Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Jko]

FDK Spells and FDK Mode are two different things. FDKM enhances his FDK Spells which is why his Demo-Fist was that much stronger and hotter then the one he used on Iku or the 1 mil army. FDKM Spells >>>> Base FDK Spells and Hiro has made a clear indication of when he's in the Mode and when he's not.

 

[Char]

So if you agree that Mira is on Erza's level on portrayal but doesn't have as much feats;
Why can't we accept that Gray is on Natsu level due to protrayal at base? when we see their portrayals far more than Mira does on Erza.

Seems like a double standard here.

We can base Mira on portrayal. She's always said to be Erza's equal. They're around the same ages, and have shown similar progression. As a matter of fact, they were equal even when Mira hadn't used magic for years. And Mashima stated Mira would beat Erza in an all out fight (or so I read). Like, Mira has the offensive, while Erza has the "will".

As for Natsu/Gray, we cannot use this analogy, since Natsu is the protagonist and Gray is not. Erza has always trusted Natsu more, she always talks about him more, hypes him more. Natsu was always one step ahead of Gray. When they fought casually, they might stalemate; but when it was about powerful foes, bloodlusted base Natsu was always superior. For example, back to PL invasion, Erza trusted that Natsu could save everyone, and when he fought serious he was stronger than her. But she never said anything like that to Gray. His portrayal has always followed this pattern: although they were "rivals", just like Natsu and Gajeel; Natsu was always superior. Gray is more intelligent and cool-headed but Natsu's recklessness is what always gives him the edge.

Now, talking about Alvarez, feat wise, I think we'll all agree that base Natsu has shown us some things that very little characters have shown. For example, oneshotting BlueNote. The intensity of Natsu's training must've been huge, whereas Gray was only training with Juvia, who's below his level of power, maybe limiting him (that's just a guess). And, again, Ur was toying with Gray and Lyon and saying they (together) were a hundred years from her, whereas I think base Natsu could have given her a better fight than the two Ice Magicians gave her.

There's not much we can attribute to base gray based on portrayal. When Makarov was surprised at his MP progression, Gray was using his DeS mode. Actually, when Natsu and Gray were fighting/warming up back in Avatar, and I don't think this shows or proves anything (I don't consider this a feat), Gray was using his DeS to keep up if I'm not mistaken...

So it's not a double standard. Is that portrayal is more complex than it may seem, and it doesn't treat every character equally. And portrayal is sometimes not to be taken into account: 4 gods of Ishgar should each be superior to Laxus based on portrayal, turns out it's not this way based on feats.

Also, saying the attack Natsu used against the God of War is an FDKM attack seems a bit far-fetched to me, since the events are prior to FDKM unleashing. Natsu was hiding these powers from the rest, so I still think it was a base attack. But even if it was, it changes nothing. Base Natsu one-shotted BlueNote and that is his most incredible base feat so far, one that Gray could not beat.

As for Gajeel, he should be on par or slightly superior to base Gray. Steel-shadow mode should be around DeS Gray mode, and DF Gajeel, if ever shown, should be slightly above. That's a wild guess though, since we haven't seen full power DeS Gray or Steel-shadow current Gajeel.

If you actually read the avatar arc you would know what happened in that fight, they're portrayed as equals in base at least.

Irrelevant. Plus, I'm pretty sure that was DeS Gray vs base Natsu. Even if he wasn't, it happens to be an irrelevant fight nonetheless and it proves no feat to be honest.

Hence, they were portrayed as equal when neither were serious.

OK I can agree to that if you'll feel better. But when they go serious base Natsu far outclasses base Gray.

Yes they can, Gajeel was albiet tangoing with a Spirggan and Gray should at least be Erza tier, current Erza would destroy both Bluenote and the Giant.

tangoing a Spriggan who doesn't even have a scratch... Base gray is well below Erza, DeS Gray may be on par with Erza. And no, I think we all agree that neither Erza nor Gray could oneshot Bluenote and the giant god.

This part is ACTUALLY SO IRRELEVANT. I never once said Gajeel was overall on par with Bradman I was talking strictly physical combat.

You might not have clarified, or I might have missread you, the thing is strictly physical combat is not a factor between two magues fighting. Physical combat is irrelevant here unless you're fighting a purely physical mague like Erza.

Erza was at full power from the start, Erza doesn't have any modes or whatever. It was shown iin the latest chapter Bradman's intang isn't passive and he can be hit if he doesn't expect it.

We could consider base Erza her main armor, and full power Erza Nakagami armor, her fire trousers armor or even any armor that actually works as a counter against the magic of the opponent. Still, yes, I can agree that Erza was fighting FP since the beginning. As for the scan, I see it again and again and nothing proves he actually got damage.

No, he wouldn't. They all ran because Makarov ordered them to and insisted they couldn't beat Ajeel before actually seeing how strong they had gotten over the year time skip. Ajeel is very powerful that I know but he isn't unbeatable nor is he purely intangible to just water and wind or Natsu wouldn't have been able to hit him.

