Voting Round 2 Alucard vs. Satoru Gojo

[Equaling Heaven]

If he didn't intend then it's not really evidence for it's use in this fight

I'm happy to be spoiled, I dunno if I'll ever get around to reading it

Please post anything that you believe might be useful in this fight

Okay. I asked because I don't have the itention to ruin your experience, but here we go.

What happened in shibuya's station was: the cursed spirits needed to stall Gojo for 20 minutes so pseudo-Get had enough time to prepare the prison box/realm. And they followed the plan by attracting him there to a 4 (5 if you count pseudo-Geto) vs 1 fight that they couldn't win because Gojo is totally unreachable. You could say he's literally on another dimension. Not even a technique that was created with the specific intention to bypass cursed techs (domain amplification) worked on him - it did at first because he was unware of the fact the cursed spirits could use curse-users techniques, but he simply adjusted by fortying and expanding the limitless range. But this one wasn't the only method the cursed spirits had. They flooded the place with civilians so Gojo couldn't simply attack without killing innocent people. This forced him into a defensive mode. Had he used his long scale attacks he would kill everyone around. His domain included, even jogo who is a very strong cursed spirit who could spar with sukuna said that if Gojo used his domain he could kill everyone around. The countermeassure to this countermeassure was activating a domain for 0.2 seconds, he accepeted the fact that he couldn't save everyone and was willing to sacrifice a few lives (on contrary of what the spirits were thinking, which was "gojo is ok if we are killing a few civilians as it is a combat casuality, but he himself wouldn't kill people"). During these less than 300 seconds the spirits were stunned alongside the humans, but they could snap out of it at any moment. What he wanted was to kill off the transfigured humans, a product of one of the enemies technique, so he could clean up the place and proceed with the exorcism, a promise he made to the civilians he couldn't save. Thing is, when he was about to fight the curses, pseudo-Geto appeared and sealed him with a very special condition. Something that Alucard doesn't have acess to. Sorry for the long ass text, but it pretty much sumarize why he used the domain in a restrictive way. Not because he couldn't kill high level enemies at one go, it was because if he did so he would kill innocent civilians around him.

 

[z.5]

Okay. I asked because I don't have the itention to ruin your experience, but here we go

Much appreciated - but I already have so many things on my list to read [that I don't have time for], that adding any more seems rather foolish

(domain amplification)

This?

he simply adjusted by fortying and expanding the limitless range

... and people have difficulty understanding Alucard's abilities
haha

How does extending an 'infinite' distance help?!?
Infinity + more = infinity, surely?


The rest of what you wrote sounds to be what Nii showed me before (I wasn't sure on the lengths that he could maintain his mind-fuck technique for, so Nii kindly provided info) - I'm still not sure how causing Alucard to be catatonic (for however long) actually helps Gojo permanently destroy Alucard - there doesn't seem to be anything in Gojo's repertoire capable of killing an immortal, omnipresent being

Sorry for the long ass text

No need for apologies for long posts [check out what I've been doing in this whole thread]

 

[Jammin]

Is the condition of victory killing the oppnenet? I was assuming it was just defeat the opponent. In the case of Gojo mental destruction would be his best weapon. And mental destruction would be a victory for Gojo in my book.

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Adding to all this difficulty is that both Gojo and Alucard's abilities are very unclear where it pertains to "time".

Alucard is said to be omnipresent. But that's only ever seen applying to space. Not time. Theoretically something omnipresent would exist not only everywhere but also at everytime. Alucard does not do this as far as I'm aware. He's just "Creepy vampire in the shadows, all of them.".

Gojo's infinity is just super vague. A layer of infinity between him and his opponent. But is this just space or is it time as well? This effects how they would interact with Alucard's abilities. Is it just a physical separation. Is there a more dimensional aspect to it? As far as I know that's never clarified. Just that there is an infinity between him and his opponent.

 

[cracker]

Much appreciated - but I already have so many things on my list to read [that I don't have time for], that adding any more seems rather foolish


This?


... and people have difficulty understanding Alucard's abilities
haha

How does extending an 'infinite' distance help?!?
Infinity + more = infinity, surely?


