True, but Zeref blasting him continuously would be pretty dumb, a quick punch to the gut or something would be the strategy, maybe a blast to the back of the head. Fairy Law would also probably work, given Acno couldn't eat Fairy Sphere. Attacking with Curse might also be a good idea, though I don't know how well it mixes with magic. All that aside, I dont see why Zeref wouldnt get anywhere hitting Acno with his fists.
I call that version of Base Natsu, Savage Natsu, seeing as he's leagues above any incarnation of Natsu bar 7DS Natsu. So Acno or Aldaron being able to trash base Natsu doesn't really mean anything to me, because FH Zeref didn't fight that Base Natsu. His portrayal as Acno's potential equal still stands relatively strong, certainly enough so that he would be able to defeat Acno's weaker form.
Burning Zeref's magic isn't good enough, Natsu needs to go the full 9 yards or else Zeref will just be the same as before, infinite and immortal. You can't have less power than everything Savage Natsu had and beat Zeref, you can't take him in a battle of attrition, he's infinite.
As for Ignia Natsu's hands, alternatively, it could simply be that no attack IgniaNatsu landed on Merc had "burning hands" power behind it, because his hands weren't burning at the time. Natsu was clearly amping up when he went "i'll burn everything" and his scales went away the same time his flames did, so protection wouldn't really apply, because scaleless Natsu didn't touch the flames.
Sure, that would be impressive... unless Zeref is stronger than that dragon god(which by all accounts he should be), in which case overpowering Zeref is the better feat. Physical strength comes from magic power, you know that.
I seriously doubt Zeref is going to outfight Acnologia without magical attacks. Sphere and Law aren't really the same thing. Law is closer to glitter than it is to Sphere.
That was just base Natsu. Again, "savage flames" involves FDK Natsu with flames of emotion. This was base Natsu, and he had yet to give the speech of turning his guild's power into power.
Zeref's magic at that point was Fairy Heart. He noted that time itself was burning too. The flames were hot enough to stop Zeref from reversing time and just undoing all the damage Natsu dealt him. You don't have to kill Zeref to beat him. Natsu didn't. You just have to stop Fairy Heart from reversing time and then injure him enough so that he can't move.
Natsu's hands were still fine right up until the moment Lucy calmed him down. The attack that beat Mercphobia didn't burn Natsu's hands, and that was the actual attack. Seems odd to me that the flames would get hotter as he calms down, so the simplest explanation to me is that the dragon scales simply protected Natsu's hands from burning until he calmed down. There is another possibility, and that is that Dragon Force masked the injuries underneath the scales....but there's no way to tell, and it doesn't really matter either way.
I seriously doubt Zeref is going to outfight Acnologia without magical attacks. Sphere and Law aren't really the same thing. Law is closer to glitter than it is to Sphere.
That was just base Natsu. Again, "savage flames" involves FDK Natsu with flames of emotion. This was base Natsu, and he had yet to give the speech of turning his guild's power into power.
Zeref's magic at that point was Fairy Heart. He noted that time itself was burning too. The flames were hot enough to stop Zeref from reversing time and just undoing all the damage Natsu dealt him. You don't have to kill Zeref to beat him. Natsu didn't. You just have to stop Fairy Heart from reversing time and then injure him enough so that he can't move.
Natsu's hands were still fine right up until the moment Lucy calmed him down. The attack that beat Mercphobia didn't burn Natsu's hands, and that was the actual attack. Seems odd to me that the flames would get hotter as he calms down, so the simplest explanation to me is that the dragon scales simply protected Natsu's hands from burning until he calmed down. There is another possibility, and that is that Dragon Force masked the injuries underneath the scales....but there's no way to tell, and it doesn't really matter either way.
All I know is that Eileen and August thought he may be able to outfight Dragon Acno, how he does it doesn't really matter. Could be that he does it by punching, could be he does it with obscure inedible magic. Though honestly if we're going to go ahead and assume that Acno can bypass FH like Natsu, I could just assume that Zeref can bypass immunity like Natsu
Uhuh, well "Base Natsu" was doing as good against FH Zeref as he was against normal Zeref, so unless you're saying FH isn't a power up, "Base Natsu" is basically god. And if you are saying FH isn't a power up, well, I don't know what to tell you, it's contrary to pretty much everything the manga is telling us. Natsu's speech also doesn't signal the beginning of his power up, Natsu can give his speech midway but have accessed it the whole fight.
No one said anything about killing Zeref, Natsu simply needed every bit of power he offered in canon to beat FH Zeref, including "burning hands" power. The "burning Zeref's time" before that wasn't enough to beat him, so having that level of power doesn't really matter.
Sure, that's what I said, Natsu didn't have "burning hands" power when he beat Merc, so his performance doesn't really matter in relation to Acno vs Zeref.
What seems more odd to me is that "burning hands" power barely burns Lucy, yet another reason it's not comparable to Savage Flames.
And sure, it doesn't matter either way, because there is no real way to compare how much power either form had, Mashima made no relation between the two, and it's certainly not any sort of proof that FH Zeref's portrayal as a match for Acno, is so wildly wrong that Zeref can't even take Acno's human form.
True, but Zeref blasting him continuously would be pretty dumb, a quick punch to the gut or something would be the strategy, maybe a blast to the back of the head. Fairy Law would also probably work, given Acno couldn't eat Fairy Sphere. Attacking with Curse might also be a good idea, though I don't know how well it mixes with magic. All that aside, I dont see why Zeref wouldnt get anywhere hitting Acno with his fists.
I call that version of Base Natsu, Savage Natsu, seeing as he's leagues above any incarnation of Natsu bar 7DS Natsu. So Acno or Aldaron being able to trash base Natsu doesn't really mean anything to me, because FH Zeref didn't fight that Base Natsu. His portrayal as Acno's potential equal still stands relatively strong, certainly enough so that he would be able to defeat Acno's weaker form.
Burning Zeref's magic isn't good enough, Natsu needs to go the full 9 yards or else Zeref will just be the same as before, infinite and immortal. You can't have less power than everything Savage Natsu had and beat Zeref, you can't take him in a battle of attrition, he's infinite.