Nice point, Natsu touching him. It was probably either taking him by surprise or Natsu burning his sand body. Still, Gajeel is pretty much powerless against Ajeel, since physical attacks don't work on him, particularly weapons with edges, the pass through him. Ajeel would take this easy diff.

The difference is effort. Natsu can oneshot Bluenote while holding Chelia up by the shirt, whereas Gray defeated Ur mid-diff.

Like Natsu was even trying... Natsu oneshotted (low-diffed) Bluenote stinger and Gray AND LYION high-diffed an opponent of similar caliber. That's all that matters.

I don't doubt that Erza can beat someone like Bluenote. However, given the difficulty she had in taking out Azuma, who is stronger than Bluenote, I doubt she could just oneshot him.

You meant "who is weaker than Bluenote", right?

 

[Crimson Ice]

Bradman was affected by headbutt as much as Zirconis was affected by Wendy's roar. Neither of the two actually damage them. Gajeel is beat up while Brandman has no damage on him so clearly you're wrong.

Gajeel's in tatters and you still think he's on par with Bradman

So yo just going to ignore everything. Tell me how Bradman physically hurt Gajeel, because Bradman didn't harm Gajeel through physical force, it is as simple as that. Show me physically harming Gajeel

 

[Tinitus]

We can base Mira on portrayal. She's always said to be Erza's equal. They're around the same ages, and have shown similar progression. As a matter of fact, they were equal even when Mira hadn't used magic for years. And Mashima stated Mira would beat Erza in an all out fight (or so I read). Like, Mira has the offensive, while Erza has the "will".

As for Natsu/Gray, we cannot use this analogy, since Natsu is the protagonist and Gray is not. Erza has always trusted Natsu more, she always talks about him more, hypes him more. Natsu was always one step ahead of Gray. When they fought casually, they might stalemate; but when it was about powerful foes, bloodlusted base Natsu was always superior. For example, back to PL invasion, Erza trusted that Natsu could save everyone, and when he fought serious he was stronger than her. But she never said anything like that to Gray. His portrayal has always followed this pattern: although they were "rivals", just like Natsu and Gajeel; Natsu was always superior. Gray is more intelligent and cool-headed but Natsu's recklessness is what always gives him the edge.

Now, talking about Alvarez, feat wise, I think we'll all agree that base Natsu has shown us some things that very little characters have shown. For example, oneshotting BlueNote. The intensity of Natsu's training must've been huge, whereas Gray was only training with Juvia, who's below his level of power, maybe limiting him (that's just a guess). And, again, Ur was toying with Gray and Lyon and saying they (together) were a hundred years from her, whereas I think base Natsu could have given her a better fight than the two Ice Magicians gave her.

There's not much we can attribute to base gray based on portrayal. When Makarov was surprised at his MP progression, Gray was using his DeS mode. Actually, when Natsu and Gray were fighting/warming up back in Avatar, and I don't think this shows or proves anything (I don't consider this a feat), Gray was using his DeS to keep up if I'm not mistaken...

So it's not a double standard. Is that portrayal is more complex than it may seem, and it doesn't treat every character equally. And portrayal is sometimes not to be taken into account: 4 gods of Ishgar should each be superior to Laxus based on portrayal, turns out it's not this way based on feats.

Also, saying the attack Natsu used against the God of War is an FDKM attack seems a bit far-fetched to me, since the events are prior to FDKM unleashing. Natsu was hiding these powers from the rest, so I still think it was a base attack. But even if it was, it changes nothing. Base Natsu one-shotted BlueNote and that is his most incredible base feat so far, one that Gray could not beat.

As for Gajeel, he should be on par or slightly superior to base Gray. Steel-shadow mode should be around DeS Gray mode, and DF Gajeel, if ever shown, should be slightly above. That's a wild guess though, since we haven't seen full power DeS Gray or Steel-shadow current Gajeel.



Irrelevant. Plus, I'm pretty sure that was DeS Gray vs base Natsu. Even if he wasn't, it happens to be an irrelevant fight nonetheless and it proves no feat to be honest.



OK I can agree to that if you'll feel better. But when they go serious base Natsu far outclasses base Gray.



tangoing a Spriggan who doesn't even have a scratch... Base gray is well below Erza, DeS Gray may be on par with Erza. And no, I think we all agree that neither Erza nor Gray could oneshot Bluenote and the giant god.



You might not have clarified, or I might have missread you, the thing is strictly physical combat is not a factor between two magues fighting. Physical combat is irrelevant here unless you're fighting a purely physical mague like Erza.



We could consider base Erza her main armor, and full power Erza Nakagami armor, her fire trousers armor or even any armor that actually works as a counter against the magic of the opponent. Still, yes, I can agree that Erza was fighting FP since the beginning. As for the scan, I see it again and again and nothing proves he actually got damage.



Nice point, Natsu touching him. It was probably either taking him by surprise or Natsu burning his sand body. Still, Gajeel is pretty much powerless against Ajeel, since physical attacks don't work on him, particularly weapons with edges, the pass through him. Ajeel would take this easy diff.