The rest of what you wrote sounds to be what Nii showed me before (I wasn't sure on the lengths that he could maintain his mind-fuck technique for, so Nii kindly provided info) - I'm still not sure how causing Alucard to be catatonic (for however long) actually helps Gojo permanently destroy Alucard - there doesn't seem to be anything in Gojo's repertoire capable of killing an immortal, omnipresent being


No need for apologies for long posts [check out what I've been doing in this whole thread]

There in lives the biggest problem, even for the sake of argument we say Gojo abilities hit. He has displayed nothing in his arsenal at this point that shows he would able to defeat an immortal being. A being such as Alucard would not have no curse energy, the domain would not render him unconscious and even if did, so what? Gojo can't kill him. Based on what we saw in the manga, the Cat is able to observe himself after death thus is able to continue existing.

Is the condition of victory killing the oppnenet? I was assuming it was just defeat the opponent. In the case of Gojo mental destruction would be his best weapon. And mental destruction would be a victory for Gojo in my book.

----------------------------------

Adding to all this difficulty is that both Gojo and Alucard's abilities are very unclear where it pertains to "time".

Alucard is said to be omnipresent. But that's only ever seen applying to space. Not time. Theoretically something omnipresent would exist not only everywhere but also at everytime. Alucard does not do this as far as I'm aware. He's just "Creepy vampire in the shadows, all of them.".

Gojo's infinity is just super vague. A layer of infinity between him and his opponent. But is this just space or is it time as well? This effects how they would interact with Alucard's abilities. Is it just a physical separation. Is there a more dimensional aspect to it? As far as I know that's never clarified. Just that there is an infinity between him and his opponent.

LOL Alucard wins because Gojo is ultimately mortal, even if someone suggests a stalemate. He (Gojo) cannot fight indefinitely due to needing food, water, sleep or etc. He'd dead in 3 days.

 

[z.5]

Alucard is said to be omnipresent. But that's only ever seen applying to space. Not time. Theoretically something omnipresent would exist not only everywhere but also at everytime. Alucard does not do this as far as I'm aware. He's just "Creepy vampire in the shadows, all of them."

That's by the laws of physics as we know them
... and we know they are already broken by Alucard's abilities - he is certainly not omnipresent in time - it takes him a long time to fix/find/'whatever-the-fuck-he-does' himself

In the Hellsing universe space-time is not a thing - Hirano is certainly not a physicist


So, for his power to work as it does, the two need to be separate entities in that universe

If you're trying to judge the limits/qualities of the ability based on knowledge of real world physics then you're going to end up with the wrong answer/not understand the technique - all you are doing is wasting your precious [or not?] time

 

[Equaling Heaven]

Much appreciated - but I already have so many things on my list to read [that I don't have time for], that adding any more seems rather foolish


This?


... and people have difficulty understanding Alucard's abilities
haha

How does extending an 'infinite' distance help?!?
Infinity + more = infinity, surely?


The rest of what you wrote sounds to be what Nii showed me before (I wasn't sure on the lengths that he could maintain his mind-fuck technique for, so Nii kindly provided info) - I'm still not sure how causing Alucard to be catatonic (for however long) actually helps Gojo permanently destroy Alucard - there doesn't seem to be anything in Gojo's repertoire capable of killing an immortal, omnipresent being


No need for apologies for long posts [check out what I've been doing in this whole thread]

Feel free to engage when you like. There's a small thread about JJK in this forum with people providing a very warm welcome.

Yes, this technique indeed.
My bet is that he simply kept expanding the infinity range in a sense that... Hm... Let's imagine there's a layer of infinity that he adjusted like he always do (based upon mass, speed, and danger ratings). Thing is I think he wasn't expecting the cursed spirits to be using a technique that nullify cursed techniques. The way he 'fortified' his infinity, as goofy as it sound, might've been to keep adding layers after the first one of the technique was destroyed. And it happens passively with almost zero energy cost, as stated by another character.

