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Kaoz
May 06, 2010, 07:47 AM
Could you please elaborate then in which ways you think they are 'far worse'?

It's easier to adress specific points than all those characters in general.

javimgol
May 06, 2010, 01:46 PM
Could you please elaborate then in which ways you think they are 'far worse'?

It's easier to adress specific points than all those characters in general.

Inui, Momo and Kaidoh have very different Effects, so it's quite difficult to guess what are you exactly going to handle. Moreover, they have good benefits in doubles and, if I don't remember wrong, some of them form Tier Pairs.
And I don't want to talk about boosts...just look Inui's boost points (he was able to bit my Yagyyu, a 38 point player!), or Kaidoh's Effects.

It's nice to have such a wonderful players. What it isn't fair is that they cost the same as Akutsu and Hiyoshi, or only 2 points more than Krauser, for example

-Ken-
May 06, 2010, 03:33 PM
They have that benefit because they deserve it. It's been shown that it's like that in the manga. I got no idea for Akutsu, but I thought he's already got some special pair. I guess Atobe/Hiyoshi special pair might work.

javimgol
May 08, 2010, 04:35 PM
What is exactly "decisive match", sth that appears in several Feats?
Only a S1 with 2-2? Or it's also a D1 with you losing 1-2 or a S2 with 0-2 losing?

Kaoz
May 08, 2010, 05:08 PM
What is exactly "decisive match", sth that appears in several Feats?
Only a S1 with 2-2? Or it's also a D1 with you losing 1-2 or a S2 with 0-2 losing?

"Decisive matches" include all matches that would make one player win/lose the round, so all of those you described are decisive matches but not only for the player behind but also for the leading player.

I hope that made things clear, somehow I can't find the right words at the moment.

Bowser
May 09, 2010, 09:48 AM
D1 and S1 are always decisive and possibly S2 if you lose the two matches before that.

Sai_the_Shaman
May 13, 2010, 03:18 PM
I made a poll. Its form the last two characters of the low tier we need to round it to a nice round number. Everyone, please choose 2!

javimgol
May 13, 2010, 04:58 PM
Chitose's sis is awesome. Auto-win for her VS her brother and thief-bro
Arai is simply pathetic, we need him

Also, Kadowaki-Richard need a Formation (look at Old Season 2, they were with Sakuno the pillars of my team)

Zatono
May 13, 2010, 06:39 PM
Chitose's sis should definitely make the cut since she's basically a complete badass for taking on really old looking middle schoolers and winning a tennis tournament.

-Ken-
May 13, 2010, 06:48 PM
I'll won't vote for now, so many interesting character really, quite hard to pick.

Bowser
May 14, 2010, 11:07 AM
She got owned by Shishigakus player even though shes not in middle schooler yet.

I propose we make Horio the strongest char in the game and give him a feat "Two Years of experience", in which he drops all stats. Urayama would be awesome.

Sai_the_Shaman
May 14, 2010, 11:17 AM
yeah I voted for Urayama XD

No one cares for Michiru though...::sigh:: I guess I like him mainly cause he's fun to use in Form the Strongest Team.

Kaoz
May 14, 2010, 11:21 AM
Hmm I'd like to have Michiru, but I guess that's not gonna happen... as for Miyuki and Urayama, anyone is better than Horio...

Bowser
May 14, 2010, 12:18 PM
Don't underestimate his two years of experience!

Kaoz
May 14, 2010, 05:36 PM
Here we go, two new season 3 spoilers:

Matsudaira Chikahiko (7, 7, 8, 7, 32)
Serve and Volley; Right Handed

-Golden Magnum Serve [Serve]:
(1)Matsudaira's Power is boosted by 7 points, his Spin and Speed are boosted by 4 points each.
(2)In Singles, when the opponent's Power and Speed are both 11 or higher, this Serve is negated.

-Dash [Effect]:
Matsudaira's Speed is boosted by 4 points and he can activate an additional Effect.

-Dunk Smash [Effect]:
Matsudaira's Power is boosted by 5 points. Each of the opponent's stats drops by 1 point.


Nakagauchi Sotomichi (9, 9, 9, 9, 36)
Agressive Baseliner; Right Handed

-Overpower [Feat]:
As long as Nakagauchi's Power is higher than his opponent's, his Spin and Control cannot drop and his Serves/Effects cannot be negated.

-Service Mastery [Feat]:
Nakagauchi can activate a second serve in lieu of an Effect.

-Trick Serve [Serve]:
Nakagauchi's Power and Spin are boosted by 4 points each. The Opponent's Control drops by 2 points.

-Controlled Serve [Serve]:
Nakagauchi's Power is boosted by 2, Control by 7 points.

-Full Power Serve [Serve]:
Nakagauchi's Power is boosted by 10 points.

-Power Rising [Effect]:
The opponent's stats drop by 1 point each. When the opponent uses a Serve, that Serve is negated and all of the opponent's stats drop by 2 points instead.

javimgol
May 16, 2010, 10:49 AM
Here we go, two new season 3 spoilers:

Matsudaira Chikahiko (7, 7, 8, 7, 32)
Serve and Volley; Right Handed

-Golden Magnum Serve [Serve]:
(1)Matsudaira's Power is boosted by 7 points, his Spin and Speed are boosted by 4 points each.
(2)In Singles, when the opponent's Power and Speed are both 11 or higher, this Serve is negated.

-Dash [Effect]:
Matsudaira's Speed is boosted by 4 points and he can activate an additional Effect.

-Dunk Smash [Effect]:
Matsudaira's Power is boosted by 5 points. Each of the opponent's stats drops by 1 point.


Nakagauchi Sotomichi (9, 9, 9, 9, 36)
Agressive Baseliner; Right Handed

-Overpower [Feat]:
As long as Nakagauchi's Power is higher than his opponent's, his Spin and Control cannot drop and his Serves/Effects cannot be negated.

-Service Mastery [Feat]:
Nakagauchi can activate a second serve in lieu of an Effect.

-Trick Serve [Serve]:
Nakagauchi's Power and Spin are boosted by 4 points each. The Opponent's Control drops by 2 points.

-Controlled Serve [Serve]:
Nakagauchi's Power is boosted by 2, Control by 7 points.

-Full Power Serve [Serve]:
Nakagauchi's Power is boosted by 10 points.

-Power Rising [Effect]:
The opponent's stats drop by 1 point each. When the opponent uses a Serve, that Serve is negated and all of the opponent's stats drop by 2 points instead.

Who is Chitahiko, the goatee or his partner?

Bowser
May 16, 2010, 10:58 AM
The one that looks a bit like Matsudaira...goatee guys called Miyako I think.

javimgol
May 17, 2010, 01:57 PM
Silver Pair should be upgraded, costing more points of course, next season.

There should be the downgraded version of Golden Pair: if GP costs 50 points,Champion 60 (but they are pretty useful in Singles), and Funny Pair 46, they should cost 46 or 48. Just improve their Feats slighty and make Inducement Formation stop Effects too and impossible to be countered

Zatono
May 17, 2010, 02:31 PM
You know, it's funny with these pairs. In a decisive match, the Silver Pair would beat the Comedy Pair, but the Comedy Pair would beat the Champion Pair, and the Champion Pair would beat the Silver Pair. GP just beats all of them.

Kaoz
May 18, 2010, 02:33 PM
Following is a list of Special Pairs that we might implement next season:

Ryoga/Ryoma
Sanada/Atobe
Yamato/Tezuka
(Tezuka/Miyuki)
Fuji/Saeki
Fuji/Yuuta
Chitose/Tachibana
(Chitose/Miyuki)
Tachibana/An
Akutsu/Kawamura
Akutsu/Dan
Oshitari/Kenya
Marui/Akutagawa
Momoshiro/Kamio
Gin/Kawamura
Gin/Tetsu
Kamio/An
Ryou/Atsushi

If you think there is a pair that is either on the list but shouldn't be there or a air that isn't there but should be in your opinion, please make a statement.
Also I'd like you to give reasons why X pair should/should not be a Special Pair.

The bolded ones are the ones we already have this season.
As Miyuki already has 8 votes I put her on the list as well.

Zatono
May 18, 2010, 02:47 PM
I don't get Ryoma/Tezuka. I know they have that whole Pillar of Support thing going, but they're not THAT close to each other that they should be one of the special pairs.

-Ken-
May 18, 2010, 02:54 PM
Ryoma/Kin-chan><!!!

If Ryoma/Tezuka is there, they should be there too.

Zatono
May 18, 2010, 02:58 PM
I like the Ryoga/Ryoma pair since you're basically sacrificing two singles to completely demolish any team possible xD.

Kaoz
May 18, 2010, 03:04 PM
I'm not sure about Tezuka and Ryoma, I put them there because of the Pillar of Support, they came to my mind after I added Yamato/Tezuka.

Ryoma and Kintarou, not really, they both fail so much at Doubles, it's not even funny... I guess I should scratch Ryoma/Tezuka for the same reason.
[hr]

I like the Ryoga/Ryoma pair since you're basically sacrificing two singles to completely demolish any team possible xD.

That's a pair I could actually see working, Ryoga doesn't seem that obsessed with hitting everything as Ryoma and Kintarou are, so he might cover the rest of the court and finish the opponent or something, dunno.

Bowser
May 18, 2010, 03:15 PM
Yukimura/Sanada...they were gonna be a double pair until they had to face each other...

Atobe/Hiyoshi - captain pair?

Momo/Kamio - makeshift pair lol, against atobe/kabaji - and them two too

Sengoku/Akutsu might be interesting...

Other names I might include: not sure if they're already included...
Zaizen/Kenya
Kenya/Gin
kamio/kenya?
Mukahi/Hiyoshi
Shiraishi/Kirihara
Tachibana/Chitose

Zatono
May 18, 2010, 03:19 PM
I was thinking about Shiraishi/Akaya, but we might as well wait for the manga to debut what the Bible and Devil tennis players can do together.

Kaoz
May 18, 2010, 03:26 PM
Hmm, maybe I should give an explanation under which criteria a pair is considered as a Special Pair. First of all, the characters are not allowed to be on the same team (canon wise... another point why Ryoma/Tezuka doesn't work, why did I include them???), also the characters have to have a special relationship in form of siblings, rivals etc.

That being said, from the suggestions up until now, I'll include Momo/Kamio.

Zatono
May 18, 2010, 04:01 PM
Tezuka/Chitose - Come on, they're both Muga maniacs.
Kamio/An - Seems like Kamio wants to go out with her

I can't really think of any others that don't involve high tiers right now though.

Kaoz
May 18, 2010, 04:18 PM
Kamio/An will be considered, Tezuka/Chitose I can't really see, both of them are singles players and they don't really share that much backstory I think.

Also, high tiers are perfectly fine as well.

javimgol
May 18, 2010, 04:25 PM
Most of the pairs you have said are simply Tier Pairs, that have played one or more matches together, and they can do Formations

Special Pairs should be :

Brotherhood/family: Fujis, Ishidas, Oshitaris, Kisarazus, Chitose, Tachibanas...
Captain/subcaptain: Tezuka/Oishi and Sanada/Yuki, for example, even get an special chapter in the Finals
Specialists: Gin/Kawamura, Bunta/Jiro...
Simply Special Pairs: Atobe/Sanada, Miyuki/Tezuka, Momo/Kamio

Zatono
May 18, 2010, 04:34 PM
Then for specialist, Oni-Kintarou as extreme power players.

javimgol
May 18, 2010, 04:36 PM
Just noticed, Atobe's Ice World shouldn't be useful or shouldn't counter Tezuka Zone, no? Atobe found the secret of his spin or sth like that in the match, but was Ryoma's key to victory: no Tezuka Zone (Ryoma should have it, too!), no way to return the ball to your blind points

Sai_the_Shaman
May 18, 2010, 05:17 PM
Atobe later countered Zone with in insight later in the match. in essence zone was broken.

Bowser
May 18, 2010, 06:05 PM
KAIDOH YAGYUUU
[hr]
Momo/Sengoku? - omoshiro momoshiro
Fuji Tachibana? - you know, being friends and everything
Shishido/Oishi canon and Ootori Kikumaru pair...manga wise
Oshitari and Fuji!?! Tensai pair?
Shiraishi+Fuji, Kawamura+Gin...
Maybe...Zaizen Atobe pair for super arrogant pair?!

and finally
KAIDOH YAGYUUU
Feat: Straight or Curved? XD

Kaoz
May 18, 2010, 06:17 PM
I can accept Kaidoh/Yagyuu, but the others have a pretty vague base I think.

Bowser
May 19, 2010, 11:39 AM
They did have Oshitari and Kikumaru at one point but that was pretty bad.

What about a high schooler pair? Perhaps Akazawa/Mizuki pair?

Perhaps when you pair Momo with Kikumaru we could have a feat called Three Man Doubles or something or Fuji/Kikumaru...mehh. Is Saeki/Itsuki on the list?

Kaoz
May 19, 2010, 11:44 AM
Akuzawa and Mizuki are both St. Rudolph, so no.

As for the high schoolers, I thought about Kazuya/Oni but then again they were just shown practicing before their matches with Ryoma and Kintarou, I'm a bit undecided here.

Bowser
May 19, 2010, 11:54 AM
Jackal Kaidoh seem to be the same kind of people.
Trickster Trickster pair? Momo/Sengoku, Niou etc

What about...
KRAUSER KIRIHARA - KK pair
Hitouji with Momo or Kaidoh maybe XD
Mizuki/Renji XD data rape pair

Kaoz
May 19, 2010, 12:06 PM
Special Pairs are mostly this:

Brotherhood/family: Fujis, Ishidas, Oshitaris, Kisarazus, Chitose, Tachibanas...,

sometimes this:

Specialists: Gin/Kawamura, Bunta/Jiro...

and at rare occassions this:

Simply Special Pairs: Atobe/Sanada, Miyuki/Tezuka, Momo/Kamio

They are basically pairs that make sense canon-wise, yet don't have a support level. As thus they are not allowed to come from the same team (as then they could have paired up reguarly), also there has to be at least some background for them.

Bowser
May 19, 2010, 12:13 PM
Krauser Kirihara are specialist. They're a killing pair.

Kaoz
May 19, 2010, 12:18 PM
They only played each other ones though and the match was barely shown.
Jiro's tennis is inspired by Bunta's and Gin and Kawamura are rivals, so they actually have something besides being specialists going for them.

Zatono
May 19, 2010, 12:31 PM
Well, I don't think there are any more special pairs out there without it being a stretch, Chaos. I could be wrong though..

Kaoz
May 19, 2010, 12:50 PM
No, I think you are right, otherwise I probably would have put them up already.

I posted the list to make sure I didn't forget anything.

Zatono
May 19, 2010, 05:37 PM
Well, personally I think you've got more then enough special pairs. Any more then that and it wouldn't take much thought to get a good doubles team working with two random characters.

Kaoz
May 21, 2010, 12:35 PM
The poll to determine the last two low tier characters for season 3 is over and the Shin Prince of Tennis Fan League development team would like to thank everyone who participated, the polls final results are:

1.) Chitose Miyuki 72.73%
2.) Urayama Shiita 45.45%
3.) Horio Satoshi 36.36%
4.) Arai Masahi 27.27%
5.) Fukushi Michiru 09.09%
6.) Kuki Kiichi 0%
Ushida Tetsuo
Nishikiori Tsubasa
Aragaki Kouichi
Shiranui Tomoya

Lastly, as there where 11 people who voted but we are currently only 8 people in the league (+Sherlock which makes 9), I'd be fairly interested in who else voted in the poll.
If said person is reading this and wishes to participate in the league next season, feel free to send me a pm.
[hr]
For this round's spoiler, I'll present you the two characters you voted for low tier, enjoy:

Chitose Miyuki (1,2,1,1,5) 2
All-rounder; Lefty

-A Girl? [Tensei Feat]:
When playing Singles, all of the opponent's stats drop by 1 points each.

-Doroboo nii-chan[Feat]:
If the opponent is Tezuka, Miyuki automatically wins. (Singles only)

-Wall Practice [Feat]:
All of Miyuki's stats are boosted by 1.5 points.