Like Natsu was even trying... Natsu oneshotted (low-diffed) Bluenote stinger and Gray AND LYION high-diffed an opponent of similar caliber. That's all that matters.



You meant "who is weaker than Bluenote", right?

If we can base Mira on portrayal, then Gray can easily be portrayed to be based on portrayal with Natsu since they are in the higher bound in rep here. Gray was always said to be equal to Natsu, we even had Natsu's closest friend confirm this. Both Gray and Natsu are physically are around the same age, although Gray looks older. Erza surpassed Mirajane when the latter didn't have magic. Mashima never stated Mira would beat Erza, post a panel of proof for this. Erza has more offensive feats than Mira does. Erza has portrayal of being offensive oriented than Mira does. The comparison isn't even close.
We can use this analogy considering there more feats of portrayal between Natsu and Gray than they are of Mira and Erza. We recently had Gray and Natsu stalemate each other at the same level of difficulty, compared to Erza simply overshadowing Mira. Gray is considered one of the male protagonists of the series, Hiro confirmed it, Wikia confirms this. Erza is also considered one of the female protagonists of the series, so your claims are contradiction. The difference in relevance between Erza and Mira is far greater than Gray and Natsu, so your analogy is flawed especially when Mira is a side character. Erza doesn't trust Natsu more than she does of Gray especially when she trusted Gray to get the job done in Galuna and also trusted him enough to do the right thing in PH arc. She trusted Gray enough that he would be able to deliver against Ultear. You know in retrospective That has literally no coherence to what the argument is even at this point and has no bearing to what portrayal stands for. Makarov hyped up Gray regardless. Erza was always one step ahead of Mira, your point? Clearly Natsu one on one against Gray has not shown to be one step ahead, so once again your claims are false, and let's not forget the slaying advantage Gray has up on Natsu with Natsu being half etherious/demon. Being more intelligent and cool headed isn't always inferior to recklessness, infact it's the opposite. Brawn loses to Brain. Especially when Brain has good strength.

Gray has only shown a panel to train with Juvia, but he could've secretly trained hardcore on his own, much like how Happy must've trained with Natsu who is well below his power, and we haven't seen how much Natsu has trained in power. Bluenote isn't special anymore, I don't know why people keep believing this. All he did was overwhelm Base Wendy and Base Chelia for a bit with his gravity hax. Bluenote could've easily regressed. Erza and Gray has chances to oneshot or atleast low diff Bluenote at most.

I can't believe you still haven't clued in on the Ul fight whatsoever. As for Ur "toying" with Gray and Lyon, that's because Gray was holding back his power immensely, Lyon was in the clouds not even involved eventfully in the fight. Gray in base was holding back his power against Ul so Lyon can overcome the latter, this has already been made clear and settled with numerous times. (Didn't use any of his usual strong ice make attacks/no Ds/Demon mode) Only your ignorance is to blame for not comprehending something so simple. I wish some of the ft fandom can clue in on something that is obvious and be more alert on the context and suble hints provided to them instead of just taking everything into face value. LOL Gray would easily do much more than Base Natsu considering Gray has the elemental advantage of eating UL's ice for a boost and stomp with DeS, and again you're wrong especially within the context of how the fight went. Gray was made as a support mage in the fight to cheer up Lyon and get him to battle seriously, which is why he was holding back for majority of the fight, even his last attack was him using des magic on his base mode which is much different than using des spells on his DeS Mode. DeS Mode Gray would stomp Ul, Base Natsu will not.

There's plenty to base Gray on his portrayal, the whole time I've been arguing DeS Gray is around Base Natsu level in portrayal. Heck Base Gray can still be considered to be on Base natsu level on portrayal for old time sakes. Yeah you're mistaken, considering Gray only used DeS Mode as look wise so he wouldn't blow his cover as a double agent/spy and ruin Jellal's mission. Gray was using his basic ice magic against Natsu, and they stalemated each other for most of the fight in a serious context where Gray actually got a extra punch hin. That shows portrayal of equality, unlike the Mira-Erza portrayal you are consider of using.
It's a double standard, clearly. We are not basing everything into feats, this is a power scaling thread, and infact you would contradict your own represented views, considering Erza outclasses Mira in feats by a large margin. Actually some of GOI were protrayed to be even above Laxus, especially Hyberion and possibly Wolfheim.

Do you not understand portrayal? which differs from combat feats? You keep using feats where Natsu shown that Gray hasn't while neglecting the feats Erza shown that put her far head above Mira , which is hypocritical on your part.
Steel-Shadow Mode is temporary though as carbon was used to give him that boost which is environmental use.. ISD Gajeel would be around or slightly below DeS Gray.
It was essentially Gray with his hair spiked up with a curse mark using Base Gray level spells vs Base Natsu. Protrayal can be considered a feat, so yeah it's a feat regardless. It wasn't irellevant anyway, since it was the major catalyst of the avatar reunion, so you obvious need to rethink and reconsider what you post.
When they go serious, Natsu has superior feats, he doesn't outclass Gray in portrayal. Gray has the advantage over Natsu from slaying and intellect. . Not everyone will agree that Gray and Erza can't oneshot Bluenote. War God definitely not, but Bluenote is definitely oneshottable. Mira is well below Gray, Gajeel, Natsu and Erza. Stop putting her up a pedestal where she doesn't belong to be in.

