Discussion Criticism Thread

[Isaiah Thomas]

I say Goddess leader was the strongest being back. If Meliodas was stronger than s/he he and the Demon King could of taken care off the entire Goddesess clan themselves. Instead they had to settle for a truce between there clans. He's also only refered to as the strongest Demon not being.

Idk about that because think about it base on this Flashback the Goddess did a 180 concerning the Demons how do we go from exterminating all Demons 2 sacrifice are own bodies 2 seal them. That don't make sense especially since the DK was dead & Meliodas had defected there was nothing stopping the Goddess & their allies from wiping away the Demons unless something forces the Goddess leader 2 order them 2 do it.

What if Elizabeth is actually the Goddess leader daughter & when she died the Leader could of had the Demons sealed 2 prevent further deaths.

Or

Elizabeth died Meliodas went bat shit crazy & threaten 2 kill the Goddess leader unless they sealed the Demons & stop fighting.

 

[Gaggen]

Meliodas most likely should be on par with the strongest archangel. Because meliodas is a commandment and his counterpart should be an archangel. Meliodas is never strong like dk. He cant create commandments like him and recover his prime power by himself. Even he is scared of the dk in the purgatory. The reason dolor said he could have took the throne because the dk was defeated by them trio and only he is left after the commandments were sealed. I wont claim him to be on par with dk since none of them are afraid of him including the godesses. They look at him nothing more than a filth.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 2, 2017 ---

Idk about that because think about it base on this Flashback the Goddess did a 180 concerning the Demons how do we go from exterminating all Demons 2 sacrifice are own bodies 2 seal them. That don't make sense especially since the DK was dead & Meliodas had defected there was nothing stopping the Goddess & their allies from wiping away the Demons unless something forces the Goddess leader 2 order them 2 do it.

What if Elizabeth is actually the Goddess leader daughter & when she died the Leader could of had the Demons sealed 2 prevent further deaths.

Or

Elizabeth died Meliodas went bat shit crazy & threaten 2 kill the Goddess leader unless they sealed the Demons & stop fighting.

Lmao you speak as if he is powerful enough to take them down. Even nerobasta does not acknowledge his presence or even ludoshell...... and there are three more who are probably stronger than him. He may threaten them all he want, in the end he is just a tool used in war......

 

[Isaiah Thomas]

Meliodas most likely should be on par with the strongest archangel. Because meliodas is a commandment and his counterpart should be an archangel. Meliodas is never strong like dk. He cant create commandments like him and recover his prime power by himself. Even he is scared of the dk in the purgatory. The reason dolor said he could have took the throne because the dk was defeated by them trio and only he is left after the commandments were sealed. I wont claim him to be on par with dk since none of them are afraid of him including the godesses. They look at him nothing more than a filth.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 2, 2017 ---

Lmao you speak as if he is powerful enough to take them down. Even nerobasta does not acknowledge his presence or even ludoshell...... and there are three more who are probably stronger than him. He may threaten them all he want, in the end he is just a tool used in war......

The DK called Meliodas "the most powerful demon" https://jaiminisbox.com/reader/read/nanatsu_no_taizai/en/0/183/page/6

Who said Meliodas can't recover his prime power himself. He don't want 2 which why he said this

Spoiler

If look like Meliodas is more afraid of turning back into his old self then he is of the DK

Spoiler

Fraudrin wasn't scared of Meliodas either until he realized Meliodas was out of his league.

Spoiler

Derrière wasn't scared of Meliodas either until he almost killed her.

Spoiler

 

[kkck]

Meliodas most likely should be on par with the strongest archangel. Because meliodas is a commandment and his counterpart should be an archangel. Meliodas is never strong like dk. He cant create commandments like him and recover his prime power by himself. Even he is scared of the dk in the purgatory. The reason dolor said he could have took the throne because the dk was defeated by them trio and only he is left after the commandments were sealed. I wont claim him to be on par with dk since none of them are afraid of him including the godesses. They look at him nothing more than a filth.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 2, 2017 ---

Lmao you speak as if he is powerful enough to take them down. Even nerobasta does not acknowledge his presence or even ludoshell...... and there are three more who are probably stronger than him. He may threaten them all he want, in the end he is just a tool used in war......

I don't think there necessarily is an equivalency between archangels and demons. There could be many other factors that come into play here. I mean, an equivalency between them but there being only 4 archangels but 10 commandments seems weird. The implication so that is that a given archangel is stronger than basically any of the current commandments... PL wise deriere is past the 50k mark and even then moonspiet was wary of them. Odds are that the entirety of the 10 commandments were require to offset the 4 archangels. In case meliodas could actually take on an archangel then the implication here would be that it would take about 3 commandments to take on the others. Which kinda makes sense considering what we have seen Pl wise so far. Meliodas at 3.3 k was able to handle gilthunder, hendricksen and vivian after all. If the archangels are above the 70k mark it would make more than perfect sense for a single one to be able to handle commandments like that, even the likes of estarosa or zeldris.

I don't think their attitude toward meliodas or other demons is a reflection of how they feel about their strength. That would be effectively stupid and incoherent with how they have acted. I mean, if they thought the strength of demons was filth then they wouldn't have done what they have done so far to deal with them. We have seen the goddesses ally with the other 3 clans and more importantly plan their attacks against the demon clan. Even now they planned to lure them in and ambush them while they were in anger and can receive backup from the other clans. Those are not quite the actions of people who don't fear the enemy. Otherwise it would have made more sense to simply go to the demon kingdom or whatever and crush them like the bugs they are. They look at mel as they do any other demon but they also seem to very well recognize their strength.

Also worth noting, there is no evidence yet that meliodas, dolor and gloxinia killed the demon king. I would think that if such a thing had happened then the other demons would have acknowledged it by now.

 

[Gaggen]

I don't think there necessarily is an equivalency between archangels and demons. There could be many other factors that come into play here. I mean, an equivalency between them but there being only 4 archangels but 10 commandments seems weird. The implication so that is that a given archangel is stronger than basically any of the current commandments... PL wise deriere is past the 50k mark and even then moonspiet was wary of them. Odds are that the entirety of the 10 commandments were require to offset the 4 archangels. In case meliodas could actually take on an archangel then the implication here would be that it would take about 3 commandments to take on the others. Which kinda makes sense considering what we have seen Pl wise so far. Meliodas at 3.3 k was able to handle gilthunder, hendricksen and vivian after all. If the archangels are above the 70k mark it would make more than perfect sense for a single one to be able to handle commandments like that, even the likes of estarosa or zeldris.

