Chapter Tower of God Chapter 381 Discussion / 382 Predictions

[StingingNettle]

This is true.

But the reality that even Jinsung was threatening his companions earlier on and was at least complicit in his kidnapping in the beginning. And though he knew Karaka and the hardliners where trying to mess with Baam he did nothing about it. To be fair, it seems like Jinsung at least has changed his tune to some degree but he still doesn't seem willing to actually step up and put a stop to Karaka. When Baam was threatened it was Yuri, not him, that stepped up.

And when Baam decided he was going to board the hell train Jinsung tried to forcefully prevent it; so he's still willing to make Baam act as he wishes against Baam's own will.

Baam is a kid, at most a teenager. Can't just let someone who hasn't even matured run off to do whatever he wants. Jinsung was doing the right thing as he thought that White, a high ranker, was on the train. That guy would not have broken a sweat to wipe Baam off the face of the earth in an instant.

Jinsung also manipulated FUG politics to greatly weaken Karaka during the workshop battle. As for being complicit with his kidnapping and trying to mold him into something else, he's acting within his own self-interests for the thing he wants the most. No one will ever treat Baam perfectly.

I think it's probably some of both foolishness and impatience.
Considering Baam is their best hope of somebody taking down Zahard. I would think they would be like...

"Hey Baam! Need money? Here you go!"
"Hey Baam! Need power? Lets get you the best we've got!"
"Hey Baam! Friends in danger? Please, let us guard them with our lives!"
"Hey Baam! Need your shoes shined? Karaka shine his goddamn shoes right now!!!"

Remember Baam does not in any way need FUG. FUG on the other hand actually needs Baam. Without him they are well and truly boned. So it is not a relationship of equals where they are the superior and he is the subordinate. They are parasites clinging desperately to him.

That's exactly why they must control him. He is their best shot, and maybe one day he could screw off without killing Zahard. What will they do then? It's easy for you to say when what you care about is Baam's well-being, but to FUG, he is their only option besides Rachel. Giving a tween whatever he wants without a leash in hopes that he will do what you want is sort of what some would call a foolish plan. It's a real concern among FUG members.

 

[Jammin]

Baam is a kid, at most a teenager. Can't just let someone who hasn't even matured run off to do whatever he wants. Jinsung was doing the right thing as he thought that White, a high ranker, was on the train. That guy would not have broken a sweat to wipe Baam off the face of the earth in an instant.

Jinsung also manipulated FUG politics to greatly weaken Karaka during the workshop battle. As for being complicit with his kidnapping and trying to mold him into something else, he's acting within his own self-interests for the thing he wants the most. No one will ever treat Baam perfectly.

But again doesn't that prove that all the talk about him being their god is just lip service? They either believe that Baam is some great godlike being or a puppet they can force to do what they want. They can't have it both ways.

If they really thought Baam was a kid, which he's not (he was born at least 5000 years ago), they should have protected him and raised him in such a way that he'd become attached to them. They have consistently chosen to go with the stick over the carrot. And allowed their own people to become a threat to him. That's a really shortsighted way to handle things.

That's exactly why they must control him. He is their best shot, and maybe one day he could screw off without killing Zahard. What will they do then? It's easy for you to say when what you care about is Baam's well-being, but to FUG, he is their only option besides Rachel. Giving a tween whatever he wants without a leash in hopes that he will do what you want is sort of what some would call a foolish plan. It's a real concern among FUG members.

They can't control him though. They never could. That's the fallacy here.

They want him to do something they're too weak to do. So in order to do it he must be stronger than all of them. That means they have no long term leverage. Sure they can coerce obedience on low floors when he's relatively weak but by the time he's not even halfway up the tower and look how strong he is? When he gets to be as strong as somebody like Mazino FUG's not going to control him at all. That is something that's going to happen. When that time comes he's going to remember what they did. Good and bad.

So that they have resorting to coercion at this stage is kind of insane.

You know the saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend.". FUG has done way more to Baam to make themselves his enemy than they have his friend.

 

[Brian Taboada]

But again doesn't that prove that all the talk about him being their god is just lip service? They either believe that Baam is some great godlike being or a puppet they can force to do what they want. They can't have it both ways.

If they really thought Baam was a kid, which he's not (he was born at least 5000 years ago), they should have protected him and raised him in such a way that he'd become attached to them. They have consistently chosen to go with the stick over the carrot. And allowed their own people to become a threat to him. That's a really shortsighted way to handle things.

They can't control him though. They never could. That's the fallacy here.

