The Israel-Palestine crisis

[shionoro]

Hmm, what do you mean ? It seems obvious to me that supporting underdogs is normal since they're... underdogs (so, in an implied situation of inferiority) but is there some points which especially bother you ? I mean, I can see what you're talking about since I also had debates with people being on the left wing and I met both sides : the ones who think they're right on everything and the ones with who you can debate safely. Did you imply we can't really discuss things about Israel and Palestine because they'll always defend Palestine no matter what ? (Hamas being forgotten a lot, I have to admit, that also annoys me)

What i mean is that I do not think that there is anything israel can do short of surrendering to a palestine dominance to appease the left.
There is no situation i know of in which someone who leans far left would be in favour of the side who is in power except if it is against literal nazi rightwingers. And even then they are not pro goverment but rather 'pro antifa'.
The left is always going to say 'Well they wouldnt have to kill all these people if they weren't discriminated' no matter how ridicoulus it gets.
I saw people from the left saying that about islamic terrorists and tell me that they just reacted to discrimination of muslims.
These things can honestly get out of hand. And with a conflict that far away in which a lot of media bias is against israel, it gets worse (and when i say media bias, i do not mean TV stations, as we established. I mean complete fabrications circumventing the internet without anyone held responsible for lying).

After some thinking, you're probably right, though Obama still supported Israel in some way despite his dislike towards the Israeli Prime minister.
Regarding Trump, this guy is absolutely unpredictable. I easily imagine him doing some shit in his own country (it's not really hard to discriminate people, humanity has done that for centuries now) but regarding foreign policy, I still have some hope, I don't know if it's misplaced or not. I mean, his team is probably not going to let him do as he wants. Anyway, I still agree he'll probably be a worst support than Obama was for Israel.

Yeah. Obama was actually a good politician. He played nice as a diplomat towards israel, but behind closed curtains, it was actually obama who prevented the settlement policy to get worse than it is now.
Basically, obama always urged them to keep things down if they want more support. That means on the one side, he assured them of support if, on the other side, they don't do anything crazy.
One can say that there were still new settlements being build, but i support this strategy.
What trump did is the following: He basically said: Oh well, settlements are nice, do what you want.
That means there is on the one side no objection to israel doing what they want there and on the other hand trump is not a reliable support.

I think it's kinda unfair to do this because in this conflict, they're not even equals. Treating them like equals, it's like saying to Israel they're as much victims as Palestine (well, as for now, it was way more complicated many years ago but the situation is not the same) and they're not.

I only quoted that little but i will answer all of it (to make the post less spacey )

They are not equal in power, but they are definitely equal in being held accountable.
Hamas has even more control about gaza (INSIDE, not the borders) than the israeli government has in their territory.
It's not like the attacks on israel are carried out without the agreement of the hamas or by them themselves.
We cannot condone all the shit they do by 'oh well they are weaker'.
Because what will that lead us to? To the problem i mentioned before: Israel could do what it wanted, as long as there is a conflict, they are the bad guys for being stronger.
Even if there was a two state solution: What would israel do if the attacks don't stop? Attacking another (then independend) country? Just hold still?
Would the Hamas at that point just say 'oh well, fine, keep half of the land we claim?'.
And would the things claimed to make people attack israel stop? The propaganda and poverty would go on.
I dont see how to solve this problem if not by treating both sides equally. Anything else will not lead to a solution acceptable for both.
If the Hamas think it is a smart thing to attack israel now, they will also think that it is a smart thing to do when they have their own state and more control over borders and more access to weapons.

That's why Israel should begin to be fairer - that way, Hamas will have less things to use as arguments if Israel is the first one to take a step into the right direction. And I'm sure there are a lot of Palestinian citizens who just want this conflict to end, despite their possible hate of Israel. You can say it's pretty idealistic (and will never happen) and I'd agree with you - that's why it'll end badly.

I think it is the other way round.
Because Hamas does not need arguments.
Hamas, as we established, is not held accountable by anyone, no matter what they do, who they kill, or what they say.
They also have complete control over their media. If they wanna stir their people up, they can.
So why would they feel pressured? That is why i say that first of all you need pressure on both sides and hold both sides accountable.

This is because what you need is trust. If Israel does not trust you, they will not listen to you when you tell them to stop settling.
That is why the EU has basically no say in this but the US has. The US has blocked any resolution against israel.
That sounds bad at first, but the modus operandi was usually this: Arabic states file some resolution with completely baseless claims in them (like israel poisoning wells in gaza), then the EU comes along and tells em: Oh well , dont write that well thing in and we are fine.
Then they all agree to the resolution and the EU thinks it has found a good comrpomise.
But naturally, that makes Israel think the EU is irrelevant. After all, they play the game of an anti israel coalition which does more vile shit everyday in their territories.
The US, who shuns lots of those resolutions, they got Israel's trust. Even tho obama and netanjayu hated each other, when the US told Israel to keep it down with the settlements, they didnt go overboard with it. Even if you think it was not enough, the word of the US counted for something.
They could pressure israel because they got that trust.
Because israel can, as a country, actually be held accountable. If israel would just shoot down some children, they would get an echo for that.
Even if an israeli politician just says s th that is out of line, at least he gets some problems.
That possible pressure needs to be extended by both the EU and the US.
If the Israeli people dont feel as threatened as before because they know they got support, less of the will vote rightwing.
However, they are not going to trust someone who is biased against them.

Oh and don't get me wrong: i am as pessimistic about this conflict as you are.
I don't think gaza will stop existing, but i think it is going to be an evergrowing (cue birthrates) slum, at least until another government takes over (it is going to happen once enough angry young men are there).

About the settlements: I don't think one can talk about what land 'rightfully' belongs to him if it is a conflict who is older than most people alive.
If we go by that logic, this fight never ends because both sides think everything rightfully belongs to them.
As sad as it is: Politics can only be made in the here and now. And the here and now is dictated by 'might makes right'.
That's why noone disagrees with the US actually belonging to the natives by right but noone would every even honestly try to let them reign that country again.
And the here and now has a gaza government who is by statements and actions deadset on destroying israel and sees them as sworn enemy.
Whenever Israel feels like there is a way to snatch power from someone set to destroy them, they will. Every country would do that.
The pressure i mentioned above is there to prevent actions in that powerstruggle that lead to even more suffering.
I do not think a real peace can be reached as long as hamas is in power. No matter how many good intentions of anyone else are there.
Now if we talk about US and EU actually exerting power on the hamas by taking actions to block their finances, then this might be something else.
But no politician in their right mind is going to do something that nets him a shitstorm about 'helping israel to opress them palestines'.
Which is why i find it funny to say all the west is on israel's side.
If it was true, that conflict would end in less than 5 years with israel in complete power of all territories.

 

[Onyx Darkmatter]

So the Condemning case regarding Israeli Settlements resulted in the U.S. not veto'ing this issue.
But with Trump coming to office, his administration will most likely turn a blind-eye on Palestinians and let the Israelis just obliterate them once and for all. It would be an unfortunate event, but I can see that happening while the U.N will remain powerless against Israel.