I don't think their attitude toward meliodas or other demons is a reflection of how they feel about their strength. That would be effectively stupid and incoherent with how they have acted. I mean, if they thought the strength of demons was filth then they wouldn't have done what they have done so far to deal with them. We have seen the goddesses ally with the other 3 clans and more importantly plan their attacks against the demon clan. Even now they planned to lure them in and ambush them while they were in anger and can receive backup from the other clans. Those are not quite the actions of people who don't fear the enemy. Otherwise it would have made more sense to simply go to the demon kingdom or whatever and crush them like the bugs they are. They look at mel as they do any other demon but they also seem to very well recognize their strength.

Also worth noting, there is no evidence yet that meliodas, dolor and gloxinia killed the demon king. I would think that if such a thing had happened then the other demons would have acknowledged it by now.

I never said demons power are filth i only mention about meliodas. No one mentioned about the three killing the demon king. I just said he was defeated by them and yes to defeat someone doesnt mean you have to kill that individual.....so please
And kindly mention what are you trying to tell after typing such a long essay since i find it directionless......
Yeap godesses are stupid and thats why the demons lost instead of them......

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 3, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 3, 2017 ---

The DK called Meliodas "the most powerful demon" https://jaiminisbox.com/reader/read/nanatsu_no_taizai/en/0/183/page/6

Who said Meliodas can't recover his prime power himself. He don't want 2 which why he said this

Spoiler

If look like Meliodas is more afraid of turning back into his old self then he is of the DK

Spoiler

Fraudrin wasn't scared of Meliodas either until he realized Meliodas was out of his league.

Spoiler

Derrière wasn't scared of Meliodas either until he almost killed her.

Spoiler

I dont see derrerie being scared . She still acknowldege him to be lower than her. Meliodas being shit scared huh. Then how was he suppose to protect her. He himself said he needed that power to protect her. He said he has been killed before and and tried killing himself then why isnt he in his prime yet . Where was all those powers when liz died???? He couldnt get them or he didnt want to get them??? Only fodder fraudrin was. The demon king di call him the most powerful demon after all that power bestowed upon him including the very commandment the dk created. Then why was he shitting bricks in the purgatory after seeing his beloved father???

 

[overlordpringerx]

This entire flashback arc was a mess. What started of as a creative way to improve the skill of my two favorite characters has become a terribly paced, awkardly written clusterfuck that forgot which characters it was actually developing and went back to Meliodas, who I by this point straight up can't stand to see his face anymore because the way Nakaba keeps shoving him in everywhere gets in the way of the development of all the characters that need development and are actually interesting. It kind of reminds of a common "criticism" I see for Digimon adventure tri. According to some, the new character Meiko sticks out like a sore thumb and is getting in the way of the other main character's progression. While I don't agree with that notion, even if I did this would still be much much worse. Here are some differences. Meiko is a new character and needs time for the cast and audience to get to know her. Meliodas was literally there since the beginning of the manga, has had tons of screen time and moments of glory, and is in-universe so strong that it's rarely even that cool to see him fight. Yeah, his fights are really well-drawn, but there are rarely any stakes. In Digimon adventure Tri, when she is involved with another character's development, it's usually only for a very short time, and the focus is still kept on the developing character. Here, especially in this arc, Meliodas completely hijacks the character arc only to show us what we already know because that information has been practically spoonfed to us. In Digimon adventure Tri, Meiko sometimes helps other characters, but she usually has to learn something from them. Meliodas? Pff, nah, let's make him be right all the time, be the one to teach everybody lessons, and never be the one learning from somebody else. And yeah, don't tell me he had to learn anything to control his wrath at the druid's place, because we literally didn't see what made him actually be able to overcome it.

Seriously, the amount of times we got to see Meliodas pop up when he shouldn't is absolutely ridiculous. Oh, Ban is going on a quest with King and Jericho? Let's shift the attention back to Meliodas for several chapters and only later go to Ban and King with the much more interesting story. Here it was ok, since we also got the Diane and Elizabeth chapter and later a lot of good chapters in the fairy king's forest. What? We need a training arc and King is angry at Hendricksen? Let Meliodas be the overly simpathetic simpleton to tell King he should forgive the goatman. What Meliodas is dead? Surely this means the characters will have to improve themselves and show their worth against the commandments since they can't depend on hi-oh wait, they're still almost all useless except Escanor because he's a walking plot device and Merlin because of her power to make the author have to come up with a convenient way to make her useful again even if it makes no logical or even magical sense in the story, only makes her look dumber and her ability is so broken and convenient that even Fraudrin called her out on that, and Meliodas recovers in just a few chapters with no epic quest or anything to bring him back, and kills 3 commandments way too easily. But oh no! He "lost control" against Fraudrin and that could endanger the people he doesn't want to hurt! Poor baby! Yeah, that wasn't losing control.

Spoiler

THESE guys lost control. Meliodas just had a little sadistic streak.

Come to think of it, King a is made to see things from different perspectives several times, but what about Meliodas? When was the last time he had to come to the shocking realization of what other characters had to go through? Did he ever stop and think that even with the knowledge of Hendricksen being manipulated, the fact that he made king relive the horrors of killing his best friend twice was just too much to bear? Did he ever think that maybe he shouldn't keep following Elizabeth around whenever she died instead of letting her live a life that didn't necessarily involve him? He didn't even discuss the plan to scatter the commandments with anybody until he had already done it! What if somebody had a better idea, or thought of ways it could backfire(which it did, horribly)?
I know, I complain about Meliodas all the time, but this character just gets worse and worse!

 

[overlordpringerx]

No they wouldn't. Dolor and Gloxinia weren't there when Elizabeth was arguing with Derr. They only came in to see Elizabeth on the ground, bruised, with an arc covering her. The only thing she says is, "I couldn't stop it". We would have NEVER found out what had happened with Derr without that flashback.

Ok, I remembered something wrong, but you know what? This could have easily been fixed by... Making them be there! Them being there would make complete sense and it would still show what happened.

I disagree. I have found this whole arc pretty engaging, and much better than the attack on Brittania one.

Ok, good for you, I think it might have done that for me too if it was kept the way it started, building up mystery and getting to see King and Diane's view on all of this, but unfortunately it was filled with reveals I already knew or saw coming a mile away, characters that the story gave me no reason to care about, and fights that I actually skipped over due to how little I cared

Bring it bruh

IT IS ON!

