Final Match Reinhard van Astrea vs. Homura Akemi

[Valhalla]

I note to remember. Homura needs to be alive to timetravel. She is no Satella in that regard, nor Subaru.
If she dies before she goes back, she is dead.

 

[GrySun]

Yeah kind of a lame finale(unsurprisingly). One character is far too vague with details on her strongest form's powers, and the things that are known are out of scope of this tournament. The other character really doesn't mix well with being compared to other characters since all his powers and details are far too tied to the universe he's from, so you end up playing an equalizing game where you try to equate the laws of the two stories. Works for fireballs and fists but you lose me on all this authorities stuff. Hard to impossible to compare imo.

 

[Hardy]

If she spams Labyrinth everytime its destroyed then yes, its a draw. Reinhard also has infinite stamina as he can fight Satella eternally according to the author.

Im just not ok with the the key point of the match depending on a "I dont know" in favour of Homura.

Doesn't matter if he has infinite stamina as long as he ages.

 

[GrySun]

Does his phoenix blessing revival revive him after he dies from old age

 

[Hardy]

Does his phoenix blessing revival revive him after he dies from old age

It was discussed in a previous round that he can die of natural causes and stay dead

 

[GrySun]

It was discussed in a previous round that he can die of natural causes and stay dead

But what if he‘s still needed as a hero?

 

[Hardy]

But what if he‘s still needed as a hero?

He's gonna be in a retirement home by then

 

[Lambu]

Yeah kind of a lame finale(unsurprisingly). One character is far too vague with details on her strongest form's powers, and the things that are known are out of scope of this tournament. The other character really doesn't mix well with being compared to other characters since all his powers and details are far too tied to the universe he's from, so you end up playing an equalizing game where you try to equate the laws of the two stories. Works for fireballs and fists but you lose me on all this authorities stuff. Hard to impossible to compare imo.

It is a clash of hax characters, this kind of stalemates or counters to each other are a given. Im only not a fan of Homura being so vague about her limits cause it makes these debates even more aimless.

Does his phoenix blessing revival revive him after he dies from old age

It was discussed in a previous round that he can die of natural causes and stay dead

He ages like a normal human and can die from it but Idk how would his revive work in that situation.
Anyway in that case its not Homura who beats him but his own lifespan.

I also still hold that if Reinhard destroys her Labyrinth and she cannot spam it then he wins. The match holds itself on a point that cannot be proved.

 

[GrySun]

I don't think Asako can answer you that since I believe at the current point in the plot she never had to "resummon" her labyrinth so whether she can or how that particularly works is unknown. But generally hax characters are given benefit of the doubt when things are unknown or not fully explained so her vagueness isn't in your favor here I think. Lame yes.

 

[Hardy]

It is a clash of hax characters, this kind of stalemates or counters to each other are a given. Im only not a fan of Homura being so vague about her limits cause it makes these debates even more aimless.




He ages like a normal human and can die from it but Idk how would his revive work in that situation.
Anyway in that case its not Homura who beats him but his own lifespan.

I also still hold that if Reinhard destroys her Labyrinth and she cannot spam it then he wins. The match holds itself on a point that cannot be proved.

"You didn't win I lose"

 

[Lambu]

I don't think Asako can answer you that since I believe at the current point in the plot she never had to "resummon" her labyrinth so whether she can or how that particularly works is unknown. But generally hax characters are given benefit of the doubt when things are unknown or not fully explained so her vagueness isn't in your favor here I think. Lame yes.

I disagree, when something is completely unknown you cannot use it as an argument. Just as one can believe something, another could believe the opposite and none of them is wrong.

For example I could say that Od Laguna might be able to create a Blessing of Youth or whatever so Reinhard cannot age as long as he's fighting. Od Laguna holds concepts like no-aging inmortality after all.

Can I use it as an argument now? No I can't, this is pure speculation on my part.
I cannot state "Reinhard wont die of old age" in the same way Asako can't state "Homura can recast her Labyrinth infinite times", we dont know that and theres no way of knowing, no reference.

So I would rather go with the character whose actions are clearer, if you dont agree with that train of thought its fine.

 

[GrySun]

Hm

 

[Asako]

Didn't you just say she could seal a part of Madoka's powers because they depended on the Universe outside of Labyrinth?

Reid's power isn't like that as far as Im concerned since its independent of Od Laguna's will.
The Divine Protection only allows the user to wield it, its Reid what decides if it wants to be unsheathed or not, it also literally destroys the concepts Od Laguna creates.