Urayama Shiita (2, 2, 2, 2, 8) 2
All-rounder; Right handed

-Urayamashii de yansu! (You're Just Jealous)[Feat]:
If Shiita is but in reserves for this round, whenever a character with a lower base total surpasses a character with a higher base total by more than 5 points, The character with the lower base has his stats boosted by 1 each. This affects players on both teams.

-Rikkai Training [Feat]:
Shiita's stats are boosted by .5 points each for every Rikkai player on his team.

-Twist Shot [Effect]:
Shiita's Control and Spin are boosted by 1 each.

Zatono
June 03, 2010, 06:42 PM
Yanagi Renji (8, 10, 8, 10, 36) 30
Defensive Baseliner; Right Handed

-Master [Title Feat]:
Renji's 'Data Tennis' cannot be negated. Should 'Data Tennis' be used against him, it is negated.

Can't it still give him the point boost that it used to? Perhaps 1.5 points each instead? If I compare him to Inui, Inui is a lot better.

Sai_the_Shaman
June 03, 2010, 06:56 PM
I'm in favor of Master giving him a point boost.

Kaoz
June 04, 2010, 06:38 AM
I disagree on the point boost, I would however give him the ability to cut effects that can't be negated by 50%.

Bowser
June 04, 2010, 10:08 AM
Yanagi the ability to lower opponent - he mind rapes and his data efficiency is awesome. Point boost or opponent points cut I'd say.

Kaoz
June 04, 2010, 10:36 AM
The opponent already receives a drop in points when their technique is countered.

Zatono
June 04, 2010, 10:42 AM
Then how about a compromise Chaos? You can do the 50% on effects that can't be negated, but also give Renji one extra prediction, so he has 5 instead of 4?

Kaoz
June 04, 2010, 11:15 AM
Wouldn't a compromise rather be to give him the cut and raise the drop for a succesful negation to 1.5 instead of 1?

-Ken-
June 04, 2010, 01:31 PM
Cut on effect that can't be negate which is usually VERY powerful is more powerful than point boost hell lot of a time. There's no need to give anything else if he can cut the effect. Point boost is much less powerful. What would u want? Cutting Hoshi Hanabi in half or rather upping all your stat by 1 which = 4 or even 1.5 which =6?

It's not like Yanagi can do a thing against Kaidoh unpredictable snake/laser shot either. Kirihara power-up mode never engage Kaidoh, only aiming for Inui. However, The devil mode got crushed by Yanagi like it's nothing. I actually would just put Kaidoh at the high tier, looking from that.

Kaoz
June 04, 2010, 01:34 PM
I agree, when no one has any objections I will change it so that unnegatable abilities are cut in half.

Bowser
June 04, 2010, 01:48 PM
Kirihara power-up mode never engage Kaidoh, only aiming for Inui.
Only because Kirihara wanted to. He could've aimed at Kaidoh if he wanted to though.

-Ken-
June 04, 2010, 02:01 PM
Only because Kirihara wanted to. He could've aimed at Kaidoh if he wanted to though.

He could aim for Kaidoh, but Kaidoh was owning Renji who own him like hell in SPoT. I don't think he stand a chance against Renji from that. Unless Renji was about to go "I know you" in the next ball Kaidoh is about to hit, which I don't think is the case.

But I got to admit PoT power scale is as random as hell, meh.

javimgol
June 05, 2010, 07:23 AM
In that match, Kaidoh was stated to be invincible
http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/357/12-13/
when he uses the two lasers. Two weeks later, Tezuka defeats him in the most humiliating way. Something isn't going right

Kaoz
June 05, 2010, 08:13 AM
It's PoT, what do you expect?

Apart from that, Tezuka shouldn't have to care about which of the two shots it is, he has TZone after all.

-Ken-
June 05, 2010, 01:29 PM
TZone doesn't care about the ball your opponent use, Kaidoh just face his worst match up, that's all.

That being said, the author probably meant Kaidoh to be SUPER high tier at that match, because I didn't think he plan for the 'Shin' (It's just my opinion, if someone think he does plan for it, please don't be insult).

Once Shin is out, he decided that some character that can have pages of development is nice way of getting good number of pages in, so he 'nerf' some characters.

Kaoz
June 05, 2010, 04:28 PM
As Jav pointed out, the Synchro version for season 3 doesn't really make sense, so here is a new one:


-Synchro [Aura]:
(1) This Aura cannot be activated manually, it auto activates if the Opposing Pairs Final Total is higher than this Pair's total and is not more than 30 points higher.
(2) This Aura only activates when both players of the Pair uses it.
(3) This Pair's Support Bonus is doubled. The opponents Speed drops by 10 points each.
(4) Players in this Pair cannot have their stats dropped. If the opposing pair would use a Feat, Effect or Aura to predict either player of this pair, that ability is nullified.
(5) This Aura cannot be negated by any other ability (except Yips) nor cant it be copied.

EDIT: Forgot to add, when this version is accepted there will be no Synchro Formation anymore.

Discuss.

Bowser
June 05, 2010, 05:22 PM
Actually, maybe putting numbers instead of having one big sentence will clear the wordings up.

Kaoz
June 05, 2010, 05:28 PM
What exactly do you mean?
The current Synchro is bad because the stuff that it originally should boost don't exist anymore.

javimgol
June 06, 2010, 11:54 AM
As Jav pointed out, the Synchro version for season 3 doesn't really make sense, so here is a new one:


I hate it just after the first line. Golden Pair is stated to be able to activate Synchro WILLINGLY. It's simply non-canonical Synchro not being just sth controlled and manual. I
http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/369/08-09/
MAO it should be, in a the new league, a Quick Play or Continous
Something that shouldn't be manual is, for example,PoP.
I already sent you in a PM a version of Synchro

Kaoz
June 06, 2010, 12:06 PM
But the activation requirement is only that the opponent has a higher final total, it's nothing big.

Apart from that I explained before that some conditions have to be fulfilled in order to activate Synchro. I used the part of cannot manually activated to include an auto activation, in order to allow Oishi/Kikumaru to use their Effects.
You are right though, I think in that case this would be accrate?


-Synchro [Aura]:
(1) This Aura auto activates if the Opposing Pairs Final Total is higher than this Pair's total and is not more than 30 points higher.
(2) This Aura only activates when both players of the Pair uses it.
(3) This Pair's Support Bonus is doubled. The opponents Speed drops by 10 points each.
(4) Players in this Pair cannot have their stats dropped. If the opposing pair would use a Feat, Effect or Aura to predict either player of this pair, that ability is nullified.
(5) This Aura cannot be negated by any other ability (except Yips) nor cant it be copied.

javimgol
June 06, 2010, 12:12 PM
A new version of Synchro:


-Synchro [Continous Aura]:
1)The Support Bonus this Pair gains is doubled and cannot be negated in anyway
2)This Pairs Formation and Effects are negated and replace with Synchro Formation if they are not already using it.
3)This Pair's stats cannot be dropped.
4)This Aura cannot be negated by any other ability (except Yips, Hyper Yips, Purple Electric Aura) nor cant it be copied.
5) If the opposing pair would use a Feat, Effect or Aura (like Data Tennis or Saiki) to predict either player of this pair, that ability is nullified

-Synchro [Final Formation]
1)This Formation can only be used by a Pair that has a Tier Level of 5 or higher and is using Synchro.
2)The Opponent's Speed is dropped to 0 and their Effects and Auras (with the exception of Yips, Hyper Yips, Purple Electric Aura,Ten'imuhou and Black Aura) are negated.
3)If by some means, a pair would be able to use this formation without having Synchro, this formation is negated.


A bit different than Chaos':
- Aura and Formation are separated things, and of course, you can not choose any effect apart of Synchro. Why? While in Synchro, Golden Pair didn't anything apart of fllyinG: neither Australian Formations, Moon Volleys, Kikumaru's Steps...
- Aura doubles the Support Bonus (to give a boost that can not be copied by sth like Hyakuren, for example), and protects Golden Pair for stats dropping. Ace Pair Feat, that have all the Level 5 Pairs, avoid his effect or auras to be countered.
-Formation is a copy of Koori no Sekai (Yips was too much). It's the most similar reaction I've seen of the rivals of Golden Pair after they become Super Saiyan

Zatono
June 06, 2010, 01:09 PM
I still don't understand why Data Tennis in general can't be used on them, especially Inui's. Also, Synchro formation shouldn't negate effects or auras at all, considering that we saw Neo Scud serve working fine against Synchro, I don't mind speed dropping to 0 though. It seems like their opponents were just frozen in place so...

Kaoz
June 06, 2010, 01:15 PM
Synchro was only really shown in one chapter, so we can't really say what it prevents and what not. Data Tennis not working is a presumption of us after everyone said that it is impossible to say who will hit the ball.
Maybe Renji/Inui pair could do something against it by simply covering all possibilities in some way, dunno about that.

I am against lowering Speed to 0 as Shishido caught up to a few balls iirc, simply because of his running speed.

Bowser
June 06, 2010, 01:24 PM
If you're swinging simultaenously, theres no way you can predict the chance who would hit it. Unless you're like; Kikumaru hits it 6/10 times. Oishi hits it 4/10 times. Therefore, Kikumaru has a 60% chance of hitting it. I dont think Syncro works like that.

I also am of the belief that Syncro doesnt negate effects - that's like saying Syncro can return Tezuka Phantom/Zone. HOW?!


Numbering Solution:

-Doubles Loser [Feat]:
When playing Doubles, Echizen cannot activate any Effects or Auras and his stats as well as the stats of his partner are halved. The stat halving is negated when Ah-Un Formation is used.

We could make it
1) When playing Doubles, Echizen cannot activate any Effects or Auras.
2) His stats as well as the stats of his partner are halved.
3) The stat halving is negated when Ah-Un Formation is used.

This could get rid of the wording problems we're facing (except it would take a lot of space)

And you know when we pick, how fair would it be if say if you get a double player in the middle tier - you bugsy the partner so say: 8th person chooses Kikumaru. Then he will also get Oishi so when its his go, its skipped cause he already has Oishi. Cause lets face it, theres no point having one person with Kikumaru and the other with Oishi right? Otherwise, splitting up pairs will do both players no good right?

And it wouldn't really give you much of an advantage in picking players either.

Zatono
June 06, 2010, 01:28 PM
I am against lowering Speed to 0 as Shishido caught up to a few balls iirc, simply because of his running speed.

I thought that was because of his amazing reaction time, and not his running speed, because then someone like Kenya probably wouldn't have too much trouble returning the balls.

Kaoz
June 06, 2010, 01:40 PM
If you're swinging simultaenously, theres no way you can predict the chance who would hit it. Unless you're like; Kikumaru hits it 6/10 times. Oishi hits it 4/10 times. Therefore, Kikumaru has a 60% chance of hitting it. I dont think Syncro works like that.

I also am of the belief that Syncro doesnt negate effects - that's like saying Syncro can return Tezuka Phantom/Zone. HOW?!


Numbering Solution:


We could make it
1) When playing Doubles, Echizen cannot activate any Effects or Auras.
2) His stats as well as the stats of his partner are halved.
3) The stat halving is negated when Ah-Un Formation is used.

This could get rid of the wording problems we're facing (except it would take a lot of space)

And you know when we pick, how fair would it be if say if you get a double player in the middle tier - you bugsy the partner so say: 8th person chooses Kikumaru. Then he will also get Oishi so when its his go, its skipped cause he already has Oishi. Cause lets face it, theres no point having one person with Kikumaru and the other with Oishi right? Otherwise, splitting up pairs will do both players no good right?

And it wouldn't really give you much of an advantage in picking players either.

As for the data pair part, I thought maybe they could somehow cover the court so well that regardless where the ball is hit they can reach it but meh.

My version has no negation besides for prediction stuff.

That's what you meant with numbering, I see. I agree on it.

As for the picking, I have to say no, it would basically guarantee the first person who picks in Mid to get GP, also Oishi and Kikumaru aren't bad on their own. Furthermore I plan to have a short trading period before the season starts, so you can trade them around if you want.


I thought that was because of his amazing reaction time, and not his running speed, because then someone like Kenya probably wouldn't have too much trouble returning the balls.

Even if it's reaction time, the point of reducing Speed to 0 is just wrong as it would symbolize that the other player can't do anything.
Also I suppose Kenya could indeed return some of the shots, just like Kintarou could. I suppose that a -10 is enough as it drops most player's Speed to 0 anyway and the few who have a chance are left with 3 or 4 Speed.

Zatono
June 06, 2010, 01:54 PM
The -10 to speed sounds good Chaos, but just don't let it nullify Data Tennis. If you let Renji cut it down by 50% since it cannot be negated, and allow Inui to assign his probabilities to it, I think it'll be fine.

javimgol
June 06, 2010, 01:55 PM
Synchro doesn't make Golden Pair able to return Rai or defeating TPhantom. It's only that makes your rival so scared that he can not use it, it's pretty simple. I see it as a mix of the reaction the rival has after Koori no Sekai and Yips

And Synchro appear in TWO matches, no one. And it was pretty well explained VS Hyotei, but in the Finals we discover they are able to use it willingly, not only when they are in a pinch
If you don't want to reduce the Speed to 0, make "The Opposing Pair's Speed and Control are halved", as we have in current Formation.

Jackal, the God of Speed, the 4 lungs man, who could reach every fuc**** ball, only could make terrified faces when Golden Pair score them 5 games in a row, and was unable to return anything. But Shishido could return it.
Why? Is Shishido faster? I don't think so. The Synchro VS Hyotei was the first one. The second one was "trained", because we know they have made progressions in it, like activating it willingly.It's just like Muga in Ryoma, first natural VS Kirihara and then controlled VS Sanada

Bowser
June 06, 2010, 02:02 PM
Golden Pair: Let's discover the infinite posibilities of Doubles!
Sanada: ?
Tezuka: Hmm...-Tezuka Zone-
Golden Pair: -o_o-
Sanada: -Stands in front of Tezuka, Spams Rai, no aftereffects-
Game and Match! Tezuka, Sanada pair!

The end.

Kaoz
June 06, 2010, 02:04 PM
Tezuka wouldn't be scared by Synchro because he'd simply use TZone to hit the ball, Sanada could warp himself with Rai, he wouldn't be scared either. Jackal might be fast (though not as fast as Kenya I think?) but his mindset isn't the greatest. Maybe it could be said it works against players with base X or lower.

Apart from that, I said it was shown in one chapter, not one match (vs Rikka it was barely shown).


EDIT: why am I ninja'd that often lately...?

javimgol
June 07, 2010, 06:39 AM
Golden Pair: Let's discover the infinite posibilities of Doubles!
Sanada: ?
Tezuka: Hmm...-Tezuka Zone-
Golden Pair: -o_o-
Sanada: -Stands in front of Tezuka, Spams Rai, no aftereffects-
Game and Match! Tezuka, Sanada pair!

The end.
No proofs of that (and yes, I don't have proofs of the opposite)

Kaoz
June 07, 2010, 11:16 AM
Well, let's say it is highly likely that Tezuka could and would be able to use Tezuka Zone against Synchro and that Synchro doesn't have an answer to it.

I think if I had to choose between facing a Synchro Pair and a Rai spamming Sanada, I would take the Synchro stuff, at least you can return their shots somehow, even if it's difficult.
[hr]
Next try, this time Sai's version though he wants to confirm things first:


-Synchro [Quick Play Aura]:
1) This Aura is negated when less than two players of the Pair use it.
2) The support Bonus this Pair gain in Doubles is doubled
3) This Pair's stats cannot be dropped
4) If using this Aura, the pair is forced to use 'Synchro Formation' as their formation.
5) This Aura cannot be chained from any other Effect or Aura
6) This Aura cannot be copied or negated

-Synchro Formation [Formation]:
1) This Formation cannot be used by any pair unless they have 'Synchro'.
2) Should a pair have an ability to allow them to use any Formation, this Formation is exempt from that unless they have 'Synchro'.
3) The Opposing Pair has their Base Speed drop to 0 (i.e. Shishido still gains his Teleport Dash boost, but his base becomes 0) and any Effect that does not add a minimum of 7 points to the Opposing Pair's total is negated.