>Implying Gray was even trying.... Gray held back for Lyon's sake, and motivated him. Hahahaha, "high diff". Hahahahahahahahaaha
Hahahaah, that was funny. But seriously, you can't be serious here. Once Gray and Lyon got serious, Ur was oneshotted. So yeah it was a low diff win.
Bluenote is weaker than Azuma. The same Azuma who lolstomped Benisakura and most of her armors. Bluenote just has better CQC than Azuma, that's about it.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Irrelevant. Plus, I'm pretty sure that was DeS Gray vs base Natsu. Even if he wasn't, it happens to be an irrelevant fight nonetheless and it proves no feat to be honest.



OK I can agree to that if you'll feel better. But when they go serious base Natsu far outclasses base Gray.



tangoing a Spriggan who doesn't even have a scratch... Base gray is well below Erza, DeS Gray may be on par with Erza. And no, I think we all agree that neither Erza nor Gray could oneshot Bluenote and the giant god.



You might not have clarified, or I might have missread you, the thing is strictly physical combat is not a factor between two magues fighting. Physical combat is irrelevant here unless you're fighting a purely physical mague like Erza.



We could consider base Erza her main armor, and full power Erza Nakagami armor, her fire trousers armor or even any armor that actually works as a counter against the magic of the opponent. Still, yes, I can agree that Erza was fighting FP since the beginning. As for the scan, I see it again and again and nothing proves he actually got damage.



Nice point, Natsu touching him. It was probably either taking him by surprise or Natsu burning his sand body. Still, Gajeel is pretty much powerless against Ajeel, since physical attacks don't work on him, particularly weapons with edges, the pass through him. Ajeel would take this easy diff.



Like Natsu was even trying... Natsu oneshotted (low-diffed) Bluenote stinger and Gray AND LYION high-diffed an opponent of similar caliber. That's all that matters.



You meant "who is weaker than Bluenote", right?

He never used any DeS spells and the fight isn't irrelevant, do you not know what portrayal is.


We haven't seen Gray go all out so that's irrelevant, when Gray goes all out and is far behind Natsu then I'll agree until then I will use this thing called portrayal.

Did I say it was? You're nit picking my post you read my post wrong and know you're not picking it. I only ever claimed Gajeel in base was physically on par with Bradman, never it was a big factor....Even though it is.

Energy based magic can hurt him, Gajeel can use the Iron Shadow dragon mode, so no he doesn't win.


Gray was holding back against Ur so that's irrelevant, the second Gray got Lyon over Ur they beat her immediately

 

[Tinitus]

Gray has attacks comparable to base Natsu's attacks in terms of AoE and the level of opponents they can take out. Natsu's roar can take out Bluenote, who should be around Jura's level. Gray's Zero Longsword can take out Ur, who should be anywhere between Jose and Jura's level. The difference is effort. Natsu can oneshot Bluenote while holding Chelia up by the shirt, whereas Gray defeated Ur mid-diff. The same can be said for Erza. I don't doubt that Erza can beat someone like Bluenote. However, given the difficulty she had in taking out Azuma, who is stronger than Bluenote, I doubt she could just oneshot him. It would at least require a mid-difficulty effort.

Remember, FDK mode is still Natsu though. If things get tough, Natsu will resort to FDK.

Gray didn't defeat Ur, he along with Lyon low-diffed her, once they got serious. Gray didn't put much effort into facing Ur to begin with, when he played the motivating friend to overcome emotions role and held back psychologically, mentally and physically.

and remember Gray is still has his DeS mode, which he hasn't been using because none of the situations has forced him to use it outside of the Ajeel skirmish something that impressed Ajeel which is also a feat considering Ajeel is the cocky type.

Portrayal means nothing if we don't know the exact context of what is going on.

And I'm telling you, I answered that two comments ago. If your question is implying that I have a problem with you yourself and not with the points your making, that's not the case. If you're asking whether I think Gajeel is on the same level as Natsu, my answer would be probably not.

\

Protrayal is a feat. We know both are around the same level of difficulty shown to face each other. Same as Base Gajeel being equal to Cobra on portrayal on the spin off make. That's all that's required to be put on each other's level. Combat feats belong in vs thread where Base Gajeel has more feats than Cobra in that regard.

You still haven't proved that Base Natsu can use lightning spells.

I said, do you have a problem if someone says Gray and Gajeel are on Base Natsu tier?, which is different than being on Base Natsu's level. I'm arguing Gray is on Base Natsu level meaning equal level like it's a toss-up draw. Being on his tier means you can give Base Natsu a high diff fight.
Plus Gray has the slaying advantage to pound Natsu with Natsu being half etherious, this is fact.

Natsu was in his Base state when he used FDK Spells against Ikusa-Tsunagi and 927 Alvarez Soldiers.It was first during fight against Zeref he unveiled FDKM in chapter 464.But before that he was still in his Base state everytime.FDK is a higher version of Spells while FDKM is a powerup mode.These 2 are different.

