Discussion One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[Pirate Queen]

@King Moe If you take a step back from desperately wanting Sanji to shine you would realize that you are making up some weird logic, arguing just for the sake of argument and putting Sanji into an impossible fight.
Same can be said for Zoro? No, it can not. Zoro has swords to block Jack's swords, Cat had a spear and Dog had a sword. What is Sanji going to use to block Jack's swords? I said, even if Sanji shows hardening its not improving his odds against Jack. Not even Luffy was taking on the sword attacks from Cracker and Cracker is most likely weaker than Jack. Luffy who is far above Sanji barely managed to beat the commanders and you expect the same feat from Sanji? Jack is an extremely durable opponent while Sanji and durable cannot go into the same sentence. Usopp's Alabasta fight shows more durability than anything Sanji ever did.

As much as you want it, Sanji is not ready for a fight of such caliber and Jack is a very bad matchup for him. He may shine against someone who's a level under Calamities and uses no sharp weapons. Vergo could have been a good matchup for Sanji to improve him but it didnt happen aside from small clash which didnt really look like Sanji has an upper hand and you want to put Sanji vs someone who is above Doflamingo and is a sword user.
Raid suit will improve Sanji's capabilities for sure but i bet it wont make him go from zero to hero. The only opponent i can think of that would fit Sanji could be Scratchman Apoo but even he had some cutting techniques. However, if he figures how to avoid that it could be a good fight and clash of punches and kicks. That's more than big enough of a bite for Sanji.

There are many reasons why you can say Jack and Sanj9 is not a suitable match up, " Because Jack uses swords" is not one of them.

Sanji has been shown multiple times in New World that he is fully capable of fighting opponents with sharp weapons.

Judge, Oven, Daifuku, Raisin all had sharp weapons and he wasn't soundly defeated by any of them.

Throwing Scratchman Apoo's name in as an opponent is so random, it borders ridiculous. We know next to nothing about him.

I personally think your overestimating Zoro and underestimating Sanji

@Pro Ban Corps, well said

 

[nik87]

If i wanted to say that, I will spell it out for you. I spoke from what was said in the manga, Haki blossoms when pressed. Sanji could blossom in his fight vs Jack. He could already have hardening and not have used it. Jimbei didnt use hardening until he absolutely needed it.
Although, Going by heirachy of strength in the manga, I'd say Jimbei has a better chance of defeating Jack over zoro and zoro has a higher chance over sanji. But nothing Stops sanji from actually defeating Jack is my point. It will be a hard earned win for sanji but the sword reasons you gave sound dumb af, when we've seen him block A spear with his foot.

Sanji's fans are the worst lol.
And what do you actually expect if his CoA blossoms in the fight? Luffy has far superior CoA which i dont expect Sanji to reach and he cant afford to tank hits of sharp weapons. Do you really believe Sanji would be able to tank sword hits from someone like Jack or you are trolling me?
Luffy was cut by Cracker and avoided every sword attack, he was pierced by Katakuri's spear and also avoided each spear attack other than that one which landed. If Luffy cannot tank such attacks then sure as hell Sanji cant either, no matter how much you want to hype Sanji up.

I disagree that Jinbe has better chances against swordsman than Zoro. Jinbe was cut by both Mihawk and weakened Big Mom. He didnt show anything that he can handle a swordsman.
Everything stops Sanji from defeating Jack and blocking a spear which was intended for Carrot is ridiculous but Sanji fans gotta grab such straws.

Calamity is enough reason for Sanji to stay out of such fight and Calamity swordsman is even bigger reason to keep Sanji away from Jack. @Lexusflame
Judge and Raisin are fodder, why are you even comparing those to someone like Jack? Oven didnt fight Sanji, Daifuku rekted Sanji in first clash and when Sanji blocked his spear he was attacking Carrot. Ridiculous.
Scratchmen Apoo sounds better since he is Supernova which should be weaker than Calamity, didnt seem to use any weapons and probably fights with his hands mainly. Has a strange DF which managed to cut Kizaru but we dont know how it works. I would still give him better chances against Apoo than against Jack.