 

[shionoro]

So the Condemning case regarding Israeli Settlements resulted in the U.S. not veto'ing this issue.
But with Trump coming to office, his administration will most likely turn a blind-eye on Palestinians and let the Israelis just obliterate them once and for all. It would be an unfortunate event, but I can see that happening while the U.N will remain powerless against Israel.

Powerless? Dunno.
But you are right. Trump simply puts forward a policy of not caring.
For all he cares, the israelis could genocide the palestinians and he'd be fine with it.
And that is horrible.
The whole middle east will be scarier under trumps presidency. Simply because the powers allied to the US cannot count on him and the powers opposed to the US wouldnt be too sure that he'd intervene if he does anything.

 

[Onyx Darkmatter]

Powerless? Dunno.
But you are right. Trump simply puts forward a policy of not caring.
For all he cares, the israelis could genocide the palestinians and he'd be fine with it.
And that is horrible.
The whole middle east will be scarier under trumps presidency. Simply because the powers allied to the US cannot count on him and the powers opposed to the US wouldnt be too sure that he'd intervene if he does anything.

Well, when I said powerless, I meant the U.N. may not be able to lay a finger on Israel under Trump's Administration.
But to be honest, I don't think the Middle East will be as scary if Israel decides to just send their entire army to obliterate the Palestinians once and for all (granted, there will be widespread protest throughout the world and outcry for Palestinians' support, but I doubt that would be enough to just stop Israeli Government from preventing this tragic). Although I could be very wrong here, I don't think there's unity in the Middle East (or, in most of the Islamic Countries), which could be why I think there won't be an enormous backlash against Israel. Sure, it would generate more anti-Western and anti-semitism views, but what can they really do against Israel?
What would be even more scary is if the Al-Aqsah mosque was destroyed (intentionally or not). I firmly believe that this would initiate a global-scale riot, maybe even trigger a World War 3; I sure as hell don't want to be around if that ever happens...

 

[shionoro]

Well, when I said powerless, I meant the U.N. may not be able to lay a finger on Israel under Trump's Administration.
But to be honest, I don't think the Middle East will be as scary if Israel decides to just send their entire army to obliterate the Palestinians once and for all (granted, there will be widespread protest throughout the world and outcry for Palestinians' support, but I doubt that would be enough to just stop Israeli Government from preventing this tragic). Although I could be very wrong here, I don't think there's unity in the Middle East (or, in most of the Islamic Countries), which could be why I think there won't be an enormous backlash against Israel. Sure, it would generate more anti-Western and anti-semitism views, but what can they really do against Israel?
What would be even more scary is if the Al-Aqsah mosque was destroyed (intentionally or not). I firmly believe that this would initiate a global-scale riot, maybe even trigger a World War 3; I sure as hell don't want to be around if that ever happens...

That is not going to happen.
There is no 'ending palestine once and for all' simply because israel is divided on that topic and has lots of leftwing powers (and even center and right powers wouldnt go that far usually).
There is unity against israel in many arabic countries, but there are also self interests.
It is really not like arabic countries care for palestine (let's be honest: egypt does not treat them better than israel does), there is however some consensus AGAINST israel.
That will obviously come into play, and that IS dangerous. it is not a good thing.
it makes all powers more trigger happy without US involvement.

It is a very simple thing actually: Palestinians are a playing ball. If noone wants to play, they are irrelevant for all powers involved.
Why would the al aqsah mosque be destroyed? Why would anyone do that? You can reach all of your targets even if you are a super right wing israelian over time anyway if you want to.

 

[Onyx Darkmatter]

That is not going to happen.
There is no 'ending palestine once and for all' simply because israel is divided on that topic and has lots of leftwing powers (and even center and right powers wouldnt go that far usually).
There is unity against israel in many arabic countries, but there are also self interests.
It is really not like arabic countries care for palestine (let's be honest: egypt does not treat them better than israel does), there is however some consensus AGAINST israel.
That will obviously come into play, and that IS dangerous. it is not a good thing.
it makes all powers more trigger happy without US involvement.

It is a very simple thing actually: Palestinians are a playing ball. If noone wants to play, they are irrelevant for all powers involved.
Why would the al aqsah mosque be destroyed? Why would anyone do that? You can reach all of your targets even if you are a super right wing israelian over time anyway if you want to.

True, but that's basically a huge opportunity for Israel to simply destroy the Gaza Strip. Whatever Israel does at this point, I'm sure the U.S. will cover them (especially when Trump's Administration composes of self-interested crooks, including one who's practically a Pro-Israel/Anti-Palestine).
That makes sense. I guess that's where I get things confused that there's self-interest when it comes to the neighbors.
It depends who will come to play. I'm sure there would be enough powerful countries who will come to play, but will it be enough? That is the real question. If it were just a few countries like Saudi Arabia and Emirates, then I guess there could be a conflict (but as long as the U.S. backs Israel, it won't be THAT problematic). But if it was an actual unity where most, if not all, of the Arabic/Islamic Countries come to play, then that would be the point I can see it being extremely dangerous.

The point that I was making regarding the Al Aqsah is that I don't think the complete eradication of Palestine would be as impactful as the destruction of Al Aqsah. I'm not saying that people won't give a shit about Palestine being completely destroyed, since there would still be riots and protests going on around the world.
It's more of a scale of catastrophe between the two to put it more simple. It's a good thing nobody wants to eradicate the sacred mosque, and it would be for the best to keep it this way.

 

[shionoro]

True, but that's basically a huge opportunity for Israel to simply destroy the Gaza Strip. Whatever Israel does at this point, I'm sure the U.S. will cover them (especially when Trump's Administration composes of self-interested crooks, including one who's practically a Pro-Israel/Anti-Palestine).
That makes sense. I guess that's where I get things confused that there's self-interest when it comes to the neighbors.
It depends who will come to play. I'm sure there would be enough powerful countries who will come to play, but will it be enough? That is the real question. If it were just a few countries like Saudi Arabia and Emirates, then I guess there could be a conflict (but as long as the U.S. backs Israel, it won't be THAT problematic). But if it was an actual unity where most, if not all, of the Arabic/Islamic Countries come to play, then that would be the point I can see it being extremely dangerous.

The point that I was making regarding the Al Aqsah is that I don't think the complete eradication of Palestine would be as impactful as the destruction of Al Aqsah. I'm not saying that people won't give a shit about Palestine being completely destroyed, since there would still be riots and protests going on around the world.
It's more of a scale of catastrophe between the two to put it more simple. It's a good thing nobody wants to eradicate the sacred mosque, and it would be for the best to keep it this way.

I dont think the US will cover them.
The US will stop caring and leave the whole middle east to fight for themselves.
It might aswepp happen that the US stops giving israel beneficial weapon deals and so on under trumps presidency.