We just saw Natsu getting pissed off and angered and dedicated this spell to his father king of Flame Dragons Igneel for this purpose alone, which hints that Natsu wasn't in his base.
This is FDKM Natsu using FDKM spells against WarGod. Don't deny canon material.
Post panels of what makes them different. Side by side immediately. Appearance and magic wise they aren't any differences. so yeah FDKM Mode Natsu can only use FDKM spells.

On the other hand we know Base Gray can use DeS Spells (shown against Ur) while Gray can use much stronger enhanced version of that spell against Ur with his DeS mode.Based on his hair and markings.

What's the difference between Natsu using FDK spells in his spell? You want to know the answer? it's non-existent, meaning Base Natsu using FDKM spells doesn't exist.

 

[Char]

@Tinitus Attempting at undermining my arguments won't make yours truer. Your arguments are truer to you, my opinion hasn't changed after reading your post. I still hold base Natsu ALMOST a tier above base Gray, and I still consider Mirajane slightly superior (not a tier or half a tier above though) base Gray. We'll see when/if Mira gets a proper fight if you were right or I was right. As simple as that.

@Crimson Ice Chill. You wanted me to admit Gajeel outclasses Bradmand in phisically? OK, I'll give you that. I agree, he outclasses Bradman hand to hand. He's a better fighter.

 

[Tinitus]

@Tinitus Attempting at undermining my arguments won't make yours truer. Your arguments are truer to you, my opinion hasn't changed after reading your post. I still hold base Natsu ALMOST a tier above base Gray, and I still consider Mirajane slightly superior (not a tier or half a tier above though) base Gray. We'll see when/if Mira gets a proper fight if you were right or I was right. As simple as that.

@Crimson Ice Chill. You wanted me to admit Gajeel outclasses Bradmand in phisically? OK, I'll give you that. I agree, he outclasses Bradman hand to hand. He's a better fighter.

Sure, you can believe what you want. It's your opinion to have your mindset. If facts from the manga can't change your fanbased mind, then all the more power to you. I didn't undermine your arguments, I straight up debunked and countered them word for word, considering your content had so many flawed inaccuracies, straw-men, red herrings and fallacies. Gray is on Base Natsu level in portrayal, not hard to understand. I bet Mashima himself would admit to that much. My arguments and claims stand true here as I'm going by what the manga is presenting to us.

and if you want to be fair with yourself, then put Erza above a tier over Mira. Otherwise the double standard statement easily stands.

 

[Boomburst]

Gray didn't defeat Ur, he along with Lyon low-diffed her, once they got serious. Gray didn't put much effort into facing Ur to begin with, when he played the motivating friend to overcome emotions role and held back psychologically, mentally and physically.

and remember Gray is still has his DeS mode, which he hasn't been using because none of the situations has forced him to use it outside of the Ajeel skirmish something that impressed Ajeel which is also a feat considering Ajeel is the cocky type.

\

Protrayal is a feat. We know both are around the same level of difficulty shown to face each other. Same as Base Gajeel being equal to Cobra on portrayal on the spin off make. That's all that's required to be put on each other's level. Combat feats belong in vs thread where Base Gajeel has more feats than Cobra in that regard.

You still haven't proved that Base Natsu can use lightning spells.

I said, do you have a problem if someone says Gray and Gajeel are on Base Natsu tier?, which is different than being on Base Natsu's level. I'm arguing Gray is on Base Natsu level meaning equal level like it's a toss-up draw. Being on his tier means you can give Base Natsu a high diff fight.
Plus Gray has the slaying advantage to pound Natsu with Natsu being half etherious, this is fact.



We just saw Natsu getting pissed off and angered and dedicated this spell to his father king of Flame Dragons Igneel for this purpose alone, which hints that Natsu wasn't in his base.
This is FDKM Natsu using FDKM spells against WarGod. Don't deny canon material.
Post panels of what makes them different. Side by side immediately. Appearance and magic wise they aren't any differences. so yeah FDKM Mode Natsu can only use FDKM spells.

On the other hand we know Base Gray can use DeS Spells (shown against Ur) while Gray can use much stronger enhanced version of that spell against Ur with his DeS mode.Based on his hair and markings.

What's the difference between Natsu using FDK spells in his spell? You want to know the answer? it's non-existent, meaning Base Natsu using FDKM spells doesn't exist.

I already told you that I don't know how to show panels yet, but I also gave you the chapter number where Natsu uses a lightning flame attack against Jemma, so if you're too lazy to go look at it yourself, then that's on you, not me.

We don't even have proof that Gray and Lyon were able to beat Ur at all. All we saw at the end were the two of them using their big attacks on Ur and from the look of Ur's face, she didn't really take any damage. The only reason all the good guys ended up "winning" against the Historia was because Neinhart was defeated, causing them to disappear.

