European Politics

[Reebi]

I agree with the violence part, it was over the top and the responsability resides entirely on Rajoy but not for sending the police to prevent the "referendum", the unforgivable mistake was allowing the Generalitat to perform the 1-O. I dont have absolutely nothing against the catalans deciding their independance, its a right of their own and they should do it, but there's a legal procedure that the Generalitat have not respected.
As for the independence of Cataluña its something thats been going on for a long time, the last time something like this happened was in 1934 and it ended really bad... civil war level of bad. I understand the ideal of independence, but not the way they are using to get it, completely ignoring the institutional rules which leads to the second point.



I do not doubt there's a lot of people who want the independence of Cataluña but if the movement never reached the necessary support from the Catalan population in order to make a parliamentary change it means something, that there's not a clear majority. The people that dont want to separate from Spain must round the 50% or this wouldn't have happened.
As for the so called "Referendum" I explained a couple of posts above why its a farce. You cannot even take seriously those numbers when the electoral procedure was completely directed to obtain the "yes", the people who wanted to say "No" simply stayed in their house because it was not legal (the people that actually went to vote against independence were rejected anyway), there's no way people will accept such a result but the ones in favor of the independence.

The reason behind all this agitation and scam is to avoid debt anyway, Cataluña can't really sustain on its own if they get independence and the Generalitat/Cups know it very well but the Catalans are convinced it could happen due to a strong propaganda for the last 6 years. The reason Im really preoccupied is for the 50% (presumably more) of Catalans that didn't want this and now are trapped in this mess.
The government's passive behaviour towards this matter now could end very bad if the state of emergency is applied to restore the institutional order.

I just hope 1-O is the last strand of violence, but as things are going it could be just the beggining...

I think all legal referendums should be a 60% to win. 50.000001% isn't really a majority

 

[SleipnirX]

I think all legal referendums should be a 60% to win. 50.000001% isn't really a majority

The trouble with that is it weights the referendum in favour of the status quo; basically with a 60% margin you’re saying don’t change anything only has to get 40% approval.

 

[Reebi]

The trouble with that is it weights the referendum in favour of the status quo; basically with a 60% margin you’re saying don’t change anything only has to get 40% approval.

I meant 60% approval because 50% isn't really representative of the population.

 

[SleipnirX]

I meant 60% approval because 50% isn't really representative of the population.

But that’s the thing, what if, in a completely fair election, Catalonia voted 53% for independence from Spain, to 47% remain a part of Spain? Would you say, oh well the 53% of voters out number the 47%, but we’ll go with what the 47% want because the others didn’t reach 60%? In reality on a high turnout (~80%) basis that would probably be something like 40% leave, 38% remain and 22% didn’t vote, so yeah it’s a plurality, not a majority, but still the largest section of the electorate being overruled because they’re voting for ‘not the status quo’.

 

[Franckie]

Catalonia is another example of rising nationalism in Europe, and how dangerous and shortsighted it can be. Independence sounds good on paper, but secession is out of the question. Secession only means anything if other parts of the country agree with Catalonia's decision, and clearly they don't. It also would have likely bankrupted Catalonia. You can thank though the massive incompetence of European elites (we're talking 10.0 on the Richter scale here) for their reckless policies we call the Euro, austerity, and mass migration that have led to these fertile breeding grounds. Unfortunately, this is probably only the beginning.

 

[Reebi]

Catalonia is another example of rising nationalism in Europe, and how dangerous and shortsighted it can be. Independence sounds good on paper, but secession is out of the question. Secession only means anything if other parts of the country agree with Catalonia's decision, and clearly they don't. It also would have likely bankrupted Catalonia. You can thank though the massive incompetence of European elites (we're talking 10.0 on the Richter scale here) for their reckless policies we call the Euro, austerity, and mass migration that have led to these fertile breeding grounds. Unfortunately, this is probably only the beginning.

I agree that seperating is more of an emotional decision instead of a logical one. The economy most likely won't be the same and the politics seems like it would be more corrupt.

 

[SleipnirX]

Catalonia is another example of rising nationalism in Europe, and how dangerous and shortsighted it can be. Independence sounds good on paper, but secession is out of the question. Secession only means anything if other parts of the country agree with Catalonia's decision, and clearly they don't. It also would have likely bankrupted Catalonia. You can thank though the massive incompetence of European elites (we're talking 10.0 on the Richter scale here) for their reckless policies we call the Euro, austerity, and mass migration that have led to these fertile breeding grounds. Unfortunately, this is probably only the beginning.