The danger is exactly that, a lot of powerhungry nations without a guaranteed peacekeeper in the picture.

Saudi arabia and israel are both on the same page if you look under the cover.
Israel does not meddle in saudi wargames and the saudis dont mess with israel. Both do not want the islamic powers arround israel (which are majorly shia) to get too much power.

Israel is too powerful to be attacked in a direct conflict even by all islamic powers arround it, simply because it got nukes and superior firepower in anyway.
Israel can do what they want, the only thing stopping them was the US, and that stops right now.
And that is not a good thing. Israel got more leeway and less assured backup from the US.
That is what makes them (and its enemies) much more triggerhappy than before.

And the maindanger is not gaza here. Noone cares for Gaza, as i said, egypt treats gaza people the same way as israel does.
The dangers lie in instable syria and partially in lebanon. Those are the regions which might be involved into israeli military missions, because that is where israel sees threats arising.
Israel has good working relations with egypt, so the border go gaza might get involved into a regional conflict happening inside gaza, but nothing international.

Arabic nations are not as unreasonable as one might think. There is no third world war incoming even if israel was to genocide whole gaza and destroy every single islamic thing inside their territory. The ones stopping them would be their western partners,because those actually have the power to do that.
Arabic nations do not have that power. You would see a lot og geuirlla warfare and terrorists, but it would not become more than a regional conflict, like that region has sadly seen more than enough.

But similarly, israel is not as unreasonable as creating problems for themselves like that.

The real danger is a powerstruggle between israel and iran with iran building up nuclear power themselves.
Israel would not watch them do that, there is a chance that they would attack preemptively.
And Saudi Arabia would cheer them on while trying to create their own nuclear weapons.

 

[Philia]

I don't think Israel will create problems by attacking Lebanon or Syria. And not Egypt at least. Sure they can keep building settlements. But what does it get them? There are 5 millions Palestinians living in those areas. They simply cannot make them disappear. With settlements, Israelis are effectively killing the possibility of a two state solution. At this rate sooner or later they will have to accept a one state solution. I wonder if it is good for Israel?

 

[Drmke]

I want to address a few things being discussed here by responding to shinoro's comments (because it's easier to quote one message so forgive me if I come off as attacking one person).

The danger is exactly that, a lot of powerhungry nations without a guaranteed peacekeeper in the picture.

How is America a "guaranteed peacekeeper"? What peace has been kept through U.S., European, or Russian intervention in the Middle East? None. Absolutely none. In fact, all evidence points to the major cause of instability in the region being a direct result of intervention stretching as far back as WWI with the carving up of the Ottoman Empire by the Allied powers. Add the Cold War anti-commuinsm and modern "War on Terror" to the mix and you get the hell that is the current Middle East as well as Northern and Central Africa.

Israel is too powerful to be attacked in a direct conflict even by all islamic powers arround it, simply because it got nukes and superior firepower in anyway.
Israel can do what they want, the only thing stopping them was the US, and that stops right now.
And that is not a good thing. Israel got more leeway and less assured backup from the US.
That is what makes them (and its enemies) much more triggerhappy than before.

What is an "Islamic power"? I'm not being facetious here either. Iraq and Syria were both secular nations by any definition before the U.S. invasion and various civil wars began. Iran is a declared Islamic Republic but has far more liberal laws than Saudi Arabia.

In fact, by any measure, religion is far more important in societies such as Saudi Arabia and Israel despite there vast differences. Neither power would last long without direct monetary and military support from the United States and Europe (specifically UK, France, Germany, etc.).

The real danger is a powerstruggle between israel and iran with iran building up nuclear power themselves.
Israel would not watch them do that, there is a chance that they would attack preemptively.
And Saudi Arabia would cheer them on while trying to create their own nuclear weapons.

And here, I would also question the notion that Iran and Israel are in some sort of equal power struggle. Iran is reacting (however one might feel about the situation) rationally to being threatened with war (and actual war if the past decades mean anything) by Israel and the powers that support it (the U.S. chiefly).

 

[swirlydragon]

I don't like Israel one bit (I don't think I need to give an explanation for that since it's rather obvious)
I am still waiting for the day when Palestine will be freed.
As for Iran, it's a relatively peaceful nation. There's no nuclear deal going on there.
The country we need to be scared of is Israel since they have hundreds of illegal nuclear weapons and have broken many international law since 1947 by illegally occupying Palestine land.
The US support of Israel is also one-sided. They give about 3 billion dollars to Israel every year. I don't know why US keeps on supporting Israel.
I mean look at how they treat Palestinians.
How Israel treats Palestinians
Israeli soldiers shoot Palestinians for fun
There are many other examples too btw.

I want to address a few things being discussed here by responding to shinoro's comments (because it's easier to quote one message so forgive me if I come off as attacking one person).



How is America a "guaranteed peacekeeper"? What peace has been kept through U.S., European, or Russian intervention in the Middle East? None. Absolutely none. In fact, all evidence points to the major cause of instability in the region being a direct result of intervention stretching as far back as WWI with the carving up of the Ottoman Empire by the Allied powers. Add the Cold War anti-commuinsm and modern "War on Terror" to the mix and you get the hell that is the current Middle East as well as Northern and Central Africa.



What is an "Islamic power"? I'm not being facetious here either. Iraq and Syria were both secular nations by any definition before the U.S. invasion and various civil wars began. Iran is a declared Islamic Republic but has far more liberal laws than Saudi Arabia.

In fact, by any measure, religion is far more important in societies such as Saudi Arabia and Israel despite there vast differences. Neither power would last long without direct monetary and military support from the United States and Europe (specifically UK, France, Germany, etc.).




And here, I would also question the notion that Iran and Israel are in some sort of equal power struggle. Iran is reacting (however one might feel about the situation) rationally to being threatened with war (and actual war if the past decades mean anything) by Israel and the powers that support it (the U.S. chiefly).

I agree with everything you said

 

[shionoro]

I don't like Israel one bit (I don't think I need to give an explanation for that since it's rather obvious)
I am still waiting for the day when Palestine will be freed.
As for Iran, it's a relatively peaceful nation. There's no nuclear deal going on there.
The country we need to be scared of is Israel since they have hundreds of illegal nuclear weapons and have broken many international law since 1947 by illegally occupying Palestine land.
The US support of Israel is also one-sided. They give about 3 billion dollars to Israel every year. I don't know why US keeps on supporting Israel.
I mean look at how they treat Palestinians.
How Israel treats Palestinians
Israeli soldiers shoot Palestinians for fun
There are many other examples too btw.

Like...I read your post, and you think Iran is a peaceful nation?
Sorry, but that instantly invalidifies all your criticism of israel.

Iran supports different war factions in several different countries and is much more oppressive of its minorities than israel is.

And you support them? Really?

 

[swirlydragon]

Like...I read your post, and you think Iran is a peaceful nation?
Sorry, but that instantly invalidifies all your criticism of israel.