You can't claim that Natsu was in his FDKM when he fought the god of war because Hiro has already shown us that the attacks and the mode itself are completely separate. I've already provided solid proof on how the two are different, whereas all you are doing is making assumptions. He used lightning attacks independent of his LFDM against Jemma in chapter 283 and he used Roar of the FDK independent of FDKM in his fight against Zeref and his army. At this point you are blatantly ignoring canon material and basing your entire argument off of a couple of words Natsu said about Igneel when he was fighting the god of war.

 

[Tinitus]

I already told you that I don't know how to show panels yet, but I also gave you the chapter number where Natsu uses a lightning flame attack against Jemma, so if you're too lazy to go look at it yourself, then that's on you, not me.

We don't even have proof that Gray and Lyon were able to beat Ur at all. All we saw at the end were the two of them using their big attacks on Ur and from the look of Ur's face, she didn't really take any damage. The only reason all the good guys ended up "winning" against the Historia was because Neinhart was defeated, causing them to disappear.

You can't claim that Natsu was in his FDKM when he fought the god of war because Hiro has already shown us that the attacks and the mode itself are completely separate. I've already provided solid proof on how the two are different, whereas all you are doing is making assumptions. He used lightning attacks independent of his LFDM against Jemma in chapter 283 and he used Roar of the FDKM independent of FDK in his fight against Zeref and his army. At this point you are blatantly ignoring canon material and basing your entire argument off of a couple of words Natsu said about Igneel.

I looked at the panels, Natsu was using primarily fire dragon slaying magic and it's tints of lightning embued. Elemental embued is different than a FDKM spell. That was Base Natsu with primarily fire.

Spoiler

We have plenty of proof that Gray has surpassed Ul to a point that he cared more about his friend's emotions than fighting her. Plus those weren't big attacks, they were casual especially for Gray as he was in his base. Base Gray can beat Ur mid-high diff, DeS Stomps. The historia's disappeared prior to Neinhart being defeated. Stop denying manga canon material.

I want panels of comparision between them side by side. copy and past the image of the panel, it's not hard, I'm new too.

How am I using assumptions? Where are these assumptions that you are talking about? You on the other hand are using assumptions, I provided proof for my claims.

 

[Boomburst]

I looked at the panels, Natsu was using lightning form mode, and that wasn't on base.

We have plenty of proof that Gray has surpassed Ul to a point that he cared more about his friend's emotions than surpassing her. Plus those weren't big attacks, they were casual especially for Gray as he was in his base. Base Gray can beat Ur mid-high diff, DeS Stomps. The historia's disappeared prior to Neinhart being defeated. Stop denying manga canon material.

I want panels of comparision between them side by side. copy and past the image of the panel, it's not hard, I'm new too.

How am I using assumptions? Where are these assumptions that you are talking about? You on the other hand are using assumptions, I provided proof for my claims. Stop overhyping Natsu and downplaying Mashima's portrayal.

If he doesn't distinctly say "Lightning Flame Dragon Mode", he's not in it. And of course it's lightning embued fire. What else would it be? Were you expecting to see Natsu use pure lightning attacks? If using the move automatically means he's in the mode, then how do you explain Natsu using Roar of the FDK and then LATER going FDKM?

I'm using my phone to type all this, so copy pasting the images isn't working for me.

Proof that Gray could beat Ur? Based on what? We saw Gray and Lyon getting their asses kicked throughout the entire fight. You literally have ZERO proof at all that Gray could beat Ur. And no, the Historia didn't disappear before Neinhart got defeated. Go back and read it again. We get a shot of Gray and Lyon using their attacks. Then we see Neinhart getting defeated. THEN we see Gray and Lyon celebrating. We have no proof whatsoever that Ur was defeated prior to when Neinhart was.

You said, and I quote, "We just saw Natsu getting pissed off and angered and dedicated this spell to his father king of Flame Dragons Igneel for this purpose alone, which hints that Natsu wasn't in his base." All Natsu did was say a few words about Igneel, that doesn't prove anything at all. This is the only thing you have provided as evidence that Natsu has to be in his mode to use his attacks of that nature, and I'd say that's a pretty large assumption, especially when there is so much evidence to the contrary.

 

[Tinitus]

If he doesn't distinctly say "Lightning Flame Dragon Mode", he's not in it. If using the move automatically means he's in the mode, then how do you explain Natsu using Roar of the FDK and then LATER going FDKM?

I'm using my phone to type all this, so copy pasting the images isn't working for me.

Proof that Gray could beat Ur? Based on what? We saw Gray and Lyon getting their asses kicked throughout the entire fight. You literally have ZERO proof at all that Gray could beat Ur. And no, the Historia didn't disappear before Neinhart got defeated. Go back and read it again. We get a shot of Gray and Lyon using their attacks. Then we see Neinhart getting defeated. THEN we see Gray and Lyon celebrating. We have no proof whatsoever that Ur was defeated prior to when Neinhart was.

You said, and I quote, "We just saw Natsu getting pissed off and angered and dedicated this spell to his father king of Flame Dragons Igneel for this purpose alone, which hints that Natsu wasn't in his base." All Natsu did was say a few words about Igneel, that doesn't prove anything at all. This is the only thing you have provided as evidence that Natsu has to be in his mode to use his attacks of that nature, and I'd say that's a pretty large assumption, especially when there is so much evidence to the contrary.