My bet is that purple might do the trick. The effect of purple is to combine both repel and attraction on top of the infinity to create an 'imaginary force' potent enough to distort the fabric of reality and erase anything it touchs. Alucard may counter it if he doesn't get hit enterily, tho, since he can regenerate just like a cursed spirit would. Otherwise, he would be erased. My assumption is based on the fact that he have to think to exist or by at some place/point/everywhere. Something that is deleted completely out of existence can't think, right? This is my bet, tho. Correct me if I am wrong.

Spoiler

As for Alucard appearing next to him because he's everywhere, please do take into consideration that the limitless boundary happens automatically based on the 3 elements I stated up above. On top of that, not only Gojo is pretty fast but he can also teleport and fly. Blitzing him won't be that easy.

 

[z.5]

Something that is deleted completely out of existence can't think, right? This is my bet, tho. Correct me if I am wrong

See... if I hadn't read the manga, I'd say you must be right - as otherwise it makes no sense, right?

But... against all rational thinking...

the manga does say you are wrong
Alucard ceases to exist (being completely deleted from existence), then he somehow comes back again (yes, that 'somehow' is clearly explained in the manga - but, that doesn't mean that it makes any sense [at all] as to how it's at all possible in the first place)

Here's the clips from the series for you

Spoiler: Alucard becoming "not alive, nor dead, not even undead... [but] abstraction"

Spoiler: Alucard returning from being 'an abstraction'

As for Alucard appearing next to him because he's everywhere, please do take into consideration that the limitless boundary happens automatically based on the 3 elements I stated up above

I'm afraid that I don't see how a boundary of any size - even 'limitless' - makes any difference
Everywhere is everywhere - no matter how infinite the gap would be to anyone else

On top of that, not only Gojo is pretty fast but he can also teleport and fly. Blitzing him won't be that easy

Speed is utterly irrelevant - if Alucard can just be the other side of an infinite gap (as he can be literally anywhere), then speed is not any defence at all
(omnipresence > infinite gap > [infinitely times greater than] any speed feats)

 

[Equaling Heaven]

I remember these scenes and the manga too, I just wasn't sure that if he could be erased. Guess he can but he'll simply spawn back. My point was that Purple distorts both space and time, and it's also an imaginary mass.

Spoiler: Infinity

The thing is that he have to appear/be somewhere and that's the moment Infinity will kick in. How will he bypass the limitless layer? He wouldn't be able to touch or reach him if you take into account what I said earlier about Gojo just fortying his infinity layer. The fact that it's an automatic technique doesn't mean he can't manually operate it. Like the image above, just like Schrodinger-Alucard himself too, infinity is something that is already there.

 

[z.5]

The thing is that he have to appear/be somewhere and that's the moment Infinity will kick in. How will he bypass the limitless layer? He wouldn't be able to touch or reach him if you take into account what I said earlier about Gojo just fortying his infinity layer. The fact that it's an automatic technique doesn't mean he can't manually operate it. Like the image above, just like Schrodinger-Alucard himself too, infinity is something that is already there.

It's literal definition of the words that explain how he bypasses it

It's the same as the diagram that I made before

Spoiler: to highlight how omnipresence beats any infinite distances

Alucard doesn't have to travel any distance - he exists everywhere along (and past) that [infinite] distance

I don't think that 'fortifying' makes any difference whatsoever - if Alucard wasn't everywhere, then the basic 'infinity' would already be enough


tbh, I think I'm done with that argument - as far as I see it:

• If you can accept what the manga says about Alucard being omnipresent and you can accept what omnipresence actually means, then there is nothing to argue about/discuss
• If you can't, then I'm not sure I can find any other ways to explain my point - it's unlikely that I'll be able to convince you/bring you around to my way of thinking, so I'd rather not have to keep on searching for novel ways to write/explain/argue it

I'd much rather discuss the mind-fuck technique/other things, as (as far as I'm concerned) there are actual arguments to be made/discussions to be had, for either side, with those

 

[Equaling Heaven]

My entire problem with it is that in one instance he's said to be erased from existence - when he actually became an imaginary number, right? The major even say in the next panel that he's not alive, neither dead (but also says that he's anywhere).
But then in some place he was playing PUBG agsint every three million plus souls who resided in his body through out absorption.