They want him to do something they're too weak to do. So in order to do it he must be stronger than all of them. That means they have no long term leverage. Sure they can coerce obedience on low floors when he's relatively weak but by the time he's not even halfway up the tower and look how strong he is? When he gets to be as strong as somebody like Mazino FUG's not going to control him at all. That is something that's going to happen. When that time comes he's going to remember what they did. Good and bad.

So that they have resorted to coercion at this stage is kind of insane.

You know the saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend.". FUG has done way more to Baam to make themselves his enemy than they have his friend.

I largely agree with your ending premise. FUG did a really poor job of indoctrinating Baam or merely convincing him to support FUG.

I think the problem is that FUG is not a cohesive organization. Is it evil, good, or somewhere in-between? I tend to think it is all of these and it merely depends on which faction you are dealing with. TBH it is not unlike most political organizations.

However, the use of the term god, though not necessarily lipservice, is not used as an antonym to divinity. All slayers are GODs. The rulers of ancient Egypt, the Incas, Japan, Rome, etc. were all treated as gods. I am sure a number of them had advisors or generals coercing then to act in particular ways to further the agenda of the advisor/general. I think that is true here as well.

 

[kkck]

That just proves he doesn't really view him as a god. Just as a tool.

The very idea of testing Baam goes against the concept of them viewing him as a greater being than they are. It's inherent in that mindset that they believe themselves worthy to mold and judge him.

Which is the point I'm trying to make about FUG's foolishness with how they handled Baam. They believed they could dictate terms and control him but, ultimately in order to do what they want him to, they can't. Long before he's strong enough to take down Zahard he'll be strong enough to take FUG down. All they've done is make an enemy out of the one person who can make their dreams a reality. Their worst fear should be that Baam one day decides to side with Zahard against them.

Why? That is very much dependent on what exactly they consider a god. And ToG is a story where god is a term that can or not take a very liberal meaning. You have beings that can become gods, like axis, gods outside the tower, gods inside the tower, godlike beings like zahard... Even plain rankers are regarded as gods to some towers inhabitants. FUG also has 11 gods. And you know what all of those have in common? They all originate from mortals and become something like higher beings (this might or not apply to whatever is the will of the tower or the god outside the tower though). With that in mind, them trying to mold bam into their god is not really against the idea that bam is a greater being than they are, if anything molding a god that suits your needs makes sense. And in the context of fug, it'd be other gods who are overlooking bam's growth as a god.

Now, that is not to say FUG's approach to bam was "good" or even smart but the rationale behind it is far more coherent than your post would suggest. That said, I am not trying to suggest FUG are the good guys. As far as we know FUG is a twisted organization led by twisted gods which is why rather than opening with a "Hey bam, wanna know your secret identity?" they went with throwing him down a pit to kidnap and blackmail him.

 

[shaheer]

Bam will either take over Fug or destroy it. There is nothing other than some individual in Fug thats worth saving. Its a twisted organization that has destroyed as many innocent lives as the 10 great family and zahard did which the Fug use as a levy to proselytize.

 

[Jammin]

I largely agree with your ending premise. FUG did a really poor job of indoctrinating Baam or merely convincing him to support FUG.

I think the problem is that FUG is not a cohesive organization. Is it evil, good, or somewhere in-between? I tend to think it is all of these and it merely depends on which faction you are dealing with. TBH it is not unlike most political organizations.

However, the use of the term god, though not necessarily lipservice, is not used as an antonym to divinity. All slayers are GODs. The rulers of ancient Egypt, the Incas, Japan, Rome, etc. were all treated as gods. I am sure a number of them had advisors or generals coercing then to act in particular ways to further the agenda of the advisor/general. I think that is true here as well.

I agree and disagree with that.

Your definitely right that FUG is not cohesive. If everything was up to Jinsung I'm sure he would have handled things differently but that's a failure of leadership. That FUG infighting could result in anybody in the organization working against the likely only irregular they have any hope of ever recruiting is the most epic of fails.

As for gods, if an advisor did something like that then they no longer worshiped the ruler as a deity. Just because the masses believed someone was a god doesn't mean that everyone does. Now it could be that's what FUG meant to do here. Have their underlings worship Baam as a good but while they rule his actions from the shadows. But anyone doing that does not believe Baam is their god. Not in the true sense of term.

Why? That is very much dependent on what exactly they consider a god. And ToG is a story where god is a term that can or not take a very liberal meaning. You have beings that can become gods, like axis, gods outside the tower, gods inside the tower, godlike beings like zahard... Even plain rankers are regarded as gods to some towers inhabitants. FUG also has 11 gods. And you know what all of those have in common? They all originate from mortals and become something like higher beings (this might or not apply to whatever is the will of the tower or the god outside the tower though). With that in mind, them trying to mold bam into their god is not really against the idea that bam is a greater being than they are, if anything molding a god that suits your needs makes sense. And in the context of fug, it'd be other gods who are overlooking bam's growth as a god.