I edited it out after re-reading it.Natsu was using primarily fire dragon slaying magic and it's tints of lightning embued fists. Elemental embued fists is different than a pure form spell especially when it's in the nature of FDKM. Against Jiemma, That was Base Natsu with primarily fire and tints of lightning embued fists..

I have PROOF something of what you can't handle. Neinhart was the not the reason for Ul's disappearance. Otherwise, Kyouka, Azuma and Kagura wouldn't have disappeared before Neinhart did. so get your facts straight instead of downplaying. Now you're going to tell me something convenient to help support your flawed statements. I can't believe you also haven't clued in on the Ul fight whatsoever. This is like the third ignorant user who hasn't clued in yet. As for Ur kicking their "asses", that's because Gray was holding back his power immensely, Lyon was in the clouds not even involved eventfully in the fight. Gray in base was holding back his power against Ul so Lyon can overcome the latter, this has already been made clear and settled with numerous times. (Didn't use any of his usual strong ice make attacks/no Ds/Demon mode) Only your ignorance is to blame for not comprehending something so simple. I wish some of the ft fandom can clue in on something that is obvious and be more alert on the context and suble hints provided to them instead of just taking everything into face value. again you're wrong especially within the context of how the fight went. Gray was made as a support mage in the fight to cheer up Lyon and get him to battle seriously, which is why he was holding back for majority of the fight, even his last attack was him using des magic on his base mode which is much different than using des spells on his DeS Mode.

Gray held back for Lyon's sake, and motivated him, . Once Gray and Lyon got serious, Ur was oneshotted. Fact. All of the historias were down the same way.

What proof Natsu was using FDKM spell in base?, there's literally no change in his mentality or appearance. So we go by what is stated in the manga, meaning Natsu uses spells of FDKM only FDKM mode, not in Base. There's no such thing as Base Natsu using FDKM spell, that's all in your head. This isn't an assumption when I'm directly vouching for what the manga presents to us.

 

[Boomburst]

I edited it out after re-reading it.Natsu was using primarily fire dragon slaying magic and it's tints of lightning embued. Elemental embued is different than a FDKM spell. That was Base Natsu with primarily fire.

I have PROOF something of what you can't handle. Neinhart was the not the reason for Ul's disappearance. Otherwise, Kyouka, Azuma and Kagura wouldn't have disappeared before Neinhart did. so get your facts straight instead of downplaying. I can't believe you also haven't clued in on the Ul fight whatsoever. As for Ur kicking their "asses", that's because Gray was holding back his power immensely, Lyon was in the clouds not even involved eventfully in the fight. Gray in base was holding back his power against Ul so Lyon can overcome the latter, this has already been made clear and settled with numerous times. (Didn't use any of his usual strong ice make attacks/no Ds/Demon mode) Only your ignorance is to blame for not comprehending something so simple. I wish some of the ft fandom can clue in on something that is obvious and be more alert on the context and suble hints provided to them instead of just taking everything into face value. again you're wrong especially within the context of how the fight went. Gray was made as a support mage in the fight to cheer up Lyon and get him to battle seriously, which is why he was holding back for majority of the fight, even his last attack was him using des magic on his base mode which is much different than using des spells on his DeS Mode.

Gray held back for Lyon's sake, and motivated him, . Once Gray and Lyon got serious, Ur was oneshotted. Fact. All of the historias were down the same way.

What proves Natsu was using, there's literally no change in his mentality or appearance. So we go by what is stated in the manga, meaning Natsu uses spells of FDKM only FDKM mode, not in Base. There's no such thing as Base Natsu using FDKM spell, that's all in your head. This isn't an assumption when I'm directly vouching for what the manga presents to us.

Gray was holding his power back immensely? That's an assumption, we have no proof that he was, and we have no proof that his full power would have been able to defeat Ur anyways. Show me panels where Ur was clearly shown being defeated and I'll agree with you.

Your argument about Neinhart makes no sense at all. Erza's enemies disappearing without Neinhart being beaten proves absolutely nothing about whether the rest of them disappeared because of him getting defeated. Compare this to Zeref and his demons. The demons of Tartarus were defeated before Zeref was. However, if Zeref dies later in the series and Natsu dies because of that (hypothetically speaking), would you claim that Natsu died because someone defeated him based on the fact that the other demons were beaten before Zeref was? My point is that nothing that happens BEFORE Neinhart is defeated should have any effect on what happens AFTER Neinhart is defeated.

I used Natsu's lightning attack as an example because he also has a flame lightning mode. LFDM and FDKM are the same in the sense that they are both modes that Natsu enters to gain a power boost. If something is true for one of the modes, it's very likely true for the other one as well. And for the record, the attack Natsu used WAS a LFD attack. The side translation literally says "Dragon's LIGHTNING Flame Iron Strike".