As for Ignia Natsu's hands, alternatively, it could simply be that no attack IgniaNatsu landed on Merc had "burning hands" power behind it, because his hands weren't burning at the time. Natsu was clearly amping up when he went "i'll burn everything" and his scales went away the same time his flames did, so protection wouldn't really apply, because scaleless Natsu didn't touch the flames.
Sure, that would be impressive... unless Zeref is stronger than that dragon god(which by all accounts he should be), in which case overpowering Zeref is the better feat. Physical strength comes from magic power, you know that.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Yep, that's exactly what he did, and it was a low diff fight.
Sure, Natsu just had the power of love. Love>Acno. As for MP not mattering, what about it? Zeref is Acno's equal because of statements and because Acno doesn't have any drastically better feats, not because his MP is infinite.
But why would the entire continent matter when Zeref has infinite magic? He has more magic than the continent. Besides, that's RoT Acno, not human Acno. Zeref doesn't need continental power to beat Human Acno.
Exactly what he does isn’t any different from what he did to hades Mard geer and lacarde oneshot exchausted people/not willing to fight not impressive imo.
“POF”didn’t kicked in till their last clash. Before that base natsu was overwhelm FH zeref and in fact tanked his “infinite magic” like it was nothing again pathetic. What statement proved that he was acno equal? show me panels. Offense Feats wise on par with base natsu at best I don’t understand u agree that dragon acno>FH zeref now u don’t? Are u filp floppin? Cuz ur using infinite magic as the reason..
And that magic was couldnt down base natsu when he got his MP back. cuz like u and I agree on MP don’t mean a damn thing in FT. Acno will just eat the infinite magic. Nothing zeref can do acno can just pull what base natsu did to him easy.
Exactly what he does isn’t any different from what he did to hades Mard geer and lacarde oneshot exchausted people/not willing to fight not impressive imo.
“POF”didn’t kicked in till their last clash. Before that base natsu was overwhelm FH zeref and in fact tanked his “infinite magic” like it was nothing again pathetic. What statement proved that he was acno equal? show me panels. Offense Feats wise on par with base natsu at best I don’t understand u agree that dragon acno>FH zeref now u don’t? Are u filp floppin? Cuz ur using infinite magic as the reason..
And that magic was couldnt down base natsu when he got his MP back. cuz like u and I agree on MP don’t mean a damn thing in FT. Acno will just eat the infinite magic. Nothing zeref can do acno can just pull what base natsu did to him easy.
Difference is Natsu spent all his power on Zeref, not someone else. It's Natsu's own fault he got low diffed
PoF was there since Natsu woke up, he says himself. he's going to use the "greatest power" his guilds power.
Flip flopping? I don't know what you're expecting from me. Dragon Acno>FH Zeref>Human Acno, that's my stance.
Sure, and Zeref can just pull what Natsu did to Acno and bypass Acno's immunity.
If MP doesnt matter to me or you, why would I care about Acno being beaten by the continents MP? This is why I mention infinite MP, because it perfectly demonstrates why MP doesn't matter, because logically Zeref has more MP than the continent
Difference is Natsu spent all his power on Zeref, not someone else. It's Natsu's own fault he got low diffed
PoF was there since Natsu woke up, he says himself. he's going to use the "greatest power" his guilds power.
Flip flopping? I don't know what you're expecting from me. Dragon Acno>FH Zeref>Human Acno, that's my stance.
Sure, and Zeref can just pull what Natsu did to Acno and bypass Acno's immunity.
If MP doesnt matter to me or you, why would I care about Acno being beaten by the continents MP? This is why I mention infinite MP, because it perfectly demonstrates why MP doesn't matter, because logically Zeref has more MP than the continent
No difference zeref oneshot ppl with when the out of magic/no willing to fight that’s are his best feats of natsu has some mp left he wouldn’t get oneshotted.
Impossible when u don’t think zeref>acno unless u changed ur mind.
Because FH zeref offense feats didn’t do shit to base natsu(when he has MP) Him have unlimited MP doesn’t mean jack in that sense cause his attacks didnt damage base natsu neither would it damage human acno In fact he just laugh it off/tank it/eat his magic
POF NATSU is weaker than 7DS natsu ingia natsu and current natsu
No difference zeref oneshot ppl with when the out of magic/no willing to fight that’s are his best feats of natsu has some mp left he wouldn’t get oneshotted.
Impossible when u don’t think zeref>acno unless u changed ur mind.
Because FH zeref offense feats didn’t do shit to base natsu(when he has MP) Him have unlimited MP doesn’t mean jack in that sense cause his attacks didnt damage base natsu neither would it damage human acno In fact he just laugh it off/tank it/eat his magic
POF NATSU is weaker than 7DS natsu ingia natsu and current natsu
Sure, Zeref just low diffed Natsu, a pretty damn good feat if i do say so myself. Natsu attacked, Zeref attacked, Natsu ended up dead, a no diff win any way you slice it.
Nah, it started here
You heard it straight from the manga, Natsu was using the greatest power in the entire series to beat Zeref, I guess that includes FH.
If you're going to assume Acno bypasses FH like Natsu did, why would I also not assume Zeref bypasses immunity like Natsu lol?
Acno's offense feats ain't too hot either.
Savage Natsu is better than all those except 7DS Natsu.
Sure, Zeref just low diffed Natsu, a pretty damn good feat if i do say so myself. Natsu attacked, Zeref attacked, Natsu ended up dead, a no diff win any way you slice it.
Nah, it started here
You heard it straight from the manga, Natsu was using the greatest power in the entire series to beat Zeref, I guess that includes FH.
If you're going to assume Acno bypasses FH like Natsu did, why would I also not assume Zeref bypasses immunity like Natsu lol?
Acno's offense feats ain't too hot either.
Savage Natsu is better than all those except 7DS Natsu.
Ya oneshoting exchausted ppl like hades mard geer and lacarde hbeat feats.
Ya and he started using it when the guild mark glow not before he was just telling him he gonna use the greatest power.
becsuse u don’t believe overall zeref>acno so at the end of the day ur logic is flawed. 2. Cause u don’t believe natsu>acno so if natsu>Zeref zeref>acno either. 3.human acno being playing around the whole entire series. Meanwhile FH zeref attacks were getting tanked by base natsu. 4.DF natsu<acno so again please provide me how zeref beat human acno
Ya oneshoting exchausted ppl like hades mard geer and lacarde hbeat feats.