Consistency: I would like to draw you back to my claim that Nakaba is internally consistent. King and Diane, per the rules that Dolor and Gloxinia have set up, do not know anything that they should not know. But your argument is that Nakaba is being inconsistent by showing the readers too much, so he is being externally inconsistent (we the readers know more than we should).

Does this make sense? At which point do the readers know too much? Keep in mind this whole board has been clamoring for more information about the Goddess clan for the past couple of months. But I have evidence that this is false. I draw your attention to the Vampires of Edinburgh chapter, which was a set up to introduce us to Escanor, and the fact that Mel has a brother who has a hot vampire girlfriend. What makes that flashback any different than this one? We see multiple sides of the fight with the vampires, Nakaba goes back and forth from battle to battle. He has the same consistency as this flashback, in that no one knew about Mel's issue with Gelda since no one else saw it. This kind of style of flashback is not new.

The fact that those scenes show up in this "flashback" is already an inconsistency in itself, since Dolor and Gloxinia weren't there to witness it and even if they later found out about it, which I highly doubt for most of them, them being so long and detailed makes no sense, because Dolor and Gloxinia would only have a very very very vague idea of how that played out and King and Diane would have learned about those events later anyway. Showing them as if they happened in real time makes no sense in a simulation based around pure memories, especially if the one experiencing the simulation don't know until later.

As for the Edinburgh chapter, that wasn't a flashback in anyway, it was a chapter set before the events of the main story, which means it wasn't bound to anybody's perspective. The most correct term for it would be prequel.

Immersion: See above. No rules that Nakaba has set up have been broken. It's not always the writers fault if immersion is broken. If I play a video game and I keep asking, "why the hell can this elf character break the laws of physics by using magic" it's my fault, not the games. Don't overthink everything

First of all, completely different things. Like, literally nothing in common. A character doing something not physically possible doesn't break the immersion if they obey the rules set up in it's own universe. At most, it might break your suspension of disbelief, which is entirely different. Suspension of disbelief is when you keep an open mind about how the universe works and decide to follow it, and occasionally don't overthink it when something somewhat unrealistic happens for which the universe didn't give a direct explanation relative to reality. Like how humans are able to knock over buildings in one piece. Immersion on the other hand is about emotional investment and getting sucked in, on a much deeper level to the point where, like I said, almost "forget" it's not really happenning. This is why plot twists are so well rememebered when they work and why we grow to actually care for characters that are actually just drawings. And an important part of immersion is a minimum degree of uncertainty and in-universe realism, aswell as point of view. Giving away too much information just makes everything too predictable and shifting perspective in a flashback completely shatters the immersion because flashbacks are, like I said, told from point of view, meaning you can't suddenly shift to another character's point of view within the flashback, because it makes no logical, magical, or any kind of -ical sense! Especially not the way it's done here, where it's treated as a real life moment. It's like in the TFS videos where sometimes characters ask "how do you know about the parts you weren't there for?". I don't usually like to apply rules to any kind of narrative, don't get me wrong, but that doesn't mean that you can just put in information in places and ways that make no sense just for convenience's sake.

It's unfair to compare Avatar to this since one is a tv show with approx 50 episodes and the other is a weekly manga. They have different goals and different formats. But if you want to compare kinds of flashbacks, see something like 100 Years of Solitude, where the characters constantly go back and forth between flashbacks. This is not uncommon in literature.

It's not unfair because I'm only comparing one flashback two the other, not any the series in their entirety. There is an episode where Aang learns about how the war started as told to him by Roku, while Zuko reads Sozin's memoirs, and the episode keeps shifting, but not simply perspectives, but flashbacks entirely, allowing the viewer to know learn about both sides at the same time in a way that makes sense, because instead of what Taizai has been doing, showing us moments in a flashback that nobody "telling" the flashback (Dolor and Gloxinia)saw and even the "listener"(King and Diane) is completely unaware of, we got two different people learning about two different viewpoints, each view point only showing what it was able to see, it kept it's consistency since the only parts that those flashbacks had in common where those where the Roku and Sozin were at the same place at the same time.

I already explained why you are seeing things King and Diane did not. You are not King and Diane.

That is a terrible excuse and it doesn't even work with flashbacks, because they're just visual representations of character's memories and experiences, not in-universe objective real-time events.

Y'know , not every part of every story has to have a big twist. That would get boring after awhile. Immersion does not just have to be twists but sometimes in storytelling you just have to explain what happened. Personally, I would get annoyed if every fucking flashback was really a situation of, "UH OH you thought it was this character or thing but it's really this!" There is a time for that kind of stuff, but sometimes you just want to know what happened without any tricks.

I'm not saying it needs a big twist, I'm saying feeding the audience all the information will make the narrative predictable and hard to get invested in since there will be almost no emotional value.

 

[Xenotosgolgia]

No they wouldn't. Dolor and Gloxinia weren't there when Elizabeth was arguing with Derr. They only came in to see Elizabeth on the ground, bruised, with an arc covering her. The only thing she says is, "I couldn't stop it". We would have NEVER found out what had happened with Derr without that flashback.

I disagree. I have found this whole arc pretty engaging, and much better than the attack on Brittania one.



Bring it bruh



Consistency: I would like to draw you back to my claim that Nakaba is internally consistent. King and Diane, per the rules that Dolor and Gloxinia have set up, do not know anything that they should not know. But your argument is that Nakaba is being inconsistent by showing the readers too much, so he is being externally inconsistent (we the readers know more than we should).

Does this make sense? At which point do the readers know too much? Keep in mind this whole board has been clamoring for more information about the Goddess clan for the past couple of months. But I have evidence that this is false. I draw your attention to the Vampires of Edinburgh chapter, which was a set up to introduce us to Escanor, and the fact that Mel has a brother who has a hot vampire girlfriend. What makes that flashback any different than this one? We see multiple sides of the fight with the vampires, Nakaba goes back and forth from battle to battle. He has the same consistency as this flashback, in that no one knew about Mel's issue with Gelda since no one else saw it. This kind of style of flashback is not new.

Immersion: See above. No rules that Nakaba has set up have been broken. It's not always the writers fault if immersion is broken. If I play a video game and I keep asking, "why the hell can this elf character break the laws of physics by using magic" it's my fault, not the games. Don't overthink everything




It's unfair to compare Avatar to this since one is a tv show with approx 50 episodes and the other is a weekly manga. They have different goals and different formats. But if you want to compare kinds of flashbacks, see something like 100 Years of Solitude, where the characters constantly go back and forth between flashbacks. This is not uncommon in literature.