Another option would be to make Synchro a Lv 5 Aura again with auto activation like in my version. As GP is the only Pair that has archieved Synchro (at the moment, I'm sure Sp will follow sooner or later), this is probably not the best idea, just throwing it out there.

Bowser
June 07, 2010, 11:35 AM
I'd say, close all loopholes, make Syncro a golden pair thing. you could make it a final aura, when the pairs total is lower than the opponents pair, syncro activates - since both times it was shown it was match point to opponent.

So if the boost becomes 0, and then he uses Teleport Dash, he gets that boost right?

Kaoz
June 07, 2010, 11:39 AM
We do close loopholes we can find.

As for the general Synchro I just wanted to throw it out as a possibility, I wouldn't really want it as long as the manga doesn't say anything else.

To answer you question: Yes.

As for the rest, you can get such a version by combinig the ones we posted on this page I think, we just have to decide for one.

Sai_the_Shaman
June 07, 2010, 12:37 PM
I'd say, close all loopholes, make Syncro a golden pair thing. you could make it a final aura, when the pairs total is lower than the opponents pair, syncro activates - since both times it was shown it was match point to opponent.

So if the boost becomes 0, and then he uses Teleport Dash, he gets that boost right?

The second time it was shown however, they did that intentionally to give Ryoma time to prepare for Singles 1. At that point it was shown that GP could go into synchro when ever they wanted. This is why I made it a quick play aura. they can activate it at what ever point they want. I was thinking of some way to make synchro give a bigger boost depending on when it was activated. but still working that out in my head.

Zatono
June 07, 2010, 01:06 PM
I was thinking of some way to make synchro give a bigger boost depending on when it was activated. but still working that out in my head.

Here's my idea. The user can choose whether or not to manually activate Synchro, and if you decide to manually activate synchro, you get all of this.


-Synchro [Quick Play Aura]:
1) This Aura is negated when less than two players of the Pair use it.
2) The support Bonus this Pair gain in Doubles is doubled
3) This Pair's stats cannot be dropped
4) If using this Aura, the pair is forced to use 'Synchro Formation' as their formation.
5) This Aura cannot be chained from any other Effect or Aura
6) This Aura cannot be copied or negated

-Synchro Formation [Formation]:
1) This Formation cannot be used by any pair unless they have 'Synchro'.
2) Should a pair have an ability to allow them to use any Formation, this Formation is exempt from that unless they have 'Synchro'.
3) The Opposing Pair has their Base Speed drop to 0 (i.e. Shishido still gains his Teleport Dash boost, but his base becomes 0) and any Effect that does not add a minimum of 7 points to the Opposing Pair's total is negated.

However, if the user decides to let Synchro Auto Activate...then the conditions for auto activation should be a difference of at least 30 points(maybe a difference of 40, since GP isn't that great) but the support bonus will triple (maybe even quadruple) instead of double.

Also, Synchro Formation will drop their base speed to 0 as well, but all effects/auras will be negated, even if they cannot be negated.

So basically its a risk depending on whether or not you want Synchro to activate absolutely last.

javimgol
June 07, 2010, 02:12 PM
I completely disagree about an auto-activating Synchro, even with bigger benefits. That was simply the way they achieve it.
Right now, we know that Synchro can be activated when they want, just like Momo does a Jack Knife when he wants. It's exactly the same as Ryoma with Muga, first auto-activated VS Kirihara, then dominated VS Sanada (don't let the anime confuse you).
In fact, the first Synchro, the "Auto-activated", was worse, because Silver Pair were able to return a few shots. The second Synchro we saw, VS Rikkai, didn't permit their rivals to stand a chance.
I still defend my version of Synchro (it avoids Golden Pairs to use other Effects, but they cancel more Effects)


-Synchro [Quick Play Aura]:
1)The Support Bonus this Pair gains is doubled and cannot be negated in anyway.
2)This Pairs Formation and Effects are negated and replace with Synchro Formation if they are not already using it.
3)This Pair's stats cannot be dropped.
4)This Aura cannot be negated by any other ability (except Yips, Hyper Yips, Purple Electric Aura) nor cant it be copied.
5) If the opposing pair would use a Feat, Effect or Aura (like Data Tennis or Saiki) to predict either player of this pair, that ability works, but can not cancel Synchro.

-Synchro [Formation]
1)This Formation can only be used by a Pair that has a Tier Level of 5 or higher and is using Synchro.
2)The Opponent's base Speed is dropped to 0 and their Effects and Auras are negated, even if they cannot be negated; with the exception of Yips, Hyper Yips, Purple Electric Aura,Ten'imuhou, Koori no Sekai and Black Aura.
3)If by some means, a pair would be able to use this formation without having Synchro, this formation is negated.

Zatono
June 07, 2010, 04:00 PM
My way gives you a choice of auto activation or manual activation though...and I'm pretty sure the Champion Pair returned a couple shots as well.

http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/369/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/370/01/

javimgol
June 08, 2010, 02:06 PM
My way gives you a choice of auto activation or manual activation though...and I'm pretty sure the Champion Pair returned a couple shots as well.

http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/369/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/370/01/
They returned a serve...IMAO it's a bit different
Our ideas are pretty similar. It's only that I want to show that they can not use anything apart of Synchro, but they cancel more Effects.

Kaoz
June 08, 2010, 02:08 PM
In the second one, Bunta also returns a normal shot.

javimgol
June 08, 2010, 04:09 PM
In the second one, Bunta also returns a normal shot.
Didn't see it :tem

Kaoz
June 08, 2010, 04:11 PM
On the theory that Tezuka doesn't have trouble with Synchro when using Zone, and our agreement on the fact that Synchro should lower Speed, I'd like to add to Tezuka Zone that Tezuka's Speed cannot drop.

javimgol
June 09, 2010, 04:26 PM
About Synchro:
We all agree that:
-Aura boosts his Support Bonus
-Aura avoids stats dropping and being predicted
-Formation drops rival's points
-Formation cancel opponent effects

We should only discuss
-Autoactivating . I completely disagree about this.
-If they can use more Effects, Auras or Formations. I disagree ,due to manga canon, and right now, Kikumaru can use Split Step + Synchro. But one of the best points of GP is the Golden Pair Feat that doubles partner's Effects, if they won't use Effects, it's useless again.
-The stats that drops Formation. I would prefer 2.5 each, it's easier than complicating us with base or not Speed or halved or not Control and all of that
-The limit of the effects it cancels (as I said, I would make them stop everything except Koori no Sekai, PoP, Yips, Hyper Yips, Purple Electric, Black Aura)
-If they have lost the all benefit of doubled points in a decisive match (like the others Level 5 pairs), and get sth they already had (Auras and Effects can not be canceled), they deserve a similar boost. Maybe a new Golden Pair Feat (previous gives 10 points and doubles Effects): if they play in D1, the Suport Bonus is doubled (all of the matches they have played in the series, 6, were in D1),


Silver Pair need an upgrade, IMAO, in both cost and quality

Kaoz
June 09, 2010, 04:38 PM
I still don't think there should be a Synchro Formation. That small part we had in the Formation can easily go into the Aura as well, then they couldn't use any Formation while using Synchro, I don't see the problem here.

Apart from that, I think Sai's version of reducing Speed and the amount of Effects cancelled is acceptable. As it says they need to add at least 7 Speed, things like Jackknife are negated as well. Maybe unnegatable Effects could be negated when they don't boost by at least 10 or something?

Furthermore, I think it would be a possibility to let them use Effects and make Synchro auto activating in that case. Maybe you can argue like that, if you select Effects instead of Synchro, they are "forced" into Synchro at some point like in the Hyoutei match (does that make sense?), otherwise you can select Synchro manually and use it from the start. In case one it'd be a Counter Aura, in case two a Continous Aura.

Zatono
June 09, 2010, 06:30 PM
We should only discuss
-Autoactivating . I completely disagree about this.

-If they can use more Effects, Auras or Formations. I disagree ,due to manga canon, and right now, Kikumaru can use Split Step + Synchro. But one of the best points of GP is the Golden Pair Feat that doubles partner's Effects, if they won't use Effects, it's useless again.

-If they have lost the all benefit of doubled points in a decisive match (like the others Level 5 pairs), and get sth they already had (Auras and Effects can not be canceled), they deserve a similar boost. Maybe a new Golden Pair Feat (previous gives 10 points and doubles Effects): if they play in D1, the Suport Bonus is doubled (all of the matches they have played in the series, 6, were in D1)

I don't get whats so bad about auto activation if it lets you use your effects, AND you don't have to choose auto activation. Also, could you point out where Kikumaru used both his signature step and synchro? I just looked at the Synchro matches and unless I missed it, it wasn't there. Maybe I really did miss it though.

Also, I don't get your logic behind GP getting another boost in your third point. Why do they deserve a similar point boost?

Sai_the_Shaman
June 09, 2010, 10:34 PM
I've read my volume 17 over and over again (Hyoutei vs. Seigaku) and this is the revised version of Synchro I've come up with.



-Synchro [Quick Play Aura]:
1) This Aura is negated when used by only one player of the pair.
2) The Support Bonus this Pair gain in Doubles is doubled
3) The Pair using this Aura cannot use a Formation
4) This Pair's stats cannot be dropped. Any ability the Opponent uses that would attempt to drop this pair's stats drops the Opponent's stats instead.
5) Should any Opponent try to use a prediction to affect the Pair using this Aura in anyway, that ability is negated and nullified.
6) The Opposing Pair has their Base Speed drop to 0 and any Effect that does not add a minimum of 7 points to the Opposing Pair's total is negated. The Opponents cannot prevent the drop or cut the drop in any way.
7) This Aura cannot be chained from any other Effect or Aura
8) This Aura cannot be copied or negated


I decided on the reverse stats drop (point 4) because of the idea that when the opponent attempts to use his ability to drop GPs stats and they're unaffected it just kills their concentration and motivation. Kinda like how yips works. That should give Synchro the boost it needed from the previous versions.

I have another idea for doubles I'll need to flesh out with chaos. Basically I'm thinking of moving Covering and Strategy to Tier 2 and 3 respectively. For tier 4 and 5 I'm thinking of doing pair based special feats based on the pair puri list that separates Doubles into different types.

So for example, GP and Comedy are considered Synchro Pairs. GP will lose out here since they get no boost. but I'm thinking of making an auto activate version of synchro that'll activate for Comedy Pair in a decisive match.

Silver Pair was considered a Leader/Follow type. Here we can make a feat that in a decisive match that every time the leader (in this case Shishido) gets a boost, the follower (ootori) gets a boost. Or something like that.

Champion Pair is an Equal Footing Type and they can have something that boost highest stats further or something.

Inui and Renji are Mutual Trust type, they can have something for that.

the list of types is here: http://community.livejournal.com/fanbook/26149.html

Just throwing out some ideas.

Oh also I think Shouji's sharp observation drop should be innegateable.

Sherlock Holmes
June 09, 2010, 10:47 PM
Might as well make a single complaint:

Niou's illusion shouldn't be possible to be negated. Also, he should be able to copy Title Feats because...That's kind of one of the points of his illusion in the manga. The fact he has the same presence as the person he is copying. So the person feels like he is playing against that person. And Title feats are basically that feeling of pressure the person emits so...Yeah.

Also, I like that idea of basing the special pairings on the tenipuri section, and I'm for moving covering to tier 2.

Sai_the_Shaman
June 10, 2010, 12:53 AM
One more Note, Jiro is currently able to beat Bunta in Singles...That needs to be remedied since Jiro is the one who admires Bunta for his awesome volleying skills and is implied not to be as good as Bunta.

javimgol
June 10, 2010, 08:27 AM
I've read my volume 17 over and over again (Hyoutei vs. Seigaku) and this is the revised version of Synchro I've come up with.



-Synchro [Quick Play Aura]:
4) This Pair's stats cannot be dropped. Any ability the Opponent uses that would attempt to drop this pair's stats drops the Opponent's stats instead.
6) The Opposing Pair has their Base Speed drop to 0 and any Effect that does not add a minimum of 7 points to the Opposing Pair's total is negated. The Opponents cannot prevent the drop or cut the drop in any way.



4) That wouldn't affect Fuji or Kirihara, because their stats can not be reduced?
6) It will affect a 25% of the or sth like that Effects

Kaoz
June 10, 2010, 03:25 PM
-Synchro [Quick Play Aura]:
1) This Aura is negated when used by only one player of the pair.
2) The Support Bonus this Pair gain in Doubles is doubled
3) The Pair using this Aura cannot use a Formation
4) This Pair's stats cannot be dropped. Any ability the Opponent uses that would attempt to drop this pair's stats drops the Opponent's stats instead.
5) Should any Opponent try to use a prediction to affect the Pair using this Aura in anyway, that ability is negated and nullified.
6) The Opposing Pair has their Base Speed drop to 0.
7) When an opponent that had his Speed lowered by (6) activates any Effect that adds less than 7 points to that player's Speed, that Effect is negated. This Part is negated when an opponent's Speed is 7 or higher.
8) This Aura cannot be chained from any other Effect or Aura.
9) This Aura cannot be copied or negated.

This is the final version of Synchro, until the manga shows it again (or we get balance issues for some reason).

The opponent's Effects are negated when his Speed is either below 7 or he doesn't add at least 7 points to his Speed with the Effect. Furthermore, when a character has more than one Effect, the one that boosts Speed is activated first in that case.

As for the stat drop, Kirihara is the only one who's stats cannot drop, Fuji's Feat was redone for this season.


Apart from that, Covering and Strategy become Level 2 and 3 Feats, Levels 4 and 5 get Pair-specific ones as Sai suggested.

Zatono
June 10, 2010, 03:39 PM
Well...at least that Synchro looks less crazy then the original season 2 one. Being extremely specific about everything definitely helps.

So, does the picking start soon?

Kaoz
June 10, 2010, 03:43 PM
Yes, Sai and I wanna do the Lv4&5 Feats, I'll post the picking order later though and the picking itself will start on monday at the latest, when we are done before that earlier of course.

javimgol
June 10, 2010, 03:53 PM
Final text of Synchro doesn't let very clear if to avoid the cancel is necessary have 6 points of speed AND OR add 7 points of more

Kaoz
June 10, 2010, 03:59 PM
Final text of Synchro doesn't let very clear if to avoid the cancel is necessary have 7 points of speed AND OR add 7 points of more

Fix'd

and both works. If a character can add 7 or more Speed with one Effect, that Effect works normally. Alternatively, if said character already has 7 or more Speed (through Feats or Effects that added that much before) his Effects work as well.

Kaoz
July 11, 2014, 06:33 AM
Alright, I'm reviving this for stuff I have trouble deciding on (or if anyone wants to voice complaints and wasn't aware of this thread's existence, they're of course welcome to do so).

So I feel like Kirihara should be changed a bit, but I'm not quite sure in which way. I can't think of a situation in which you wouldn't want to use either Devil Mode or Sane Devil Mode, so two possible changes come to mind:

(1) Just use the Devil Mode stats as his base stats and scrap the ability entirely. Sane Devil Mode would just be a stat boost in this case.
(2) Keep Devil Mode as ability, but don't allow manual activation. Add a feat which reduces Kirihara's Mental every time he loses a point or HP and activate Devil Mode when Mental hits 0. In this scenario, Knuckle Serve and Speed Play would be buffed while Devil Mode is active.

Thoughts, anyone?

Philia
July 12, 2014, 02:01 AM
It's hard to imagine Kirihara without his devil mood.
However, making his devil mood activate only when his mental hits 0 isn't a good idea either. It should be activated after Kirihara loses a set Or 2-3 games in a row.

btw, please change Krauser a bit. He surely shouldn't be able to beat Ohmagari.

And with Niou, allow him to copy multiple characters.

-Ken-
July 12, 2014, 05:52 AM
I don't think Devil Mode appear unless the opponent provoke him through some means. I don't think it would activate against, say Shiraishi, for example.