Where have i overestimated Zoro? I am definitely not underestimating Sanji. Sanji's captain, Luffy, whom i consider worlds apart from Sanji in terms of combat abilities, is barely able to handle such opponents and suddenly fanboys think Sanji is there as well, that he could do it.
What actually can Sanji do against Jack when you think about it? Let's take speed for example, Cat and Dog were faster and didnt do them any good. They were able to dodge Jack's attacks but what good is that from someone who has better durability? Lets take power and lets push Sanji and say that his offensive is better than those from Cat and Dog but is it actually? Cat and Dogs attacks didnt do anything to Jack for 5 days. Also, lets remember that power level of Cat and Dog is above Supernovas, since Bege ran away from such a fight and considered Cat a monster. What can Sanji actually do to Jack?
If raid suit is what makes him possible to beat Jack then it has to give him insane power to actually hurt and take Jack out, without it he has no feats capable of defeating a Calamity. I am not underestimating Sanji, he simply has nothing to deal with Jack.

@hokageji All Strawhats are considered saviours of Zou. I would love if Sanji was able to take on Jack but imo he has nothing to stand up to Jack since thats a tier which is giving Luffy serious problems. There are more people who could take on Calamities instead of Sanji. Luffy, Law, Zoro, Marco if he joins, Cat/Dog in Sulong form. My bet is either a Supernova or a tier under Calamities will be Sanjis opponent.

 

[King Moe]

@King Moe This gave me a good laugh. If you are serious at comparing Zoro's and Sanji's durability then you are fanboying over Sanji way too much. Also, please, dont twist my words to fit your argument. I am a Zoro fan but i intend to be objective about it as much as possible. Nowhere have i pushed Zoro to the moon like you present it nor have i said that Sanji is afraid of swords. If you are using Sanji and Zoro fights as Sanji's feats of dealing with swords i have to disappoint you, those are gag moments not Sanji's feats.

Let's take a look at the history of Sanji's fights so we don't "undermine Sanji" as you say it. Sanji vs Pearl, Sanji vs Gin, Sanji vs Kuroobi, Sanji vs mr 13, Sanji vs mr2, Sanji vs Satori, Sanji vs Wanze, Sanji vs Jabra, Sanji vs Absalom and Sanji vs Wadatsumi. Those were his fights.
He had small clashes with Enel, Vergo, Doflamingo, Daifuku and Oven and notice that he hit Oven while Oven wasnt in a fight with him, same as with that clash with Daifuku. Daifuku was trying to hit Carrot and Sanji only managed to block his one hit. Thats all you got to base Sanji abilities on. You are making a big deal out of nothing, same as you make big deal of the nails. Considering what kind of injuries Zoro handled in the past i wonder what are you even trying to accomplish by using the nails as your argument, lol.

So, all those opponents in Sanji past, lets see how many were worthy opponents and how many were fodder. Worthy opponents were Gin, Mr2 and Jabra and serious fight only happened with Mr2 and Jabra. Out of all those opponents, who was using a sharp weapon? Nobody. He showed some endurance by clashing legs with Mr2 and he tanked few hits against Jabra. Thats the legendary endurance of Sanji.

Dude, it's not be overhyping Sanji in the slightest. Zoro and Sanji are quite comparable with Durability and I will say Zoro a bit more than Sanji, but if your really saying there is a huge difference, your overhyping Zoro too much as they aren't far apart as you think they are. Your not doing a good job, Nik87 on being fair as I am not the other one talking against you on this. Your letting your fanboyism to get to you more than mine and I actually enjoy both characters. You just said He has more chance to face Jack despite the fact the logic your putting down on Sanji works for him too. Cause does it make sense for a man who got puncture by nails of a Supernova and needed medical treatment to fight guy with beyond durability of taking a 1000 years old, Gigantic Elephant Trunk, one of the strongest part of a elephant in real life to be hit and survive with no trouble much on injuries as he was still conscious? Your contradicting yourself in that logic and yeah Sanji vs Zoro interacts count as they are not just for funny moments, it's fact as they do fight to hurt each other time to time, but not kill each other.

