when someones says that Ajeel is the weakest of them all and yet all of them are relatively equal except August and Irene who are on completely different level.
The fact Ajeel had no apparent hax does not make of him the weakest Spriggan. He had supperb martial abilities, top notch reaction speed and speed, durability, strength (blocked single-handedly a jupiter), he could create sand giants, assimilate into the sand (hiding, escaping, surprising the enemy) and most importantly: he's both partially intangible and can drain your water until you die. Oh, and he has absurdly vast ammounts of MP (similarly to most other spriggans) with which he can cover an entire city in a sandstorm.
yeah I know.its weird when people say that he is one of the weakest.
a little above.he joins Jellal,Laxus and Natsu in that regard.
I'd say the only spriggan tiers are Laxus, Jellal and Igneel Natsu.
I wouldn't say so. He still needed help from Levy to survive multiple of Bradman's attacks.
Ah yeah, I meant Chapter 483. One of the websites had it noted as chapter 484.
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Ul's attacks were NOT casual. She released Ice Rosen Chrone which is one of her stronger attacks in her disposal, something her own daughter was desperate to use. What she shown far feat-wise is her strongest attacks. Gray on the other hand released only one single casual attack in IM Geyser, and other no-named ices. He was trying to hold Ul back, and motivate Lyon. Besides, this character didn't even resemble Ul in personality. Base Gray is well ahead of Ur now through CR implications.
1. Base Gray has superior feats than Ul. Gray has annointed several times indirectly that Lyon needs to overcome Ul. Near the conclusion of the fight, that was made even more evident when Gray emphasized for Lyon to reach the new level and grow.
We just had a crunchyroll implication show us that Base Gray surpassed Ur. Are you going to deny what is shown in the manga now? What has Ur shown that she's above him? All she did was release her main arsneal of power, and those attacks were still tanked. Where's the flaw? Where's the inaccuracy? Where's the exagerration from my posts? Copying me makes you even more hypocritical. What has Ur shown to be above Base Gray especially a tier? SHe was only HYPED to be Low Wizard Saint tier (A tier Erza was hyped in the TOH Aarc). There's a difference between hype and classification. Jura is classified as Wizard Saint, Ur was hyped by Siegrain to be one. All of this events describe that Gray was mentally strong enough to surpass Ur. Physically and emotionally.As many people claim here, you make your own assumptions and you believe them to be true and strong arguments, while you believe mine to be flawed, inaccurate, and even hypocritical. Well, that's your problem, not mine.
Saying we've plenty of proof that BASE Gray has surpassed Ur (as in, the Gray that cannot eat her ice, or cannot slay a demon) is just "flawed, innaccurate, straw-men, a red herring and a fallacy". Ur is a tier (if not more) above base Gray.
I'm not the one overhyping Natsu here, you are the one overhyping Gray. That they've always been classed as equals on portrayal doesn't mean it'll be that way here in Alvarez. Natsu's made MASSIVE improvements in that year gap, whereas Gray has done reasonably good improvements as far as we could see. If we do not take into account their small false brawl, which is not a feat nor a portrayal of anything at all, Natsu's base flames have improved in terms of power and control to the extent they outclass anything Gray's shown to this point.
Saying Natsu could one-shot BN is not overhyping Natsu (he actually did that!), saying Gray could oneshot BN is overhyping Gray. I mean, you're clearly a Gray fan and it is only natural that you have a tendency to hype him and defend him over other characters. I'm no fan of either so my opinion is rather impartial and based on what I've seen on their development.
Clearly, making such statements makes us less ignorant (if we were ignorant to begin with) and makes you look like you don't know what to say to defend your arguments. What cannot be defended, cannot be defended. You're making yourself look ignorant, a few users have noticed that already. Please stop doing this.
Just one point I'd like to clarify is that I'm not a Natsu fanboy. In fact I don't really like Natsu that much. Actually. I would probably choose Gray over Natsu. But it seems we have a difference of opinion and that doesn't mean either of us is more ignorant than the other. We see differencies in the facts, we interpret them differently and we come out with different conclusions. There's no need to call anyone an ignorant or worse.