Iran supports different war factions in several different countries and is much more oppressive of its minorities than israel is.

And you support them? Really?

My country has always supported them. I don't know what you are talking about?
No offense, but I research the things on my own rather than believing the mainstream media. I also don't believe that Iran supports terrorists or war factions in several different countries.
As for which countries support terrorism, well that's a different matter entirely.
Anyway, it doesn't matter if you think that my criticism of Israel is invalid since there are many people who are Pro-Israeli so it doesn't really matter. People will have different opinions no matter what.
And since you are a German yourself, it's pretty natural for you to support Israel (since most Germans I've talked to support Israel).

 

[shionoro]

My country has always supported them. I don't know what you are talking about?
No offense, but I research the things on my own rather than believing the mainstream media. I also don't believe that Iran supports terrorists.
As for which countries support terrorism, well that's a different matter entirely.
Anyway, it doesn't matter if you think that my criticism of Israel is invalid since there are many people who are Pro-Israeli so it doesn't really matter. People will have different opinions no matter what.
And since you are a German yourself, it's pretty natural for you to support Israel (since most Germans I've talked to support Israel).

I am talking about you calling Iran peaceful while saying Israel is evil.

The thing is that you obviously didn't properly research how Iran acts in the world.
If you do not believe Iran supports terrorists, you literally know nothing about iran.

You don't know about them supporting different opressive regimes, you do not know about them support terror squads in different warzones like yemen or syria and you do not know about the opressing their own minorities harder than israel would ever do.

And no, sadly it is not natural for germans to support israel, because a lot of them are not educated about that situation and wannabe leftists who wear a palestine flag to show off.

 

[swirlydragon]

I am talking about you calling Iran peaceful while saying Israel is evil.

The thing is that you obviously didn't properly research how Iran acts in the world.
If you do not believe Iran supports terrorists, you literally know nothing about iran.

You don't know about them supporting different opressive regimes, you do not know about them support terror squads in different warzones like yemen or syria and you do not know about the opressing their own minorities harder than israel would ever do.

And no, sadly it is not natural for germans to support israel, because a lot of them are not educated about that situation and wannabe leftists who wear a palestine flag to show off.

First of all, don't compare Iran with Israel when it comes to oppressing minorities.
They don't even come close. Jews are treated fairly good in Iran. They also have right to vote btw

Jews in Iran

As for Israel,
Palestinian rights in Israel:-

• No right of free speech, assembly or movement
  
• Arrest and imprisonment without charge or trial
  
• Torture
  
• House searches without warrant
  
• Assassination, extra-judicial murder
  
• No right to vote for the Israeli government (even though it controls their lives)

Source

As we can see, Iran is many times better than Israel
As for Iran supporting terrorists, it's false.
They are Pro-Assad and they have always supported Assad.

Source

Now I assume you would probably say that Assad is bad, right?
Well he has always been fighting for his people.
The media just keeps on blaming him for everything. The media even blamed Assad for the chemical attack without a good proof. The media even lied about the previous chemical attack even though it was later found out that the rebels did it.

Source

US just wants to invade Syria just like how they did with Iraq.
Install a puppet leader and take all their resources.
Make easy money during the process.
I mean look at how US trained Syrian rebels.

Source

As for Yemen, it's the Saudis (backed by NATO and US) who are killing them.

Source

Btw thnx for the good news. I guess, most Germans know what's right and what's wrong.
I am glad to hear that

 

[shionoro]

First of all, don't compare Iran with Israel when it comes to oppressing minorities.
They don't even come close. Jews are treated fairly good in Iran. They also have right to vote btw
Jews in Iran
As for Israel,
Palestinian rights in Israel:-

• No right of free speech, assembly or movement
  
• Arrest and imprisonment without charge or trial
  
• Torture
  
• House searches without warrant
  
• Assassination, extra-judicial murder
  
• No right to vote for the Israeli government (even though it controls their lives)

Palestinians in Israel have the same right as Israelis.
You confuse Palestinians in Israel with the Gata strip.
Every Israeli citizen has the right to vote:

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states, "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights" and "only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty". However a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience systematic discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or chaired the Or Commission, which noted that discrimination against the country's Arab citizens had been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, had been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and had also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert criticised in 2008 what he called "deliberate and insufferable" discrimination against Arabs at the hands of the Israeli establishment.[89]

This situation is largely the same as in countries like the US, in which black peole still face discrimination but have equal rights.

All of the things you pointed out above have NOTHING AT ALL to do with palestinians in Israel.

So let's look at palestinians in Gaza: The right of free speech was taken from them: By hamas, which killed their political enemies in the gaza strip long ago.
Arrest and imprisonment without trial? Yup, by the Hamas.
Torture? Yup, by the Hamas.
House searches withotu warrant: Yup, because the Hamas use civilian houses as bases for terror strikes against Israel.
Assaination and extra judical murder: Yup, for the very same reason, terrorists hiding inside civilian homes and shooting rockets.
No right to vote: You go and try to build up a voting station there when the Hamas are arround. i wish you good luck.

All the things you mentioned were taken from the palestinians by their own government.
Please accept that. All the things you mentioned above do NOT accept palestinians inside israel.

As we can see, Iran is many times better than Israel

The only thing we can see is that you cannot really research well.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kaveh-taheri/iranian-women-still-denie_b_9607430.html
http://journal.georgetown.edu/iran-...religious-minorities-by-katrina-lantos-swett/

Manifestations of Iran’s religious freedom violations range from daily acts of discrimination to severe punishments including prolonged detention, torture, and executions based upon the religion of the accused. By any measure, these abuses have been accelerating in recent years. In June 2009, Iranian citizens protested en masse against the legitimacy of President Ahmadinejad’s re-election—displaying the breadth and depth of opposition on political, ideological, human rights, and religious freedom grounds—and the government of Iran issued a brutal response. Since then, human rights and religious freedom conditions have descended to levels not seen since the current regime forcibly instituted its vision of Shi’a Islam after the 1979 revolution. Dozens have been killed and thousands arrested, convicted, and given lengthy prison terms; meanwhile, charges such as “waging war against God,” “spreading corruption on earth,” and “moral corruption” have led to several executions.

So you want to call this regime peaceful and better. If you defend such a regime, you really are not in the position to say anything about israel.

Let's get to your ridicoulus claims of iran not supporting terrorism:

Yes, obviously they are pro assad. What is even your point? They support Death squadrons fighting against syrian anti assad rebels and killing civillians left and right for that.
Terror cannot only be employed by anti government troops.
They do the same in Yemen with their support of the houthi to break saudi arabia's dominance, essentually,t ogether with the saudis, starving that country to death (and Iran started the war by supporting the houthi when yemen was still stable)

Here is a whole article with sources about their doing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_state-sponsored_terrorism

It is not only the US who believes Iran is funding terror.
Iran's Links to terrorfunding can be proven by many different sources.
Yet you stand here and act like they are sheep.[/quote][/quote]

 

[swirlydragon]

Palestinians in Israel have the same right as Israelis.
You confuse Palestinians in Israel with the Gata strip.
Every Israeli citizen has the right to vote:

I think you didn't look at the URL I provided you. There are no equal rights whatsoever when it comes to Palestinians (even if they are part of Israel or not)

Three key features characterize Israeli apartheid:

• Four million Palestinians in the Occupied Territories lack the right to vote for the government that controls their lives through a military occupation. In addition to controlling the borders, air space, water, tax revenues, and other vital matters pertaining to the Occupied Territories, Israel alone issues the identity cards that determine the ability of Palestinians to work and their freedom of movement.