Kaoz
July 12, 2014, 05:58 AM
It's hard to imagine Kirihara without his devil mood.
However, making his devil mood activate only when his mental hits 0 isn't a good idea either. It should be activated after Kirihara loses a set Or 2-3 games in a row.

Well, it would activate after he loses points in any case, it'd just be possible for it to activate even sooner if the opponent provoked him as well.


btw, please change Krauser a bit. He surely shouldn't be able to beat Ohmagari.

What are you talking about, that's totally canon. Yeah, will be adding a speed check or something to SC.


And with Niou, allow him to copy multiple characters.

Will very likely happen.


I don't think Devil Mode appear unless the opponent provoke him through some means. I don't think it would activate against, say Shiraishi, for example.

It activated against Yanagi and Yanagi didn't provoke him at all.

-Ken-
July 12, 2014, 07:30 AM
Ah right, I forgot about that. That is one match though, And Kirihara have a dream to crush the big three of Rikkai for a long time ever since PoT. Most of the time the activation comes from getting provoke.

Kaoz
July 12, 2014, 07:48 AM
Well, it's true that it only happened like that once, but this it said about DM in PP 6:



[22:28] <!Sai> Devil Mode: Speed and Power are further increased. This is the embodiment created by his desire to win.


So I don't think it's wrong to think he'd enter it when losing, wouldn't you agree?

-Ken-
July 12, 2014, 10:16 AM
I feel like that fit my explanation pretty well. It activate that time because he have a long dream to win against the big three of Rikkai. To be honest, the only other time we see Kirihara want to win really badly is when he fight against Fuji in Kantou, and devil mode doesn't activate back then. I feel like that's because Kirihara doesn't feel much anger at that time. I feel like the key to activating devil mode is "wanting to win+anger". Another instance that devil mode is with Kaidoh, who was getting piss that Inui was getting crush.

Hardy
July 15, 2014, 12:56 PM
Nerf Mitsuya pls :emocat

Kaoz
July 29, 2014, 02:25 AM
So after thinking about it more and looking at the responses in this thread, this is what I came up with:



-Desire for Victory [Counter Feat]:
Triggers whenever HP decreases or after losing a point. Mental permanently increases by 1. The third time Mental increases through this effect, activate Devil Mode.


This is a bit different from what we've been using in the past in that Mental increases instead of decreases, but this way it actually doesn't clash with Intense Concentration for a change. The HP part represents the provocation that has been brought up. Since not all Mental drop effects are a result of provocation, I think this is the best way to do it and he was hit in the face every single one of those times anyway.

Note that this is just a preliminary version and may change a bit in the future. For example, the HP condition might be removed depending on if there are any drops that aren't tied to winning the point.

Thanks for everyone's contributions so far.

[hr]

The next character I would like some input on is Krauser. Like I mentioned before, SC will be made weaker, but this is about something else.

In Krauser's fanbook profile it says that his Stamina and Mental are only a 2 each because he overuses his KO shots. We normally don't force the player to use certain moves, but should we do so in this case? Or, if not, should Krauser have a feat that increases those stats if he's not using SC? What about if he's playing doubles with someone like Yanagi or Shiraishi?

[hr]

@Above
I forgot to ask, but is this in relation to Fuwa and Hakamada specifically or do you have any other characters in mind that he beats but shouldn't?

Philia
August 07, 2014, 06:14 AM
The next character I would like some input on is Krauser. Like I mentioned before, SC will be made weaker, but this is about something else.

In Krauser's fanbook profile it says that his Stamina and Mental are only a 2 each because he overuses his KO shots. We normally don't force the player to use certain moves, but should we do so in this case? Or, if not, should Krauser have a feat that increases those stats if he's not using SC? What about if he's playing doubles with someone like Yanagi or Shiraishi?

Maybe, these stats should be increased by 1 in the set he is not using SC.


@Above
I forgot to ask, but is this in relation to Fuwa and Hakamada specifically or do you have any other characters in mind that he beats but shouldn't?
Who does they beat?
I had Hakamada after the draft. Couldn't use him in a single match.

Also, I think WoK is too overrated here. They were the best pair stat-wise in the league. Maybe Synchro needs to be made weaker?

Kaoz
August 07, 2014, 07:18 AM
Who does they beat?

I don't know from the top of my head either. That's why I wanted to know if Hardy had any specific match-ups in mind. I think Vanish doesn't need to become significantly stronger, but Hakamada could probably use a feat.


Also, I think WoK is too overrated here. They were the best pair stat-wise in the league. Maybe Synchro needs to be made weaker?

It'll be a bit different for sure since Sai and I figured out something new from the fanbook notes. A major change will be that Synchro will become a [Special] instead of a [Permanent], so using it will cost Stamina. That by itself should already make a difference.


Also, I had this one written down for a while now, but the latest chapters have convinced me that it's actually appropriate. So today I'd like to present Shiraishi's new feat:



-Praising [Feat]:
Partner’s Mental increases to 7.


As you can see it's simple, but also very powerful. Keep in mind that support bonuses will depend on the characters' Mental, so this ability is even more effective than you might expect.

Hardy
August 07, 2014, 09:01 AM
As far as I remember, it was just those 2 Kaoz.

Something I didn't really like about the season was that killing your opponent was the best strategy in the game by far. Some match-ups (like Duke vs fcking Tanegashima) are a bit unfair in that case. One just has to randomly place kill shots, the other one has to guess them AND guess his own stamina.

Oh, and Niou shouldn't really be able to copy everything Kimijima has... but it was fun using him that way, lol.

Kaoz
August 07, 2014, 02:09 PM
Something I didn't really like about the season was that killing your opponent was the best strategy in the game by far. Some match-ups (like Duke vs fcking Tanegashima) are a bit unfair in that case. One just has to randomly place kill shots, the other one has to guess them AND guess his own stamina.

That specific case has already been rectified. Tanegashima is able to use Mu without Stamina loss now. In more general terms, the high power shots will still be extremely good for scoring, but it will be possible to "dodge" the shot if returning it is impossible.


Oh, and Niou shouldn't really be able to copy everything Kimijima has... but it was fun using him that way, lol.

I'm honestly not quite sure how to handle Illusion best. For instance I don't think he should be able to copy moves like Daishaarin or Rai either, but I haven't decided what to do with him yet.

---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:21 PM ----------

After thinking about it a bit more, I might go with a setup that lets Niou copy Tezuka's moves as well as any Special that has a level of 3 or less, but not those with level 4 or above.

Hardy
August 07, 2014, 02:36 PM
What about feats and perms? Maybe you could level those too?

Kaoz
August 07, 2014, 02:54 PM
I don't think it makes sense to level them (maybe the Permanents, gotta see how many are left once I'm done with everything). Some more will probably be made not copyable though.

Hardy
August 07, 2014, 02:58 PM
Oh, cause I was thinking that maybe you were going to make Niou only able to copy specials (...that sentence is garbage :oh ), but apparently not, my bad lol.

ANOTHER thing... are you gonna fix that rule that Sai wanted changed before the game started? Sounds nice tbh... if you nerf Yagyuu a little while doing so.

Kaoz
August 07, 2014, 03:10 PM
ANOTHER thing... are you gonna fix that rule that Sai wanted changed before the game started? Sounds nice tbh... if you nerf Yagyuu a little while doing so.

Yes. You will be able to activate Formations as Permanents. You will still be able to use them as Specials too though if you want, in case you want to use a different Permanent with the same character (although I can't think of anyone this currently applies to) or want to switch between different Formations as the match progresses. However, they will cost Stamina when activated as Specials.

Also, Yagyuu will probably be a bit better than last season.

Hardy
August 07, 2014, 03:13 PM
A bit better? But he was already decent and now with that formation thingy and his ability to copy specials he'll kick butt ._.

Kaoz
August 07, 2014, 03:19 PM
Well, I don't feel like he's much stronger than he "should be" if at all? The only change I can imagine right now is limiting the Specials he can copy to Lv 3 and below or Lv 2 and below or something, which might not be a bad idea.

Hardy
August 07, 2014, 03:34 PM
Yeah, a limit would work. I remember, when we were drafting (before Sai picked him and remarked the rule that made him not that useful), that my original plan was making him double team everyone with Tohno, which would had been pretty broken lol.

One last thing, is it possible to give Ban anything? I know there's nothing special in him in the manga but the character looks a bit ugly this way... I dunno, something like Tank: whenever he gets hurt, somehow, he wins the point (jk :lmao ).

Kaoz
August 07, 2014, 03:42 PM
One last thing, is it possible to give Ban anything? I know there's nothing special in him in the manga but the character looks a bit ugly this way... I dunno, something like Tank: whenever he gets hurt, somehow, he wins the point (jk :lmao ).

Yes, it is. I believe his fanbook profile actually mentions an Explosion shot technique or something along those lines in the comments, so he'll get that and maybe a feat. I'm hoping that I can give something other than Synchro to Washio and Suzuki as well (the Mutsus will get a twins feat if nothing else).

-Ken-
August 07, 2014, 07:11 PM
That wonders me. Do Akiba profile suggest anything about his tech? As is he look weaker than Court 3. And we knows there are court 1 and court 2 people after that even. Or was it the result of U-17 training vs playing for the country?

Kaoz
August 15, 2014, 11:04 AM
That wonders me. Do Akiba profile suggest anything about his tech? As is he look weaker than Court 3. And we knows there are court 1 and court 2 people after that even. Or was it the result of U-17 training vs playing for the country?

Akiba's profile describes him as a strong server and smasher with good reach due to his long arms. You could argue that since being a big server is a great advantage, he's above the 2nd stringers even though his stats are weaker, however I personally believe that 3rd court and above have surpassed him though.

---------- Post added August 15, 2014 at 06:04 PM ---------- Previous post was August 08, 2014 at 08:20 AM ----------

So since we were discussing KOs and KO moves on the previous page, I tried to rework them a bit. One way to make them harder to pull off is to increase everyone's HP a bit by making it [Power + Stamina] instead of just [Power]. Furthermore I'm also planning to add fixed damage values to the respective specials, however a "problem" I encountered here is that most of the KO moves really should kill most people in one shot assuming they connect. If anyone wants to take a shot at fixed damage values, here are the relevant stats:


Krauser vs Nakagauchi
9 HP
2 Southern Cross + 1 Boosted Southern Cross -> 8 DMG

Kawamura/Kabaji vs Ban
11 HP
Kabaji no Haru + 26th Style Hadokyuu -> 0+ DMG

Date vs Kawamura
8 HP
Danji no Haru + 1-2 Danji no Natsu -> 7-8 DMG

Date vs Kabaji
8 HP
1-2 Danji no Natsu -> 6-7 DMG

Ishida vs Watanabe
12 HP
108th Style Hadokyuu -> 11- DMG

Watanabe vs Ishida
8 HP
Duke Homerun -> 8+ DMG


Here's what I'm currently thinking:


Hopping Ball: 5
Southern Cross: 6 (8 after Tenacity)
Danji no Haru: 7
Danji no Natsu: 8
108th Style of Hadokyuu: 10
Duke Homerun: 12

-Nakagauchi and Ban have feats that make them immune to HP drops of 6 or less and 7 or less respectively. Kawamura has a feat that prevents his KO three times.


So yeah, if anyone wants to give it a shot, feel free to.

Hardy
August 26, 2014, 12:03 AM
One way to make them harder to pull off is to increase everyone's HP a bit by making it [Power + Stamina] instead of just [Power]. Furthermore I'm also planning to add fixed damage values to the respective specials, however a "problem" I encountered here is that most of the KO moves really should kill most people in one shot assuming they connect.

Sounds nice to me. How is it a problem tho? Like, if Fuji eats a Hadou, I would expect him not to stand up, lol.

Do you plan on changing Date? He seemed REALLY hard to use in the last game, and with a not really big reward.

Also, I have a silly request: I was just re-reading NPoT, and I saw how Sakata made Krauser trip. We know he already tried to do this to Tezuka, but failed. Could this be turned into a feat that lowers mental before the match starts or something? No one is gonna pick him anyway, but I thought it would be a funny ability.

Kaoz
September 11, 2014, 03:17 AM
Sounds nice to me. How is it a problem tho? Like, if Fuji eats a Hadou, I would expect him not to stand up, lol.

Well, it's not a problem for me, personally. I mostly mean it won't be much different from last season where we had lots of KOs. It'll still be a good strategy.


Do you plan on changing Date? He seemed REALLY hard to use in the last game, and with a not really big reward.

He'll KO easier now I think. That aside, due to the way the point system will be changed (3 games for 3 sets -> 7 points), it'll be much easier to chain his moves together in the proper order. The power boost he will receive will also go up a little. Otherwise, I'll probably only change something if Sai translates his profile and there's anything interesting in there, but at the moment I don't see that happening.


Also, I have a silly request: I was just re-reading NPoT, and I saw how Sakata made Krauser trip. We know he already tried to do this to Tezuka, but failed. Could this be turned into a feat that lowers mental before the match starts or something? No one is gonna pick him anyway, but I thought it would be a funny ability.

That's probably doable.

[hr]

Also, since it's been a while since I last posted an ability, here is Sanada's new feat:



-Slap me! [Counter Feat]:
Triggers in Doubles when Mental is 0 for the first time. Mental permanently increases by partner's Mental and cannot decrease until the end of the match.


---------- Post added September 11, 2014 at 10:17 AM ---------- Previous post was August 26, 2014 at 08:11 AM ----------

Alright, so, about the ? stat boosts - I feel like I could probably assign values to them at this point, but the question is whether I should or not. Any opinions on this?

Hardy
September 11, 2014, 08:15 AM
Well, it's not a problem for me, personally. I mostly mean it won't be much different from last season where we had lots of KOs. It'll still be a good strategy.

Well, it is what it is then I guess, this is how SPoT works lol.


Alright, so, about the ? stat boosts - I feel like I could probably assign values to them at this point, but the question is whether I should or not. Any opinions on this?

I'm not a huge fan of them tbh, Tezuka was Jesus in the last game lol. I really don't know, if we knew more about TnK it would be way easier.

But, in any case, how big was the number you were thinking of for ¨?¨ ?

Kaoz
September 11, 2014, 08:43 AM
But, in any case, how big was the number you were thinking of for ¨?¨ ?

Depends on the exact ability, but uh... less than 10 total?

Hardy
September 11, 2014, 09:07 AM
Wasn't Duke's Homerun total bigger than that?

---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 AM ----------

Also, if Mu has no cost now, shouldn't it be a counter-feat or something like that? Or I'm missing some abilities that could take benefit from it?

Kaoz
September 11, 2014, 09:10 AM
DH was +9; might either stay this way or go down to +8.

Can you rephrase your other question, please? I'm not sure I quite understand what you're asking in the second part.

Hardy
September 11, 2014, 09:18 AM
DH was +9; might either stay this way or go down to +8.

Can you rephrase your other question, please? I'm not sure I quite understand what you're asking in the second part.

So Duke can actually damage TnK Tezuka.

Uhm... sure. You told me that Tanegashima's Mu won't cost stamina now, so I thought there's really no reason why anyone would not to use it in every single point... so it might as well be a counter-feat instead of a special move, right?

Do I need to rephrase it again? ._.

Kaoz
October 04, 2014, 05:47 AM
I see. Theoretically yes, practically it's listed as a special, so I'm generally inclined to leave it as such. This way it'll trigger stuff that activates when the opponent uses a Special.

---------- Post added September 16, 2014 at 08:17 AM ---------- Previous post was September 11, 2014 at 04:31 PM ----------

Testing a new format.

-Wonder Castle [Special - Lv 4]

Hover with your mouse over the ability to see the description. This should make things easier on the eyes. I'll also provide a pdf with all abilities in the normal format though for those who preferred that.

---------- Post added September 17, 2014 at 10:40 AM ---------- Previous post was September 16, 2014 at 08:17 AM ----------

While I'm at posting new formats, I'm considering this one as well:

Byoudouin Houou [29, SB: 3, HP: 13, AR, R]
(SPE: 2, POW: 6, STA: 7, MEN: 7, TEC: 7)

Any opinions on which one's better, this one or the one from last season?