And you guys keep talking like his ability is automatic like gojo's, which isn't. He have to think about a place to be there, he have to think about himself to exist. How would one think clearly when a flood of information is delugin your mind? It's not possible. IV just doesn't stun, it floods your mind with everything and nothing at the same time.

"This presents the target with limitless information, forcing them to see and feel everything while seeing and feeling nothing at the exact same time. This phenomenon paralyzes the target with infinite knowledge, causing them to die slowly. Only the caster and anyone they are physically touching are free from the void's effects."

The only reason Jogo - the cursed spirit I mentioned earlier who said that if Gojo wished to use his domain he could kill anyone nearby - didn't died the two times he was affect by this ability was:

a) Gojo had questions for him.
b) the second time he was affected, it was a small scale projection only used to stun, not to perma-trap.

Spoiler

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 8, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 8, 2021 ---

And I feel you, this is tiresome. I am by no means ignoring what you're saying on the thread, it's just that imho Alucard finally found a human being who can kill him.

I'll leave it up to everyone else now, and the voters.

 

[z.5]

My entire problem with it is that in one instance he's said to be erased from existence - when he actually became an imaginary number, right? The major even say in the next panel that he's not alive, neither dead (but also says that he's anywhere).
But then in some place he was playing PUBG agsint every three million plus souls who resided in his body through out absorption.

Yeah, as I said, it's nonsense

How can Alucard not be anywhere, yet still be somewhere?!?
It's the whole 'God making a stone so large that he can't physically lift it'


Unfortunately, it's what's clearly shown in the manga and so we just have to accept that it is how it is...

And you guys keep talking like his ability is automatic like gojo's, which isn't.

His ability is automatic - if it weren't then the Major's plan to have Schrödinger lose himself in a sea of souls would not work

Alucard would not use the ability, if it were a choice

As soon as Schrödinger was absorbed the power became Alucard's to deal with

Another example? Schrödinger wouldn't have been able to come back to life after having his head (and brain) literally exploded. He wouldn't be able to perceive himself being anywhere else, not without a brain...

He have to think about a place to be there, he have to think about himself to exist. How would one think clearly when a flood of information is delugin your mind? It's not possible. IV just doesn't stun, it floods your mind with everything and nothing at the same time

Alucard just has to perceive himself being somewhere else, that's not really something that requires much conscious thought

However, that said, I did say [many times] that this was arguable and something that I didn't dismiss as impossible

My argument lay with:
If Alucard did get trapped in it, I couldn't see how it would permanently end the fight

"Only the caster and anyone they are physically touching are free from the void's effects."

I think this line is a big issue for Gojo
If Alucard touches him, Gojo can't trap Alucard in this technique


Please don't misunderstand, I'm trying to be as fair as I can
As I don't know Gojo, I've only got the wiki and what you guys have to say to go on

I've tried to take everything you guys say as fact (within reason)

• You say Gojo can make infinite distances - sure
• You say Gojo can force people to receive infinite amounts of information - why not?
• Nii says that Gojo can activate these things instantly - you've got it!

If I didn't, how could I try to argue around his powers?

I've also, to the best of my abilities, tried to be fair with what I perceive to be Alucard's powers and limits

• Can he suck blood out of someone from a distance? - Never seen, won't claim
• Could he appear within someone and explode out of them (ye olde Antman -> Thanos' butt technique) - again, not seen, not a valid argument
• Is Alucard omnipresent in both time and space - absolutely not, as clearly shown in the manga

I understand that Schrödinger's powers are a huge pain to comprehend, so I've tried to supply both manga pages and anime clips to help further my point

So, if you truly think I am trying to 'do Gojo dirty' and 'play his abilities down' to squeak a victory for Alucard, I can only try to assure you that this is certainly not my intention

I've just taken the powers as shown/described and found that they don't appear to be enough to beat Alucard - nor do they appear, to me, to be as insurmountable as you claim

 

[Equaling Heaven]

(...) So, if you truly think I am trying to 'do Gojo dirty' and 'play his abilities down' to squeak a victory for Alucard,

This never crossed my mind, rest assured.
And again, I'm not ignoring your points, I just said last reply would be de facto my last one. Not that I see anyone here as an enemy, but there's one interesting quote I like:

"Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies. It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us. Both sides blame one another. There's no good or bad side. Just two sides holding different views."