• About 1.2 million Palestinian Israelis, who make up 20 percent, or one-fifth, of Israel’s population, have second-class citizenship within Israel, which defines itself as a Jewish state rather than a state for all its citizens. More than 20 provisions of Israel’s principal laws discriminate, either directly or indirectly, against non-Jews, according to Adalah: The Legal Center for Minority Rights in Israel.

• Millions of Palestinians remain refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and elsewhere, unable to return to their former homes and land in present-day Israel, even though the right of return for refugees is enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

This situation is largely the same as in countries like the US, in which black peole still face discrimination but have equal rights.

All of the things you pointed out above have NOTHING AT ALL to do with palestinians in Israel.

So let's look at palestinians in Gaza: The right of free speech was taken from them: By hamas, which killed their political enemies in the gaza strip long ago.
Arrest and imprisonment without trial? Yup, by the Hamas.
Torture? Yup, by the Hamas.
House searches without warrant: Yup, because the Hamas use civilian houses as bases for terror strikes against Israel.
Assaination and extra judical murder: Yup, for the very same reason, terrorists hiding inside civilian homes and shooting rockets.
No right to vote: You go and try to build up a voting station there when the Hamas are arround. i wish you good luck.

All the things you mentioned were taken from the palestinians by their own government.
Please accept that. All the things you mentioned above do NOT accept palestinians inside israel.

Argumentum Ad Populum? Check
Anecdotal Evidence? Check
Fallacy Composition? Check

I don't think you provided any sort of proof to support this claim.
Anyway, Palestinians do not have an army and the people who fight for Palestine are called terrorists.
As for Hamas, I don't believe that biased news.
Only Hamas are the ones who fight for Palestine though I agree that many of them have become extremists now. They are not fighting for Palestine anymore. They have become the monster that they despised AKA Israeli army

The Israeli prime minister says Hamas is “dedicated to the destruction of Israel.” Actually, Hamas leaders have repeatedly made clear a much different posture, one that involves indefinite peaceful coexistence with Israel even if they officially term it only a hudna or truce. It would be more accurate to say that Israel is dedicated to the destruction of Hamas, an objective that Israel has demonstrated with not just its words but its deeds, including prolonged collective punishment of the population of the Gaza Strip in an effort to strangle the group. Such efforts have included large-scale violence that—although carried out overtly by military forces and thus not termed terrorism—has been every bit as lethal to innocent civilians.

Source

The only thing we can see is that you cannot really research well.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kaveh-taheri/iranian-women-still-denie_b_9607430.html
http://journal.georgetown.edu/iran-...religious-minorities-by-katrina-lantos-swett/



So you want to call this regime peaceful and better. If you defend such a regime, you really are not in the position to say anything about israel.

I do not understand why my opinions on Iran have anything to do with my opinions on Israel.
I never said that Iran is an angel. It is still an under-developed country though it far more better than Israel and it's also peaceful.
Iran does support certain groups like Hezbollah, Hamas and Assad, but that doesn't mean that Iran is not a safe or peaceful country.

Let's get to your ridicoulus claims of iran not supporting terrorism:

Yes, obviously they are pro assad. What is even your point? They support Death squadrons fighting against syrian anti assad rebels and killing civillians left and right for that.

Yes and the rebels never killed any civilians.
Syrian rebels massacre at least 126 people
US never bombed a mosque, a city or killed thousands of civilians.
US kills Syrian civilians
US bombs a mosque and kills many civilians
It was always Assad.
The truth is that Assad is innocent and he is fighting for his people while the rebels on the other hand are religious extremists (backed by NATO and US) who kill civilians and Syrian soldiers and just wants to transform Syria into Saudi Arabia 2.0

Terror cannot only be employed by anti government troops.

*sigh*
This is the definition of terrorist:-

a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

The truth is that the rebels are the ones who are the real terrorists.
Suicide bombing, killing civilians, killing soldiers, slaughtering children, raping women, etc are their everyday hobbies.

They do the same in Yemen with their support of the houthi to break saudi arabia's dominance, essentually,t ogether with the saudis, starving that country to death (and Iran started the war by supporting the houthi when yemen was still stable)

Here is a whole article with sources about their doing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_state-sponsored_terrorism

I do not understand what you are talking about.
It was the Saudis (backed by US and NATO) that started the war in Yemen. They have massacred thousands of Yemen people
US role in Yemen war
How US and UK helped Saudi Arabia slaughter Yemen people
As for Houthis, it's good that they break Saudi's dominance.
I have always been critical of Saudi Arabia. I mean look at how they treat women there. They just want to transform Yemen into Saudi Arabia 3.0, but Iran is acting as an obstacle. I think we all can agree on the fact that Iran is at least better than Saudi Arabia when it comes to women's rights (though the media mostly says bad things about Iran which just shows how biased they are)
Therefore, it's pretty natural for me to support Iran instead Saudi Arabia.
In fact, Saudi Arabia wants a Sunni religious extremists to become the leader of Yemen and I think we already know why they want that.

It is not only the US who believes Iran is funding terror.

I know many countries believe that Iran is funding terror, but all those countries are allies of US or are part of NATO so it's pretty natural for them to take USA's side

Iran's Links to terrorfunding can be proven by many different sources.
Yet you stand here and act like they are sheep.

I prefer to research things on my own
Anyway, I never said that Iran is a good country, but it's still far more better than Israel.
That's all I am saying.

 

[shionoro]

I think you didn't look at the URL I provided you. There are no equal rights whatsoever when it comes to Palestinians (even if they are part of Israel or not)

I did look at it. That does not make it more true.
I also adressed your points about why people in gaza and westbank can not vote.

About 1.2 million Palestinian Israelis, who make up 20 percent, or one-fifth, of Israel’s population, have second-class citizenship within Israel, which defines itself as a Jewish state rather than a state for all its citizens. More than 20 provisions of Israel’s principal laws discriminate, either directly or indirectly, against non-Jews, according to Adalah: The Legal Center for Minority Rights in Israel.

Which has historic reasons. It is not like palestinians cannot apply for full citizenship. A lot of them didnt for a long time because they didnt want to be full israelis.
But they can do it, with full rights.
Acting like they had a second class citizenship per default jsut for being arab is nonsense.