---------- Post added October 04, 2014 at 12:47 PM ---------- Previous post was September 17, 2014 at 10:40 AM ----------

So I'm entertaining the possibility of a season 2.5 kinda thing once I'm done with the relevant characters. We would use the new rules and updated characters obviously, but only take 4 characters per team (so two Singles and one Doubles). With 32 characters the maximum number of players would be 8. Thoughts?

Philia
October 05, 2014, 09:31 AM
So I'm entertaining the possibility of a season 2.5 kinda thing once I'm done with the relevant characters. We would use the new rules and updated characters obviously, but only take 4 characters per team (so two Singles and one Doubles). With 32 characters the maximum number of players would be 8. Thoughts?
You mean maximum no. of teams would be 8 i guess?
Whatever you're thinking just go ahead with it.

Hardy
October 05, 2014, 09:39 AM
@Kaoz, I would give Byoudouin a 3 in Speed and 6 in Stamina. His stamina doesn't seem as strong as his mental, and even if he isn't fast there's no need to make him a turtle lol.

I would play a mini-season 2.5, why not.

Kaoz
October 07, 2014, 06:18 AM
@Kaoz, I would give Byoudouin a 3 in Speed and 6 in Stamina. His stamina doesn't seem as strong as his mental, and even if he isn't fast there's no need to make him a turtle lol.

He has an ability to increase his Speed, after which his stats are 6/6/7/7/7. I've thought about the Stamina thing for quite a while and ended up with this more so because of the HP value than Stamina itself actually - the way I interpret his profile description is "even if his Stamina isn't perfect, we're still rating this with the highest value because of other factors".

Hardy
October 07, 2014, 09:23 PM
I just personally think that he has extremely good power and stamina, but godlike mental and technique, so it seems kinda odd for me to see a 7 in stamina too. If it's for game balance purposes I don't mind it at all, I was just throwing my 2 cents about him.

Kaoz
October 08, 2014, 01:04 AM
I agree that as far as pure endurance goes he should only have a 6. What I was trying to say is that I opted for the 7 based on another factor, like how Kimijima, Ochi and Irie all have a 7 in Mental but not for exactly the same reasons. Speaking of Irie:



-Performance [Feat]:
If Mental exceeds opponent's Mental, opponent's Speed, Power and Technique decrease by the difference and opponent's Serves/Specials with Lv <= 5 are negated.

Hardy
October 13, 2014, 07:25 AM
I know I know, I understood your reasoning. Again, just voicing my opinion lol.

Oh so no more ¨just kidding¨ moments with Irie? :( (and Niou can copy him now even though that doesn't sound super smart?)

Kaoz
October 21, 2014, 01:44 AM
(and Niou can copy him now even though that doesn't sound super smart?)

I knew I was forgetting something.

Also, regarding Niou, since neither Tezuka nor Kikumaru are in this mini season, I've decided to give him their abilities directly and his name will change accordingly when activating them. He'll get Illusion back for the main season though.

I'm also almost finished with all the characters, so we'll probably be able to start in a few days.

---------- Post added October 14, 2014 at 05:33 PM ---------- Previous post was October 13, 2014 at 03:19 PM ----------

Done with the characters we will be using. I still need some time to update the rules and format everything, but I figured I'd share the character data already. You can either look at it online (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kmfIwpOEZGzx4PgKwK8TBiwCRToZgFwxq12u5n4BZf4/edit?usp=sharing) or download the whole thing as pdf (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11187088/SFLIIS2.5Characters.pdf). Let me know if you spot any errors.

---------- Post added October 20, 2014 at 04:56 PM ---------- Previous post was October 14, 2014 at 05:33 PM ----------

As I mentioned previously, I plan on changing the drafting process:



All characters have been assigned a point value. At the beginning of each drafting round, every player will receive Credit Points depending on the value of the most expensive, still available character. During their turn, a player can pick as many characters as they wish as long as the total value of those characters does not exceed that player's Credit Points. Unused Credit Points carry over into the next round.

The drafting order for each round is determined by the total value of every player's team with the lowest valued team going first and the highest valued one going last. In case of a tie in value, players will pick in reverse order of the previous round. The drafting order will be randomized during the first round.


Does this need more clarification or is everything clear?

---------- Post added October 21, 2014 at 08:44 AM ---------- Previous post was October 20, 2014 at 04:56 PM ----------

And the thread is up, go sign up if you want to play.

http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/2998628-Shin-Prince-of-Tennis-Fan-League-II-Season-2.5

Philia
October 27, 2014, 10:52 PM
Hey Kaoz, Kin-Chan's mental will stay at 7 if he teams up in doubles with Shiraishi right?

Kaoz
October 28, 2014, 12:56 AM
Hey Kaoz, Kin-Chan's mental will stay at 7 if he teams up in doubles with Shiraishi right?

Yes. His Super Rookie feat won't take him to 8 or 9 though.

Philia
October 30, 2014, 01:11 AM
:hugarigatou.

---------- Post added October 30, 2014 at 06:11 AM ---------- Previous post was October 28, 2014 at 06:05 AM ----------

I'm confused whether Oni has Ten'imuhou no Kiwami or not in the fan league. It's not listed in his profile. But the Demon feat cannot be activated while Ten'imuhou is activated. I guess he has it? Is there a way to activate or deactivate it for Oni's case?
And the special 'Demon' can be activated by Super Sweet Spot right?

Kaoz
November 14, 2014, 11:08 AM
I'm confused whether Oni has Ten'imuhou no Kiwami or not in the fan league. It's not listed in his profile. But the Demon feat cannot be activated while Ten'imuhou is activated. I guess he has it? Is there a way to activate or deactivate it for Oni's case?

He doesn't. I gave it to him at first, but then decided against it after all. I simply forgot to remove it from the Demon description.


And the special 'Demon' can be activated by Super Sweet Spot right?

Yes.

---------- Post added November 14, 2014 at 05:08 PM ---------- Previous post was October 30, 2014 at 07:36 AM ----------

So I figured I'd post my notes here after each round for what needs changing. Feel free to point out other things as well.


-Atobe has 8 HP instead of 9
-Byoudouin: Supreme Ruler should only decrease Mental if opponent's HP decreased through Byoudouin's Serve/Special
-Ryoma: switch clauses of Super Rookie
-Kirihara's HP is missing
-Kite's Hitman should read "If *any* opponent's..."
-Mouri: decrease Stamina by 1 or 2 when negating Lv 5 Serves/Specials
-Tooyama: switch clauses of Super Rookie

-fix Serve rule: SB should be negated when activating Serves
-add rule for when self inflicted damage resolves


In this context, I don't plan to change the current characters a whole lot, unless they appear in the manga and do something that warrants it, or they end up on this list for whatever reason.

Hardy
November 14, 2014, 11:17 AM
Don't you dare nerfing Mouri, Fan Leagues have turned him in one of my favs :pout

...ok yeah he's a bit broken, I admit it. Although, that would be a bit of a pain of a mechanic as whoever has Mouri can't avoid losing stamina (and maybe in some matchups he'll end up losing because of fainting) so... turning that feat into a tech could solve that?

Kaoz
November 14, 2014, 11:21 AM
...ok yeah he's a bit broken, I admit it. Although, that would be a bit of a pain of a mechanic as whoever has Mouri can't avoid losing stamina (and maybe in some matchups he'll end up losing because of fainting) so... turning that feat into a tech could solve that?

Well, he doesn't have any Serves or Specials, so you can't screw yourself out of activating anything this way. If he gets a new move during the WC, this would obviously have to be considered though. As for fainting, my line of thought was more that he just automatically can't negate Lv 5 moves any more when his Stamina is 0, there wouldn't be any danger of losing because of this.

FrostyMouse
November 14, 2014, 11:43 AM
Well, that is true. When he dislocated his shoulder, he was no longer capable of playing.

Kaoz
November 14, 2014, 11:45 AM
You don't need to dislocate your shoulder against every move though. >_>

FrostyMouse
November 14, 2014, 11:56 AM
You don't need to dislocate your shoulder against every move though. >_>

Of course not, silly...I was equating it to Stamina = 0, though. :inui

Hardy
November 14, 2014, 11:58 AM
Well, he doesn't have any Serves or Specials, so you can't screw yourself out of activating anything this way. If he gets a new move during the WC, this would obviously have to be considered though. As for fainting, my line of thought was more that he just automatically can't negate Lv 5 moves any more when his Stamina is 0, there wouldn't be any danger of losing because of this.

Oh, that makes perfect sense then. I'm just not a fan of outplaying when you can't do anything against it (like... you can't avoid Mouri getting screwed cause it's a feat, but the other person might abuse it). I should check if that screws him against opponents that it shouldn't but I think it's not the case.

Philia
November 14, 2014, 09:12 PM
Regarding Yukimura, I was thinking that "Child of god" should give some stat boost because he's so useless in the fan league. Something like Speed, Power, Mental, Technique increase by 1. I don't think Yukimura can beat Duke if Duke doesn't use Duke Homerun. Heck, even Mouri, Kiko would beat him easily too.

Kaoz
November 15, 2014, 01:57 AM
Regarding Yukimura, I was thinking that "Child of god" should give some stat boost because he's so useless in the fan league. Something like Speed, Power, Mental, Technique increase by 1. I don't think Yukimura can beat Duke if Duke doesn't use Duke Homerun. Heck, even Mouri, Kiko would beat him easily too.

He can't, but... should he? I don't know about everyone else, but while I can see Yukimura returning Duke Homerun, I don't think he's a better player than Duke overall. Mouri loses to Yukimura, I think for Valentine it currently depends on the serve order (Yukimura wins if he serves first and loses if he serves second).

-Ken-
November 15, 2014, 07:49 PM
I don't think Yukimura can beat Duke as well. I'm unsure about Valentine since we haven't seen him play yet. But chances are high that Valentine is stronger than Fuwa/Mouri level.

Philia
November 15, 2014, 10:32 PM
Yukimura might not be a better player than Duke. But Duke had to go full power to beat Gin. As shown here: http://www.mangahere.co/manga/new_prince_of_tennis/v08/c083/7.html
Would Yukimura need to go full power to beat Gin? So, I guess it's debatable who's better in that case.
But that's not my point. My point is that Yukimura is pretty useless in the fan leagues. Pretty much every good player has some feats & techs. But Yukimura only has "Child of god" & "Yips" and these doesn't work when opponent don't use any special tech. That's why I think he needs something. It would be fine if "Chile of god" increases his stats a bit.

Kaoz
November 16, 2014, 03:09 AM
Well, I get where you're coming from. I can think of two three possible changes from the top of my head:
1) We can give him that "Mental +1 after losing a point (max 2 times)" skill that several top players already possess, or a variation of it. This wouldn't be out of place here at all I think since we've seen him get stronger over time against Ryoma.
2) We can try to come up with some way to simulate the length of a rally. I'm not really sure about specifics, but this would probably be the closest to what we're looking for.
3) He could reduce the opponent's SB by 1 or 2 points.

Thoughts on these approaches? Or would anyone else like to weigh in on this point in general?

Philia
November 16, 2014, 09:51 AM
2nd one seems to be the best option. But It would be very complicated. First one is alright. But I think Power & Speed should increase. He already has a 6 in mental.
3rd one doesn't make much difference. But Combining 1st one with 3rd one might be alright.

-Ken-
November 16, 2014, 10:26 AM
Well, I don't know about fan league. But manga wise, I think Yukimura is on the lower end of the high tier. He's not one of the 3 strongest MS, and I'm not even sure if he can beat #6 HS right now.

Kaoz
November 16, 2014, 10:44 AM
^You could probably argue him for third, although he might not be.

Anyway, I don't have time right now but I'm going to post a list of characters that beat Yukimura tonight, then we can have a look at that and use it as basis for further discussion.

FrostyMouse
November 16, 2014, 12:01 PM
I'd say he's probably fourth, Kaoz. I can't see him beating Ryoma, Sanada, or Kintarou.

Hardy
November 16, 2014, 12:53 PM
Inb4 we have a ¨this character has TnK and this one hasn't¨ discussion again, non-TnK! Kintarou is better than Yukimura?

Yukimura doesn't even need to win points to Yip people now lol. Black Aura is way less impressive than the new Yips... and where does Atobe stand atm then btw?


I don't have time right now but I'm going to post a list of characters that beat Yukimura tonight

Don't, you'll be helping Philia :< Do it after the fan league u.u

Kaoz
November 16, 2014, 01:15 PM
Inb4 we have a ¨this character has TnK and this one hasn't¨ discussion again, non-TnK! Kintarou is better than Yukimura?

Yukimura doesn't even need to win points to Yip people now lol. Black Aura is way less impressive than the new Yips... and where does Atobe stand atm then btw?

I'm more concerned about the question whether or not TnK!Kintarou is. It really depends on how broken the evolved Yips is. I think Yukimura > Atobe, but it could be argued either way really.


Don't, you'll be helping Philia :< Do it after the fan league u.u

Wouldn't I be helping Friss? Since he has Yukimura and everything? That said, it's incredibly easy to figure out - if they can consistently reach 25.5 or more without the SB and Specials, or if they have a Lv 6 Special they win.


Byoudouin
Ryoga
Ryoma
Kaji (if he's not using Dual Strike)
Obandu
Ohmagari (if he's not using Kenmei)
Oni
Reinhardt
Tanegashima
Tokugawa
Tooyama (if he's not using Serves/Specials)
Valentine (if he's serving first)
Watanabe (if he's not using Duke Homerun)


The only ones I find arguable from that list are Kaji, Ohmagari, Tooyama and possibly Valentine (depending on his position in the US team). The only character who we're currently not using who would also win when not using his special moves is Tezuka.

Hardy
November 16, 2014, 01:25 PM
...yeah I meant Friss. As Philia was the one wanting to discuss it I got confused, lol.

That list doesn't seem bad at all for Yukimura tbh, I don't see any problems in him currently. He's as ¨useless¨ as Mouri (or well, even better actually), I don't really see the need for a change.

-Ken-
November 16, 2014, 06:55 PM
That list seem pretty fair. Kaji, Ohmagari might be more debatable. But I think those two players seem to be pretty close to Sanada/Yukimura tier wise anyways. And both of them have conditions (not activating a move) that they have to go through.

I don't think Evolved Yips would be able to win a game against PoP Oni, but that's just me. It could be enough.

Philia
November 16, 2014, 10:19 PM
That list doesn't seem bad at all for Yukimura tbh, I don't see any problems in him currently. He's as ¨useless¨ as Mouri (or well, even better actually), I don't really see the need for a change.
But Mouri is a 4 pointer. And he's pretty useful in doubles & in decisive points his ability increase.


That list looks fair. However, It's safe to say that Yukimura is better than Akutsu. But given the same condition Akutsu could beat Ohmagari, Kaji, Duke. And he might beat Tooyama & Valentine anyway. His stat can go up to 30+.
Even Atobe, Sanada can go up to 30+ and beat some of those mentioned. But Yukimura can't.

-Ken-
November 17, 2014, 04:11 AM
If the list looks fine, that sounds more like a nerf for Akutsu rather increase for Yukimura, though.

Kaoz
November 17, 2014, 04:19 AM
In Akutsu's case it's more the other way around - he can beat those people if they don't activate their moves, which is something you normally wouldn't do. He can't beat them if everyone plays normally.

Philia
November 17, 2014, 08:53 AM
In Akutsu's case it's more the other way around - he can beat those people if they don't activate their moves, which is something you normally wouldn't do. He can't beat them if everyone plays normally.
Yeah. That was a mistake while I was typing hurriedly. Akutsu can beat Duke, Kaji and others if they don't use their special moves while Akutsu does. Same with Atobe & Sanada too I think.
The way Kintarou defeated Yukimura in that game game, He'd have lost if he was facing Akutsu. That's why I was thinking that Yukimura needs a bit stat boost. Or maybe something like Dream Yips which will consume stamina like Atobe Kingdom does.

Hardy
November 17, 2014, 09:57 AM
Ok I wont discuss any further until we end this, but Yukimura is really strong (like reaaaaaally). He might be more of a 6 points dude, but who cares about that.