He makes sense because his interpretation of the events makes sense. But he could make much more sense if he sticked to the argument and stopped spamming "natsu tards", "ignorants" and things like thatThen I'd gladly have read all his following arguments but I had to stop due to the disrespect.
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I already explained why he didn't walk over Ul. I explained that he was nerfed beyond belief due to Lyon's emotional triggers, and that too in Gray's Base mode. We have to take these aspects into consideration for the arguments. With that said, Ul herself may have not been 100 percent going all out based on her expressions and temperament. That's why I referred to Base Gray can beat Ul one on one in mid-high diff. High diff is mostly it. Whereas Erza can beat Ul mid-diff. Now if we give hype to Ul, she may give Erza a high-diff fight.I never said Gray went all out against Ur. I said that he didn't hold back immensely against Ur. Gray mid-diffed Ur. I think that is reasonable. Nobody looking at the fight should come to the conclusion that Gray went balls to the walls fighting Ur. Nobody looking at the fight should come to the conclusion that Gray walked all over Ur either. Medium difficulty is what we use to describe a fight in which a moderate amount of effort was put in.
This is Gray's Ice Geyser vs Ur's Ice Volcano.
Now, I'm not saying Ice Geyser was Gray going all out, but it does mean that Gray couldn't just overpower Ur's attacks casually. Compare this to Natsu's random punch vs Bluenote's attempts to crush him with gravity:
Keep in mind that these are the type of things Bluenote's gravity is capable of.
Gray's Ice-Make: Silver are comparable to Natsu's normal fire dragon attacks.
Gray might have superior feats compared to Ur, but not to the point where he would stomp her. Evidently, he didn't stomp Ur in their fight. In fact, Gray was arguably struggling against Ur in his base mode. Without resorting to Devil Slaying magic, which of of base Gray's spells do you think would completely overpower Ice Volcano in the same way it overpowered Ice Geyser? Then also, which one of Gray's spells would take out Ur in the same fashion as zero longsword + swan swords?
You're half right that Lyon was able to move forward from Ul, but this was not a pure emotional and mental victory for Gray since he knows that this Ul was an impostor. However seeing someone that looks like your long gone deceased master as an enemey does still hurt mentally. CR implcations already prove that Base Gray has surpassed Ur . All Gray did was hold Ur back and convince Lyon from snapping out of it. Even more evident consdering Ul released a lot of her arsenal, while Gray only released IM Geyser. This is something that is constantly being neglected. Base Gray simply has shown to have superior feats than Ul, and mentally has gained all the invaluable experiences that was directed to him in his travels something Lyon didn't have.
I have already expanded upon reasons to the main reasons Base Gray struggled. You're just taking it in face value while ignoring the implications to why he struggled from cause-effect ratio as opposed to only just seeing the panels and taking it in..Gray might have superior feats compared to Ur, but not to the point where he would stomp her. Evidently, he didn't stomp Ur in their fight. In fact, Gray was arguably struggling against Ur in his base mode. Without resorting to Devil Slaying magic, which of of base Gray's spells do you think would completely overpower Ice Volcano in the same way it overpowered Ice Geyser? Then also, which one of Gray's spells would take out Ur in the same fashion as zero longsword + swan swords?
I don't really believe that the first thing that went through Gray's mind when they faced Ur was to essentially fake getting overpowered so that he could teach Lyon a lesson. The most I am willing to say is that Lyon was an ineffective partner because he was intimidated by Ur's reputation, and Gray had to divide his attention to give Lyon some encouragement. Anything beyond that is too riddled with assumptions about the nuances of Gray's intent. There's no reason to believe that Gray was concocting some elaborate ruse to get Lyon to realize he needed to surpass Ur.