Millions of Palestinians remain refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and elsewhere, unable to return to their former homes and land in present-day Israel, even though the right of return for refugees is enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Refugee is a pretty tricky wording here.
Palestinians in Jordan are called refugees even if they are children from refugees who fled from the israeli war for indepencence in 1948.
You can hardly say people whose grandparents fled from war and were born in jordania would even want to return to any home in israel.
So your number is really exaggerated.

Argumentum Ad Populum? Check
Anecdotal Evidence? Check
Fallacy Composition? Check

I don't think you provided any sort of proof to support this claim.
Anyway, Palestinians do not have an army and the people who fight for Palestine are called terrorists.
As for Hamas, I don't believe that biased news.
Only Hamas are the ones who fight for Palestine though I agree that many of them have become extremists now. They are not fighting for Palestine anymore. They have become the monster that they despised AKA Israeli army

None of the above.
What i tried to explain you was that the hamas are responsible for far more peril than israel ever was for the palestinians.
Israel treats them largely like egypt does. But i don't hear you complaining about egypt. I also dont hear you complaining about the hamas who drain palestine and make peace impossible.

What you call biased news are facts. You dont believe facts. That is fine, but dont act like your stance is reasonable then.
The hamas dont fight for palestine, the hamas fight palestine. They drove out other political powers from gaza and they threw rockets while israel WITHDREW troops from gaza. And you wonder why israel wont withdraw more when the hamas are building bases there and still fire rockets.
That is rich.


I will focus on these two mainpoints, that israel does not treat palestinians worse than any other serrounding power (and is actually a democracy) and that the hamas are terrorists.

Before you are able to understand that, adressing more points seems to be useless.

 

[swirlydragon]

I did look at it. That does not make it more true.
I also adressed your points about why people in gaza and westbank can not vote.

So you quoted my post to once again deny what I said?
Well, I have to strongly disagree with your opinion then.
I don't think your arguments changed my opinion about this because according to me your explanations were insufficient.

Which has historic reasons. It is not like palestinians cannot apply for full citizenship. A lot of them didnt for a long time because they didnt want to be full israelis. But they can do it, with full rights

Of course they wouldn't want to be full Israelis since they would not betray their nation but some of them just want to live a peaceful life, but it's impossible to do so due to Israelis slaughtering and killing many of them (including their family members).
I mean just look at how Israelis treat Palestinians who merely throw stones due to anger

“Soldiers shoot at stone-throwers because they’re a real threat, but if in Israel someone throws stones they won’t even be charged.

Source
.
I mean even an Israeli knows how Israel treats Palestinians. I don't think you (a German) knows more than him.


Btw I just found it online. Look what this says:-

Israeli lawmaker’s call for genocide of Palestinians gets thousands of Facebook likes

After reading this, I really think I am on the correct side of the history.
This lady said:- "It is a call for genocide because it calls for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who give birth to “little snakes.”
I wonder what would have happened if a Christian or a Muslim said this.
They would probably call them Anti-Semite, Nazi, hateful, etc.
In fact, they would even be in prison right now.
Talk about double standards

Acting like they had a second class citizenship per default jsut for being arab is nonsense.

I'll have to disagree with this once more since I did provide a URL to back-up my claim.
Therefore, I do not understand why you are denying this

Refugee is a pretty tricky wording here.
Palestinians in Jordan are called refugees even if they are children from refugees who fled from the israeli war for indepencence in 1948.

So what?
It is their land and it's not like the other countries are providing them citizenship either.
Anyway, there are other cases too in which Israelis deny Palestinians to come to Israel for family reunification and other things.

Source

You can hardly say people whose grandparents fled from war and were born in jordania would even want to return to any home in israel.
So your number is really exaggerated.

I do not know where you got the statistics from.
I wonder how it would feel like if someone doesn't let you come home *sigh*

Finally, there are an unknown number of Palestinians who have been expelled from or refused return to the occupied Palestinian territory since 1967. This includes people who have had their ID cards and residency rights revoked, people denied family reunification, and people who have been deported and exiled.

None of the above.
What i tried to explain you was that the hamas are responsible for far more peril than israel ever was for the palestinians.

That's false. I really do not agree with this one bit.
Here's a Palestine map over time.
I wonder if Hamas did this smh
In fact, Hamas was founded in 1987.
How do you think Israel took Palestinian land before?
By asking them politely?
No!
It was by slaughtering, killing and raping thousands of them.

Israel treats them largely like egypt does. But i don't hear you complaining about egypt.

No, that's false.
There's no country in the world that is more corrupt than Israel.
I do not think Egypt called for the genocide of Palestinians

I also dont hear you complaining about the hamas who drain palestine and make peace impossible.

As I said, hamas was formed in 1987
How do you think they took Palestine land before?
By asking them politely to leave their home?

What you call biased news are facts. You dont believe facts. That is fine, but dont act like your stance is reasonable then.

I can say the same thing to you since I also provided proof to support my claim.

The hamas dont fight for palestine, the hamas fight palestine.

Yes and I wonder who fought Palestine before 1987?
It must be hamas too.
They must have invented a time machine to travel to past and take over Palestine land

They drove out other political powers from gaza and they threw rockets while israel WITHDREW troops from gaza. And you wonder why israel wont withdraw more when the hamas are building bases there and still fire rockets.
That is rich.

I am sorry to say, but I do not believe this.
Regardless, my point still stands.
Who took over Palestine land before 1987?

I will focus on these two mainpoints, that israel does not treat palestinians worse than any other serrounding power (and is actually a democracy)

I'll just pretend I didn't see that.
No seriously!
I really didn't see that.
After all the proof, links, images and videos I've shown you, I do not understand how you could say this.

and that the hamas are terrorists.

I think I explained this in my earlier posts.
But yes, I do agree that they have become a bunch of extremists due to fighting extremists (Israeli army)

Before you are able to understand that, adressing more points seems to be useless.

*sigh*
I could say the same thing to you
Anyway, I think you've already made up your mind about this.
Now here's the thing.
If you do not want me to reply anymore then I will not
Regardless, I don't think my opinion about this will change.

 

[shionoro]

Of course they wouldn't want to be full Israelis since they would not betray their nation but some of them just want to live a peaceful life, but it's impossible to do so due to Israelis slaughtering and killing many of them (including their family members).
I mean just look at how Israelis treat Palestinians who merely throw stones due to anger

So you are blaming Israel for not giving full rights to people who...Do not want to be Israelis?
Like...Every other nation does?

So what?
It is their land and it's not like the other countries are providing them citizenship either.
Anyway, there are other cases too in which Israelis deny Palestinians to come to Israel for family reunification and other things.

No it is not their land. If anything, it was the land of people who are long dead, and even that is debateable.
De facto, most of these so called refugees do not want to go back to israel, but are used as a number to discredit israel. That is dishonest.

I do not know where you got the statistics from.
I wonder how it would feel like if someone doesn't let you come home *sigh*

It simply is not their home.