And no, he has no stat boost... so? Why should he have that? He's not bad becuase he doesn't have that, he's just different. We might as well play a fan league with 80 identical characters then.

Philia
November 17, 2014, 10:03 AM
I don't like the fact that Akutsu can beat someone when Yukimura can't.
And giving one a special move doesn't make him identical with others as long as his move is different from others.
That's why I think something like dream Yips would be good.

Hardy
November 17, 2014, 10:19 AM
Akutsu can win if the other person plays like shit. How is that bad?

What, in the manga, if Akutsu hits 10 bao and Ryoma doesn't even try to hit back 10 and doesn't do any move would you be surprised if Akutsu wins?

Kaoz
November 17, 2014, 10:28 AM
The point is mostly that Akutsu can beat Duke if Duke plays sub-optimally, but Yukimura can beat Duke if Duke plays optimally. That's a pretty significant difference since we have to assume some competence on the players' part. Yukimura is basically very awkward to play against because he forces you to use bad strategies which then enables your other characters to take on opponents they would normally lose to.

Philia
November 17, 2014, 10:40 PM
We haven't seen anyone winning points against Yukimura without anything special. Ryoma needed Rai & TMnK & Sanada needed BA to score against him. I don't think Duke, Kaji would take points off him with just normal rallying.



Akutsu can win if the other person plays like shit. How is that bad?

What, in the manga, if Akutsu hits 10 bao and Ryoma doesn't even try to hit back 10 and doesn't do any move would you be surprised if Akutsu wins?
But Yukimura loses if the other person plays like shit. Isn't that bad?

In the manga if Ryoma doesn't use any special move I would be surprised if he wins against Yukimura.

Kaoz
November 18, 2014, 02:36 AM
Fuwa presumably scored against Yukimura without any moves, and both Duke and Kaji are way stronger than Fuwa.

Philia
November 18, 2014, 09:06 AM
We never saw that point. Maybe he scored with Kyozou or whatever that is called. This shouldn't be much of an evidence. Since Both Ryoma & Sanada needed special moves to score against him. It's not like they could score with normal rallying.

This is becoming more of a manga discussion. Lets end it here. Do whatever you feel like with Yukimura.

-Ken-
November 18, 2014, 10:39 AM
We did saw that point. And he doesn't name the shot. It's just a normal ball. Unless we're willing to name every point the character score, that's a win by normal rally.

Hardy
November 18, 2014, 11:27 AM
But Yukimura loses if the other person plays like shit. Isn't that bad?

He loses if a superior player that rallies better than him doesn't do a special move... no I don't see it being something bad lol.

That being said, his character might be a bit outdated (cause well, the Yips in the game are closer to the ones he had at nationals), but we don't even know what the Dream Yips do so... :/

Also, as Kaoz pointed out, Yuki is a pretty interesting character in the game as it is now, which could be seen as his biggest strength.

Kaoz
November 18, 2014, 02:04 PM
I think Dream Yips just seals stuff like the opponent activating TnK/KnA by accident, it doesn't seem too relevant for our purposes. Anyway, updated list for stuff that will be fixed based on R2 match observations.


-Atobe has 8 HP instead of 9
-Byoudouin: Supreme Ruler should only decrease Mental if opponent's HP decreased through Byoudouin's Serve/Special
-Ryoma: switch clauses of Super Rookie
-Kirihara's HP is missing
-Kite's Hitman should read "If *any* opponent's..."
-Mouri: decrease Stamina by 1 or 2 when negating Lv 5 Serves/Specials
-Ochi: Mental Assassin should only decrease Speed/Power/Technique if Mental decrease was successful
-Sanada: Should In be unnegatable?
-Tooyama: switch clauses of Super Rookie
-Yukimura: Child of God should negate Serves as well

-fix Serve rule: SB should be negated when activating Serves
-add rule for when self inflicted damage resolves

Philia
November 18, 2014, 10:00 PM
We did saw that point. And he doesn't name the shot. It's just a normal ball. Unless we're willing to name every point the character score, that's a win by normal rally.
Did he? My memory isn't working it seems. Did he win it with Mirror or without it? Or did Yukimura allowed him to score so he could get a feeling that he was winning to get the dream Yips working?


He loses if a superior player that rallies better than him doesn't do a special move... no I don't see it being something bad lol.

That being said, his character might be a bit outdated (cause well, the Yips in the game are closer to the ones he had at nationals), but we don't even know what the Dream Yips do so... :/

Also, as Kaoz pointed out, Yuki is a pretty interesting character in the game as it is now, which could be seen as his biggest strength.
WTH! What happens to "Akutsu beats Duke if Duke plays like shit" argument then? Yukimura loses when a superior player rallies better and Akutsu wins when same thing happens? How many times I need to say this?

-Ken-
November 19, 2014, 12:48 AM
Did he? My memory isn't working it seems. Did he win it with Mirror or without it? Or did Yukimura allowed him to score so he could get a feeling that he was winning to get the dream Yips working?

Yes, he did. He do it before Yips kick in. He do WITHOUT the mirror eyes. I link to that page 10 billions times already so I wouldn't do it again. But you can look on older post on the forum if you want to see it.

Yukimura might allow him to score. But nothing in the manga suggests that. Can I say Shuuji allow Sanada to score with double thingy too?

But we don't know the dream yips condition yet. If we are to assume dream yips condition we might as well just assume every other condition that's not mention. For example, Byoudonin is shown to activate Pirates when he's losing on match point. Is that the condition? If the condition is not mention, we can't assume that.


WTH! What happens to "Akutsu beats Duke if Duke plays like shit" argument then? Yukimura loses when a superior player rallies better and Akutsu wins when same thing happens? How many times I need to say this?

Akutsu doesn't win when his opp doesn't play like shit. If his opp is actually better.

Kaoz
November 19, 2014, 04:53 AM
Feel free to continue the current discussion if you wish, but I'm interested in hearing opinions on a different topic as well:

I'd like to know how you guys feel about the Super Sweet Spot version this season, specifically it reducing the Stamina cost for all Serves and Specials to 0. I think it should have an effect like this since it's part of the definition of the Super Sweet Spot, but I also feel like completely nullifying the cost might be a bit too much? It makes the top player battles a bit dull since the same point generally repeats over and over. So I was thinking maybe cutting the Stamina cost in half would be a better option than outright negating it.

Thoughts?

Hardy
November 19, 2014, 06:54 PM
WTH! What happens to "Akutsu beats Duke if Duke plays like shit" argument then? Yukimura loses when a superior player rallies better and Akutsu wins when same thing happens? How many times I need to say this?

Mmm yes just now I see the flaw in my argument. I always end up having double standards for some reason.

So, in this game, Akutsu using all his moves can beat a Duke that does none? I agree that's prolly wrong, Akutsu needs to get nerfed :3

---------- Post added at 08:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------


Feel free to continue the current discussion if you wish, but I'm interested in hearing opinions on a different topic as well:

I'd like to know how you guys feel about the Super Sweet Spot version this season, specifically it reducing the Stamina cost for all Serves and Specials to 0. I think it should have an effect like this since it's part of the definition of the Super Sweet Spot, but I also feel like completely nullifying the cost might be a bit too much? It makes the top player battles a bit dull since the same point generally repeats over and over. So I was thinking maybe cutting the Stamina cost in half would be a better option than outright negating it.

Thoughts?

I see it pretty unfair if it's an ability that lets you do a tech for absolutely no cost, and there's really no point in not using it. I agree that something has to change about it.


I think it should have an effect like this since it's part of the definition of the Super Sweet Spot

...it really is?

Kaoz
November 19, 2014, 07:00 PM
Kind of - hitting with the super sweet spot basically means that you hit the best shot with the least amount of effort.

Philia
November 20, 2014, 05:06 AM
Something like, specials<=lv-5 can be activated by SSS.
Although Duke & Kaji would be the winner here. And Byodouin has no special below lv-5. So it wouldn't be completely fair.
btw I think every special lv<=5 should decrease stamina by 2.

-Ken-
November 20, 2014, 07:07 AM
Kind of - hitting with the super sweet spot basically means that you hit the best shot with the least amount of effort.

I can agree with the best shot. But I'm not so sure that it's a least amount of effect. If anything, it seem to takes more efforts than normal. Rather than you know, just hitting the ball.

Kaoz
November 20, 2014, 07:36 AM
I can actually say this with absolute confidence since it was explained in the extra pages of chapter 112:



Sai: there's actually not much info on the SSS
Sai: other than this is what allows you to hit the glowing shot
Sai: and that the super sweet spot take the 3 definitions of sweet spot and combines them into a single point
Sai: 1) The spot in which the speed of the hit ball reaches its peak
2) The spot in which the racket has the least vibration
3) The spot where the impact on the arm is the least
Sai: So basically those 3 definitions of different kinds of sweet spots
Sai: where as the super sweet spot is the point on the racket where all three hold true
Sai: and utilizing this helps you to hit the glowing shot
Sai: it allows you to maximize your power with minimaleffort

Seakay
November 20, 2014, 08:01 AM
Regarding SSS, I think the first effect of activating another ability for free is too good. Using a serve/special each point without stamina loss is a huge boon to those players able to do so. But maybe they're supposed to be on a higher tier than others though?

I think SSS reducing the stamina cost (to .5?) of a subsequent ability is a good idea, or an alternative might be to keep the cost negation but only if an opponent uses an ability that point as well. Overall, I think a change to SSS should have the actual player plan out their abilities over a match instead of just repeating the same move seven times.

On a related note, has anyone found the second mode of SSS too narrow in comparison to the first? I'm not sure copying a conditional Extra is equal to just using another ability.

-Ken-
November 20, 2014, 08:22 AM
Hmm , interesting. Doesn't make sense to me as to why it'll be easier, as it just look harder to pull off in theory. But real life logic doesn't apply in this world, I suppose.

Kaoz
November 20, 2014, 10:18 AM
Hmm , interesting. Doesn't make sense to me as to why it'll be easier, as it just look harder to pull off in theory. But real life logic doesn't apply in this world, I suppose.

Not easier, just more efficient. Actually hitting the ball in the right spot and everything is incredibly difficult, but once you do manage to do it, that's the effect.

---------- Post added at 04:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 PM ----------


On a related note, has anyone found the second mode of SSS too narrow in comparison to the first? I'm not sure copying a conditional Extra is equal to just using another ability.

I think a big factor in this observation is that characters tend to be immune to their own moves' ACE effects, so there's not much point in copying the Extra even? Otherwise it'd let you get access to ACE effects you wouldn't normally have access to, which isn't bad.

If memory serves it copied the Data effect too at some point in development, but I got rid of that because, logically, in order to gain the effect you need to be able to return the original shot first. Might be possible to put something like that back in though, would have to think about it.

---------- Post added at 04:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------


btw I think every special lv<=5 should decrease stamina by 2.

Did you mean every Special with a Lv of 5 or greater, rather than 5 or smaller? I don't really see the logic in the latter, plus it would mean Fuji and co. would only be able to use one special move per match.

Philia
November 21, 2014, 02:34 AM
Did you mean every Special with a Lv of 5 or greater, rather than 5 or smaller? I don't really see the logic in the latter, plus it would mean Fuji and co. would only be able to use one special move per match.
I really gotta be careful while typing. I mean Special with a lv of 5 or greater.
Like Pirate, Glowing shot, Samurai, Demon, Luna etc.
Also The specials with a lv of 6 or greater shouldn't be allowed to use with SSS.

Kaoz
November 23, 2014, 10:00 AM
Updated list:


-Atobe has 8 HP instead of 9
-Byoudouin: Supreme Ruler should only decrease Mental if opponent's HP decreased through Byoudouin's Serve/Special
-Ryoma: switch clauses of Super Rookie
-Fuji: Have Prodigy increase Speed instead of Technique
-Kirihara's HP is missing
-Kite's Hitman should read "If *any* opponent's..."
-Mouri: decrease Stamina by 1 or 2 when negating Lv 5 Serves/Specials
-Niou: Limit Trickster of the Court to 2 or 3 activations
-Ochi: Mental Assassin should only decrease Speed/Power/Technique if Mental decrease was successful; should only activate on 6th and 7th point
-Sanada: Should In be unnegatable?
-Tokugawa: Limit Black Hole to 2 activations per match?
-Tooyama: switch clauses of Super Rookie
-Yukimura: Child of God should negate Serves as well

-fix Serve rule: SB should be negated when activating Serves
-add rule for when self inflicted damage resolves


I'm considering another one of these mini seasons after the current one with a different set of characters since it seems more useful for spotting problems.

-Ken-
November 23, 2014, 10:09 AM
Sanada: Don't see a reason why it cannot be negate.
Tokugawa: Depends on the kind of match. If it's tie breaker or 1 set match, then no.
Yukimura: I thought this is fix a long while back XD.

Kaoz
December 06, 2014, 11:09 AM
Updated list:

-Atobe has 8 HP instead of 9
-Atobe: add Atobe Kingdom as [Lv 4; +5; Negates Lv <= 4]
-Byoudouin: Supreme Ruler should only decrease Mental if opponent's HP decreased through Byoudouin's Serve/Special
-Ryoma: switch clauses of Super Rookie
-Ryoma: Samurai should increase Technique by 1 instead of by 3
-Fuji: Have Prodigy increase Speed instead of Technique
-Kirihara's HP is missing
-Kite's Hitman should read "If *any* opponent's..."
-Mouri: decrease Stamina by 1 or 2 when negating Lv 5 Serves/Specials
-Niou: Limit Trickster of the Court to 2 or 3 activations
-Ochi: Mental Assassin should only decrease Speed/Power/Technique if Mental decrease was successful; should only activate on 6th and 7th point
-Ohmagari: Elitist should read "If base total exceeds *all* opponents' base totals [...]"
-Sanada: Should In be unnegatable?
-Tokugawa: Limit Black Hole to 2 activations per match?
-Tooyama: switch clauses of Super Rookie
-Yukimura: Child of God should negate Serves as well

-fix Serve rule: SB should be negated when activating Serves
-add rule for when self inflicted damage resolves


Sanada: Don't see a reason why it cannot be negate.

Enlighten me then, please, since I have a hard time thinking of something that should be able to negate it.

FrostyMouse
December 06, 2014, 11:59 AM
Enlighten me then, please, since I have a hard time thinking of something that should be able to negate it.

The Mental Assassin might be able to in an in-universe match, but that doesn't negate things in the SFL, so it's a moot point.

-Ken-
December 06, 2014, 09:58 PM
The Mental Assassin might be able to an in-universe match, but that doesn't negate things in the SFL, so it's a moot point.

This. Mental Assassin should be able to send Sanada into disarray enough. Also, the "signal" should depends on Sanada mental state. In his match Shuuji where he is piss off, I don't see anything he did that comes off as unpredictable at all.

FrostyMouse
December 06, 2014, 11:15 PM
This. Mental Assassin should be able to send Sanada into disarray enough. Also, the "signal" should depends on Sanada mental state. In his match Shuuji where he is piss off, I don't see anything he did that comes off as unpredictable at all.

Well, In never said that it made Sanada unpredictable or anything, simply that it nullified prediction abilities. Shuuji doesn't use prediction abilities, he just uses Mu and his natural reflexes.

In terms of The Mental Assassin, Ochi doesn't actually use any prediction abilities, so it wouldn't really matter. Now, if you were using Ochi/Renji or Ochi/Mouri in doubles, it would matter from a negation standpoint; however, iirc, neither of them can negate his abilities as it is because of their level, so it's still a moot point.

Kaoz
December 19, 2014, 05:03 PM
Well, In's "slogan" is "Unpredictable like the shadows.", so it is meant to make him more difficult to predict. That said, due to the way prediction abilities worked (and will probably still work in the future), i.e. comparing the user's and opponent's Mental stats, The Mental Assassin and similar abilities still work against In even if they don't outright negate it.