Now, that is not to say FUG's approach to bam was "good" or even smart but the rationale behind it is far more coherent than your post would suggest. That said, I am not trying to suggest FUG are the good guys. As far as we know FUG is a twisted organization led by twisted gods which is why rather than opening with a "Hey bam, wanna know your secret identity?" they went with throwing him down a pit to kidnap and blackmail him.

Because a god by definition is a higher being. If one treats someone as a being lesser or subordinate to themselves then they do not view it as a god in the true sense of the term. You can't worship and command something at the same time. It's a contradiction in terms.

One is a display of respect and adoration beyond oneself the toward the other. While the other is a display of authority over the other. One has to have authority over the other. If the highest authority rests with them and not him. Then, whatever word they use to refer to him, they are viewing him as a tool and not a god.

The way FUG has acted with Baam was to try and have it's cake and eat it too. And that's one of the major reasons they failed. Baam's relationship with FUG has largely turned antagonistic. He has rejected the name and image they gave him. He's traveling with a Zahard Princess. And has actually gotten along fairly well with Gustav and Eduan. Their plan probably hasn't burnt up entirely yet but it's definitely on fire.

--- Double Post Merged, May 15, 2018, Original Post Date: May 15, 2018 ---

Bam will either take over Fug or destroy it. There is nothing other than some individual in Fug thats worth saving. Its a twisted organization that has destroyed as many innocent lives as the 10 great family and zahard did which the Fug use as a levy to proselytize.

I'd say project "Viole" is pretty close to a lost cause at this point. Not sure how they can rebuild enough trust to get much in the way of cooperation but I have to think they will try.

Either than or begin "Project Rachel"

 

[HonArie]

Bam will either take over Fug or destroy it. There is nothing other than some individual in Fug thats worth saving. Its a twisted organization that has destroyed as many innocent lives as the 10 great family and zahard did which the Fug use as a levy to proselytize.

Conceivable I suppose. Although, Baam seems like the hardest person to antagnise to the point of personal retribution that leads to death(s), nor do I see an ambition like ruling within him. I see him picking the option of abandoning the organisation 7/10 of the time.

 

[kkck]

Because a god by definition is a higher being. If one treats someone as a being lesser or subordinate to themselves then they do not view it as a god in the true sense of the term. You can't worship and command something at the same time. It's a contradiction in terms.

One is a display of respect and adoration beyond oneself the toward the other. While the other is a display of authority over the other. One has to have authority over the other. If the highest authority rests with them and not him. Then, whatever word they use to refer to him, they are viewing him as a tool and not a god.

The way FUG has acted with Baam was to try and have it's cake and eat it too. And that's one of the major reasons they failed. Baam's relationship with FUG has largely turned antagonistic. He has rejected the name and image they gave him. He's traveling with a Zahard Princess. And has actually gotten along fairly well with Gustav and Eduan. Their plan probably hasn't burnt up entirely yet but it's definitely on fire.

But again, that takes us back to what people within the tower consider a god. Tower residents do not view gods as we do. Just look back before the workshop battle how xia xia talked to bam, her god. She stopped just short of "I AM TRYING TO WORSHIP YOU WHY DO YOU MAKE THIS SO DIFFICULT!?". And told him that gods that don't grant wishes are useless to humans. These guys clearly don't see gods as we do.

TBH I am not sure any of those things fug would object to. He is travelling with a zahard princess but it is not like he has become friends with zahard. FUG usually makes a point of insulting the empire (they are petty that way) so bam traveling with a princess might even be desirable provided she doesn't pose a risk to bam. Heck, she might even be motivation for bam to fight zahard. Imagine bam deciding he doesn't care about zahard... and then fug reveals to zahard that androsi has a boyfriend whom she has been sexing up meanwhile zahard remains as sexless as ever. And gustang is someone that might have ties to fug and it is only data eduan that bam has befriended.

 

[StingingNettle]

But again doesn't that prove that all the talk about him being their god is just lip service? They either believe that Baam is some great godlike being or a puppet they can force to do what they want. They can't have it both ways.

If they really thought Baam was a kid, which he's not (he was born at least 5000 years ago), they should have protected him and raised him in such a way that he'd become attached to them. They have consistently chosen to go with the stick over the carrot. And allowed their own people to become a threat to him. That's a really shortsighted way to handle things.