That's false. I really do not agree with this one bit.
Here's a Palestine map over time.
I wonder if Hamas did this smh
In fact, Hamas was founded in 1987.
How do you think Israel took Palestinian land before?
By asking them politely?
No!
It was by slaughtering, killing and raping thousands of them.

Oh, and why do they decline? Maybe due to the wars they led against Israel, time after time? Because Israel accepted the UN plan.
The arabs didnt and instantly attacked.
So excuse me if i cannot really take it serious when they cry crocodile tears about now not having the borders of the UN plan.

No, that's false.
There's no country in the world that is more corrupt than Israel.
I do not think Egypt called for the genocide of Palestinians

No that is absolutely correct.
There are insanely many countries more corrupt than israel.

https://www.transparency.org/country/ISR

Israel is on place 28 of 176. So please, stop that nonsensial claims.
Israel never called for genocide on palestine. Because u know what? If they wanted to do that, they would. Because they can.
The only party calling for genocide are the hamas. You call them freedom fighters.

As I said, hamas was formed in 1987
How do you think they took Palestine land before?
By asking them politely to leave their home?

How many times did Israel get attacked before they ever started such a lock down on gaza?
Fact is: Israel handled out a treaty and backed out of gaza to a substantial degree, enabled palestinians to have their only free vote.
What did they vote? Hamas, a party whose charta includes the errasure of israel. Instantly after Israel backed out, the rockets started to fly.
And you blame israel for not backing out even more?
That is laughable.
You support actual terrorists here out of ignorance.

I can say the same thing to you since I also provided proof to support my claim.

No you can not say the same thing to me because i base what i say on neutral sources and am not a person to discredit every medium i do not like.
I however discredit media who provably lie or have a visible agenda.

Yes and I wonder who fought Palestine before 1987?
It must be hamas too.
They must have invented a time machine to travel to past and take over Palestine land

You really need to decide whether you want to talk about modern developements or the past.
In the past, Israel was attacked. Partially from gaza. That is why they were there in the first place.
In modern time, you got the hamas.
Now decide which you want to take here, but both don't exactly make the israelis look bad.
The yoccupied gaza in the first place because they were attacked form there.

I am sorry to say, but I do not believe this.
Regardless, my point still stands.
Who took over Palestine land before 1987?

Noone, because there never was something as 'palestinian land'.
There was the Osman empire, then there was the british mandate.
There were jewish settlers who bought land, too.
Then there was a war which wasn't started by the israelis who accepted the UN plan.
This war was won by them, and yes, then they claimed more land than the UN plan would have included.
And honestly? I think that is pretty justified after being attacked by several armies instantly after opting for a peaceful solution.

I'll just pretend I didn't see that.
No seriously!
I really didn't see that.
After all the proof, links, images and videos I've shown you, I do not understand how you could say this.

You have not provided any proof. You have provided propaganda pages that are no actual sources because they just claim things out of context.
Israel is de facto the only democracy in the middle east by now.
That is a simple truth that has to be repeated over and over.

I think I explained this in my earlier posts.
But yes, I do agree that they have become a bunch of extremists due to fighting extremists (Israeli army)

You didnt. You claimed wrong things out of ignorance and think that it is a proof.
The Hamas started out with a charta that said they wanted to kill jews and errase israel from existance.
They instantly started out killing oppositional palestinians and innocent israelian civilists.
If you do not acknowledge that, then i could aswell say that the israelis only ever shoot with marshmallows instead bullets.

*sigh*
I could say the same thing to you
Anyway, I think you've already made up your mind about this.
Now here's the thing.
If you do not want me to reply anymore then I will not
Regardless, I don't think my opinion about this will change.

No you couldnt. Because I do not jump in points. You are the one opening up more and more points before ever trying to give out one valid one.

 

[swirlydragon]

So you are blaming Israel for not giving full rights to people who...Do not want to be Israelis?
Like...Every other nation does?

Yeah, they do not wish to become the part of the people who raped their sisters/mothers and killed their family
What's wrong with that?
Now if you think I am making any of this then here's an article
Israeli rabbi who advocated rape of ‘comely gentile women’ during war becomes chief army rabbi
Israeli Rabbi: Israeli Soldiers can Rape Palestinian Women
Israeli military’s new chief rabbi implied soldiers can rape in war, as government lurches to far-right

No it is not their land. If anything, it was the land of people who are long dead, and even that is debateable.

Yes and America belongs to Native Americans.
What's your point?
It's crystal clear that Palestinians were living in Palestine peacefully, but the Jews infiltrated Palestine during WW2 and took over their land.
Were they peaceful (like Mahatma Gandhi)?
No!
Did they expect Palestinians to not retaliate (the formation of Hamas, hezbollas and so on)?
Yes!
Are they hypocrites?
Yes!
Just because their Talmud says that Israel belongs to Abrahamic people (even though Muslims are also Abrahamic) doesn't mean the land magically belongs to Jews when in reality Palestinians were living in it
(Anyway, all religions are fairy tales so let's keep that aside)
Btw I think I already provided images and URL's to support my claim on Palestinian land while you have provided nothing.
This is not rocket science, you know
It's quite obvious whose land it really is.

De facto, most of these so called refugees do not want to go back to israel, but are used as a number to discredit israel. That is dishonest.

So this is what Western Pro-Israeli media tells Westerners, right?
So glad I am not a Westerner *sigh*

It simply is not their home.

No, it is
Just because you deny it doesn't make it magically true.

Oh, and why do they decline? Maybe due to the wars they led against Israel, time after time? Because Israel accepted the UN plan.

UN works for USA.
USA supports Israel
Do you think Palestinians are idiots?
There was no peaceful resolution from the very beginning.
It's just one sided massacre

The arabs didnt and instantly attacked.

I see
So Palestinians start to retaliate against the people who invaded them, weird, huh?
Definitely weird!

So excuse me if i cannot really take it serious when they cry crocodile tears about now not having the borders of the UN plan.

Crocodile tears?
I don't think they are looking for your or anyone else's sympathy.
They've got their own force (hamas and hezbollas) funded by Iran and Qatar to fight off those IDF soldiers who use Palestinians as human shields.
(Though some hamas/hezbollas people have gone batshit crazy and become terrorists. Regardless, their reason for fighting is not bad. They are simply defending their home from invaders)
Israeli soldiers use Palestinian child as human shield

No that is absolutely correct.
There are insanely many countries more corrupt than israel.

https://www.transparency.org/country/ISR

I see
I am totally gonna believe those Pro-Israeli Western media lies lol
Btw if you want to know how corrupt Israel is then look at this video:-
"Hitler didn't want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jews"
That's not me saying any of this btw
This is what Netanyahu said (in English btw)
lol
So a Muslim leader told Hitler to exterminate the Jews?
Yep, Israel is not corrupt at all.
It's not like they are teaching the wrong history. This is the truth.
Hitler did nothing wrong!
All those neo-nazis were right, I guess smh
It's really hilarious how Netanyahu's opinion matches with some Anti-semites who admire Hitler

Israel is on place 28 of 176. So please, stop that nonsensial claims.