In fairness, after how the Catalans were treated in the Franco era, and after Rajoy seemed to think that he could start acting in much the same manner, it shouldn’t surprise anyone that they attempted to retaliate to make a statement if nothing else. Rajoy has questions to answer about why he was attempting to reduce Catalan self governance and sparked this in the first place.

 

[Lambu]

In fairness, after how the Catalans were treated in the Franco era, and after Rajoy seemed to think that he could start acting in much the same manner, it shouldn’t surprise anyone that they attempted to retaliate to make a statement if nothing else. Rajoy has questions to answer about why he was attempting to reduce Catalan self governance and sparked this in the first place.

Man, I've always been a left wing person and I want Rajoy out of the government for quite some time already, but comparing Rajoy and Franco... no, just no. Its like saying Merkel = Hitler, its just insane and delusional.

The pro-independence catalans have been defining everyone who opposes their way of thinking as fascists for quite some time and Im tired of it. They even call comunists "fachas" because they dont support them lmao.
The ones who broke the law and made the "coup d'etat" were Puigdemont and his associates of the tri-partit, they ignored the process needed and never had the intention to negotiate.

The best part of all this madness is that Cataluña is the autonomic region that enjoys the broadest priviledges and governmental independence by far. The ones following it are Euskadi and Andalucia, where I live, so I can tell from personal view.
Just think that if you want to study in Cataluña you need to learn Catalan, not Spanish, or else you cannot make the exams...I mean: wtf?
Scotland would have signed everything all the way to have the priviledges the Catalans already have as an autonomic region.

All those people that are making manifestations in the streets for the ex-govern of the Generalitat... I only feel sad for them because it will be sooner or later when they know they were fooled and that their economy only stands today because the Spanish government ceased the PDC.
The thing is, if the independance of Cataluña had a good plan and could sustain on its own they would have chosen the parlamentary-constitutional way, the articles would have been modified by national consensus and then the catalan referendum would have taken place without not even half of the current opposition, but they simply dont have a plan, this is just disgusting populism, sorry if it sounds rude but its the truth.

 

[Reebi]

Man, I've always been a left wing person and I want Rajoy out of the government for quite some time already, but comparing Rajoy and Franco... no, just no. Its like saying Merkel = Hitler, its just insane and delusional.

The pro-independence catalans have been defining everyone who opposes their way of thinking as fascists for quite some time and Im tired of it. They even call comunists "fachas" because they dont support them lmao.
The ones who broke the law and made the "coup d'etat" were Puigdemont and his associates of the tri-partit, they ignored the process needed and never had the intention to negotiate.

The best part of all this madness is that Cataluña is the autonomic region that enjoys the broadest priviledges and governmental independence by far. The ones following it are Euskadi and Andalucia, where I live, so I can tell from personal view.
Just think that if you want to study in Cataluña you need to learn Catalan, not Spanish, or else you cannot make the exams...I mean: wtf?
Scotland would have signed everything all the way to have the priviledges the Catalans already have as an autonomic region.

All those people that are making manifestations in the streets for the ex-govern of the Generalitat... I only feel sad for them because it will be sooner or later when they know they were fooled and that their economy only stands today because the Spanish government ceased the PDC.
The thing is, if the independance of Cataluña had a good plan and could sustain on its own they would have chosen the parlamentary-constitutional way, the articles would have been modified by national consensus and then the catalan referendum would have taken place without not even half of the current opposition, but they simply dont have a plan, this is just disgusting populism, sorry if it sounds rude but its the truth.

That's like in Québec over here. Some people want to separate but they don't have a plan for the aftermath. They want to keep the Canadian dollar and they want ties to Canada, which makes no sense to separate. :S

 

[SleipnirX]

Man, I've always been a left wing person and I want Rajoy out of the government for quite some time already, but comparing Rajoy and Franco... no, just no. Its like saying Merkel = Hitler, its just insane and delusional.

The pro-independence catalans have been defining everyone who opposes their way of thinking as fascists for quite some time and Im tired of it. They even call comunists "fachas" because they dont support them lmao.
The ones who broke the law and made the "coup d'etat" were Puigdemont and his associates of the tri-partit, they ignored the process needed and never had the intention to negotiate.