 

[cracker]

Similar to Pandora the Omnipresence can occur when he is dead or erased. That's the whole reason he came back, it's also the reason the Cat brought himself back from death. You know, after he was killed.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 8, 2021, Original Post Date: Apr 8, 2021 ---

Yeah, as I said, it's nonsense

How can Alucard not be anywhere, yet still be somewhere?!?
It's the whole 'God making a stone so large that he can't physically lift it'


Unfortunately, it's what's clearly shown in the manga and so we just have to accept that it is how it is...


His ability is automatic - if it weren't then the Major's plan to have Schrödinger lose himself in a sea of souls would not work

Alucard would not use the ability, if it were a choice

As soon as Schrödinger was absorbed the power became Alucard's to deal with

Another example? Schrödinger wouldn't have been able to come back to life after having his head (and brain) literally exploded. He wouldn't be able to perceive himself being anywhere else, not without a brain...


Alucard just has to perceive himself being somewhere else, that's not really something that requires much conscious thought

However, that said, I did say [many times] that this was arguable and something that I didn't dismiss as impossible

My argument lay with:
If Alucard did get trapped in it, I couldn't see how it would permanently end the fight


I think this line is a big issue for Gojo
If Alucard touches him, Gojo can't trap Alucard in this technique


Please don't misunderstand, I'm trying to be as fair as I can
As I don't know Gojo, I've only got the wiki and what you guys have to say to go on

I've tried to take everything you guys say as fact (within reason)

• You say Gojo can make infinite distances - sure
• You say Gojo can force people to receive infinite amounts of information - why not?
• Nii says that Gojo can activate these things instantly - you've got it!

If I didn't, how could I try to argue around his powers?

I've also, to the best of my abilities, tried to be fair with what I perceive to be Alucard's powers and limits

• Can he suck blood out of someone from a distance? - Never seen, won't claim
• Could he appear within someone and explode out of them (ye olde Antman -> Thanos' butt technique) - again, not seen, not a valid argument
• Is Alucard omnipresent in both time and space - absolutely not, as clearly shown in the manga

I understand that Schrödinger's powers are a huge pain to comprehend, so I've tried to supply both manga pages and anime clips to help further my point

So, if you truly think I am trying to 'do Gojo dirty' and 'play his abilities down' to squeak a victory for Alucard, I can only try to assure you that this is certainly not my intention

I've just taken the powers as shown/described and found that they don't appear to be enough to beat Alucard - nor do they appear, to me, to be as insurmountable as you claim

A little more clarity on Infinity. Gojo isn't creating an infinite space he's actually slowing down time to such a point that you can't come (never?) in contact with him. The closer you get the more it slows down. It's a bit like Barragon from Bleach, in fact I'd guess it was probably inspired a bit by him. Gege is a huge Bleach fan.

 

[Equaling Heaven]

You're right about being a 'slow down', but it isn't time manipulation. I'm lazy rn so I'll get it from the wiki this time.

Spoiler: Limitless

Limitless (無下限 Mukagen?) is an inherited technique passed down within the Gojo Family. This technique brings the concept of "Infinity" into reality, allowing the user to manipulate and distort space at will.

-

Neutral Limitless: Infinity

"Infinity" (無限, Mugen) is the base state of the Limitless and is essentially the power to stop. The Limitless technique operates the same way convergent and divergent sequences do in mathematics. The Infinity is the convergence of an immeasurable series, anything that approaches the infinity slows down and never reaches the user. This is because the technique takes the finite amount of space between the two subjects and divides it an infinite amount of times.