I see
Very well
I guess I was wrong because you know, these Pro-Israeli media surely speaks the truth about Israel pffft

Israel never called for genocide on palestine. Because u know what? If they wanted to do that, they would. Because they can.

I already provided a URL for that
You just don't want to accept the fact that they really do want to kill the Palestinians, but they can't since they need to show the world how righteous they are.
Anyway, just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it is not true

The only party calling for genocide are the hamas. You call them freedom fighters.

Another one of your false claims with no proof to back it up.
As I said, just because you deny something (without a proof to back it up) doesn't mean it is not true.

How many times did Israel get attacked before they ever started such a lock down on gaza?

How many times Israel killed Palestinians, bombed their homes, raped their sister, raped their mothers, tortured them, treated them like animals, etc?
How many times have they done that?
I'll tell you how many times.
They do it every day!

Fact is: Israel handled out a treaty and backed out of gaza to a substantial degree, enabled palestinians to have their only free vote.

Another one of your false claims with no proof to back it up.
I wonder why I am the only one who provides tons of videos, URL's, images, etc while you provide almost nothing?
Is it because I speak the truth?
It's crystal clear that you are Pro-Israel.
On the other hand I am not at all Pro-Palestine
The only thing I want is for Israel to stop illegal settlements in occupied Palestine territories, give them equal lands, etc.
I don't want those Palestinians to live in that corrupt nation where Jews are treated as god's people while Palestinians and other groups are treated as trash.


I want those Palestinians to have their own land instead of living in another countries as refugees or even worse, living in a Zionist country where they are treated below trash, can be raped, can be killed, etc.
I'll be honest, I don't want to waste anymore time with you.
I am not gonna waste any more time with someone who thinks Palestinians are evil while Israelis are angels
At least I accept that hamas have become extremists, but you keep on denying Israel's atrocities with your nonsensical claims (with no proof to back it up unlike me)

What did they vote? Hamas, a party whose charta includes the errasure of israel. Instantly after Israel backed out, the rockets started to fly.

Yeah, like Israel did nothing.

Another Gaza Hospital Hit by Israeli Strike; Four Dead, 40 Hurt
448 children killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza, UN says

And you blame israel for not backing out even more?

No, I blame them for killing, raping, bombing and torturing Palestinians.
What's wrong with that?
I am a human too.
I seriously do not want to use Ad Misericordiam in my claims, but you are leaving me no choice if you do the same.

That is laughable.
You support actual terrorists here out of ignorance.

I see
So I support terrorists, huh?
Is it because they are Muslims?
Is it because they are Palestinians?
Is it because they are opposing USA?
Is it because they are opposing the chosen people of gods?
Or is it because I am merely speaking the truth while you are calling them terrorists out of ignorance.

No you can not say the same thing to me because i base what i say on neutral sources and am not a person to discredit every medium i do not like.

I can say the same thing to you
Please stop with all these double standards.
I am getting tired of this *sigh*

I however discredit media who provably lie or have a visible agenda.

I see
So you decide which sources speaks the truth and which doesn't, huh?
I guess all Pro-Israelis sources speak the truth while all Pro-Palestine sources are terrorist propaganda smh

You really need to decide whether you want to talk about modern developements or the past.
In the past, Israel was attacked. Partially from gaza. That is why they were there in the first place. In modern time, you got the hamas.

Another one of your made up facts.
Opening new points again and again.
First hamas, now the past Gaza?
Yeah, I know
Palestinians were evil.
They just wanted to exterminate the Jews, it's not like they were protecting themselves from foreign invaders!
Evil Palestinians!

Now decide which you want to take here, but both don't exactly make the israelis look bad.
The yoccupied gaza in the first place because they were attacked form there.

Occupied gaza?
I'll speak the harsh truth right here and right now
There is no such country as Israel
There is only occupied Palestine land, but that still doesn't mean I want Israel to be erased unlike you who wants Palestinian people to give up their own land to Israelis without even a fight
Palestinians will never give up!
I hope they do not!
There are still many countries who support Palestine
If you are fighting for justice then you will succeed no matter what!

Noone, because there never was something as 'palestinian land'.

No, there is only Palestine land

There was the Osman empire, then there was the british mandate.
There were jewish settlers who bought land, too

So what?
That still doesn't change the fact that the land belongs to Arab Palestinians and not European Jews (or some other community)

Then there was a war which wasn't started by the israelis who accepted the UN plan.

Yeah, right! lol
Israelis are angels after all.
It's not like they raped, killed, tortured and bombed Palestinians to take over their land.

This war was won by them, and yes, then they claimed more land than the UN plan would have included.
And honestly? I think that is pretty justified after being attacked by several armies instantly after opting for a peaceful solution.

lol
They have almost taken 90% of Palestinian land and you say it's justified?
Don't make me laugh!
I am sure the Palestinians will not stop fighting, they need to take their land from those foreign invaders.
UN was always Israel's puppet
There was no peaceful solution from the very beginning.
You people can believe whatever you want, but I want to tell you one thing.
There are people like me who still support Palestine and no matter how much Israel tries to oppress them, Palestine will become free one day.
They will never stop fighting no matter what you people say.
You can call them terrorists, nazis, anti-semites, etc but that won't stop them from taking back their own land.
NEVER!

You have not provided any proof. You have provided propaganda pages that are no actual sources because they just claim things out of context.

I see
So now you are going to decide whose sources are propaganda or not, right?

Israel is de facto the only democracy in the middle east by now.

Yeah, a democratic country that uses small Palestinian children as human shields.
Definitely democratic!

That is a simple truth that has to be repeated over and over.

Yes that's a universal fact that Israel raped Palestinians, killed their families and use Palestinian boys as human shields.

You didnt. You claimed wrong things out of ignorance and think that it is a proof.

You're one to talk

The Hamas started out with a charta that said they wanted to kill jews and errase israel from existance.

I see
Another one of your made up facts, huh?
I'll play along, I guess

They instantly started out killing oppositional palestinians and innocent israelian civilists.

Yes, there sure were Palestinians who opposed their own land and supported Israel lol
Don't expect me to believe your lies anymore.
Unlike you I have proof to support my claim.

If you do not acknowledge that, then i could aswell say that the israelis only ever shoot with marshmallows instead bullets.

You can believe whatever you want, but that ain't gonna change the truth.
Let me tell you one thing, the only reason I even bothered to post in this thread is because I wanted to express my views.
That's it!
I do not care if other people support Israel, but that doesn't mean I will also support that Zionist country.

No you couldnt. Because I do not jump in points. You are the one opening up more and more points before ever trying to give out one valid one.

Yeah, like you don't open any new points smh
Seriously dude, this conversation is getting tiring.
Let's call it a quit
I don't think our opinions are going to change about this.
Even if you reply to me next time, it's just going to be you denying everything I said.