We see Gray getting knocked down before Lyon made any comment about their enemy being Ur. When Gray does talk to Lyon, he just tells Lyon to snap out of it and that the Historia is an enemy. We also have Gray saying stuff like he wouldn't allow the Historia to drag Ur's name through the mud. It doesn't sound like Gray is even very aware of what Lyon is feeling. In fact, I'm willing to wager that Gray wasn't even aware that Lyon was so deeply intimidated until Lyon started talking about how Gray has managed to surpass Ur. It was at this point where Gray realized how badly Lyon was shaken, and that's why he gave Lyon the speech. Otherwise, he was simply busy fighting Ur.
Look, I believe that Gray has surpassed Ur by a fair margin. I believe he can mid-diff her with or without Lyon. I just simply don't believe he can stomp her in his base form.
Yes, and Gray was holding back by a very good margin. That's the difference. Releasing low key spells, basic spells, holding back his opponent while talking to Lyon, not stripping is all signs of holding back and being in a stationary position rather than charging at opponent (like he did againt Silver and not Ul). Gray was just attempting to distrac Ur, and we're not saying that Gray thinks this Ul is a fodder or something, he was only attempting to assist Lyon. There is reason to believe the Ice Geyser against Ur was a weaker attempt because he was in his Base Mode, while Gray was in his DeS mode when freezing Ajeel's sands. However it's safe to say he held back on both occasions.There's a difference between not going all out and holding back. I don't believe Gray was going all out because he didn't use his demonize form. But I also don't believe Gray was purposely making his attacks weaker or taking Ur less seriously as an opponent. For example, there's no reason to believe the ice geyser he used against Ur was a weaker effort than his attempts to freeze Ajeel's sands.
I also don't buy the explanation that Gray wanted to show Ur how much his ice-magic has improved. Gray was able to figure out that the Historia wasn't really Ur, and treated her like an enemy. I don't think Gray chose not to use Devil Slaying magic for obscure reasons either. Rather, the same reason Gray doesn't start his fights with Devil Slaying Magic is the same reason Natsu doesn't start his fights with Fire Dragon King spells. He only uses it when he's being pushed to a certain level.
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Gray was not that affected by the attack, all he did was get pushed off, it could've easily been that Ul gave him a cheapshot seeing how Gray and Lyon were mentally shocked that Ul was in the vicinity.. In the translations I'm reading: Ul said, come on boys, you got to do better than that" This is similar to how Silver pushed Gray off while he was shocked at Deliora's mention, and that was extremely 10 times worse than this. You look at the emotions, Gray could've used a simple ice make defense mechanism or could've used a clone which is easy to cast considering Silver couldn't react to his movements. You can't take much into consideration on what happened to a off-paneled altercation. We simply don't know what cause Gray to fall back. Maybe he could've easily protected a shocked Lyon by getting his body in the way.
So long as we agree that Gray is probably not stomping Ur in his base form, I'm willing to let the other points slide. Which brings me all the way back to my very original statement:
We can agree on this, no?
Agreed with the first part, disagree with the second. All Gray used was Ice GEYSER and no-named ice attacks, that IS only 5-10 percent of his power for his arsenal. Unless you believe Natsu's basic roar is was him using lot of fraction of his power.
Base Gray is pretty solid, atleast on current Mira's level. Base Gray hasn't even been shown to go all out himself as he was nerfed through numerous conditions and surpassed his own teacher/mentor. You have absolutely no basis to deem his base version to be "not that strong", otherwise Mira isn't that strong then.
Glad we agree. I can only see DeS Gray stomping Ur based on his advantages, and larger scaled level attacks, not his base mode though.
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Yep we're in full agreement :
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Tbh, he hasn't gone all out on BOTH of his modes.
To teach Lyon a lesson. If Gray blitzed and stomped Ur, then Lyon would still have the fear and doubts in his mind and all of the development Lyon received will go out the window. Gray did this in order to reallievate Lyon's mental condition, and show feats in overall maturity progression.
Dragon force makes you look like a dragon that's it. While the Dragons spent multiple years making the antibodies and they said it was for the purpose of them not transforming, they wouldn't spend years doing that if it ran out as soon as they left. Nothing implies this is the case.