The best part of all this madness is that Cataluña is the autonomic region that enjoys the broadest priviledges and governmental independence by far. The ones following it are Euskadi and Andalucia, where I live, so I can tell from personal view.
Just think that if you want to study in Cataluña you need to learn Catalan, not Spanish, or else you cannot make the exams...I mean: wtf?
Scotland would have signed everything all the way to have the priviledges the Catalans already have as an autonomic region.

All those people that are making manifestations in the streets for the ex-govern of the Generalitat... I only feel sad for them because it will be sooner or later when they know they were fooled and that their economy only stands today because the Spanish government ceased the PDC.
The thing is, if the independance of Cataluña had a good plan and could sustain on its own they would have chosen the parlamentary-constitutional way, the articles would have been modified by national consensus and then the catalan referendum would have taken place without not even half of the current opposition, but they simply dont have a plan, this is just disgusting populism, sorry if it sounds rude but its the truth.

Well it’s a valid comparison in my eyes because Franco and Rajoy share a contempt for Catalan identity and self determination - just because Rajoy doesn’t have the same powers as Franco to repress Catalonia doesn’t mean they don’t take a similar view of the issue. If Rajoy could unilaterally dissolve the Catalan parliament and take direct control because he was a dictator do you think he’d hesitate to do it?

Well yes, it was widely reported that even people like Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond ultimately don’t want to be independent from the UK, but to have extra powers over taxation and spending - I’m sure gaining the same control as Catalonia has in Scotland would be considered the optimal solution to people who want ‘independence’. And my honest view on that is why not? I see absolutely no reason not to give Scotland more control over its own affairs within the UK, just as I think Catalonia should be given as much free reign as it wants in Spain. Ultimately Scotland and England are two countries that joined into one, and I think respecting that and allowing each region to retain its own unique identity and largely govern itself while pooling resources where it’s mutually beneficial is the only way of such a union being happy in the long term. I’m not so versed on the intricacies of Catalonia joining Spain, but I do know that it was a similar co-joining of previously independent realms and that like Scotland, Catalonia feels a strong sense of self to this day.

If you ask people in Scotland whether they feel Scottish or British, most will answer that they feel both Scottish and British, but Scottish first. And that’s fine, I’d say I felt English first, but that doesn’t mean I’d want England to completely leave behind the UK and I think in Catalonia the people probably feel largely similar, so why not leave themselves to themselves contentedly governing their own affairs while still officially a part of the Spanish state? It’s the need to grab power and have control by the Madrid based government that I can’t understand, just leave the Catalans to largely run themselves day to day.

 

[Onyx Darkmatter]

The Catalonian referendum is already illegal, therefore it's illegitimate and null. There's no sense in doing so without amending the Constitution without Madrid's approval.
But Spain lost that battle the moment they sent forces to brutalize and stop people from voting. Way to fucking go Spain for showing the world that you truly care about Democracy.

 

[SleipnirX]

Well the Catalan separatists have been returned to power by the regional vote called by the Spanish central government, hopefully they will now concede that they have to sack Rajoy and get round the negotiating table to at least devolve more powers back to Catalonia (those they took away triggering this whole debacle and probably more besides) - I see this as a victory for democracy and self determination.

 

[Houjou]

Sorry for the bump, but I found this while searching for something unrelated, and it got me reading...

- Opaque voting urns that were full of "votes" already (there's even a video of a guy dropping an urn while running into the polling place and it was already full of papers)
- There was no census so anyone could vote, I mean some people voted through the internet using the name "Michael Jackson" "Mickey Mouse" or "Donald Trump" and it counted as a valid vote (I really wish I was kidding but sadly its the truth).
- As there was no census there was no actual number of people pending to vote, so there was people who voted 4 or 5 times and it counted (believe me, its not a joke) As a result the 100,88% of the catalan population registered a vote last Sunday.
- If you think thats crazy enough this one is good, people couldn't vote "No" , when you were in the polling place there were no electoral ballots to vote against the independence, if you said you wanted to vote against it they would ask you to leave.

What you state as facts in your previous posts is not true.

1) The ballot to vote Yes and No was the same one. You get one paper, you scratch either yes or no and put it inside the box. I counted votes myself and we had a lot of noes.

This is the ballot used to vote: https://goo.gl/kCVQsp You can see in Spanish, Catalan and Occitan (a lanauge spoken in Catalonia and southern France) that you can vote yes and no using that paper.