I already explained why you are seeing things King and Diane did not. You are not King and Diane.



Y'know , not every part of every story has to have a big twist. That would get boring after awhile. Immersion does not just have to be twists but sometimes in storytelling you just have to explain what happened. Personally, I would get annoyed if every fucking flashback was really a situation of, "UH OH you thought it was this character or thing but it's really this!" There is a time for that kind of stuff, but sometimes you just want to know what happened without any tricks.

Wait what argument are you talking about?! There was none all the stuff King and Diane missed was a fight and like one panel of Elizabeth challenging the demons and getting knocked out which we didn't even have to see. Even the Archangels were irrelevant because we're going to see the Archangels anyway in the present timeline.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 5, 2017, Original Post Date: Mar 5, 2017 ---

I keep seeing this critique come back time and time again, and it makes ab-so-lut-ley no sense. I will give you that you have a point, if this were a real flashback, we shouldn't be able to see Gowther invade the goddess realm, or so much of the fight between Monspeet and Derr vs the Goddesses. We shouldn't have been able to see Derr talk to her sister, or punch Elizabeth. We shouldn't have been able to see Nerobasta lust after Ruedecial.

Do you see the problem here in the practical sense? If we were looking at a 'real' flashback, it would have been boring as hell. Everyone would be complaining because nothing would have been answered. We would have never have found out what happened between Derr and Elizabeth, because obviously neither one of them remembers the other in our time. We would have never found out what happened to Derr's hand. We would have never found our what the fuck Indura is when it, obviously, comes back in the real time.

I will also give you that it's annoying that we barely get any King or Diane or Dolor or Gloxinia in these chapters. But you don't know a lot about storytelling. You, the reader, are NOT KING AND DIANE. They are only able to see what Dolor and Gloxinia saw, but you, the reader, are allowed to see other things that are happening. This is why they do not know about Gowther and Nerobasta yet. It's also why they didn't know that Ruedecial was coming, or what was happening until they got there. Nakaba's goal is not to give a 'realistic' point of view of a flashback, but to give you, the reader, a holistic idea of what happened in the past. The flashback is a tool for that end goal. If he didn't, everyone would be complaining about how we don't know anything, and how the pacing is terrible, and where is the Demon King, and why we don't know what is going on.

Once again you only forward think when you can find ways to defend Nakaba, but when we ask him to follow a simple writing rule that even a elementary school kid can understand you jump back to "people would've complained if he didn't show this". Can you not see the fine line between following a simple rule while showing us cool things?

 

[Undina]

Wait what argument are you talking about?! There was none all the stuff King and Diane missed was a fight and like one panel of Elizabeth challenging the demons and getting knocked out which we didn't even have to see. Even the Archangels were irrelevant because we're going to see the Archangels anyway in the present timeline.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 5, 2017, Original Post Date: Mar 5, 2017 ---

Once again you only forward think when you can find ways to defend Nakaba, but when we ask him to follow a simple writing rule that even a elementary school kid can understand you jump back to "people would've complained if he didn't show this". Can you not see the fine line between following a simple rule while showing us cool things?

There were a couple of pages, not 1 panel, of an albeit short discussion between Elizabeth and the TC providing the readers with the context of Derriere's personal grudge towards the GC and the difference between the attitude she displayed towards Nerobasta(possessing Denzel) and Elizabeth(when she recognised her). It also showed us the steadfastness of Elizabeth's beliefs during the ancient war.
While you, personally, might not like a certain character and prefer they were ignored, the basic rules of storytelling claim the protagonists, if involved in events scattered all around the story line, must be properly presented in the events that strongly influence the main plot(and their personal story line) and the dynamic they entertain with other meaningful characters, since it leads to proper understanding, by the reader, of the overall story and conflicts. At least that's how it generally goes.
This isn't a story written for elementary school kids, where storytelling must follow a stricter, simpler course and dynamic between character perspective and general context, nor for older people that eventually get to grasp more complex and extraordinary situations, where the protagonists' wholesome portrayal can be overlooked for various reasons and intentions, as well as their dynamic with most of the other cast. It is a story mainly directed at teenagers, who understand more than children, but still need a clearer picture than fully grown adults.
It does seem that the author is being preferential with which his mains gets more involvement than others, but that doesn't objectively involve poor writing, it also doesn't enter a contradiction with the devices he's using: we were never told we were entering an actual "flashback", it was we, the readers, who dubbed the situation as a flashback, thus, this "voyage to the past" can't be exactly regarded as a must see from Diane and King's perspective. As it was said before, the spell used on King and Diane is only a device meant to give these 2 characters not only a power boost, but also access to further, deeper knowledge regarding this conflict. King and Diane are not only Sins, but also de facto or prospective leaders to major factions involved in this conflict, so it makes sense why the 2, as opposed to Ban or Escanor, were directly offered more information. It still doesn't limit the perspective to them, it explains why they out of the Sins that are still not 100% connected to the war get tot travel to the past.
The soul exchange doesn't lead to a restrictive flashback, it's a set-up for a change of settings. And, for the readers' sake, it doesn't involve only King and Diane, the gods and demons, but other main characters, like Gowther and apparently a previous incarnation of Ban. Soon we may get to see how Merlin herself or who knows, maybe even Escanor, is/are connected to this whole mess. Hawk and his mysterious situation as well.

 

[Rescorlian]

This entire flashback arc was a mess. What started of as a creative way to improve the skill of my two favorite characters has become a terribly paced, awkardly written clusterfuck that forgot which characters it was actually developing and went back to Meliodas, who I by this point straight up can't stand to see his face anymore because the way Nakaba keeps shoving him in everywhere gets in the way of the development of all the characters that need development and are actually interesting. It kind of reminds of a common "criticism" I see for Digimon adventure tri. According to some, the new character Meiko sticks out like a sore thumb and is getting in the way of the other main character's progression. While I don't agree with that notion, even if I did this would still be much much worse. Here are some differences. Meiko is a new character and needs time for the cast and audience to get to know her. Meliodas was literally there since the beginning of the manga, has had tons of screen time and moments of glory, and is in-universe so strong that it's rarely even that cool to see him fight. Yeah, his fights are really well-drawn, but there are rarely any stakes. In Digimon adventure Tri, when she is involved with another character's development, it's usually only for a very short time, and the focus is still kept on the developing character. Here, especially in this arc, Meliodas completely hijacks the character arc only to show us what we already know because that information has been practically spoonfed to us. In Digimon adventure Tri, Meiko sometimes helps other characters, but she usually has to learn something from them. Meliodas? Pff, nah, let's make him be right all the time, be the one to teach everybody lessons, and never be the one learning from somebody else. And yeah, don't tell me he had to learn anything to control his wrath at the druid's place, because we literally didn't see what made him actually be able to overcome it.