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After Natsu fought Zeref, they stopped to talk. During that time, Natsu showed absolutely no sign of exhaustion. Immediately after having used his FDK punch, Natsu collapsed and started huffing. Natsu was fine after fighting Zeref. It was after casting the FDK mode finisher that exhausted him.
Acnologia obviously has control over whether or not he turns into a dragon. Igneel and the other dragons don't want the dragon slayers to turn into dragons. Obviously, they didn't want another Acnologia running around. Dragon Force gives changes you physically into a dragon, and the more powerful you are the more dragon-like you become. This was Natsu's dragon force in the tower of Heaven arc. He had a few scales on his face.
This is Natsu's dragon force during the Tartarus arc. It's evolved to the point where he has prominent scales all over his body. You can clearly see that Natsu is becoming more dragon-like:
This is a colored page from chapter 435. In the bottom right hand corner, it says "Our dragon-force level announcement is on the next page". In case you think this is a mistranlation, I've also provided the raws. You can check the translation yourself: ドラゴン ・フォース is the romanji for Dragon Force.
...And what is on the very next page? I mean, Hiro has never been hard to figure out and this pretty much just spells it out. Now if you can accept that Natsu's dragon force evolves to make him more dragon-like as he gets more powerful, then that's probably true for Acnologia as well. So if Acnologia had a dragon force, what would you expect it to look like?
Igneel's magical power was Natsu's trump card. Just because the FDK spell he used against Zeref was exhausting doesn't mean that every FDK spell Natsu used was at that level. Obviously Natsu is nowhere near his limit after roaring at the Alvarez troops or after a demolition fist. If you want to say Natsu has gone all out, then you have to see how he fights at his limit. So far, he's never had the need to use more than 1 FDK spell. I don't even see what the point of debating this is. We're going to get to see Natsu fight August in a few chapters. If he uses multiple FDK spells against August, then we'll know he hasn't gone all out yet because he'll have basically just doubled his efforts.
How could having to notice the change of aura and spell name be simpler than the character yelling out the name of the mode itself? It would be so much easier if all the reader had to do was wait for the character to yell the name instead of having to pay attentions to little details.Ah yeah, I meant Chapter 483. One of the websites had it noted as chapter 484.
It's confusing because we wouldn't know which mode the character is in. Spell name is enough to warrant which mode the character is in unless it's obvious as in a physical characteristic chance in the characters look when he or she in the mode they are in in. It would be too silly for a character to state which mode he's in, when a spell and the character's aura in their intensity and profound level being more than enough. Natsu was profound, serious and released a FDKM spell against Wargod, that means he was in the mode and wasn't even close to being Base level. We are talking about a War God here, not a fucking fodder. Ofcourse Natsu would be using his FDKM mode to exert this much power, this is the same character that surprised both Gray, Natsu and Erza when he was released, and he has mountain level DC.
Are you serious? He does NOT always yell his mode when he goes ISD. When he saved Levy from Tora, he didn't announce that he went ISD,but we understood that he's in his ISD mode because of his change of appearance in his eyes.
a luxury Base Natsu-LDF Natsu doesn't have. What about Wendy in DF? Does she yell out her mode?
Because he would too much for Natsu to be using it without pushing and extending himself to the new level. You think Base Natsu can handle Igneel the king of dragons and a top tier in his base mode? That is overvaluing Natsu and hyping him too much. We know he spent 10 months unleashing that level of power in his FDKM mode. It's unrealistic to expect him to use Igneel's magical reserves in his base mode. The simple matter is Natsu used LFDM mode from the start of the match when he wrapped and revealed his dragon eblem signifying the essense of Igneel's MP being distributed in him. Natsu announcing LFDM Mode means he's going to pour all of his+Igneel's magical reserves into taking Zeref down. That's all there is to it.
It does matter. There needs to be hints of compatibility for two elements to reach for a character to enter a mode. Pure mode like fire doesn't need to expand upon.