Ya and he started using it when the guild mark glow not before he was just telling him he gonna use the greatest power.
becsuse u don’t believe overall zeref>acno so at the end of the day ur logic is flawed. 2. Cause u don’t believe natsu>acno so if natsu>Zeref zeref>acno either. 3.human acno being playing around the whole entire series. Meanwhile FH zeref attacks were getting tanked by base natsu. 4.DF natsu<acno so again please provide me how zeref beat human acno
Ya oneshoting exchausted ppl like hades mard geer and lacarde hbeat feats.
Ya and he started using it when the guild mark glow not before he was just telling him he gonna use the greatest power.
becsuse u don’t believe overall zeref>acno so at the end of the day ur logic is flawed. 2. Cause u don’t believe natsu>acno so if natsu>Zeref zeref>acno either. 3.human acno being playing around the whole entire series. Meanwhile FH zeref attacks were getting tanked by base natsu. 4.DF natsu<acno so again please provide me how zeref beat human acno
Yep, and it's better than beating God Serena... by far. DF Natsu would solo multiple spriggans
Yeah, he told him... and he did. "Base" Natsu was doing as well against FH Zeref as he was against Base Zeref, so unless you're telling me FH isn't a power up, "Base" Natsu was in a totally different league.
1. No, I believe Zeref>Human Acno. Acno's durability increases dramatically as a dragon imo.
2. Why does Natsu>Acno matter? Natsu bypassed Acno's immunity, whether he's stronger or not that's what he did. We don't know how, we don't know why, if you're going to give Natsu's ability to Acno, I'm going to give it to Zeref, it's as simple as that, because neither character has Natsu's feats.
3. Why should I care about that? If Acno doesn't have the feats then he doesn't have the feats. I'm not going to just assume that he's better than he is lol. Zeref's hype as Acno's equal stands until Acno shows he's better.
All I know is that Eileen and August thought he may be able to outfight Dragon Acno, how he does it doesn't really matter. Could be that he does it by punching, could be he does it with obscure inedible magic. Though honestly if we're going to go ahead and assume that Acno can bypass FH like Natsu, I could just assume that Zeref can bypass immunity like Natsu
Uhuh, well "Base Natsu" was doing as good against FH Zeref as he was against normal Zeref, so unless you're saying FH isn't a power up, "Base Natsu" is basically god. And if you are saying FH isn't a power up, well, I don't know what to tell you, it's contrary to pretty much everything the manga is telling us. Natsu's speech also doesn't signal the beginning of his power up, Natsu can give his speech midway but have accessed it the whole fight.
No one said anything about killing Zeref, Natsu simply needed every bit of power he offered in canon to beat FH Zeref, including "burning hands" power. The "burning Zeref's time" before that wasn't enough to beat him, so having that level of power doesn't really matter.
Sure, that's what I said, Natsu didn't have "burning hands" power when he beat Merc, so his performance doesn't really matter in relation to Acno vs Zeref.
What seems more odd to me is that "burning hands" power barely burns Lucy, yet another reason it's not comparable to Savage Flames.
And sure, it doesn't matter either way, because there is no real way to compare how much power either form had, Mashima made no relation between the two, and it's certainly not any sort of proof that FH Zeref's portrayal as a match for Acno, is so wildly wrong that Zeref can't even take Acno's human form.
August and Irene werent clued in on Zetef's actual plan though. He planned on going back in time and killing Acnologia when he was weak.
I dont think Acnologia can burn FH because he doesnt use fire. I do however believe that Ignia and Igneel could produce flamed as hot as the flames that beat Zeref, and Acnologia can tank their attacks and beat them in combat. As for how Acnologia deals with FH, he just has to decide to eat Zeref's magic.
FH was a power up for Zeref. It gave him the ability to reverse time. It just didnt dramatically increase Zeref's physical strength, or speed. Base Natsu could still trade with him. Acno tiers could run circles around Natsu in h2h if they wanted to.
Lucy wasn't in direct contact with the flames. She hugged Natsu in the back, and the temperauture of his skin burned her. Natsu's hands were burned by the flames he was producing. The area around Natsu's hands were the only places with temperatures hot enough to burn Natsu. Everywhere else was cooler.
August and Irene werent clued in on Zetef's actual plan though. He planned on going back in time and killing Acnologia when he was weak.
I dont think Acnologia can burn FH because he doesnt use fire. I do however believe that Ignia and Igneel could produce flamed as hot as the flames that beat Zeref, and Acnologia can tank their attacks and beat them in combat. As for how Acnologia deals with FH, he just has to decide to eat Zeref's magic.
FH was a power up for Zeref. It gave him the ability to reverse time. It just didnt dramatically increase Zeref's physical strength, or speed. Base Natsu could still trade with him. Acno tiers could run circles around Natsu in h2h if they wanted to.
Lucy wasn't in direct contact with the flames. She hugged Natsu in the back, and the temperauture of his skin burned her. Natsu's hands were burned by the flames he was producing. The area around Natsu's hands were the only places with temperatures hot enough to burn Natsu. Everywhere else was cooler.
Sure, they still thought that he may surpass Acno's strength with FH though.
Eating Zeref's magic deals with some of his attacks sure, that's hardly a win though. All Zeref needs to do is attack physically or use curse or something.
It doesn't just do that though, does it? Throughout the manga, in literally every scenario, gaining extra magic power exponentially increases fighting ability. That didn't suddenly stop for Zeref, in fact Zeref was portrayed as a literal god after he got FH. And I don't mean like an Ikusa god or whatever, I mean he was portrayed as the ultimate being, the pinnacle of magic. To say he didn't get any stronger after getting FH is imo, absolutely ridiculous.
As for Acno tiers running circles around Natsu, normal Natsu, not Savage Natsu, so it kinda means nothing.
All well and good, but still doesn't mean IgniaNatsu's flames were Savage Natsu's, and even if it did, IgniaNatsu didn't use burning hands power against Merc, so his actual performance doesn't really matter when it comes to Human Acno vs Zeref.
Sure, they still thought that he may surpass Acno's strength with FH though.