Seriously, the amount of times we got to see Meliodas pop up when he shouldn't is absolutely ridiculous. Oh, Ban is going on a quest with King and Jericho? Let's shift the attention back to Meliodas for several chapters and only later go to Ban and King with the much more interesting story. Here it was ok, since we also got the Diane and Elizabeth chapter and later a lot of good chapters in the fairy king's forest. What? We need a training arc and King is angry at Hendricksen? Let Meliodas be the overly simpathetic simpleton to tell King he should forgive the goatman. What Meliodas is dead? Surely this means the characters will have to improve themselves and show their worth against the commandments since they can't depend on hi-oh wait, they're still almost all useless except Escanor because he's a walking plot device and Merlin because of her power to make the author have to come up with a convenient way to make her useful again even if it makes no logical or even magical sense in the story, only makes her look dumber and her ability is so broken and convenient that even Fraudrin called her out on that, and Meliodas recovers in just a few chapters with no epic quest or anything to bring him back, and kills 3 commandments way too easily. But oh no! He "lost control" against Fraudrin and that could endanger the people he doesn't want to hurt! Poor baby! Yeah, that wasn't losing control.

Spoiler

THESE guys lost control. Meliodas just had a little sadistic streak.

Come to think of it, King a is made to see things from different perspectives several times, but what about Meliodas? When was the last time he had to come to the shocking realization of what other characters had to go through? Did he ever stop and think that even with the knowledge of Hendricksen being manipulated, the fact that he made king relive the horrors of killing his best friend twice was just too much to bear? Did he ever think that maybe he shouldn't keep following Elizabeth around whenever she died instead of letting her live a life that didn't necessarily involve him? He didn't even discuss the plan to scatter the commandments with anybody until he had already done it! What if somebody had a better idea, or thought of ways it could backfire(which it did, horribly)?
I know, I complain about Meliodas all the time, but this character just gets worse and worse!

Spot on. Meliodas character is lame, hypocrite and boring. And all of these flaws are because of Elisabeth who's an even poorer character.

 

[overlordpringerx]

Spot on. Meliodas character is lame, hypocrite and boring. And all of these flaws are because of Elisabeth who's an even poorer character.

I actually prefer Elizabeth over Meliodas because her struggle feels somewhat justified

 

[Demonspeed]

Sooo, the reason you are starting to dislike this arc is because you think Meliodas should not appear so frequently because he already has enough scenes? In this flashback at least he didn't do anything more than Diane and King. His only important scene where he was without them was when he talked to Rou. Both King and Diane have more scenes than him. He did nothing special so far. He is THE main character, oldest Sin and one of the most important character in this war, it makes sense that he'd be here, we knew Gloxinia and DOlor were fighting with him. The Meliodas we have is a Mel who has already been converted by Elizabeth, so there will be even more stories featuring him later. King and Diane's development is still going strong.

I can understand being annoyed by Diane's lack of development(even when she appears now she is so, childish, I am not sure if it's because of Gowther or because Nakaba changed her personality), but King? He got more fights and scenes than most of the Sins. Nowadays Diane is almost like a damsel in distress when he is with her. The only reason this arc might seem too long is because of the fight between the TCs and AAs, where Meliodas and the two others didn't fight.

 

[overlordpringerx]

Sooo, the reason you are starting to dislike this arc is because you think Meliodas should not appear so frequently because he already has enough scenes? In this flashback at least he didn't do anything more than Diane and King. His only important scene where he was without them was when he talked to Rou. Both King and Diane have more scenes than him. He did nothing special so far. He is THE main character, oldest Sin and one of the most important character in this war, it makes sense that he'd be here, we knew Gloxinia and DOlor were fighting with him. The Meliodas we have is a Mel who has already been converted by Elizabeth, so there will be even more stories featuring him later. King and Diane's development is still going strong.

I can understand being annoyed by Diane's lack of development(even when she appears now she is so, childish, I am not sure if it's because of Gowther or because Nakaba changed her personality), but King? He got more fights and scenes than most of the Sins. Nowadays Diane is almost like a damsel in distress when he is with her. The only reason this arc might seem too long is because of the fight between the TCs and AAs, where Meliodas and the two others didn't fight.

It's not just that. The structure of this "flashback" makes no sense from a narrative stand-point, and goes completely off-track. And while Meliodas didn't do as much as Elizabeth in this arc, he did more than Diane and King, who have done close to nothing, even this was supposed to be THEIR trial. I wouldn't mind his presence her that much if the focus and point of view was kept mostly on King and Diane and how they react to what Dolor and Gloxinia had experienced, but instead we get way too much dialogue about Elizabeth and Mel and the commandments while the fairy and giant clan haven't been involved in anything significant. We didn't even get to see any of Dolor's and Gloxinia's cool powers. We're already like 10 chapters into the flashback but instead of developing the characters like it was supposed to, it just provided us predictable information and backstory in a very forced way. This could have been amazing if it was about what the manga said it was actually about: Dolor and Gloxinia's personal experiences and reasons for joining the demon king. Had we seen more of King and Diane's reactions to many of these events it would have been more than enough, but we didn't even get that. Some people actually forgot they were even there. And Meliodas being the main character of the manga doesn't mean everything has to be about him. A character arc has to revolve around it's respective character. Sure, Meliodas can be involved, but he's completely overshadowed Diane and King. And like you said, there's still more of Meliodas to come, so there's no need to make him this prominent all the time. In fact, there's stuff I actually want to know about him, but not all these obvious things they keep showing us. It's just frustrating to see King and Diane's character arc be so NOT about them.

