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Discussion Would legalizing regulated brothels be good or bad?

M3J

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Basic consent? What's the basic for?

I don't have an issue with it as a business transaction. If you enjoy something, why not get paid for it? No one gets harmed or hurt, ideally, when it comes to prostitution. I will never understand why people claim it's immoral, a lot of them same people who cheat on their significant others. But then, we live in a society where people think porn stars are unsafe and riddled with diseases even though they get checked at least every two months.
 

Drmke

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Basic consent? What's the basic for?
I just meant a simple "yes, I would like to have sex with you." No deeper meaning to my word choice.
 

kannazuki

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I meant they'd go after more children and increase the amount of children to traffic. Take more risk, more like.
Gotcha.

Yes, it was wrong of me to make a grandiose statement about no one choosing on their own to do sex work. However, I stand by the rest of what I said. It's not a matter of "slut shaming" and prudishness. People should be free to have sexual relations with whoever they want whenever as much as they want they want providing basic consent. My probably is when it becomes a business transaction; it's the literal commodification of the human body which I see as a serious negative.
If I understand correctly, your position is that the exchange of money invalidates consent? I guess it's just your opinion, but I think the workers who willingly provide these services would disagree with both that, and (most people would disagree with) your interpretation that all it takes to "commodify" an entire human being is to exchange money for a limited, temporary opportunity to have sex, even if it's entirely on the worker's terms. A human being is more than just a collection of body parts. I can't imagine how someone would have anything resembling ownership over another person just because they were offered the privilege of having sex with them.
 

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Rarely do the majority of prostitutes do business entirely on their own terms. There is almost always more nuanced social conditions involved (patriarchy, poverty, racism, gender-based oppression, etc.) that come into play. Sex workers don't exist because one day someone said "Oh, you know what would be an easier way to pay my bills?" Some people make the best out of it and that's great; I don't shame people or think anyone should be shamed for surviving how the best see fit especially under less than ideal situations.

And no, the exchange of money does not invalidate consent. I was saying turning a normal human interaction into a business transaction removes the "humanity" so to speak of the action. Paying for sex is (in my opinion...obviously) paying for the body of someone temporarily and that is similar to a form of ownership. My beef is with the actions of those who look at another person as something to be paid for. Yes, humans aren't just body parts, but your body is a massive part of who you are, intimately connected to your feelings and perception of yourself and the world around you.

I sound like I'm on some moral crusade but I'm not. My answer to the thread question is "good." But I take some mild offensive to the idea that nobody is harmed in prostitution even if it is something the individual "chose" (and "choice" is an interesting word people use which normally ignores many of the constant pressures I mentioned in brief before similar to the idea that people choose to do drugs or choose to do shit jobs).
 

kannazuki

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Rarely do the majority of prostitutes do business entirely on their own terms. There is almost always more nuanced social conditions involved (patriarchy, poverty, racism, gender-based oppression, etc.) that come into play. Sex workers don't exist because one day someone said "Oh, you know what would be an easier way to pay my bills?" Some people make the best out of it and that's great; I don't shame people or think anyone should be shamed for surviving how the best see fit especially under less than ideal situations.
I and others here have qualified numerous times that we're not talking about people who are being coerced (i.e. made to work in this area by force) or exploited (i.e. made to work in this area by circumstance). We all want to help people in those circumstances, but that's a separate issue. It doesn't reflect on those that chose to be there in any way. How about we continue to advocate both smarter policing AND targeted social mobility-related transition programs (i.e. education, work training/apprenticeship programs, social housing, counselling, etc.) for those who aren't where they want to be. In fact if such programs were fully available to all citizens facing financial (and related) troubles, I'd expect the rate and severity of mental illnesses, crime, and domestic violence would go down as well. (Not as much as with a basic income, but it's a start at least toward earning one as a worker/entrepreneur in a chosen profession.)

And no, the exchange of money does not invalidate consent. I was saying turning a normal human interaction into a business transaction removes the "humanity" so to speak of the action. Paying for sex is (in my opinion...obviously) paying for the body of someone temporarily and that is similar to a form of ownership. My beef is with the actions of those who look at another person as something to be paid for. Yes, humans aren't just body parts, but your body is a massive part of who you are, intimately connected to your feelings and perception of yourself and the world around you.
Sex isn't only about friction between body parts. If it was, why not just use a relatively inexpensive sex toy? Whether they realize it or not, these customers aren't just paying for body parts. Underlying the physical sensations, I think there's a certain thrill these people are seeking that's right along the same lines as anybody else. It has to do with negotiating, power dynamics, building human-to-human intimacy, and exploration of vulnerability (on all sides). And what happens in one customer's mind at the time is not necessarily the same thing happening in the next customer's or from one worker's mind to the next, for that matter.