Eating Zeref's magic deals with some of his attacks sure, that's hardly a win though. All Zeref needs to do is attack physically or use curse or something.
It doesn't just do that though, does it? Throughout the manga, in literally every scenario, gaining extra magic power exponentially increases fighting ability. That didn't suddenly stop for Zeref, in fact Zeref was portrayed as a literal god after he got FH. And I don't mean like an Ikusa god or whatever, I mean he was portrayed as the ultimate being, the pinnacle of magic. To say he didn't get any stronger after getting FH is imo, absolutely ridiculous.
As for Acno tiers running circles around Natsu, normal Natsu, not Savage Natsu, so it kinda means nothing.
All well and good, but still doesn't mean IgniaNatsu's flames were Savage Natsu's, and even if it did, IgniaNatsu didn't use burning hands power against Merc, so his actual performance doesn't really matter when it comes to Human Acno vs Zeref.
They were misinformed. Zeref never planned on facing Acnologia in combat, and ended up losing to Natsu who is weaker than Acno.
Eating Zeref's magic will deal with any of his magical attacks. Zeref's not going to get anywhere trying to hit Acnologia with no magic. Zeref's curse doesn't really pose a threat. Base Natsu dealt with it fine, and it doesn't really get stronger with Fairy Heart.
Fighting ability? Sure. Physical strength? Not necessarily. Natsu has received many power ups, not all of them increase his physical strength. In Zeref's case, Fairy Heart gave him a lot of MP to work with and the ability to reverse time. His physical strength and speed are still very much within the scope of what base Natsu can handle. Natsu didn't use "savage flames" in the panels I posted. That was just base Natsu. It was an FDK Demolition Fist charged with flames of emotion. There's only one specific attack that had "savage flames", and it was the FDK Demolition Fist that Natsu used at the end. I mean forget savage flames, one of the punches that Natsu threw didn't have any flames.
Again, Natsu's hands were fine up until the moment Lucy calmed him down and it's unlikely that the flames got hotter as he calmed down. The flames were probably at their hottest when he used the attack that beat Mercphobia. Dragon Force provided Natsu with dragon scales and tougher physicals, and this prevented Natsu from burning himself. Either that, or the scales just masked the injuries underneath. "Savage flames" is just FDK flames boosted with flames of emotion. Flames of emotion turns emotions into magic power. It stands to reason that anybody with enough MP using fire can achieve the same results if they can match the MP that Natsu is generating with his emotions. I believe that dragons like Igneel and Ignia have the MP supply to naturally use flames on this level.
They were misinformed. Zeref never planned on facing Acnologia in combat, and ended up losing to Natsu who is weaker than Acno.
Eating Zeref's magic will deal with any of his magical attacks. Zeref's not going to get anywhere trying to hit Acnologia with no magic. Zeref's curse doesn't really pose a threat. Base Natsu dealt with it fine, and it doesn't really get stronger with Fairy Heart.
Fighting ability? Sure. Physical strength? Not necessarily. Natsu has received many power ups, not all of them increase his physical strength. In Zeref's case, Fairy Heart gave him a lot of MP to work with and the ability to reverse time. His physical strength and speed are still very much within the scope of what base Natsu can handle. Natsu didn't use "savage flames" in the panels I posted. That was just base Natsu. It was an FDK Demolition Fist charged with flames of emotion. There's only one specific attack that had "savage flames", and it was the FDK Demolition Fist that Natsu used at the end. I mean forget savage flames, one of the punches that Natsu threw didn't have any flames.
Again, Natsu's hands were fine up until the moment Lucy calmed him down and it's unlikely that the flames got hotter as he calmed down. The flames were probably at their hottest when he used the attack that beat Mercphobia. Dragon Force provided Natsu with dragon scales and tougher physicals, and this prevented Natsu from burning himself. Either that, or the scales just masked the injuries underneath. "Savage flames" is just FDK flames boosted with flames of emotion. Flames of emotion turns emotions into magic power. It stands to reason that anybody with enough MP using fire can achieve the same results if they can match the MP that Natsu is generating with his emotions. I believe that dragons like Igneel and Ignia have the MP supply to naturally use flames on this level.
Not really, Eileen was well aware of Zeref's strength, FH's strength and Acno's strength. The fact that Zeref didn't actually plan on fighting him is kind of irrelevent, Eileen and August still thought Zeref might be stronger than Acno with it.
I've seen nothing from Human Acno to suggest Zeref wouldn't be able to beat him with his fists. And Zeref is capable of mixing curse with magic, who knows if Acno is able to eat it or not.
Really? As far as I remember all Natsu's power ups have increased his physical strength. Etherion? Yep? Laxus' magic? Yep. Jellal's magic? Yep. Igneel's magic? Yep Second Origin? Yep. Increased MP through training? Yep. And to begin with physical strength comes from magic power, as you are well aware.
Like I said, Savage Natsu is just what I call the Natsu that was fighting FH Zeref, he was using quote "the greatest power" in that fight, likely the One magic. since he was so clearly stronger than Base, Dragon Force or pretty much any other version of Natsu we've seen bar 7 DS Natsu. That Natsu was doing exactly as well against FH Zeref as Base Natsu was against Base Zeref, your argument here would mean that FH Zeref received no boost to fighting ability at all, which is plain ridiculous. I mean, how would FT have destroyed Face? By reversing time? No. Lets get real, FH is an incredible boost in power, just like 7DS mode or any other power up, one so powerful it boosts preskip FT to Parent Dragon tier or somewhere approaching it. Every boost to MP a character has gotten exponentionally increases fighting ability, every single one, and every time FH is mentioned it is mentioned for it's enormous power. Makarov thinks it may be possible to beat Acno with it, Mavis thinks Zeref was going to use it to beat Acno, August and Eileen think the same and Acno honestly seemed to be entertaining the possibility too. All that portrayal, and there's pretty much no reason not to believe it's at least somewhat true. I'm happy to give Acno the benefit of the doubt in that he wins when he goes all out, as most people are unsure whether Zeref can win, but I simply don't buy that they're all so wildly off that Zeref can't even beat Acno human form, there is simply nothing in Acnologia's performance to suggest it.