 

[Xenotosgolgia]

There were a couple of pages, not 1 panel, of an albeit short discussion between Elizabeth and the TC providing the readers with the context of Derriere's personal grudge towards the GC and the difference between the attitude she displayed towards Nerobasta(possessing Denzel) and Elizabeth(when she recognised her). It also showed us the steadfastness of Elizabeth's beliefs during the ancient war.
While you, personally, might not like a certain character and prefer they were ignored, the basic rules of storytelling claim the protagonists, if involved in events scattered all around the story line, must be properly presented in the events that strongly influence the main plot(and their personal story line) and the dynamic they entertain with other meaningful characters, since it leads to proper understanding, by the reader, of the overall story and conflicts. At least that's how it generally goes.
This isn't a story written for elementary school kids, where storytelling must follow a stricter, simpler course and dynamic between character perspective and general context, nor for older people that eventually get to grasp more complex and extraordinary situations, where the protagonists' wholesome portrayal can be overlooked for various reasons and intentions, as well as their dynamic with most of the other cast. It is a story mainly directed at teenagers, who understand more than children, but still need a clearer picture than fully grown adults.
It does seem that the author is being preferential with which his mains gets more involvement than others, but that doesn't objectively involve poor writing, it also doesn't enter a contradiction with the devices he's using: we were never told we were entering an actual "flashback", it was we, the readers, who dubbed the situation as a flashback, thus, this "voyage to the past" can't be exactly regarded as a must see from Diane and King's perspective. As it was said before, the spell used on King and Diane is only a device meant to give these 2 characters not only a power boost, but also access to further, deeper knowledge regarding this conflict. King and Diane are not only Sins, but also de facto or prospective leaders to major factions involved in this conflict, so it makes sense why the 2, as opposed to Ban or Escanor, were directly offered more information. It still doesn't limit the perspective to them, it explains why they out of the Sins that are still not 100% connected to the war get tot travel to the past.
The soul exchange doesn't lead to a restrictive flashback, it's a set-up for a change of settings. And, for the readers' sake, it doesn't involve only King and Diane, the gods and demons, but other main characters, like Gowther and apparently a previous incarnation of Ban. Soon we may get to see how Merlin herself or who knows, maybe even Escanor, is/are connected to this whole mess. Hawk and his mysterious situation as well.

You realize teenagers aren't fucking stupid right? I know some teenagers who don't need a story to throw away the actual interesting structure and narrative to get something. I don't know why you think because this is for a teenage audience that means it has to be predictable and badly written. Also you still didn't answer overlords question you just tried to justify what happened, but you still didn't answer his question of what type of flashback this is and how it makes any sense by the stories own logic.

There were a couple of pages, not 1 panel, of an albeit short discussion between Elizabeth and the TC providing the readers with the context of Derriere's personal grudge towards the GC and the difference between the attitude she displayed towards Nerobasta(possessing Denzel) and Elizabeth(when she recognised her). It also showed us the steadfastness of Elizabeth's beliefs during the ancient war.
While you, personally, might not like a certain character and prefer they were ignored, the basic rules of storytelling claim the protagonists, if involved in events scattered all around the story line, must be properly presented in the events that strongly influence the main plot(and their personal story line) and the dynamic they entertain with other meaningful characters, since it leads to proper understanding, by the reader, of the overall story and conflicts. At least that's how it generally goes.
This isn't a story written for elementary school kids, where storytelling must follow a stricter, simpler course and dynamic between character perspective and general context, nor for older people that eventually get to grasp more complex and extraordinary situations, where the protagonists' wholesome portrayal can be overlooked for various reasons and intentions, as well as their dynamic with most of the other cast. It is a story mainly directed at teenagers, who understand more than children, but still need a clearer picture than fully grown adults.
It does seem that the author is being preferential with which his mains gets more involvement than others, but that doesn't objectively involve poor writing, it also doesn't enter a contradiction with the devices he's using: we were never told we were entering an actual "flashback", it was we, the readers, who dubbed the situation as a flashback, thus, this "voyage to the past" can't be exactly regarded as a must see from Diane and King's perspective. As it was said before, the spell used on King and Diane is only a device meant to give these 2 characters not only a power boost, but also access to further, deeper knowledge regarding this conflict. King and Diane are not only Sins, but also de facto or prospective leaders to major factions involved in this conflict, so it makes sense why the 2, as opposed to Ban or Escanor, were directly offered more information. It still doesn't limit the perspective to them, it explains why they out of the Sins that are still not 100% connected to the war get tot travel to the past.
The soul exchange doesn't lead to a restrictive flashback, it's a set-up for a change of settings. And, for the readers' sake, it doesn't involve only King and Diane, the gods and demons, but other main characters, like Gowther and apparently a previous incarnation of Ban. Soon we may get to see how Merlin herself or who knows, maybe even Escanor, is/are connected to this whole mess. Hawk and his mysterious situation as well.

First off that discussion was nothing on two levels.
The first being emotional context because it had no impact at all and treated like it was nothing in the story.
Second we already know why so they showed us nothing.
Basically the only reason he showed us was for emotional context, but there was none in fact it was on there in the first place to setup a fight that King and Diane would mostly miss.
Also about the Elizabeth thing dude if you needed that scene to know Elizabeth would do something so Elizabeth then please don't read a mystery it'll kill you.

Now on the narrative thing why have we gotten no indication of King and Diane absorbing this information if they can still attain it without being there?
Also you still didn't make sense of the flashback in story wise which was overlords complaint by the way.
Also I wish people would stop justifying bad story telling by saying it's for a certain demographic specifically teen. It being a shonen is to justify tropes(I have no problem with those) not to justify it not making sense or spewing nonsense to try to cover it's own ass. Teenagers don't need some half assed and inconsistent story structure to understand something that isn't that complicated in the first place.

 

[Undina]

You realize teenagers aren't fucking stupid right? I know some teenagers who don't need a story to throw away the actual interesting structure and narrative to get something. I don't know why you think because this is for a teenage audience that means it has to be predictable and badly written. Also you still didn't answer overlords question you just tried to justify what happened, but you still didn't answer his question of what type of flashback this is and how it makes any sense by the stories own logic.

First off that discussion was nothing on two levels.
The first being emotional context because it had no impact at all and treated like it was nothing in the story.
Second we already know why so they showed us nothing.
Basically the only reason he showed us was for emotional context, but there was none in fact it was on there in the first place to setup a fight that King and Diane would mostly miss.
Also about the Elizabeth thing dude if you needed that scene to know Elizabeth would do something so Elizabeth then please don't read a mystery it'll kill you.

Now on the narrative thing why have we gotten no indication of King and Diane absorbing this information if they can still attain it without being there?
Also you still didn't make sense of the flashback in story wise which was overlords complaint by the way.
Also I wish people would stop justifying bad story telling by saying it's for a certain demographic specifically teen. It being a shonen is to justify tropes(I have no problem with those) not to justify it not making sense or spewing nonsense to try to cover it's own ass. Teenagers don't need some half assed and inconsistent story structure to understand something that isn't that complicated in the first place.