They can't control him though. They never could. That's the fallacy here.

They want him to do something they're too weak to do. So in order to do it he must be stronger than all of them. That means they have no long term leverage. Sure they can coerce obedience on low floors when he's relatively weak but by the time he's not even halfway up the tower and look how strong he is? When he gets to be as strong as somebody like Mazino FUG's not going to control him at all. That is something that's going to happen. When that time comes he's going to remember what they did. Good and bad.

So that they have resorting to coercion at this stage is kind of insane.

You know the saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend.". FUG has done way more to Baam to make themselves his enemy than they have his friend.

Yes they can. A god to them is someone who will grant their most desired wishes, forced or not. You really overestimate how hard it is to manipulate and control Baam. Just almost all villains have held some people hostage and managed to get Baam to do as they wished. Reflejo even KO'd Baam because he was too mentally weak to fight because there was a blade on Hwaryun's throat, the person responsible for putting him into FUG.

He is attached to Rachel. You can't force attachment.

Everyone has a price. Even gods. But here's what you can't do: befriend someone and give them everything in hopes that they do what you want. That's not how things work.

You know the saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

In the end all the things that FUG did won't matter as Zahard is fated to be Baam's worst enemy. He is the empire's biggest enemy, and will definitely not be Baam's friend.

 

[Demonspeed]

In the end all the things that FUG did won't matter as Zahard is fated to be Baam's worst enemy. He is the empire's biggest enemy, and will definitely not be Baam's friend.

Not necessarily. Zahard is not the empire's enemy. He is FUG's enemy. Not everyone likes him but a part of the population enjoys his reign, some are neutral. Yuri for example doesn't dislike it, but she is bored because things are stagnant.

Baam doesn't have to kill Zahard or anything. Others want him to but he personally doesn't care about that. That was discussed during his Revolution.

 

[HonArie]

Not necessarily. Zahard is not the empire's enemy. He is FUG's enemy. Not everyone likes him but a part of the population enjoys his reign, some are neutral. Yuri for example doesn't dislike it, but she is bored because things are stagnant.

I believe he is suggesting that Baam is the empire's biggest enemy. Not Zahard.

 

[Jammin]

In the end all the things that FUG did won't matter as Zahard is fated to be Baam's worst enemy. He is the empire's biggest enemy, and will definitely not be Baam's friend.

The issue I think is in the difference between FUG's goals and Baams. What they want isn't the same thing.

FUG's stated goal is bringing down Zahard and the 10 families.

Baam's goal is to protect his friends and climb the tower with them.

I think your right that means he will come into conflict with Zahard. There are several things that will force that to happen. Not the least of which is how determined he is to keep people from climbing the tower further than they have already. And the whole Zahard Princess thing is also bound to be trouble in the future. But that's kind of where the common goals end. For the moment, Baam doesn't have much interest in going to war with Zahard and his empire. His goal isn't to bring down Zahard and he could care less about bringing down the 10 families.

Until this arc it's not been Zahard endangering his friends and getting in his way. It's been FUG. So if it comes down to war with the Zahard Empire how can they expect him to be on their side? Even if he does end up fighting Zahard individually, he could easily side against FUG with any or all of the 10 families and the Zahard Empire. Especially since they've been much better to him than FUG has.

 

[StingingNettle]

I believe he is suggesting that Baam is the empire's biggest enemy. Not Zahard.

Yes thank you. That is what I meant to say. "[Baam] is the empire's biggest enemy, and [Zahard] will definitely not be Baam's friend."

The issue I think is in the difference between FUG's goals and Baams. What they want isn't the same thing.

FUG's stated goal is bringing down Zahard and the 10 families.

Baam's goal is to protect his friends and climb the tower with them.

I think your right that means he will come into conflict with Zahard. There are several things that will force that to happen. Not the least of which is how determined he is to keep people from climbing the tower further than they have already. And the whole Zahard Princess thing is also bound to be trouble in the future. But that's kind of where the common goals end. For the moment, Baam doesn't have much interest in going to war with Zahard and his empire. His goal isn't to bring down Zahard and he could care less about bringing down the 10 families.

Until this arc it's not been Zahard endangering his friends and getting in his way. It's been FUG. So if it comes down to war with the Zahard Empire how can they expect him to be on their side? Even if he does end up fighting Zahard individually, he could easily side against FUG with any or all of the 10 families and the Zahard Empire. Especially since they've been much better to him than FUG has.

Baam taking FUG's help is a risk he might have to take. If possible he can come back to FUG and completely reform it by consolidating all authority to be under him, and abolishing the slayer system. Here is where "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" really applies. Baam is a reminder to Zahard about Arlene and a true threat to stability. He cannot live once Zahard finds out about his existence.