No, the flames were probably the hottest when Natsu was talking about destroying the world, it looked like he was on the verge of a breakthrough. As for the scales preventing Natsu from burning, nothing really to suggest this, the scales were still on him when Lucy was hugging him in the "cooling down phase" so there's no reason he would be burnt when the scales left. The burns being underneath doesn't really make sense either, why would the flames just phase through Natsu's scales? As for Ignia and Igneel, maybe.
Not really, Eileen was well aware of Zeref's strength, FH's strength and Acno's strength. The fact that Zeref didn't actually plan on fighting him is kind of irrelevent, Eileen and August still thought Zeref might be stronger than Acno with it.
I've seen nothing from Human Acno to suggest Zeref wouldn't be able to beat him with his fists. And Zeref is capable of mixing curse with magic, who knows if Acno is able to eat it or not.
Really? As far as I remember all Natsu's power ups have increased his physical strength. Etherion? Yep? Laxus' magic? Yep. Jellal's magic? Yep. Igneel's magic? Yep Second Origin? Yep. Increased MP through training? Yep. And to begin with physical strength comes from magic power, as you are well aware.
Like I said, Savage Natsu is just what I call the Natsu that was fighting FH Zeref, he was using quote "the greatest power" in that fight, likely the One magic. since he was so clearly stronger than Base, Dragon Force or pretty much any other version of Natsu we've seen bar 7 DS Natsu. That Natsu was doing exactly as well against FH Zeref as Base Natsu was against Base Zeref, your argument here would mean that FH Zeref received no boost to fighting ability at all, which is plain ridiculous. I mean, how would FT have destroyed Face? By reversing time? No. Lets get real, FH is an incredible boost in power, just like 7DS mode or any other power up, one so powerful it boosts preskip FT to Parent Dragon tier or somewhere approaching it. Every boost to MP a character has gotten exponentionally increases fighting ability, every single one, and every time FH is mentioned it is mentioned for it's enormous power. Makarov thinks it may be possible to beat Acno with it, Mavis thinks Zeref was going to use it to beat Acno, August and Eileen think the same and Acno honestly seemed to be entertaining the possibility too. All that portrayal, and there's pretty much no reason not to believe it's at least somewhat true. I'm happy to give Acno the benefit of the doubt in that he wins when he goes all out, as most people are unsure whether Zeref can win, but I simply don't buy that they're all so wildly off that Zeref can't even beat Acno human form, there is simply nothing in Acnologia's performance to suggest it.
No, the flames were probably the hottest when Natsu was talking about destroying the world, it looked like he was on the verge of a breakthrough. As for the scales preventing Natsu from burning, nothing really to suggest this, the scales were still on him when Lucy was hugging him in the "cooling down phase" so there's no reason he would be burnt when the scales left. The burns being underneath doesn't really make sense either, why would the flames just phase through Natsu's scales? As for Ignia and Igneel, maybe.
They weren't aware of Acnologia's full strength. Nobody was expecting that Acnologia would survive the rift of time, eat it's magic, and smashing his way out of reality. But he did. The fact that Zeref didn't plan on fighting Acnologia directly and then lost to Natsu, makes me not inclined to put him on Acnologia's level.
How is Zeref beating Acnologia with his fist...using no magic? It's one thing if Zeref uses magic to enhance his strength, though Acno would be able to eat that anyways. If he's punching with zero magic, he'd be no different than an average human. Sure, Zeref can mix his curse and magic. But the curse doesn't receive a boost from Fairy Heart, because it's not magic.
That was just base Natsu. There's actually no such thing as "savage flames" Natsu, because savage flames isn't a mode or a new type of fire. What we call "savage flames" is just a Fire Dragon King's Demolition Fist with flames of emotion. This is the only attack that had flames hot enough to burn time itself, Zeref's magic, and Natsu's arms. Some of the punches that Natsu used against Zeref before that didn't even have flames, let alone flames hot enough that Zeref would take notice. We see the very moment Natsu started converting his emotions into power. Everything that happened before is just base Natsu.
Zeref did receive a power-up with Fairy Heart. It allowed him to reverse time. You can even argue that Fairy Heart's magic was stronger than his black magic because it could actually cut Natsu, and technically did more damage. However, Zeref's overall fighting capacity was well within what base Natsu could handle. We simply didn't really see any massive physical strength or speed buffs. Acnologia tiers can hit hard enough to floor base Natsu and more, and move at speed in which Natsu couldn't even perceive. It is possible to beat Acnologia with Fairy Heart. If you do something like hook it up to an etherion and spam it. I'm not arguing against this. If Zeref actually spammed spells on the level of Etherion, it would be a different story. But that's not what Zeref did. The h2h exchanges he had with Natsu weren't on the level of a single etherion.
Natsu's hands weren't being burned when he was talking about destroying the world either. They were actually fine when Lucy first hugged him. It took him a while to realize what was going on, and it was only when he calmed down that we saw the wounds on him. I've offered 2 possibilities for what's going on. One is that the flames were always hot enough to burn Natsu, but the scales simply protected him. When DF faded, the heat managed to burn Natsu. The other is that he was getting burned the whole time, but the scales hid the damage aesthetically. The possibility you're suggesting is that Natsu's flames only got hot enough to burn him right when Lucy calmed him down....and I find this to be unlikely because his flames should have been the hottest when he was defeating Mercphobia. That was when he used the strongest attack. Even if you argue that it was hotter when Natsu was talking about burning the world, that still didn't burn his arms either.
They weren't aware of Acnologia's full strength. Nobody was expecting that Acnologia would survive the rift of time, eat it's magic, and smashing his way out of reality. But he did. The fact that Zeref didn't plan on fighting Acnologia directly and then lost to Natsu, makes me not inclined to put him on Acnologia's level.
How is Zeref beating Acnologia with his fist...using no magic? It's one thing if Zeref uses magic to enhance his strength, though Acno would be able to eat that anyways. If he's punching with zero magic, he'd be no different than an average human. Sure, Zeref can mix his curse and magic. But the curse doesn't receive a boost from Fairy Heart, because it's not magic.