1. I never said teenagers are "stupid"(where did you pull that from?). I did imply there are different stages of mental, emotional and intellectual development for humans, though that should be common knowledge, and that all the age groups have a relatively established "average" over how complex the concepts, themes and patterns in a given piece of information or set should be, taking in consideration what would be accessible to most representatives of said group,which is a lot more than those some you know (but I know such people as well, it's irrelevant to the subject to boast, everyone here must know some very intelligent and well read people) and definitely less than all/every member of said age group. The reality of NnT is that it's a story written for the majority of the Japanese teenage boys, based on the aforementioned grounds, with the purpose of maximizing the delivery of light entertainment(given the array of theme tags associated with this manga) and very likely the sales as well. Your claim over the storytelling rules doesn't hold since there's a thing called variety in storytelling styles as well as devices employed for delivery's sake you're clearly dismissing, the rest of the world doesn't. And this is valid objective observation of editorial realities especially when it comes to serialised stories.
2.You should properly read the replies directed at you, you might eventually find those answers you claim were never offered in the comment itself: such as the fact that this ancient war arc was never inferred to be a real "flashback" at all, I repeat, it was we, the readers, who assumed it was, just like we assumed it would be focused on only Diane and King. It turns out it's not, their need for knowledge and a boost was the perfect pretext for the author to show us what did happen in the past. It doesn't exclude their development, nor does it restrict the exposition to them. Also the very ritual and process showed us they weren't merely showed the memories, they were literally immersed in the events, with complete ability to freely interact, whether they end up changing the past or leave it as it was remains to be seen. Nakaba used King and Diane's immersion to change settings while keeping to the story's established habit of switching perspectives between the main characters and is concurrently developing more than just these 2. Nothing new, nothing different to other sagas built around a series of (anti)heroes, instead of just 1 or 2.
3. Somewhat OT, just like one of your remarks:What does my re-adjusting to and acceptance of the general perspective and expectations of teenagers towards a shonen, action, comedy, adventure, romance, fantasy, supernatural manga(these were all the categories the story was ever associated with, I've never encountered the "mystery" or "psychological" tags on the title) have to do with my ability to read "mysteries" or other more complex or mature works?! What does your insinuation have to do with criticism regarding this work? The more you're writing about the same unsupported opinions, in worse vocabulary each time, the less you're offering any plausible angle on what we're reading and more (poorly disguised) bashing. When one resorts to attempted insults towards their interlocutor it's the moment they've invalidated their entire argument and cancelled any level of credibility achieved in a discussion.
4. You haven't proven one bit in which way is the story inconsistent, you only fall back to trying to dismiss the furthering of character build this arc is providing for at least half of the main team.

 

[overlordpringerx]

1. I never said teenagers are "stupid"(where did you pull that from?). I did imply there are different stages of mental, emotional and intellectual development for humans, though that should be common knowledge, and that all the age groups have a relatively established "average" over how complex the concepts, themes and patterns in a given piece of information or set should be, taking in consideration what would be accessible to most representatives of said group,which is a lot more than those some you know (but I know such people as well, it's irrelevant to the subject to boast, everyone here must know some very intelligent and well read people) and definitely less than all/every member of said age group. The reality of NnT is that it's a story written for the majority of the Japanese teenage boys, based on the aforementioned grounds, with the purpose of maximizing the delivery of light entertainment(given the array of theme tags associated with this manga) and very likely the sales as well. Your claim over the storytelling rules doesn't hold since there's a thing called variety in storytelling styles as well as devices employed for delivery's sake you're clearly dismissing, the rest of the world doesn't. And this is valid objective observation of editorial realities especially when it comes to serialised stories.

So you're not saying teenagers are stupid, you're just saying teenagers are stupid. And sure, different cultures have different kinds of storytelling, but there are universal ruley that any narrative needs to follow.

2.You should properly read the replies directed at you, you might eventually find those answers you claim were never offered in the comment itself: such as the fact that this ancient war arc was never inferred to be a real "flashback" at all, I repeat, it was we, the readers, who assumed it was, just like we assumed it would be focused on only Diane and King. It turns out it's not, their need for knowledge and a boost was the perfect pretext for the author to show us what did happen in the past. It doesn't exclude their development, nor does it restrict the exposition to them. Also the very ritual and process showed us they weren't merely showed the memories, they were literally immersed in the events, with complete ability to freely interact, whether they end up changing the past or leave it as it was remains to be seen. Nakaba used King and Diane's immersion to change settings while keeping to the story's established habit of switching perspectives between the main characters and is concurrently developing more than just these 2. Nothing new, nothing different to other sagas built around a series of (anti)heroes, instead of just 1 or 2.

While King and Diane could interact with their surroundings, this is clearly a simulation based on Dolor and Gloxinia's memories. They weren't actually immersed into the events as evidenced by the fact that they are laying comatose on the ground right now and clearly can't alter history, because if they could, whatever horrible things happened to Dolor and Gloxinia should they should have been able to undo rather easily.

4. You haven't proven one bit in which way is the story inconsistent, you only fall back to trying to dismiss the furthering of character build this arc is providing for at least half of the main team.

See above.

 

[Demonspeed]

It's not just that. The structure of this "flashback" makes no sense from a narrative stand-point, and goes completely off-track. And while Meliodas didn't do as much as Elizabeth in this arc, he did more than Diane and King, who have done close to nothing, even this was supposed to be THEIR trial.

What structure? It's a basic flashback with Kind and Diane in Gloxinia and Dolor's bodies. The trial began with the TC arrival, it's not over yet. What exactly did Meliodas do which puts him so far ahead of Diane and King? Tell me because I don't see it. A flashback with only King and Diane's POV would be incomplete, here we get the general context + their POVs, which will lead to the end assuming they survive.

I wouldn't mind his presence her that much if the focus and point of view was kept mostly on King and Diane and how they react to what Dolor and Gloxinia had experienced, but instead we get way too much dialogue about Elizabeth and Mel and the commandments while the fairy and giant clan haven't been involved in anything significant. We didn't even get to see any of Dolor's and Gloxinia's cool powers.

It has never been about the Fairy and Giant clans to begin with. We all know that the Demon and Goddess clan were the heavyweights in this war, Gloxinia and Dolor are the only warriors worthy of attention in their respective clans, they are important as their subjects, Gerharde matters a little more and we learned that she is Gloxinia's sister, as for the Giants, we got two characters without name. All the clans are part of the Stigma Alliance, that's what matters here. And that's because of that alliance that Ludociel managed to hide the Demons in Gloxinia's forest. We saw Dolor and Gloxinia's powers against Karmadios(King's speed and powers with Basquias, Diane was able to take his attacks without injuries and they managed to repel him along with Meliodas).