There's no such thing as base Natsu using FDK spells? When Natsu fights Zeref's army, he yells "ROAR OF THE FLAME DRAGON KING". When he fights Zeref, he yells "FLAME (or blaze, depends on the translation) DRAGON KING MODE". I don't know what else I can show you to prove that the move and the mode are independent.

 

[Jko]

So yo just going to ignore everything. Tell me how Bradman physically hurt Gajeel, because Bradman didn't harm Gajeel through physical force, it is as simple as that. Show me physically harming Gajeel

Gajeel is the one beat up yet Bradman has no injuries so either show Bradman ACTUALLY injured. Better yet tell me when Bradman needs fodders help

 

[Tinitus]

Gray was holding his power back immensely? That's an assumption, we have no proof that he was, and we have no proof that his full power would have been able to defeat Ur anyways. Show me panels where Ur was clearly shown being defeates and I'll agree with you.

Your argument about Neinhart makes no sense at all. Erza's enemies disappearing without Neinhart being beaten proves absolutely nothing about whether the rest of them disappeared because of him getting defeated. Compare this to Zeref and his demons. The demons of Tartarus were defeated before Zeref was. However, if Zeref dies later in the series and Natsu dies because of that (hypothetically speaking), would you claim that Natsu died because someone defeated him based on the fact that the other demons were beaten before Zeref was? My point is that nothing that happens BEFORE Neinhart is defeated should have any effect on what happens AFTER Neinhart is defeated.

I used Natsu's lightning attack as an example because he also has a flame lightning mode. LFDM and FDKM are the same in the sense that they are both modes that Natsu enters to gain a power boost. If something is true for one of the modes, it's very likely true for the other one as well.

There's no such thing as base Natsu using FDK spells? When Natsu fights Zeref's army, he yells "ROAR OF THE FLAME DRAGON KING". When he fights Zeref, he yells "FLAME (or blaze, depends on the translation) DRAGON KING MODE". I don't know what else I can show you to prove that the move and the mode are independent.

Gray was holding back against Ul immensely even in base, that is fact...,are you clueless? He didn't use any of his usual strong ice make attacks/no Ds/Demon mode, no DeS Spells and was slated in one position instead of going with hhis usual charging. This is proof right here, something that you keep denying because it doesn't suit your bias. Ul was defeated by the time of the unison raid. Mashima doesn't need to elaborate on something that is obvious.

Erza's enemies disappeared because she had the will to defeat them. Ul disappeared by the time Lyon's will was strong enough to get over her along with the attacks. That is enough evidence that all the historias were defeated mostly due to will-power and of Neinhart's defeat. Ul was defeated by the former with Erza's defeating those three as the former as well.

That was not a Natsu lightning attack. That was Natsu fired attack with embued lightning. Dual modes, are different than pure modes. Base Natsu Mode and FDKM rely on power. Once Natsu is in trouble or gets fully serious he relies on FDKM. He was using FDKM mode in both scenarios, the only difference is the magical power. Magical power from Igneel was used to fight Zeref, compared to Natsu using his own magical power to face those armies. Difference.

 

[Crimson Ice]

Gajeel is the one beat up yet Bradman has no injuries so either show Bradman ACTUALLY injured. Better yet tell me when Bradman needs fodders help

So you ignore the core of my argument. Bradman hurt Gajeel with non-physical magic, Bradman was affected by the head butt and used hax to injure Gajeel. The fact you're side stepping my point probably shows you can't read properly. But let me guess you're going to ignore this again in your next reply.

 

[Axiomus]

Gray didn't defeat Ur, he along with Lyon low-diffed her, once they got serious. Gray didn't put much effort into facing Ur to begin with, when he played the motivating friend to overcome emotions role and held back psychologically, mentally and physically.

and remember Gray is still has his DeS mode, which he hasn't been using because none of the situations has forced him to use it outside of the Ajeel skirmish something that impressed Ajeel which is also a feat considering Ajeel is the cocky type.

It was mid diff because Gray and Lyon struggled for a bit. Not buying the argument that Gray was holding back for Lyon's sake.

I considered DeS mode in this.

 

[Crimson Ice]

It was mid diff because Gray and Lyon struggled for a bit. I considered DeS mode in this.

Only struggled because Gray was holding back though :/

 

[Tinitus]

It was mid diff because Gray and Lyon struggled for a bit. I considered DeS mode in this.

It was low diff because Gray was holding back and Lyon was emotionally out of it. That was Base Gray using DeS Spells. He didn't have the DeS Markings and Hair spike when he used it against Ur compared to what he used and looked like against Ajeel so it wasn't a DeS mode.

 

[Axiomus]

It was low diff because Gray was holding back and Lyon was emotionally out of it. That was Base Gray using DeS Spells. He didn't have the DeS Markings and Hair spike when he used it against Ur compared to what he used and looked like against Ajeel so it wasn't a DeS mode.

When was it ever stated that Gray was holding back? Ur still overpowered Gray and Lyon in a couple of exchanges. Low diff would be like what Laxus did to Hades, which was stalemate and then take him out with one solid blow.

Even with DeS mode, Gray's feats are still only comparable to base Natsu's.