That was just base Natsu. There's actually no such thing as "savage flames" Natsu, because savage flames isn't a mode or a new type of fire. What we call "savage flames" is just a Fire Dragon King's Demolition Fist with flames of emotion. This is the only attack that had flames hot enough to burn time itself, Zeref's magic, and Natsu's arms. Some of the punches that Natsu used against Zeref before that didn't even have flames, let alone flames hot enough that Zeref would take notice. We see the very moment Natsu started converting his emotions into power. Everything that happened before is just base Natsu.
Zeref did receive a power-up with Fairy Heart. It allowed him to reverse time. You can even argue that Fairy Heart's magic was stronger than his black magic because it could actually cut Natsu, and technically did more damage. However, Zeref's overall fighting capacity was well within what base Natsu could handle. We simply didn't really see any massive physical strength or speed buffs. Acnologia tiers can hit hard enough to floor base Natsu and more, and move at speed in which Natsu couldn't even perceive. It is possible to beat Acnologia with Fairy Heart. If you do something like hook it up to an etherion and spam it. I'm not arguing against this. If Zeref actually spammed spells on the level of Etherion, it would be a different story. But that's not what Zeref did. The h2h exchanges he had with Natsu weren't on the level of a single etherion.
Natsu's hands weren't being burned when he was talking about destroying the world either. They were actually fine when Lucy first hugged him. It took him a while to realize what was going on, and it was only when he calmed down that we saw the wounds on him. I've offered 2 possibilities for what's going on. One is that the flames were always hot enough to burn Natsu, but the scales simply protected him. When DF faded, the heat managed to burn Natsu. The other is that he was getting burned the whole time, but the scales hid the damage aesthetically. The possibility you're suggesting is that Natsu's flames only got hot enough to burn him right when Lucy calmed him down....and I find this to be unlikely because his flames should have been the hottest when he was defeating Mercphobia. That was when he used the strongest attack. Even if you argue that it was hotter when Natsu was talking about burning the world, that still didn't burn his arms either.
None of them thought it would kill Acno other than Anna and she's arguably much less informed than Eileen, even still, that's Dragon Acno, I've already said I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt over FH Zeref.
The reason Zeref didn't want to fight Acno wasn't because he thought he would lose, Zeref wanted a new life, to be with Natsu, to not be an immortal anymore. Acnologia was just a sideshow, trivial to him, he says as much himself.
Punching a hole through his chest like he did Natsu? And no, punching without magic doesn't make you average human strength, just having enormous magic lets you hit like a truck. Igneel for example hits harder than any dragon his size other than Acno, no magic.
Like I said, I'm just calling that Natsu "savage Natsu", I'm aware its not an actual mode. As for some punches not having flames, yeah, and they still hurt Zeref more than DF Demolition Fist. And no, we hear from Natsu earlier in the fight that he's using the "greatest power" to beat Zeref, which as we know is love aka The One magic.
I'll say again, Zeref doesn't JUST receive the ability to reverse time, he receives a colossal boost to his fighting ability like every other character who has ever gotten a power up in the manga, only significantly better. Zeref with FH hits significantly harder, is faster, is more durable, just like anyone else who gets a power up, because MP is the primary factor that decides all that shit in the first place as you well know. What you're arguing right now is basically saying "yeah, Natsu got the ability to use lightning when he got Laxus' mp, but other than that he's just Base Natsu level." or "yeah, Etherion increases Natsu's physical strength, but his fire is just Base Natsu level." Zeref didn't JUST get the ability to reverse time, he got a colossal boost to MP and an entirely new mode, his fighting ability is leagues above what it was, and you know this, you were using it as an argument for why the Parent Dragons are strong.
I'm aware, just saying that that was likely Natsu's hottest point.
You're options are all well and good, the problem is neither proves he used them on Merc, not that using it on Merc means anything in the first place
None of them thought it would kill Acno other than Anna and she's arguably much less informed than Eileen, even still, that's Dragon Acno, I've already said I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt over FH Zeref.
The reason Zeref didn't want to fight Acno wasn't because he thought he would lose, Zeref wanted a new life, to be with Natsu, to not be an immortal anymore. Acnologia was just a sideshow, trivial to him, he says as much himself.
Punching a hole through his chest like he did Natsu? And no, punching without magic doesn't make you average human strength, just having enormous magic lets you hit like a truck. Igneel for example hits harder than any dragon his size other than Acno, no magic.
Like I said, I'm just calling that Natsu "savage Natsu", I'm aware its not an actual mode. As for some punches not having flames, yeah, and they still hurt Zeref more than DF Demolition Fist. And no, we hear from Natsu earlier in the fight that he's using the "greatest power" to beat Zeref, which as we know is love aka The One magic.
I'll say again, Zeref doesn't JUST receive the ability to reverse time, he receives a colossal boost to his fighting ability like every other character who has ever gotten a power up in the manga, only significantly better. Zeref with FH hits significantly harder, is faster, is more durable, just like anyone else who gets a power up, because MP is the primary factor that decides all that shit in the first place as you well know. What you're arguing right now is basically saying "yeah, Natsu got the ability to use lightning when he got Laxus' mp, but other than that he's just Base Natsu level." or "yeah, Etherion increases Natsu's physical strength, but his fire is just Base Natsu level." Zeref didn't JUST get the ability to reverse time, he got a colossal boost to MP and an entirely new mode, his fighting ability is leagues above what it was, and you know this, you were using it as an argument for why the Parent Dragons are strong.
I'm aware, just saying that that was likely Natsu's hottest point.
You're options are all well and good, the problem is neither proves he used them on Merc, not that using it on Merc means anything in the first place
The point is that nobody really knew how strong Acnologia was. They didn't even realize that magic wouldn't work on him until he revealed it against Jellal, Wendy, and Erza.
Natsu was completely exhausted when Zeref punched a hole through his chest. When they later exchanged, Zeref couldn't just stab him again because base Natsu matched him in CQC. Besides punching a hole through Natsu isn't really an Acno-tier feat. Animus could do it, and Acnologia can slaughter dozens of dragons on Animus' level.
Punching without magic does just make you an average human. Igneel without magic would only hit as hard as a dragon without magic.
Of course Zeref didn't just receive the ability to reverse time. He received an infinite amount of MP to work with. And sure, it may even have increased Zeref's stats. Nonetheless, base Natsu was able to land a bunch of hits on him and tank one of his attacks....So Zeref's speed and physical strength were still well within the confines of what base Natsu could handle. Why exactly are you calling that version of Natsu "savage Natsu"? He had yet to give the whole speech about how he was turning the power of the guild to fuel his flames. His FT mark didn't glow. His flames weren't really hot. For all practical purposes, that was just base Natsu.