I sound like I'm on some moral crusade but I'm not. My answer to the thread question is "good." But I take some mild offensive to the idea that nobody is harmed in prostitution even if it is something the individual "chose" (and "choice" is an interesting word people use which normally ignores many of the constant pressures I mentioned in brief before similar to the idea that people choose to do drugs or choose to do shit jobs).
We're not ignoring pressures. You're bringing irrelevant cases into the equation. On the "moral crusade thing," I see it's not what you intend. I'm only guessing here but I think rather the case is that society's ideas of sex being a "dirty" thing are influencing you here. But that's not inherently the case. It's only as "dirty" as people make it.
 

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Rarely do the majority of prostitutes do business entirely on their own terms. There is almost always more nuanced social conditions involved (patriarchy, poverty, racism, gender-based oppression, etc.) that come into play. Sex workers don't exist because one day someone said "Oh, you know what would be an easier way to pay my bills?" Some people make the best out of it and that's great; I don't shame people or think anyone should be shamed for surviving how the best see fit especially under less than ideal situations.
Do you have any evidence to back this up? I'm more likely to believe there are more prostitutes forced into the business than majority of prostitutes being forced. But, when poverty & patriarchy comes into play, as well as being born to a prostitute, then yeah. At least in India, I assume it's not entirely out of choice.

I don't know the history of prostitution, but I wouldn't be shocked if someone (a lady maybe) enjoyed having sex and thought to charge instead of doing it for free.

I don't think any woman who has sex in general should be shamed. Society sucks though.

I sound like I'm on some moral crusade but I'm not. My answer to the thread question is "good." But I take some mild offensive to the idea that nobody is harmed in prostitution even if it is something the individual "chose" (and "choice" is an interesting word people use which normally ignores many of the constant pressures I mentioned in brief before similar to the idea that people choose to do drugs or choose to do shit jobs).
I think it depends. If someone does it out of choice, then he or she is not harmed. The only downside is that due to prostitution being illegal, there is a big potential for a prostitute to be harmed because they can't get proper healthcare, and they might not get proper help from the authority due to their work and social stigma.
 

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Legalizing will help control and regulate the industry, ensure that the women/men working here can access legal or other help if necessary, that they won't be penalized for that and have a legal recourse in case of exploitation. Making it legal also enables the Govt. to allocate more funds for the improvement of this community to set up clinics, easy access to medical facilities, etc.. RIght now, most of help comes from NGOs like Bill and Melinda Gates foundation.
Most importantly i lifts the veil of shame and brings it to forefront so that they can at least start addressing their problems. Lets grow up and move on from the stupid moral compunctions about prostitution. There life, sufferings and happiness is just as real as yours or mine.
 
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xi0

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Most importantly i lifts the veil of shame and brings it to forefront so that they can at least start addressing their problems. Lets grow up and move on from the stupid moral compunctions about prostitution.
Implying that legalizing it will somehow remove the shame of it seems overly generous. I agree that legalizing it in order to regulate it is a good idea, but I don't think a change like that would really change opinions about it all that much.
 

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Implying that legalizing it will somehow remove the shame of it seems overly generous. I agree that legalizing it in order to regulate it is a good idea, but I don't think a change like that would really change opinions about it all that much.
Certainly not immediately, but do you doubt that in the long term it will not be viewed as negatively?

Do you share this view with drugs, such as weed, also?
 

xi0

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Certainly not immediately, but do you doubt that in the long term it will not be viewed as negatively?

Do you share this view with drugs, such as weed, also?
Probably not, but it won't completely remove the stigma of it IMO

Not as much perhaps, as there isn't as much religiosity concerning those.
 

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Maybe I just haven't picked up so strongly on the religious negativity... to be honest, it's hard to find things which aren't viewed negatively, except perhaps penitence, by one religious group or another...

I also doubt that it would be universally accepted, but I do think it will become less obviously stigmatised if legalized.

Then again, I believe that the argument for how well viewed prostitution is, is the wrong argument for legalization.
 

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Certainly not immediately, but do you doubt that in the long term it will not be viewed as negatively?