In mathematics, no matter how many times someone divides a number it will never be reduced to zero. Instead, they will be left with fractional units so infinitesimal it would become immeasurable to their eye. The Limitless brings this concept into reality, so anything that attempts to penetrate the infinitely divide space will slow down to the point of appearing to stop completely.

The invisible barrier created by the Infinity can be expanded to keep harmful substances away from the user, or to overpower someone attempting to neutralize their technique. The Infinity can only be deactivated by the user, or countered by Domain Expansion or Domain Amplification. Cursed tools imbued with specialized cursed techniques can also disturb or dispel the Infinity.

-

Infinity (無限 Mugen?): Being the neutral form of the Limitless, the Infinity is commonly known as the ability to stop, although this is a common misconception as the true power of the Infinity is to slow things down. When something attempts to hit Satoru, the person or object in question instead hits the infinity between himself and them. According to Satoru, this is the convergence of an infinite series and comes straight from the paradox of Achilles and the tortoise. Akin to the way Achilles will never catch the tortoise due to the potential, infinite amounts of finite space separating them or how the real number one will never touch the real number two due to the infinite amount of fractions that separate them, the opponent will never touch Satoru due to the infinity between them. Satoru can decide what does and doesn't touch him and can do so based upon mass, speed, and danger ratings.

He isn't stopping time, he's bringgin the concept of infinity into reality. It appears as you're sllowing down because the closer you get to the defined barrier, the infinite amount of space between you and him increases.
You're also right about the part were you say you can never touch him.

Spoiler: infinity space

 

[z.5]

A little more clarity on Infinity. Gojo isn't creating an infinite space he's actually slowing down time to such a point that you can't come (never?) in contact with him.

I don't think that it really matters if time or distance manipulation - especially not if it can be cancelled out by physical contact with him

Any technique that works by increasing the distance to an object, or the time it would take to reach said object, fails when placed before an omnipresent being

Omnipresence is just that much of a hard counter to this one specific ability

Alucard doesn't need to get closer and closer, he just touches him (by literally just being there) and that's it

 

[cracker]

I don't think that it really matters if time or distance manipulation - especially not if it can be cancelled out by physical contact with him

Any technique that works by increasing the distance to an object, or the time it would take to reach said object, fails when placed before an omnipresent being

Omnipresence is just that much of a hard counter to this one specific ability

Alucard doesn't need to get closer and closer, he just touches him (by literally just being there) and that's it

I don't particularly disagree with me. I meant to mainly point out the fact, Gojo doesn't stop time when using Infinity defensively but increasingly slow it down the closer you get to him. The difference between slow and stop is quite significant so it's just something I thought was worth highlighting.

 

[Equaling Heaven]

You guys can check the two panels I sent above. They explain about the "just touch him" thing.

 

[z.5]

You guys can check the two panels I sent above. They explain about the "just touch him" thing.

No they don't - I feel you are underestimating the limits of omnipresence (or, rather, what 'being everywhere' actually means)

Alucard doesn't need to reach out to touch Gojo - thus won't touch the "infinity" that separates them

He is already touching Gojo before the fight starts (that's what omnipresence actually means) - he only needs to perceive himself being there, rather than somewhere else, and he is there

 

[Equaling Heaven]

Experienced jujutsu sorcerers are protected with energy from inside out by reflex. Even if he touch him, his body will be protected. Plus the limitless is flowing out of his body, it's a projection of his cursed technique. Alucard isn't this reality warp being who will be constantly spawning everywhere, you guys are just taking it literally. I get it's coming from the cat's feat, but when it comes to Alucard his only two feats are tooking 30 years to recognize himself again plus appearing inside an old woman room to get shot in the face. If Integra can react fast enough, so does gojo who can manipulate space - not time.

 

[z.5]

I'm taking the manga's text and what it shows as literally as it is depicted - nothing more

I'm afraid that there is no way you can dismiss this without choosing to believe that everyone who talked about Schrödinger's powers was just lying (and that everything shown and said about Gojo's powers was not)

I see no reason to believe that

The manga shows and says that Gojo can do certain things, he can - the manga says Alucard/Schrödinger was everywhere/omnipresent, they are

I'm afraid that it really is just that simple