I mean....Kinda? Assuming LFD and Etherion had relatively equal amounts of MP, I'm perfectly fine with saying that Dragon Force improved physical strength more, and that LFD gave Natsu stronger energy blasts. The power-ups manifested in different ways. Looking at the way Natsu fought Jellal, none of his attacks seem to have very much fire. There's even a point where it looks like Natsu just slams Jellal through the tower with no fire. And obviously LFD roar was far stronger than the roar we saw from DF Natsu against Zero.
See I believe that the flames were the hottest when they beat Merc because that's the strongest attack we've seen from them. Even if they weren't, they would have been hotter than when Lucy calmed him down. If the flames were hot enough to burn Natsu when he was calm, then it would have been hot enough to burn Natsu when he was amped up with a finisher to beat Mercphobia.
The point is that nobody really knew how strong Acnologia was. They didn't even realize that magic wouldn't work on him until he revealed it against Jellal, Wendy, and Erza.
Natsu was completely exhausted when Zeref punched a hole through his chest. When they later exchanged, Zeref couldn't just stab him again because base Natsu matched him in CQC. Besides punching a hole through Natsu isn't really an Acno-tier feat. Animus could do it, and Acnologia can slaughter dozens of dragons on Animus' level.
Punching without magic does just make you an average human. Igneel without magic would only hit as hard as a dragon without magic.
Of course Zeref didn't just receive the ability to reverse time. He received an infinite amount of MP to work with. And sure, it may even have increased Zeref's stats. Nonetheless, base Natsu was able to land a bunch of hits on him and tank one of his attacks....So Zeref's speed and physical strength were still well within the confines of what base Natsu could handle. Why exactly are you calling that version of Natsu "savage Natsu"? He had yet to give the whole speech about how he was turning the power of the guild to fuel his flames. His FT mark didn't glow. His flames weren't really hot. For all practical purposes, that was just base Natsu.
I mean....Kinda? Assuming LFD and Etherion had relatively equal amounts of MP, I'm perfectly fine with saying that Dragon Force improved physical strength more, and that LFD gave Natsu stronger energy blasts. The power-ups manifested in different ways. Looking at the way Natsu fought Jellal, none of his attacks seem to have very much fire. There's even a point where it looks like Natsu just slams Jellal through the tower with no fire. And obviously LFD roar was far stronger than the roar we saw from DF Natsu against Zero.
See I believe that the flames were the hottest when they beat Merc because that's the strongest attack we've seen from them. Even if they weren't, they would have been hotter than when Lucy calmed him down. If the flames were hot enough to burn Natsu when he was calm, then it would have been hot enough to burn Natsu when he was amped up with a finisher to beat Mercphobia.
Again, Dragon Acno, and that was from FT's perspective, not Team Zeref's,
Sure, but Base Natsu's strength could have been literally anything at that point, he could've been stronger than RoT Acno.
Uh... ok? Whatever, do you honestly not get what I mean with this argument? Igneel without any visible magic, tore off Acno's arm, it was a purely physical attack. Was there magic in it? Maybe, but it's not something Acno can eat or is immune to, Zeref can win by attacking the same way, purely physical, maybe with some magic behind the scenes. Does he have the feats for it? Not really, does he have the portrayal? Yeah. and it's not like Human Acno has the feats for it either
I'm calling him Savage Natsu to differentiate him from Base Natsu, because he is leagues upon leagues more powerful, even before burning time, he was performing better than Dragon Force with a single fireless punch. He was doing as well if not better against FH Zeref than he was against Base Zeref, it is impossible for "Savage" Natsu to be the same as Base Natsu, unless FH Zeref is the same as Base Zeref, that's why I call him Savage Natsu. As for the speech, he gave it the moment he woke up, he was using The One magic the moment he re-engaged FH Zeref, the guild mark glowing and all that was just him going even further.
Except that's not what you're saying, you're saying Zeref's fighting ability was effectively the same as it was in Base, because Base Natsu was keeping up with him just as well as before. Natsu against Hades went from barely being able to land a hit as a team, to absolutely dominating Hades 1v1, it wasn't just the follow up lightning attacks that made Natsu better, literally everything about him was better, from his strength snapping the chains that tossed around giant Makarov, to his speed landing attacks, to the damage he could do with his attacks. And DF Natsu boosted his fire from trash Zero could casually shrug off, to capable of burning through Zero's strongest attack.
Sure, but that still doesn't mean he used it on Merc though, unless your theory about Demo Fist being the cause of burnt hands is true. And even still, that doesn't put Ignia Natsu on Savage Natsu's level, because like I said, both meeting a threshold doesn't mean they have equal power.
This is my take on FH Zeref and Acnologia. Let me know what you guys think.
What has FH Zeref done that puts him on Acno level? That he managed to "kill" Natsu after he completely blew off his magic power and was exhausted? This is way less impressive than weakened Animus "killing" Natsu, while he was very much energetic. Human Acno managed to one shot full power Animus back in the days, by the way.
After Natsu got revived, he managed to hold his own against FH Zeref BEFORE "savage flames" showed up. Sure, I'll agree that we can't claim this is regular/base Natsu, since Natsu was amped on POF this time around. But, Natsu used savage flames only in the final attack, everything up until then was regular POF for Natsu.
As for dura/defence. Animus tanked multiple attacks from one of Natsu's strongest DF. And after all that onslaught, he still was in one piece. FH Zeref got vapourized by DF Natsu's (a weaker version compared to what Animus faced) full power attack.
Now, if human Acno can one shot Animus. And Animus can take full onslaught from one of Natsu's strongest DF while being in one piece, while FH Zeref is vapourized by full power attack of a weaker DF Natsu, what does it say about Zeref? It suggests to me that, if Zeref wasn't immortal, time magic or FH or not, he would've died right there. It's immortality combined with FH & time magic, that allowed him to revive right afterwards.
I see claims that savage flames Natsu is > DF Natsu, including the Ignia/AF/Igneel DF mode and the one used against Merc. This isn't true.