2) You could not vote online. There was no such thing. An online server was used to check that a person had not voted already. Basically: if you show up to vote, we input your national ID number into the system, and then the system would say whether you had voted already or not. You did not input any name, only a national ID number. Yes, Spain disrupted the beahviour of the online website for a while, and during that time we paralized the voting just in case.

3) We are talking 2,044,038 leave votes here during the 1-O referendum. Then, during the snap elections of 21 of December, there were 2,079,340 leave votes. Whichever video you've watched of a person successfully voting twice due to the servers being down in a specific area of Catalonia, is not significant. Unless you believe the 21D elections were also rigged, and the votes again do not reflect the actual number of pro-independence supporters.

4) It hurts me that someone from Spain believed all of this enough to spread it, and I am truly concerned about how you interpret everything that the media speaks about in Spain. I am not defending Catalonia's independence, I just want you to know some facts about the referendum. Because you might've been misled by the media (made obvious by your claim that you could vote online and you could not vote "no" at the stations).

5) I get a similar feeling when people from Spain criticize Catalans' "violence" against the police corps during September 2017 when people blocked the entrance of a building and vandalized two cars. People are putting these events on the same level as the police beating down hundreds of pacifist citizens who just wanted to vote (some wanted to vote yes and some wanted to vote no, and some wanted to vote blank).

6) Also, referring to another post of yours: the tri-partit has nothing to do here. The tri-partit was composed of ERC (pro-leave), PSC (pro-stay) and ICV (assumed pro-stay unless they clearly define themselves as pro-leave). You're mixing things up.

7) In Catalonia, you can usually take exams in both languages: Catalan and Spanish. What you say is not true. All university entrance exams and university exams are available in both Catalan and Spanish (university exams also in English). In primary and secondary schools, it depends on the local community. If you do not speak Catalan and take tests in a Catalan school, professors will prepare a Spanish exam for you or help you out during the test translating every sentence. I have seen this tens of times in my classrooms.

Now please excuse my old bump again.

 

[SleipnirX]

Rajoy is gone - perhaps the Catalan people will feel some grim pleasure from this after his awful treatment of them last year, but the damage he inflicted as yet remains. Hopefully his successor will do better at respecting Catalan culture, identity and self determination, though that seems to be a somewhat vain hope...

 

[Franz]

Hello from Italy.

As you have imagined following the news, here the political situation is a slaughterhouse.

There is almost to regret Berlusconi. I thank President Mattarella, one of the few serious politicians left in this country ......

 

[James Rye]

Looks like everyone is ready to knife Merkel, only question is who stabs first and who last. Kinda like with Caesar, I guess where 15 Senators agreed he had to die but in the end only 8 did it.

 

[SonOfDaws]

I'm trying to research something, but I'm not exactly sure where to start. Does anyone know some of the current big political issues in Denmark and Sweden?

I can look for the details myself, but I know next to nothing about those countries so I don't know exactly what to look up.

 

[Franckie]

I'm trying to research something, but I'm not exactly sure where to start. Does anyone know some of the current big political issues in Denmark and Sweden?

I can look for the details myself, but I know next to nothing about those countries so I don't know exactly what to look up.

If you're looking for a topic, immigration is a hot-button issue right now:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...l-pariah-looks-to-end-isolation-idUSKBN1K20HJ

What are you researching?

 

[SonOfDaws]

If you're looking for a topic, immigration is a hot-button issue right now:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghettos.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...l-pariah-looks-to-end-isolation-idUSKBN1K20HJ

What are you researching?

Thanks

I'm trying to look at the countries that usually get cited by American socialists and Marxists. There haven't been any primarily socialist nations that have been successful in the long term (hardly any that have managed in the short term for that matter), but I want to see what the political landscape is like and what issues they're contending with right now.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 15, 2018 ---

"Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments."

Yeah, that sounds about right...

 

[Franckie]

Thanks

You're welcome.

I'm trying to look at the countries that usually get cited by American socialists and Marxists. There haven't been any primarily socialist nations that have been successful in the long term (hardly any that have managed in the short term for that matter), but I want to see what the political landscape is like and what issues they're contending with right now.

Any country that is considered to have an "advanced economy" has a mixed economy: capitalism + socialism. For reading sources, have you considered Jacobin Magazine? Besides US affairs, they write extensively on foreign affairs too. Link: https://www.jacobinmag.com/