---------- Post added at 09:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 AM ----------

Updated list:


-Atobe has 8 HP instead of 9
-Atobe: add Atobe Kingdom as [Lv 4; +5; Negates Lv <= 4]
-Byoudouin: Supreme Ruler should only decrease Mental if opponent's HP decreased through Byoudouin's Serve/Special
-Ryoma: switch clauses of Super Rookie
-Ryoma: Samurai should increase Technique by 1 instead of by 3
-Fuji: Have Prodigy increase Speed instead of Technique
-Ishida: change Hadokyuu negation threshold to "higher than 3"
-Kimijima: let Negotiation change Intellitennis negation instead (compare Mouri)
-Kirihara's HP is missing
-Kite's Hitman should read "If *any* opponent's..."
-Mouri: decrease Stamina by 1 or 2 when negating Lv 5 Serves/Specials
-Niou: Limit Trickster of the Court to 2 or 3 activations
-Ochi: Mental Assassin should only decrease Speed/Power/Technique if Mental decrease was successful; should only activate on 6th and 7th point
-Ohmagari: Elitist should read "If base total exceeds *all* opponents' base totals [...]"
-Sanada: Should In be unnegatable?
-Tohno: Improve Execution's ACE when used consecutively?
-Tokugawa: Limit Black Hole to 2 activations per match?
-Tooyama: switch clauses of Super Rookie
-Watanabe's SB should be 3 instead of 2
-Yukimura: Child of God should negate Serves as well
-Yukimura: change Yips to static decrease of 1-2 Mental per point, plus 1 additional Mental for each negated Serve/Special

-fix Serve rule: SB should be negated when activating Serves
-add rule for when self inflicted damage resolves
-add "Decisive Point" explanation to the rules


[hr]

Looking at the second mini season, I'm planning to include the following characters:


Fuwa
Hakamada
Yuuma
Yuuho
Mitsuya
Taira
Hara
Akiba
Migihashi
Miyako
Nakagauchi
Matsudaira
Washio
Suzuki
Yamato

Tachibana
Chitose
Yanagi
Inui
Kenya
Yuushi
Sengoku
Hirakoba
Shishido
Hiyoshi
Yagyuu
Akutagawa
Kaidou
Momoshiro
Kikumaru
Kawamura
Krauser


In this context, adding up the characters of both mini seasons and the top players that I want to add in the main season (Tezuka, Volk, QP, Camus, Amadeus) we'll be at almost 70 characters. I'm going to add a few more characters for sure, namely Kabaji and those that have a high support level with already included characters. However, unless requested I probably won't add all the low tier characters back in since they won't get picked anyway.

So if you want any of the following to return, let me know in advance (so within the next six months I guess >_>):


Amane
Kurobane
Konjiki
Hitouji
Zaizen
Chinen
Kai
Tanishi
Kamio
Ibu
Mukahi
Minami
Higashikata
Jackal
Mizuki
Yuuta
Sakata
Kadowaki


---------- Post added December 14, 2014 at 09:11 PM ---------- Previous post was December 07, 2014 at 09:40 PM ----------


I think Execution is rather underwhelming compared to the last game's version. There's a higher chance of you losing the match because of it than the other way around, lol.

I agree with this, but I think the potential drawback isn't that bad because not that many people have 6+ Technique. Rather it's that his ACE was too much designed with specific doubles partners in mind, so I'll probably make it stronger with continuous use (emulating him using stronger Executions).

Also, updated change list:

-Atobe has 8 HP instead of 9
-Atobe: add Atobe Kingdom as [Lv 4; +5; Negates Lv <= 4]
-Ban: change Human Shield to prevent any damage done to the partner
-Byoudouin: Supreme Ruler should only decrease Mental if opponent's HP decreased through Byoudouin's Serve/Special
-Ryoma: switch clauses of Super Rookie
-Ryoma: Samurai should increase Technique by 1 instead of by 3
-Fuji: Have Prodigy increase Speed instead of Technique
-Ishida: change Hadokyuu negation threshold to "higher than 3"
-Kimijima: let Negotiation change Intellitennis negation instead (compare Mouri)
-Kirihara's HP is missing
-Kite's Hitman should read "If *any* opponent's..."
-Mouri: decrease Stamina by 1 or 2 when negating Lv 5 Serves/Specials
-Niou: Limit Trickster of the Court to 2 or 3 activations
-Ochi: Mental Assassin should only decrease Speed/Power/Technique if Mental decrease was successful; should only activate on 6th and 7th point
-Ohmagari: Elitist should read "If base total exceeds *all* opponents' base totals [...]"
-Sanada: Should In be unnegatable?
-Sanada: lower KnA thresholds by 2 each
-Tohno: Improve Execution's ACE when used consecutively?
-Tokugawa: Limit Black Hole to 2 activations per match?
-Tooyama: switch clauses of Super Rookie
-Watanabe's SB should be 3 instead of 2
-Yukimura: Child of God should negate Serves as well
-Yukimura: change Yips to static decrease of 1-2 Mental per point, plus 1 additional Mental for each negated Serve/Special

-fix Serve rule: SB should be negated when activating Serves
--Serves: only need to ACE one opponent in doubles to be effective?
-add rule for when self inflicted damage resolves
-add "Decisive Point" explanation to the rules


---------- Post added December 19, 2014 at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was December 14, 2014 at 09:11 PM ----------

Everyone, throw out some ideas for Mental Assassin. I'm not at all satisfied with the current version, but have a hard time coming up with good alternatives.

Hardy
December 19, 2014, 05:14 PM
What do you want to change about it?

Kaoz
December 19, 2014, 05:16 PM
Pretty much everything besides the Mental drop. Looking back, he used it against Atobe at the end of the first set, which is much sooner than 5th or 6th point here. I was considering something like "After winning a point, opponent's Mental decreases by 1 during the next point." and then something else, but so far I haven't had any ideas I'm actually satisfied with.

Hardy
December 19, 2014, 05:30 PM
Maybe a pretty big stat drop that lasts until the opponent wins a point?

Kaoz
December 19, 2014, 05:38 PM
I was considering that one, but then should the drop be set, should it become bigger as time passes etc. Another possibility I thought of was to let him negate Specials if the Special's level was above the user's Mental or something.

Hardy
December 19, 2014, 05:59 PM
You could set an amount, and say that mental keeps decreasing until the player manages to win a point

Kaoz
December 20, 2014, 01:27 AM
Yeah, that would be possible. The next question is if that's broken, or rather whether or not it would result in a snowball effect where Ochi only needs to win one point and then just dominates the rest of the match with MA.

FrostyMouse
December 20, 2014, 01:50 AM
Yeah, that would be possible. The next question is if that's broken, or rather whether or not it would result in a snowball effect where Ochi only needs to win one point and then just dominates the rest of the match with MA.

I think that it would, potentially, especially in doubles.

Philia
December 20, 2014, 07:26 AM
Everyone, throw out some ideas for Mental Assassin. I'm not at all satisfied with the current version, but have a hard time coming up with good alternatives.
Here's my idea:
After losing a set/2-3 points opponent's mental decreases by 2. If opponents mental is <=5, opponent's serve with lv<=4/5 is negated.
IMO, Mental assassin should activate after losing points like it happened in the last season. Although decreasing mental by 4 was too much.

-Ken-
December 20, 2014, 09:46 AM
Mental assassin activate when pop is on match point. Mental decrease by ___?

Kaoz
December 20, 2014, 10:51 AM
TnK prevents (almost all) Mental drops from occurring.

-Ken-
December 20, 2014, 11:02 AM
I have not seen any TnK players feel pressure or stress during their TnK, so that looks fine to me if mental assassin doesn't affect tnk.

Kaoz
December 22, 2014, 07:22 AM
Thanks for all the input, everyone. I ended up with this version:

-Mental Assassin [Feat]:
Cannot be copied. Mental cannot decrease. If an opponent's Mental is less than 6, that opponent's Technique decreases by the difference and their Serves/Specials with Lv <= [that opponent's Technique] are negated. Every time a Serve/Special is negated this way, that opponent's Mental permanently decreases by 1.

The reasoning is that while it's a mental attack, it really affects the opponent's accuracy as seen when Atobe missed all those easy shots. Furthermore, it seems logical that players with higher Mental get affected less by this, e.g. Byoudouin wouldn't be phased by his opponent staying calm under pressure. The last part that actually decreases Mental represents someone pressuring themselves as they are unable to perform normally.

---------- Post added December 22, 2014 at 01:22 PM ---------- Previous post was December 21, 2014 at 10:55 PM ----------

I've spent the past few days editing the characters we've used this season, and we will most likely use these versions for the next full season (unless characters need to be updated as a result of new data from the manga).

You can find the updated characters here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Xattt0M_ytVABN8s7cFfgpTUXjNB__X67GO0ivPbHL8/edit?usp=sharing).

I've implemented almost all changes that were listed on the change list. In addition I've added abilities to a few characters where I felt it was necessary. The wording of all abilities has (hopefully) been improved as well.

In addition to the general changes, I would like to bring three points to your attention:

Super Sweet Spot has been removed as a separate ability. Variations of the effects of the first part have been added to some abilities directly, the second part has been removed entirely.
There are now two versions of Ryoma. The way this is going to work is that whoever picks Ryoma chooses which of the two version they want to use, the other version cannot be used by anyone. I would have done the same for Oni, but from what I can tell there are no benefits to using a TnK build over the Demon build.
Serves and Specials have slightly different ACE effects in Doubles, namely a Serve only needs to be effective against one opponent whereas a Special needs to be effective against both. In return, Serves can only be used during two points of the match (1&5, 2&6, 3&7 or 4&7).

You will also notice that Reinhardt and Valentine aren't included, this is because we don't have manga data on them yet. They will be added back in as they are now (except that Luna will become a bit less effective) if we don't get any information on them in time.
Obandu however has been updated with information from chapter 134 (I should probably note in this context that Meteor Dunk is an ability I added myself that wasn't shown in any way, shape or form, just the feats are based on the chapter).

Feel free to comment on anything that catches your attention.

Seakay
December 22, 2014, 10:23 AM
I think that removing SSS as it is now is probably the best course of action. It led to many repetitive points between the players capable of using it. All those players should have some more variety from planning out usage of their serves/specials.

Having a choice of Ryomas is interesting. Demon Oni is gosh darn strong though, so I don't know what an equal but different build could really do. Maybe Demon Oni could focus on being individually strong, while a 'Gatekeeper of Hell' build could somehow improve your team's effectiveness. The latter is a big part of his character, shown by him helping the 5th court and mentoring Tokugawa.

I like the differentiation between Serves and Specials. For Doubles line-ups in the future then, it might be easier for pairs to be split into Character A & Character B. Character A serves first (1&5 or 2&6) and Character B serves second (3&7 or 4&7). So if there was another half season, a line up would like:

Singles 2
Doubles 1A
Doubles 1B
Singles 1

Another point I'd like to bring up is that Formations were underutilized this season. I know that we were only using at most half of the full roster and many of the characters were primarily Singles players, so other characters may help solve this problem. Were there any thoughts on having Basic Formations that could be used by a Doubles pair provided they met the requirements like playstyles or certain stats. Some past Leagues did this I think, so maybe this was already discussed?

I could totally see Obandu's Meteor Dunk being him smashing the ball after one of his ridiculous jumps. An apt name. :)

Kaoz
January 04, 2015, 04:55 AM
Two mistakes have been brought to my attention, which will be corrected shortly. Imetsu Mu's Technique boost will be removed, and the "<=" sign in Mental Assassin is actually supposed to be a ">".


Having a choice of Ryomas is interesting. Demon Oni is gosh darn strong though, so I don't know what an equal but different build could really do. Maybe Demon Oni could focus on being individually strong, while a 'Gatekeeper of Hell' build could somehow improve your team's effectiveness. The latter is a big part of his character, shown by him helping the 5th court and mentoring Tokugawa.

Something like this might be possible. I'll consider it at least.


Were there any thoughts on having Basic Formations that could be used by a Doubles pair provided they met the requirements like playstyles or certain stats. Some past Leagues did this I think, so maybe this was already discussed?

As you said, we had those kind of formations in the past. I'm not a particularly big fan of them personally because I feel that they take away from the unique formations though. A few more characters will have Formations in the next batch of characters though, so I hope it won't be too much of a problem for the people that like them.

---------- Post added January 04, 2015 at 10:55 AM ---------- Previous post was December 22, 2014 at 07:53 PM ----------

If you haven't read the chapter 136 spoilers yet, do that before reading the rest of this post.


Ok, so, Nakagauchi's stats. Should they be raised or stay the same? If the former, by how much? Some suggestions:

SPE: 3, POW: 4, STA: 5, MEN: 3, TEC: 6
SPE: 3, POW: 4, STA: 6, MEN: 3, TEC: 5

Both of these would bring him to 21 total. I think if we raise his stats he should have a 6 somewhere because the players around his new position generally do.

SPE: 3, POW: 5, STA: 5, MEN: 4, TEC: 5

Sai's suggestion. Power increased by 1 and otherwise giving him the higher stat when comparing Ban's and his own.

SPE: 3, POW: 5, STA: 6, MEN: 4, TEC: 5

Combination of both of the above. Could be argued for on the basis that Date's total is 23 and doubles partners usually have matching totals (going with the assumption that Nakagauchi replaced Ban which is incredibly likely).


Give me opinions.

The following posts don't need spoiler tags.

Hardy
January 04, 2015, 08:38 AM
Well, I think he should get a stat boost to be at the same level as Ban (or something like 21.5/22).

Having his past reference as 2.5 4 5 3 5, I'd say he should go to 3 5 6 3 5 max. A power boost to fit his role as Date's partner, a small speed boost cause 2.5 is a joke, and a stamina boost cause there isn't a player with great stamina other than Ohmagari in the 1st String, so maybe that's why Nakagauchi got picked.

Kaoz
January 10, 2015, 11:05 AM
I'll most likely settle on the 3/4/6/3/5 spread at this point. I could be convinced to give him an extra point in Power, but at the moment it doesn't look quite right to me.

[hr]

Moving on to a different point of discussion, I want to talk a bit about TnK. I don't remember if this was posted in the spoiler/chapter thread, but in chapter 135 in the practice match, after Tezuka starts using TnK, Volk says that Tezuka gets too easily discouraged if his attacks fail - this sounds a lot closer to Tezuka's standard 5 Mental to me than the boosted 7 he would currently reach through TnK.

So I'm wondering if TnK is really just a (fairly significant) boost to Speed and Power which would also be closer to the explanation we got at the end of the original, that it's like an evolved form of the moveable Hyakuren. I'm currently tempted to just give it a static boost of Speed +2, Power +2, SB +1.

FrostyMouse
January 10, 2015, 11:51 AM
I'll most likely settle on the 3/4/6/3/5 spread at this point. I could be convinced to give him an extra point in Power, but at the moment it doesn't look quite right to me.

[hr]

Moving on to a different point of discussion, I want to talk a bit about TnK. I don't remember if this was posted in the spoiler/chapter thread, but in chapter 135 in the practice match, after Tezuka starts using TnK, Volk says that Tezuka gets too easily discouraged if his attacks fail - this sounds a lot closer to Tezuka's standard 5 Mental to me than the boosted 7 he would currently reach through TnK.

So I'm wondering if TnK is really just a (fairly significant) boost to Speed and Power which would also be closer to the explanation we got at the end of the original, that it's like an evolved form of the moveable Hyakuren. I'm currently tempted to just give it a static boost of Speed +2, Power +2, SB +1.

That's effectively weaker than Glowing Shot, though. Maybe you could make the bonus slightly larger. Like add a point of technique or stamina.

Kaoz
January 10, 2015, 12:06 PM
TnK was weaker than GS last season too, so I don't think that's a real argument.

FrostyMouse
January 10, 2015, 12:25 PM
TnK was weaker than GS last season too, so I don't think that's a real argument.

Yeah, but it was a feat at that time, so you could activate something else as well (admittedly, given that Kintarou's techs were low level, they could easily be negated, if you negated, although the serve could be quite effective). Now that you're making TnK a special, you don't get a second tech, unless you're going back to our old rules where you got a second tech when you used TnK.

