English-oriented mind.

[me=Nihongaeri]wonders if a Korean studying Japanese would have a problem with the line...[/me]


I could find out...? I know one korean that studies Japanese :p

I could find out...? I know one korean that studies Japanese :pHey, if you get the chance...

But then I run into something like this, and hell... Gets me depressed, honestly. I think there might be something about that line that has a tendency to confuse people with a more English-oriented mind.


Well, I mean I know I'm nowhere near your level of Japanese, but I always feel like reaching for the revolver whenever I see "-te hoshii." It's like DAMNED-JAPANESE-LANGUAGE-WHO-THE-FUCK-WANTS-WHOM-TO-DO-WHAT-FOR-WHOM ... from what I gather, though, the only reason the "correct" interpretation of this particular line is so clear-cut to native Japanese speakers is because they've heard it used in a similar context many times before.

I guess you could call it "idiomatic interpretation", if you will.

I've met native Japanese speakers (married to Mexicans) who've lived in Mexico for decades and decades and they *still* have trouble with the Spanish equivalents to "The/a/an..."

I often find myself at a loss as to how to explain the "correct" way to use them, and I've come to the conclusion that, when you get right down to it, *usage* is king. Sure, maybe our first language hardwires us into interpreting things a certain way, but only when the grammar leaves room for interpretation.

Now, in this particular example, usage would seem to be pissing all over the typical relationship between grammar and semantics. "-te hoshii" is "want killed", not "want for (someone to) *try* to kill." Oh, sure, the -te form is vague, but basically you have to know *beforehand* that the potentinal interpretation "want to be killed" is not literally "want to be killed", in order to even consider it...

Like sarcasm - how do you know when someone means the opposite of what he or she is saying if the context could have it go both ways? Well, usage would have to override "context."

I'm not sure I'm making any sense here, but try not to beat yourself up over matters of usage, Nick.
:)

I often find myself at a loss as to how to explain the "correct" way to use them, and I've come to the conclusion that, when you get right down to it, *usage* is king.Grammar (of the descriptive variety) is a real bitch, in my experience. Very, very smart people spend tons and tons of time trying to explain the inner workings of grammar in an explicit and cognitive manner, but there's still much that's open to debate. There's obviously some kind of system there, but in reality it becomes very hard to pin in down in specific terms. And in the end, all reference grammars that I've seen (granted only of English and Japanese), end up coping out at least on some level.

But still most all humans acquire well over 90% of the grammar of their first language before their tenth birthday... and most all of that is done without any kind of explicit instruction.


*sigh* ... I'm still depressed... :s


But I just realized something today. I bought an iPod yesterday (trend-whore) and started downloading recordings of Japanese radio programs. I have very little problem understanding 95%+ percent of what their talking about for the economic segments I was listening to... but it's is a bitch (probably just over 80% comprehension-wise) for me to understand what they're talking about in some of the more "low-level" radio talk shows. It's hard to pick out what they say and even when I do I'll run into language usage that goes over my head...

Anywho, what I realized was this... it would, for the most part, be the exact opposite when I'm listening to English radio programs over here. I have an easier time understanding the "low-level" radio talk shows than I do more sophisticated discussions of politics, economics, etc.

I don't really know what that means though...

hehhee... how i wish i have the same level of Nihongo! hehe..

@ S.Slayer
LOL, i really understand that. When i go watch movie i can pretty much understand 'normal-talking-people' is trying to say (although there are 'hi-level' words that i don't understand), but i can't quite figure 80 % what Snoop Dog is saying, not even if he write down what he was saying -_-