We're already like 10 chapters into the flashback but instead of developing the characters like it was supposed to, it just provided us predictable information and backstory in a very forced way. This could have been amazing if it was about what the manga said it was actually about: Dolor and Gloxinia's personal experiences and reasons for joining the demon king. Had we seen more of King and Diane's reactions to many of these events it would have been more than enough, but we didn't even get that. Some people actually forgot they were even there. And Meliodas being the main character of the manga doesn't mean everything has to be about him. A character arc has to revolve around it's respective character. Sure, Meliodas can be involved, but he's completely overshadowed Diane and King. And like you said, there's still more of Meliodas to come, so there's no need to make him this prominent all the time. In fact, there's stuff I actually want to know about him, but not all these obvious things they keep showing us. It's just frustrating to see King and Diane's character arc be so NOT about them.

You don't need to have lines to react, and they are reacting to everything, they decided to follow Meliodas by themselves(King's decision to let Rou guard the FKF will lead to something obviously), they decided to protect the TC and stop Ludociel by themselves. Even in Chapter 208, where they had less lines than most of the characters, Nakaba drew them reacting to what was happening(here for example). It's not Meliodas or Elizabeth who "overshadowed" them, it's just the fight which has been long. All of this counts as experience. You are expecting too much from Diane(as Dolor) and King(as Gloxinia) at this stage, do you think the original Dolor and Gloxinia did much more than King and Diane when all of this happened? Impossible. And if a story is heavily linked to the Great War then Meliodas's presence is to be expected. In Gaiden of the respective Sins he doesn't appear a lot. When the DK will appear, they will react again.

 

[Rescorlian]

The reality of NnT is that it's a story written for the majority of the Japanese teenage boys, based on the aforementioned grounds, with the purpose of maximizing the delivery of light entertainment(given the array of theme tags associated with this manga) and very likely the sales as well.

?
FMA, Naruto (which I don't like but anyway), SnK, HxH, all of these are shonen that display complexity and mature content, and which did/do fine with the selling part of the product.
The main problem I, at least, have against Taizai is that it never develops its good possibilities and always go the easy route. Just pointing out a few exemples, there's way too many for my taste :
1) Nabaka had the possibility to give an authentic development to Meliodas about Liz's death. We could have seen him actually evolve or rather, become more mature. I'm not saying to make him like Guts of course, but there's an infinite continuum between that and what we have in Taizai, which is lame. The impact of Liz's death ? Pointless, because she's all but a reincarnation. How can we feel sadness about that if we know for a fact she'll come back anyway ? This makes the love story freaking lame and superficial.
2) Same thing about Meliodas' death. We could have seen the other characters develop without him, specially Ban, but no. He's damned to come back again and again, so we don't even bother about his death and its potential impact on the story anymore.
Actually, nobody ever freaking dies in this manga, except fodders. It makes everything irrelevant, specially when it comes to the sacrificial aspect that could have actually made this manga really good by adding mature content : Hawk sacrifices himself to save others ? who cares anymore, he just came back. Matrona saving Diane ? Same story.
3) Freaking no legitimacy in the actions of the important characters. I mean, the goal of the TC ? "Blabla, kill people, conquer Britannia because we lost the war and losin' ain't cool specially because Meliodas betrayed us". Uh oh. And appart from that, none of the good guys seem to have any decent reason to do something. Meliodas only wanna have some legs party with Elisabeth, same between King and Diane. All they do is always to react : first arc because they took Elisabeth, now because the TC want revenge, later because something will happen with the goddesses. It's quiet lame.

 

[Yakkun]

Diane's regress into a childish airhead-type of character girl with the accompanying looks (cute/big boobs) has become more and more apparent throughout the last two arcs or so.

Now, I don't know what Nakaba intends to do here but I hope he has a plan. I am getting annoyed by it. My only in-verse explanation would be that this is still a long-winded side effect of Gowther's brain therapy, his "Lost World" gradually erases all memories and sense of self of the target. Logically speaking, this degradation of memory and personality can only go up to a certain point because there is a rather young age - usually from 3 to 5 - where we only begin to conciously remember things which are also embedded as actual memories in our long-term memory space in our brain.

So, while Diane has lost most of her memories - but instead regained new ones and thus is able to know and identify who Elizabeth, who King, Meliodas and the others are - but maybe she also kept or keeps on regressing personality-wise back into her childhood age. There isn't really much that sets her apart from the way she acted and talked like when she first met Harlequin.

And I also hope Nakaba intends to finally give her the key event which brings it all back to how it was by her facing Commandment-Gowther in this weird ritual flashback.

Whatever he does, I hope he decides to do something soon because it's becoming hard to bear to see what a joke she has become as a person. She used to be confident, proud even somewhat cunning in battle. Most of that, if not everything, is gone. If he intends to only make her eye-candy and the token dum-dum silly girl of the group it will be such a waste.

This flashback was supposed to groom and mature Diane and King yet so far they have done very little in that field. I hope Nakaba mostly wrapped up the Archangel vs Commandment and Ellie/Mel showcase and moves on to the two characters who actually matter in this flashback.

 

[LivewireToriko]

1) Same thing about Meliodas' death. We could have seen the other characters develop without him, specially Ban, but no. He's damned to come back again and again, so we don't even bother about his death and its potential impact on the story anymore.
Actually, nobody ever freaking dies in this manga, except fodders. It makes everything irrelevant, specially when it comes to the sacrificial aspect that could have actually made this manga really good by adding mature content : Hawk sacrifices himself to save others ? who cares anymore, he just came back. Matrona saving Diane ? Same story.

I think you're expecting too much here. It's a light-hearted shonen battle manga. Of course nobody will die. Even I don't expect that and I criticize the hell out of this manga.

Fully agree on Mel's death though. We all knew he'd come back, but not that fast. Made the whole thing pointless.


In his defense this manga doesn't really have any characters featured enough that aren't sins, that he could kill off, and we can actually care about.

i mean the next most featured characters are Gil, Hauser, griamore, Hendy, Jericho, and Dreyfus, but I wouldn't feel anything if they died personally. Maybe some would though. They don't have that much screen time to the extent that I'd care personally But they are the next most featured characters after the sins I guess.