????
When did i say that

You're misunderstanding me, madokami not being able to use her powers inside homura labyrinth is different form her powers being sealed
In first one she lost her godhood power because the labyrinth isolated it form the outside aka law of cylce but still had her powers as a magical girl.
In the second one after they break homura barrier with both a combo form homura and madoka bows. ( I found out it called the tree of life btw while recherching)
That caused madokami to regain her powers as a god, that's when the sealing part comes in
Homura curses overflow, start to strip madoka powers into two halfs, one half is her normal human self and the other is her madokami powers self, seals her powers in her soul gem and now her labyrinth expanded to the whole universe after becoming akuma homura

@GrySun we already know she can make a labyrinth again considering it did technically get broken but she did remade it later as an upgraded version so yes she can remake labyrinth


Also the thing is if reinhard can't swing his sword cuz of homura time stop, how can he destroy the labyrinth

Btw we don't really know if reinhard resistance to time stop comes form his blessings (probably) or not cuz it was never mentioned ever, if he even have it

Lambu only assume he able to move in time Stop cuz author said if satella and him fight, it end in a statement cuz of incompatible in powers
But i give him that

--- Double Post Merged, May 6, 2021, Original Post Date: May 6, 2021 ---

I don't think Asako can answer you that since I believe at the current point in the plot she never had to "resummon" her labyrinth so whether she can or how that particularly works is unknown. But generally hax characters are given benefit of the doubt when things are unknown or not fully explained so her vagueness isn't in your favor here I think. Lame yes.

She did
Check above

--- Double Post Merged, May 6, 2021 ---

Btw lambu there also in the wrath if where Reinhard become really injured exhausted form previous fight, he fights on Emilia but in one instant he couldn't avoid emilia ice sword, then puck fight that we don't know what happen to both of them in the end
My point is the guy can be weakened depend on the events that happen.


My point is homura can technically still use despair on him considering he technically feel, in times he failed as hero he can break down
In pride if he definitely didn't lose physical but he did lose everything he ever cared about, Homura can recreate that with mind manipulation

 

[Lambu]

????
When did i say that

Omg Asako... please...

I said this:

It makes no sense that characters can use their powers according to their Universe's design inside her Labyrinth but Madoka or Rein can't.

And then you answered this:

It's cause both of them needs other things outside but homura cut interference form the outside.
If it was their own powers with no need of help of things outside like example sayaka, they could keep it

You have to explain yourself better or its going to be impossible to follow you, Im really trying but its hard.

You're misunderstanding me, madokami not being able to use her powers inside homura labyrinth is different form her powers being sealed
In first one she lost her godhood power because the labyrinth isolated it form the outside aka law of cylce but still had her powers as a magical girl.
In the second one after they break homura barrier with both a combo form homura and madoka bows. ( I found out it called the tree of life btw while recherching)
That caused madokami to regain her powers as a god, that's when the sealing part comes in
Homura curses overflow, start to strip madoka powers into two halfs, one half is her normal human self and the other is her madokami powers self, seals her powers in her soul gem and now her labyrinth expanded to the whole universe after becoming akuma homura

Did that entire process happen out of Homura's will or was it an effect created from her overflowing curses/Soul gem going nuts?

Im still waiting for your response for this post

I'll ask again. If Reinhard destroys her Labyrinth what happens? Can he destroy her? Does she spawn back like a mushroom? Does she make another Labyrinth or is her Soul Gem spent after some time?

Im asking because she has zero battle feats once becoming Akuma Homura.
Its all suppositions and it looks like the limits of the character are set by its unknown status, something that doesn't sit well with me.

Also the thing is if reinhard can't swing his sword cuz of homura time stop, how can he destroy the labyrinth

Btw we don't really know if reinhard resistance to time stop comes form his blessings (probably) or not cuz it was never mentioned ever, if he even have it

Lambu only assume he able to move in time Stop cuz author said if satella and him fight, it end in a statement cuz of incompatible in powers
But i give him that

Its thanks to his blessings. He has total inmunity against curses and debuffs, also to Yin magic that features space-time manipulation (Time stop, dimension breaking, mind manipulation, etc).

Also that is correct, Satella with Time Stop and with a dimension at her disposal that ignores time cannot defeat Reinhard.

Btw lambu there also in the wrath if where Reinhard become really injured exhausted form previous fight, he fights on Emilia but in one instant he couldn't avoid emilia ice sword, then puck fight that we don't know what happen to both of them in the end
My point is the guy can be weakened depend on the events that happen.

In Wrath IF, when Reinhard tries to take Emilia to save her she gets close to him and unconsciously stabs him with an ice sword. He gets perplexed by this and wonders if it was for his blessing being weakened that he couldn't sense it coming. Its even stated that if Emilia had held the intent of hurting him it would have worked. His blessing at full efficiency works on any attack.

He could have destroyed the entire domain at any time too but his objective was to capture Subaru, not to kill him with everyone inside.

My point is homura can technically still use despair on him considering he technically feel, in times he failed as hero he can break down
In pride if he definitely didn't lose physical but he did lose everything he ever cared about, Homura can recreate that with mind manipulation

We never saw Reinhard despair, not even in the IF stories.
He was never broken down even in Pride IF when the Capital was engulfed in flames, he only felt great anger. You are holding onto the point of him giving up if he can't save anyone as if you can "drive him mad" with that idea and its not like that.

I hold that if she somehow manages to pull him inside her Labyrinth against his will, then he will have enough strength to resist and burst the bubble. Then what does she do? Recast infinitely? Can she really do that? Or does she escape to another timeline to try a different strategy? Ok then, what strategy?

This character is so unknown that I cannot even see what she does to fight once Akuma.