Savage flames Natsu has flames HOTTER than regular DF Natsu, though if we're speaking of special cases of DF (like ones used against Animus, Merc and Aldoron) that's not necessarily true either (the one against Ignia for eg, burned Natsu's skin the same way savage flames burned Natsu's skin, but this was an year later and hence more impressive).
What savage flames did was, burn FH Zeref's time magic, so that he couldn't just turn back his own time like he did earlier against DF. This is because of the nature of that magic and heat, rather than pure attack power.
Savage Flames Natsu's full power attack only did enough damage to knock out Zeref. Injure him to the point he couldn't get up. But he was still in one piece. DF Natsu's full power attack completely vapourized FH Zeref. This tells us that, on pure attack power, regular DF > savage flames Natsu.
Now, I do agree that FH does make Zeref jump up by tiers. Fairy Heart's effect on Zeref can be sort of compared to Grimoire Heart's effect on Hades. Grimoire Heart was Hade recreating Fairy Heart, since he's the one who created FH to begin with. GH, like FH, is a practically infinite supply of magic power, tho GH needs life support to be kept working.
Like FH allowed Zeref to access time lapse, GH allowed Hades to access devil's eye. Upon activating GH/Devil's eye, FT members saw Hade's MP jumping up tiers. We can expect the same for Zeref as well. Since base Zeref was easily overwhelming regular/base Natsu; and regular/base Nastu dealing with FH Zeref in combat pretty fine post revival, this does mean that the POF he was on after revival was quite significant.
If we're talking about portrayal, yes, there are claims in the manga which suggests he can be a threat to Acnologia. Other than confirmed God tiers (Igneel, God dragons), FH Zeref is the only character to even remotely have any portrayal of being a threat to Acnologia. But those are from Spriggans, and it was more of a hope than expectation. And like Axiomous said, none of the Spriggans knew that much about Acnologia - that he was the magic dragon, can eat all magic and was near immune to magic. I'm not saying to ignore this portrayal completely, but it is to be taken with a grain of salt. Combining it with FH Zeref's feats, I see no reason why Acno wouldn't stomp in this fight,
Natsu was able to deal with Zeref's time reverse shenanigans by burning his time magic. Acnologia can accomplish the same by eating his time magic. Once time magic is out of the picture, FH Zeref is nothing to Acno. Acno can just knock out Zeref quite easily, pretty sure Acno can casually create attacks stronger than regular DF Natsu's full power.
This is my take on FH Zeref and Acnologia. Let me know what you guys think.
What has FH Zeref done that puts him on Acno level? That he managed to "kill" Natsu after he completely blew off his magic power and was exhausted? This is way less impressive than weakened Animus "killing" Natsu, while he was very much energetic. Human Acno managed to one shot full power Animus back in the days, by the way.
After Natsu got revived, he managed to hold his own against FH Zeref BEFORE "savage flames" showed up. Sure, I'll agree that we can't claim this is regular/base Natsu, since Natsu was amped on POF this time around. But, Natsu used savage flames only in the final attack, everything up until then was regular POF for Natsu.
As for dura/defence. Animus tanked multiple attacks from one of Natsu's strongest DF. And after all that onslaught, he still was in one piece. FH Zeref got vapourized by DF Natsu's (a weaker version compared to what Animus faced) full power attack.
Now, if human Acno can one shot Animus. And Animus can take full onslaught from one of Natsu's strongest DF while being in one piece, while FH Zeref is vapourized by full power attack of a weaker DF Natsu, what does it say about Zeref? It suggests to me that, if Zeref wasn't immortal, time magic or FH or not, he would've died right there. It's immortality combined with FH & time magic, that allowed him to revive right afterwards.
I see claims that savage flames Natsu is > DF Natsu, including the Ignia/AF/Igneel DF mode and the one used against Merc. This isn't true.
Savage flames Natsu has flames HOTTER than regular DF Natsu, though if we're speaking of special cases of DF (like ones used against Animus, Merc and Aldoron) that's not necessarily true either (the one against Ignia for eg, burned Natsu's skin the same way savage flames burned Natsu's skin, but this was an year later and hence more impressive).
What savage flames did was, burn FH Zeref's time magic, so that he couldn't just turn back his own time like he did earlier against DF. This is because of the nature of that magic and heat, rather than pure attack power.
Savage Flames Natsu's full power attack only did enough damage to knock out Zeref. Injure him to the point he couldn't get up. But he was still in one piece. DF Natsu's full power attack completely vapourized FH Zeref. This tells us that, on pure attack power, regular DF > savage flames Natsu.
Now, I do agree that FH does make Zeref jump up by tiers. Fairy Heart's effect on Zeref can be sort of compared to Grimoire Heart's effect on Hades. Grimoire Heart was Hade recreating Fairy Heart, since he's the one who created FH to begin with. GH, like FH, is a practically infinite supply of magic power, tho GH needs life support to be kept working.
Like FH allowed Zeref to access time lapse, GH allowed Hades to access devil's eye. Upon activating GH/Devil's eye, FT members saw Hade's MP jumping up tiers. We can expect the same for Zeref as well. Since base Zeref was easily overwhelming regular/base Natsu; and regular/base Nastu dealing with FH Zeref in combat pretty fine post revival, this does mean that the POF he was on after revival was quite significant.
If we're talking about portrayal, yes, there are claims in the manga which suggests he can be a threat to Acnologia. Other than confirmed God tiers (Igneel, God dragons), FH Zeref is the only character to even remotely have any portrayal of being a threat to Acnologia. But those are from Spriggans, and it was more of a hope than expectation. And like Axiomous said, none of the Spriggans knew that much about Acnologia - that he was the magic dragon, can eat all magic and was near immune to magic. I'm not saying to ignore this portrayal completely, but it is to be taken with a grain of salt. Combining it with FH Zeref's feats, I see no reason why Acno wouldn't stomp in this fight,
Natsu was able to deal with Zeref's time reverse shenanigans by burning his time magic. Acnologia can accomplish the same by eating his time magic. Once time magic is out of the picture, FH Zeref is nothing to Acno. Acno can just knock out Zeref quite easily, pretty sure Acno can casually create attacks stronger than regular DF Natsu's full power.
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