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Yeah it's hard for you to understand because of several reasons. Ul's attacks were NOT casual. She released Ice Rosen Chrone which is one of her stronger attacks in her disposal, something her own daughter was desperate to use. What she shown far feat-wise is her strongest attacks. Gray on the other hand released only one single casual attack in IM Geyser, and other no-named ices. He was trying to hold Ul back, and motivate Lyon. Besides, this character didn't even resemble Ul in personality. Base Gray is well ahead of Ur now through CR implications.
Ul was only hyped to be Wizard Saint tier by an outsider, not classified as such. She has shown no feats where it's indicated that she's even in Wizard saint. Her best feats were against a guy who was holding back his power by a very good margin and not going all out, and a guy who was emotionally out of it. Current Base Gray>GMG Mira. Tartaros Base Gray and Tartaros Mira were on the same level as each other in feats. There's no exaggeration in that, if there is you need to have proof for the statements you make.
Greater size and reach doesn't indicate greater attack potency.
1. Base Gray has superior feats than Ul. Gray has annointed several times indirectly that Lyon needs to overcome Ul. Near the conclusion of the fight, that was made even more evident when Gray emphasized for Lyon to reach the new level and grow.
2. He was more focused on getting Lyon to overcome the hurdle rather than fighting Ur because Lyon had no confidence in himself. Was he serious in doing that? Ofcourse. Was he serious in fighting Ur? Not really especially when he all did was launch one of his weaker spells in his arsenal (Geyser) and tanked all of Ur's hits.
3. I agree, Longsword is one of his best spells in his Base mode using DeS, but he oneshotted her (with Lyon's assistance). Had both of them gone seriously even in their respective base modes, this would've been a low diff fight for them.
4. He didn't solo in his Base mode for preferences only, he was more interested in getting Lyon to do some of the work for character development purposes rather than solo Ul. He coulve easily told Lyon to back off and let him take care of it. Stripping is a sign of being serious. Neither Gray nor Lyon stripped at all when they fought Ur. When Gray stripped he oneshotted Rufus. Which adds ammo to my claim that Gray was holding back immensely in his base mode.
Yes, this essentially implies that Base Gray has surpassed Ul. Do you agree or deny that Base Gray can defeat Ur? Let's reach a middle ground here for argument sakes, would you willing to accept low-mid difficulty to how the fight was reached?
Many people? No. One person counts to many people now. My post wasn't full on assumptions, there were facts, proof, and common sense laid upon them. Your statements consisted of exaggeration, double standard, and downright hypocritical. It is your own problem, unless you don't care what all people think about your own opinion and/or bias.
We just had a crunchyroll implication show us that Base Gray surpassed Ur. Are you going to deny what is shown in the manga now? What has Ur shown that she's above him? All she did was release her main arsneal of power, and those attacks were still tanked. Where's the flaw? Where's the inaccuracy? Where's the exagerration from my posts? Copying me makes you even more hypocritical. What has Ur shown to be above Base Gray especially a tier? SHe was only HYPED to be Low Wizard Saint tier (A tier Erza was hyped in the TOH Aarc). There's a difference between hype and classification. Jura is classified as Wizard Saint, Ur was hyped by Siegrain to be one. All of this events describe that Gray was mentally strong enough to surpass Ur. Physically and emotionally.
We just had them protrayed to be equals based on their own skirmish and the level of difficulty they had with each other (with Gray getting a extra shot in to the face of Natsu), that is not overhyping. That is you overhyping Natsu by denying what is shown in the manga. You seemly don't seem to understand the difference between portrayal and combat feats. Natsu has superior combat feats, but one on one he is not shown to have the superior portrayal one against the other. Protrayal itself can be considered a feat. How is Gray and Natsu classsing with each other not a feat or portrayal. Do you even know what portrayal is? Part of Natsu's large level improvement in his flames can be a byproduct of Igneel's inheritance.