Do you share this view with drugs, such as weed, also?
I don't think it'll ever be viewed as anything but negative, not as long as society has this view that women must be chaste or virginal for their future husbands.
 

kannazuki

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Changes in law might not bring about big changes in cultural outlook by themselves. I think it requires looking at the sources of that cultural imprint (i.e. that prostitution should be seen as "shameful"), calling them into question, and replacing them. Religion is a (very powerful) source of cultural input, but it isn't the only one and it can be overridden if other cultural institutions make a case that sounds more compelling to people.
 

xi0

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Then again, I believe that the argument for how well viewed prostitution is, is the wrong argument for legalization.
Well, that was kind of my point in the first place. It being legalized should be done in order to protect the people who participate in it, not make others feel better about it.
 

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I don't think it'll ever be viewed as anything but negative, not as long as society has this view that women must be chaste or virginal for their future husbands.
Ah, the old 'men should sleep around - cause that's really manly - but women shouldn't sleep around - cause that makes them sluts'...
Men kinda shooting themselves in the foot with these kind of views.

Not only does the maths fail on this equation - the only way for men to be more 'manly' is for women to be less 'womanly' - but also, it seems a poor method of convincing a woman to 'spend the night' by calling her a slut if she is willing to...

I disagree kannazuki - changes in the law will of course help to lead to changes in outlook. Look at cigarettes/cocaine/alcohol...
These have switched from positive, to negative, to positive/neutral...

It would be a mistake to ignore how strongly the laws of the land can affect public outlook on things.
 

kannazuki

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I disagree kannazuki - changes in the law will of course help to lead to changes in outlook. Look at cigarettes/cocaine/alcohol...
These have switched from positive, to negative, to positive/neutral...

It would be a mistake to ignore how strongly the laws of the land can affect public outlook on things.
I didn't say changes in the law wouldn't help at all, though. I said that they couldn't make a big change on their own. As for cigarettes and drugs, both of those had sustained campaigns of both PSAs, and reduced (though certainly not eliminated) glorification in the media. No one was more susceptible to that new media landscape than young people and that is why these changes were generational. Some places did have public smoking bans, but at least speaking from my own experience, I've never heard of anyone quitting smoking because they weren't allowed to smoke in public (or outside of a ventilated room, in the case of Japan). I've seen countless people (here in Canada) ignore the rules though.
 

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Ah, the old 'men should sleep around - cause that's really manly - but women shouldn't sleep around - cause that makes them sluts'...
Men kinda shooting themselves in the foot with these kind of views.

Not only does the maths fail on this equation - the only way for men to be more 'manly' is for women to be less 'womanly' - but also, it seems a poor method of convincing a woman to 'spend the night' by calling her a slut if she is willing to...

I disagree kannazuki - changes in the law will of course help to lead to changes in outlook. Look at cigarettes/cocaine/alcohol...
These have switched from positive, to negative, to positive/neutral...

It would be a mistake to ignore how strongly the laws of the land can affect public outlook on things.
I know, and I've said that many times. It annoys me as to what gives others the right to judge whether someone else is fucking the entire neighborhood or saving themselves.

Anyway, I don't see the laws making prostitution look any better. That needs to start with changing views towards women and sex, especially sex when it comes to women. I don't think men are as scrutinized whether they become porn stars or gigolos.
 

xi0

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I know, and I've said that many times. It annoys me as to what gives others the right to judge whether someone else is fucking the entire neighborhood or saving themselves.
Judging someone for what you know of their sexuality isn't really the issue here, it's the act of shaming them. I'm sure everyone in this thread is guilty of thinking a certain way about someone when they've heard salacious things concerning them. Thought itself isn't really harmful on it's own. I generally detest society pressuring people into feeling bad or wrong over their thoughts. It's the act of shaming or humiliating someone over it that's the issue.
 

M3J

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Judging someone for what you know of their sexuality isn't really the issue here, it's the act of shaming them. I'm sure everyone in this thread is guilty of thinking a certain way about someone when they've heard salacious things concerning them. Thought itself isn't really harmful on it's own. I generally detest society pressuring people into feeling bad or wrong over their thoughts. It's the act of shaming or humiliating someone over it that's the issue.
I was thinking of shaming them publicly when I said that, but that's basically what I have a problem with. I don't like Kim Kardashian and don't care much for Amber Rose, but they're unfortunately victims of this. I just can't see the majority changing their views towards prostitution, especially considering it's been in existence for centuries, and I think premarital sex became a thing in the 60s.
 

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Prostitution is shameful because religious bigots make it look this way. And too many people are influenced by them.
 
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