Hopefully at that point Baam is worth more to FUG whole instead of being melted into the thorn or has squashed FUG dissenters.

The 10 families sided with Zahard when Arlene and V rebelled. You can argue why would Baam trust them when they were happy with what Zahard was doing.

 

[axl2608]

I don't think that Baam will consolidate authority under him. He already said that he doesn't want to stand above anyone else and that he just wants to climb with his friends. I think if it will come to blows with FUG, he will rather destroy them than rule them.

 

[shaheer]

Bam isnt a leader, i agree with that fully. Koon can be a leader though i doubt a popular one but Bam can be a charismatic person every one looks up to but leadership is not in his vein. He is a good natured guy trying to save every one he can

 

[StingingNettle]

I don't think that Baam will consolidate authority under him. He already said that he doesn't want to stand above anyone else and that he just wants to climb with his friends. I think if it will come to blows with FUG, he will rather destroy them than rule them.

Destroying them would be impossible when the Zahard empire hasn't been able to.

Bam isnt a leader, i agree with that fully. Koon can be a leader though i doubt a popular one but Bam can be a charismatic person every one looks up to but leadership is not in his vein. He is a good natured guy trying to save every one he can

He hasn't been a leader so far, but he's just got a bunch of changes happen to him. He will be leader where his father failed. This is what the story is being set up for. If his efforts are not half-assed, he will be leader to "save every one he can" instead of leaving it to Koon who doesn't give a two cents about saving people.

 

[Brian Taboada]

Destroying them would be impossible when the Zahard empire hasn't been able to.

I think Baam may be able to destroy them just by publicly rejecting them. With that I mean, FUG was created to continue a war that centers on the beliefs of Arlene and V. Here they finally have the promised son who will make their dreams come true. But what if he instead said what they are dreaming was never the goal of Arlene and V. That they have twisted the original struggle and he will not support it. That may be enough to destroy a good portion of FUG especially if Baam is at a level of Urek when he does this.

He hasn't been a leader so far, but he's just got a bunch of changes happen to him. He will be leader where his father failed. This is what the story is being set up for. If his efforts are not half-assed, he will be leader to "save every one he can" instead of leaving it to Koon who doesn't give a two cents about saving people.

I agree but believe Koon is changing. This is in large part due to Baam.

 

[shaheer]

Destroying them would be impossible when the Zahard empire hasn't been able to.

I think they are not able to destroy because noone is actively scourging them down when they wanted to they did get them. White was a full fleged slayer but was defeated by Arie princess. Also i think Gustang and few others from the 10 family secretly supports them. Not to mention none of the 10 other than being helpful are actively trying to get against them. They let it go for younger folks to do what they want to do.

 

[HonArie]

I think Baam may be able to destroy them just by publicly rejecting them. With that I mean, FUG was created to continue a war that centers on the beliefs of Arlene and V. Here they finally have the promised son who will make their dreams come true. But what if he instead said what they are dreaming was never the goal of Arlene and V. That they have twisted the original struggle and he will not support it. That may be enough to destroy a good portion of FUG especially if Baam is at a level of Urek when he does this.

I don't think that's ideal. That would just start a war between Baam and the entirety of Fug if he leaves with the thorn. Baam may be powerful as Urek at the point he proclaims this, but his friends would be in constant danger as they would not be near that level of power. This is the organisation that has the balls of wanting to start a war with the empire that consists of 11 of Urek's peers, and much more powerful regulars than Baam is traveling with. Might be best to join Urek's organisation or when majority of his friends are High-rankers within the top 500 or so.

 

[kkck]

I don't think that's ideal. That would just start a war between Baam and the entirety of Fug if he leaves with the thorn. Baam may be powerful as Urek at the point he proclaims this, but his friends would be in constant danger as they would not be near that level of power. This is the organisation that has the balls of wanting to start a war with the empire that consists of 11 of Urek's peers, and much more powerful regulars than Baam is traveling with. Might be best to join Urek's organisation or when majority of his friends are High-rankers within the top 500 or so.

If bam is that powerful then his friends are covered. Just look at how gustang dealt with urek. Gustang made it very clear he didn't want urek killing his entire family. Barring the odd nutjob, FUG members are unlikely to want to die for literally nothing at the hand of the god they'd hope would fulfill their wishes.

You also have to consider that the actual family heads do not think of much fug in general, they are not a actually a threat. It's only family members that care. So yeah, they are ballsy to stand up to the empire but they are also lucky that the empire doesn't care enough for the family heads to actually target them.