You on the other hand are also overhyping Mira by somehow accepting her to be on Erza's level through portrayal, when realistically that's not the case. Mira doesn't even the portrayal of being on Erza's level anymore. That is made evident in the Tartaros arc. On the other hand we have proof that Gray was portrayed to be on Natsu's level through their skirmish and character statements. Spmehow you can accept Mira being Erza's equal, and yet can't accept Gray being Natsu's level??? That's double standard applied and hypocritical from bias. Gray can based on portrayal with Natsu since they are in the higher bound in rep here. Gray was always said to be equal to Natsu, we even had Natsu's closest friend confirm this. Erza surpassed Mirajane when the latter didn't have magic. .Erza has more offensive feats than Mira does. Erza has portrayal of being offensive oriented than Mira does. The comparison isn't even close.
We can use this analogy considering there more feats of portrayal between Natsu and Gray than they are of Mira and Erza. We recently had Gray and Natsu stalemate each other at the same level of difficulty, compared to Erza simply overshadowing Mira. and then we have the whole Gray vs Natsu (END) confrontation come impasse, and the comparision isn't even close anymore, to a point that Gray vs Natsu's portrayal is leagues and tiers ahead of Mira and Erza portrayal.
For this one, I used an assumption. I said Gray and Erza have capabilities of oneshotting BN, who isn't shown to be a tank in durability. Yet you somehow ignored the part I made about Erza for for some reason. There's a chance that they can do so. BN seeminly has been a regression, considering his age. Tenrou Bluenote>>>>>>Current Bluenote.
Referring to someone who doesn't clue in the mental and physical aspects of the fight as ignorant doesn't make them less ignorant, since that makes no sense.. But I'll refrain from referring to you as ignorant and calling out the fanboys from now on based on the mod's warnings as I respect the mods here. Calling someone ignorant doesn't make one ignorant. The people that I'm arguing with were also deemed ignorant was certain, few people noticed that already, so don't tell me that.
Character preference has no bearing to do with how you feel about the strength of the characters. I also gave acknowledgement to Erza, and Gajeel as being on Natsu's level as well. Mira on the other hand isn't on their level. As I said I'll refrain for making the ignorance claims to make it easy on the mods.
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I already explained why he didn't walk over Ul. I explained that he was nerfed beyond belief due to Lyon's emotional triggers, and that too in Gray's Base mode. We have to take these aspects into consideration for the arguments. With that said, Ul herself may have not been 100 percent going all out based on her expressions and temperament. That's why I referred to Base Gray can beat Ul one on one in mid-high diff. High diff is mostly it. Whereas Erza can beat Ul mid-diff. Now if we give hype to Ul, she may give Erza a high-diff fight.
Ofcourse, you wouldn't say that. No one should even reach that conclusion considering Ice Geyser is one of Gray's weakest attacks in his arsenal, and is a basic casual ice move. Had Gray used something that wasn't a basic ice spell, he could've easily overpowered Ice Make Volcano.
I'd put them above the direct combatants like Wahl, Ajeel etc but they lose to Bradman ( cannot counter his particles or his several hax magics), Brandish (can shrink them), and definitely below Dimaria < no explanation needed.
Just like @atomic_2000 said, healthy Laxus and Jellal should be mid-tier spriggan level. They could defeat some, but would be overwhelmed by some. They are very strong and may have MP reserves comparable to those of Spriggan, but they have no hax. Anyone with hax could pretty much defeat them...
I'm talking general Spriggan level. I'm not talking specifics because that makes it irrelevant as no one is going to defeat Bradman or Dimaria unless they have a specific counter. It's like saying that Erza and Lucy aren't on or above "Spriggan's squad level" because they can't beat Marin due to his hax. Laxus and Jellal's general power level is above every standard Spriggan.
I don't agree with that. Laxus and Jellal are not above every standard Spriggan, they're just spriggan tier, assuming you only consider "non-standard" August, Irene, Dimaria, Brandish or Bradman. God Serena is "standard" if that's what you mean, and is clearly above Laxus in my opinion.