Kaoz
January 10, 2015, 12:28 PM
unless you're going back to our old rules where you got a second tech when you used TnK.

Yeah, this. I said it effectively won't really change anything.

FrostyMouse
January 10, 2015, 12:30 PM
Yeah, this. I said it effectively won't really change anything.

Then we're all good, because that fixes the issue.

Kaoz
March 06, 2015, 12:20 PM
Would like some feedback on the match format. Since Konomi has introduced a new format with the Pre-WC, do you guys want to try something like that or stick to the traditional one?

FrostyMouse
March 06, 2015, 02:29 PM
Would like some feedback on the match format. Since Konomi has introduced a new format with the Pre-WC, do you guys want to try something like that or stick to the traditional one?

For 2.75, you mean, or whatever this current break period season is called?

Kaoz
March 06, 2015, 02:32 PM
More like in general, but yeah, for that one too.

FrostyMouse
March 06, 2015, 02:35 PM
More like in general, but yeah, for that one too.

Well, the regular WC doesn't appear to be doing the same thing, and this is just a special event. We could try it out for the mini-season, certainly, but in general, it seems like it would be funky, as you'd have to draft HSers and MSers and not just who fit your team or something. For example, you couldn't use a canon pair, such as Ochi/Mouri, under that system. However, that might not be such a bad thing as canon pairs have been a source of brokenness in the SFL for a while.

Kaoz
March 07, 2015, 01:49 PM
Well, that's technically true, but from my perspective it's more about whether people like singles or doubles better. It got a bit less clear cut since we started doing the point system, but overall there are still a lot of matches where character A should never beat character B in a singles match. In doubles it's a bit more of a mix due to requiring two characters while also having to balance out your overall line-up.

FrostyMouse
March 07, 2015, 04:48 PM
Well, that's technically true, but from my perspective it's more about whether people like singles or doubles better. It got a bit less clear cut since we started doing the point system, but overall there are still a lot of matches where character A should never beat character B in a singles match. In doubles it's a bit more of a mix due to requiring two characters while also having to balance out your overall line-up.

In a point based system, except for when we had the Twins beating Tokugawa in doubles (I loved that, even though it was horribly unrealistic), it probably still won't matter that much in doubles. If you put a GS guy in doubles, he's still going to win, unless his mook of a partner gets KOed before the opponents get KOed.

Kaoz
March 26, 2015, 08:11 AM
So since nobody seems to have a problem with it, we'll have three doubles from now on. Because of this I'm also going to increase the support bonuses a bit, so that you can't just stick one of the top guys into a doubles to solo that match.

In this format, I'd also like to give more characters Formations. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know.

[hr]

I feel like the match format is a bit lacking at the moment, but I can't really think of a simple way to improve it, so instead of dwelling on it any longer I've decided to just finish the characters we'll be using next season for now. Here's the new Krauser:


Liliadent Krauser [15, SB: 2, HP: 7, AR, R]
(SPE: 3, POW: 5, STA: 2, MEN: 2, TEC: 3)

-Iceman [Auto]:
Power cannot decrease. When activating a Special, Mental permanently increases by 1. Can activate Specials when Stamina is 0; loses at the end of that point.

-Tenacity [Counter]:
Activates when Stamina is 0 for the first time. Power permanently increases by 2.

-Hopping Ball [Special - Lv 2]:
Extra: ACE if every opponent's combined Speed and Mental is 5 or less. If ACE, all opponents' HP decreases by 1.

-Southern Cross [Special - Lv 3]:
Activation: Only activates if Hopping Ball has been activated twice before.
Data: Power increases by 1, Technique increases by 1.
Extra: ACE if every opponent's Speed is less than 4, their Mental is less than 4 or their Technique is less than 4. If ACE, all opponents' HP decreases by [Power].


---------- Post added at 02:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 AM ----------


Sadaharu Inui (14, SB: 1, HP: 6, SV, R]
(SPE: 2, POW: 3, STA: 3, MEN: 2, TEC: 4)

-Data Warrior [Auto]:
Negated after losing a service game for the first time. Mental increases by 3. If negated, all other abilities are negated.

-Doctor and Professor [Auto]:
Only activates with Yanagi as partner. Data Warrior cannot be negated. Partner's Mental increases by 1.

-Data Tennis [Auto]:
If every opponent's Mental is less than 5, Speed increases by 3, Technique increases by 1 and all opponents' Serves/Specials with Lv <= 2 are negated.

-Data Doubles - Probability: 100% [Formation]:
Only activates if both partners activate Data Tennis. Data Tennis is negated. Partner's Data Tennis is negated. If every opponent's Mental is less than 6, both partners' Speed increases by 3, their Technique increases by 1 and all opponents' Serves/Specials with Lv <= 3 are negated.

-Waterfall [Serve - Lv 3]:
Data: Power increases by 3, Technique increases by 1.
Extra: ACE if any opponent's combined Speed and Mental is less than 7.

Seakay
March 27, 2015, 07:55 AM
So since nobody seems to have a problem with it, we'll have three doubles from now on. Because of this I'm also going to increase the support bonuses a bit, so that you can't just stick one of the top guys into a doubles to solo that match.

Three doubles seems fine, should make for more interesting matches altogether. Are you still planning for the next season to be a shorter one with the other half of the roster that wasn't used in 2.5? If everyone has to pick six characters, does that change doing that though?


]In this format, I'd also like to give more characters Formations. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know.

Do you have a rough idea of how many characters have Formations right now? If most of the SPoT Double players had a Formation, would that be enough? I don't know how much design space there is for Formations there without reviewing some of the old matches.


I feel like the match format is a bit lacking at the moment, but I can't really think of a simple way to improve it

I liked best-of-7 altogether, even if sometimes it was just repeating the same point multiple times. (Although that was more so due to SSS I'd say). Not sure what an easy change could do to improve it though, especially without making Doubles more complicated.

Krauser and Inui look good. I take it Auto is the new name for Feats then, and Counter is standalone now too.

Kaoz
March 28, 2015, 05:54 AM
Three doubles seems fine, should make for more interesting matches altogether. Are you still planning for the next season to be a shorter one with the other half of the roster that wasn't used in 2.5? If everyone has to pick six characters, does that change doing that though?

Yeah, I want another test season. For the total number of characters, I figure we can just include some of the weaker ones from last time and maybe add three or four extra if necessary to get us to 48. Of course we'll then be left with a total of 60+ characters for the next full season, but we could do something like pick larger teams and work with a fatigue mechanic then to encourage rotating through the players.


Do you have a rough idea of how many characters have Formations right now? If most of the SPoT Double players had a Formation, would that be enough? I don't know how much design space there is for Formations there without reviewing some of the old matches.

Unfortunately they aren't that prevalent in the manga. From the top of my head, the characters that should get one as of right now are Oishi, Kikumaru, Shishido, Yagyuu, Inui, Yanagi, Mitsuya. Then there's some from characters that probably won't be included like Mukahi and the Jimmies. Mukahi's can probably be given to either Kirihara or Hiyoshi, not sure if there's anyone suitable for Sign Play. EDIT: Actually, I can think of something for at least Momoshiro and Hara as well, maybe Fuji too.

I suppose ideally a Formation should work in an already established pair but also be applicable to a few more partners. For example, Marui/Kite is a straight upgrade to Marui/Jackal, so if we had a Formation for the latter it should work for the former too. Or we've seen Inui and Yanagi play together using their DT, so they should be able to do that with other data players as well.


I liked best-of-7 altogether, even if sometimes it was just repeating the same point multiple times. (Although that was more so due to SSS I'd say). Not sure what an easy change could do to improve it though, especially without making Doubles more complicated.

I had two things in mind, one was to divide the two slots into a front player and a back player and then have them function slightly differently somehow, the other was to utilize the pair types (http://fanbook.livejournal.com/26149.html) described in PP 4 (Equal Footing Type, Leader Follower Type, Mutual Trust Type, Synchro Type) in some way, but neither seems really feasible.

One thing I would like to do though is add the ability to build new support levels over the course of the season.


Krauser and Inui look good. I take it Auto is the new name for Feats then, and Counter is standalone now too.

Yeah, forgot to explain that, my bad. Feat became Auto and Counters are what used to be Counter Feats (but I guess they're really just everything conditional now). I figured it's more intuitive this way.

---------- Post added at 07:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------


Renji Yanagi [18, SB: 1, HP: 6, CP, R]
(SPE: 3, POW: 3, STA: 3, MEN: 4, TEC: 5)

-Beast Tamer [Auto]:
Support Bonus cannot decrease.

-Data Tennis [Auto]:
Opponents' Serves/Specials with Lv <= 3 are negated. If a Serve/Special is negated this way, Speed increases by 1.

-Master [Counter]:
Triggers whenever an opponent activates Data Tennis. Mental increases by 1.

-Data Doubles - ...is what you wanted to say, right? [Formation]:
Only activates if both partners activate Data Tennis. Data Tennis is negated. Partner's Data Tennis is negated. Opponents' Serves/Specials with Lv <= 4 are negated. If a Serve/Special is negated this way, both partners' Speed increases by 2.

-Utsusemi [Special - Lv 3]:
Data: Technique increases by 4.
Extra: ACE if every opponent's combined Speed and Mental is less than 7.


---------- Post added March 28, 2015 at 09:56 AM ---------- Previous post was March 27, 2015 at 07:53 PM ----------


Akuto Mitsuya [21, SB: 1, HP: 6, CP, R]
(SPE: 4, POW: 3, STA: 3, MEN: 6, TEC: 5)

-Data Tennis [Auto]:
Opponents' Serves/Specials with Lv <= 3 are negated. If any opponent's Mental is less than 6, their Speed decreases by the difference between 6 and their Mental.

-Data Distraction [Counter]:
Triggers whenever an opponent activates Data Tennis. That opponent's Mental decreases by 1.

-Data Doubles - Information Overload [Formation]:
Only activates if both partners activate Data Tennis. Data Tennis is negated. Partner's Data Tennis is negated. Opponents' Serves/Specials with Lv <= 4 are negated. If any opponent's Mental is less than 7, their Speed decreases by the difference between 7 and their Mental.


Decided to go with what he got in the anime since it's more interesting than just having a better version of Yanagi.

---------- Post added at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 AM ----------

Another thing we could potentially do is add a rule that the pair you put into D3 has to have the lowest base total of the three whereas the one in D1 needs to have the highest. No idea if you guys would like this, but it'd probably allow for better planning. I don't think this would've worked with singles because some matches are just too static there, but it might be good for doubles - thoughts?

FrostyMouse
March 28, 2015, 06:08 AM
Wouldn't doing that mean that you more or less know who will be in each match for your opponent? Small variations aside, of course, you'd mostly...However, that might provide an interesting dynamic.

Kaoz
March 29, 2015, 06:04 AM
In singles you would since there's a clear order from strongest to weakest, however in doubles it's less clear cut since you can mix up the pairs. Of course it'd still be more predictable than not having any restrictions at all, but that's kind of the point.

---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 PM ----------


Senri Chitose [19, SB: 2, HP: 7, AR, L]
(SPE: 3, POW: 4, STA: 3, MEN: 4, TEC: 5)

-Wings of Kyuushu [Auto]:
Only activates with Tachibana as partner. If opponents' Support Level is 3, Support Bonus increases by 2.

-Strategist [Auto]:
Opponents' Formations are negated.

-Wild Awakening [Counter]:
Triggers the first time Moujuu no you na Synchro activates. Stamina increases by 1.

-Kamikakushi [Special - Lv 3]:
Data: Technique increases by 4. Opponent's Power increases through Specials at -2.
Extra: ACE if every opponent's combined Mental and Technique is less than 7.

-Moujuu no you na Synchro [Special - Lv 3]:
Activation: Only activates with Tachibana as partner. Cannot be negated.
Data: Speed increases by 2, Power increases by 1, Mental increases by 2.


Kippei Tachibana [20, SB: 2, HP: 9, AR, R]
(SPE: 3, POW: 5, STA: 4, MEN: 5, TEC: 3]

-Moujuu no you na Aura [Auto]:
Speed increases by 2, Power increases by 1.

-Super Rising [Special - Lv 1]:
Activation: Opponents' Serves are negated.

-Abare Jishi [Special - Lv 2]:
Data: Speed increases by 1, Power increases by 1.
Extra: ACE if every opponent's combined Speed and Power is less than 6.

-Abare Dama [Special - Lv 3]:
Activation: After activation, Stamina decreases by 2 instead of 1.
Data: Power increases by 3, Technique increases by 2.
Extra: ACE if every opponent's Speed is less than 4, their Mental is less than 4 or their Technique is less than 4.

-Moujuu no you na Synchro [Special - Lv 3]:
Only activates with Chitose as partner. Cannot be negated.
Data: Mental increases by 2.


Decided against giving Chitose Saiki in this format since it can't be used in doubles and I can't see him winning a 1v2 against anyone at this point. Implementation of Moujuu is a bit tricky in Tachibana's case - technically it should be a Special, but since it's his natural state and Moujuu's stamina boost is already included in his base stats anyway, I decided to make it an Auto for now. Would be open to combining it with Abare Jishi or something though.

---------- Post added March 29, 2015 at 01:04 PM ---------- Previous post was March 28, 2015 at 03:35 PM ----------


Chikahiko Matsudaira [19, SB: 2, HP: 8, SV, R]
(SPE: 5, POW: 4, STA: 4, MEN: 3, TEC: 3)

-Panic [Counter]:
Triggers whenever Flower does not ACE. Mental permanently decreases by 1.

-Flower [Serve – Lv 3]:
Data: Power increases by 1, Technique increases by 3.
Extra: ACE if receiver's combined Speed and Technique is less than 8.


Shinobu Miyako [20, SB: 2, HP: 9, AR, R]
(SPE: 2, POW: 5, STA: 4, MEN: 5, TEC: 4)

-Young Master [Auto]:
Partner's Mental cannot decrease. Opponents' Formations are negated.

-Covering [Auto]:
If checked, Speed returns as average of Power, Stamina, Mental and Technique.


Sotomichi Nakagauchi [21, SB: 2, HP: 10, AB, R]
(SPE: 3, POW: 4, STA: 6, MEN: 3, TEC: 5)

-Robot [Counter]:
Cannot be copied. Triggers whenever HP would decrease by 7 or less. HP decreases by 0 instead. All opponents' Mental permanently decreases by 1.

-Payback [Counter]:
Triggers the first time HP decreases (even if decrease is 0). Mental permanently increases by 1.

-Continuous Corner Shot [Special - Lv 3]:
Data: Technique increases by X where X is the number of times this has been activated during this match. If opponent’s Speed is less than 4, opponent’s Stamina decreases by 1.
Extra: ACE if opponent’s Speed is less than 5.

-Cord Ball [Special - Lv 3]:
Data: Technique increases by 2. Opponent’s Speed decreases by X where X is the number of times Continuous Corner Shot has been consecutively activated before this.
Extra: ACE if opponent’s combined Speed and Mental is less than 7.


Shun Suzuki [19, SB: 2, HP: 7, SV, R]
(SPE: 4, POW: 4, STA: 3, MEN: 4, TEC: 4)

-Sign Play [Formation]:
Only activates if Support Level is 2 or higher. Doubles Bonus increases by 3.

-Synchro [Special - Lv 3]:
Activation: Only activates with Washio as partner. Cannot be negated.
Data: Mental increases by 2. Dominant hand becomes Left.


Issa Washio [19, SB: 2, HP: 8, CP, R]
(SPE: 3, POW: 4, STA: 4, MEN: 4, TEC: 4)

-Sign Play [Formation]:
Only activates if Support Level is 2 or higher. Doubles Bonus increases by 3.

-Synchro [Special - Lv 3]:
Activation: Only activates with Suzuki as partner. Cannot be negated.
Data: Mental increases by 2.


Gave the Sign Play to Suzuki and Washio because they don't have anything else and this gives them some niche use compared to the other Synchro pairs at least. I was trying to think of something that utilizes Suzuki's hand switch, but nothing really came to mind.

Also, I hope the Cord Ball effect is clear, if not let me know, so that I can adjust it.