So you want to do fights, huh? Alright then let's quote Zoro on that after his defeat from Mihawk he said "I Will Never Lose Again!" and guess who he lost to afterwards? Buggy (Though before this was before his famous quote, I won't try to count him), Mihawk, Arlong, Mr.3 and Barqoue Works, Enel, Foxy Pirates (In certain events), Kaku and Lucci (separately), Thriller Bark pirates/creatures, Ooz, and Moira (As he was taken and Shadow stolen by Moira), Kuma, Pacifista and Kuma again. Now post-timeskip, he lost to Hody and his men (While true he was able to slice him, he was still conscious and his men capture him), Yeti Brothers, Fujitroa (Fight went unfinished, but Fujitora was barely trying and Zoro bleed out of the fight), couldn't cut Doflamingo's strings, and now Hawkins with more advantage with their fight and made him bleed again. Your making a big deal about Zoro when he has many loses and haven't shown to be above as you think as you letting fanboyism affect you so badly your missing the truth around.

Sanji has prove his worth with his opponents and those situations have their reasons and issues on why they went the way they were. Sanji only legit lost I know is Doflamingo and the others are clashes and victories for him. Also yeah I am using it as your using the leg thing and blades despite Sanji is more durable as shown. Where your getting at he is 'fragile' when the man shown especially last arc he took so much physical hit, but still going strong. Your really undermining Sanji, but not surprise as your a Zoro fan and enjoy pushing Zoro to the damn moon as always.

Same with Zoro as what happened to him lately that he hasn't taken on serious opponents anymore and damn nails are affecting him? He is nothing like Zoro of Enies Lobby and need more feats on taking stronger opponents too which he hasn't for a long time. Sanji has shown to be holding back his power and haven't even shown his full kicking techniques at all along with showing more Haki and Raid Suit. If you think Sanji won't get stronger, your at the deep end and stretching too much lol. Why you think everyone is countering your statements lol, thanks for the laugh man, but learn to be unbiased man. Really we can see your fanboyism.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 14, 2018 ---

Sanji defeated Sheepshead and if i remember right they owe it to Chopper the most but first of all they owe it to Dressrosa group since thats what removed Jack from Zou in the first place.

There are tiers among headliners, the fodder and Supernovas who are far above that fodder and more like closer to Calamities. Apoo sounds like the best opponent for Sanji to see if hands or legs are better and thats going to be a hard fight. I just dont see Sanji capable of taking on the top tier of the Yonkos underlings. I would love to but nothing backs it up. The only ace would be the raid suit and that has to make wonders.

We don't see Zoro taking on Jack either as he hasn't shown anything to beyond Jack or even take him at all. Also your missing the crucial point I am telling you that Haki evolve with tougher fights if Sanji and Zoro have more tougher fights, they get stronger. Rayleigh just explain this chapters ago and your making it seems Sanji is at his limit when Zoro isn't. Your not doing a good job on being fair really. So now then if your going to be like that then Zoro taking on Yonkos is far out of it too and his best luck after Hawkins situation is just facing Headliners alone too. So to stop the debate until further notice, Zoro and Sanji will be keep respectively and keep hype at a same lvl after their last interactions in fights and so far Sanji show more effort compare to Zoro in his fight with Hawkins, so it's unknown right now if they can take on Calamities until further notice show Oda putting them too.

 

[hokageji]

here are tiers among headliners, the fodder and Supernovas who are far above that fodder and more like closer to Calamities. Apoo sounds like the best opponent for Sanji to see if hands or legs are better and thats going to be a hard fight. I just dont see Sanji capable of taking on the top tier of the Yonkos underlings. I would love to but nothing backs it up. The only ace would be the raid suit and that has to make wonders.

Comeon, even if Apoo is super duper strong, his matchup with Sanji is not logical at all... How would that even be an entertaining match? I

Things about Apoo:
He's like a DJ
has a musical ability that he uses in battle
belongs to the longarm tribe

What part of Sanji fits that? If you are looking for a suitable opponent to Apoo, it gotta be the MVP of whole cake island... Soul King Brook...
DJ vs Soul King
Musical notes vs musical notes
Soul King spent two years with members of the longarm tribe.

I will give it to you that Sheepshead is weak, i agree with that. But even if you consider the strongest possible headliners, like Hawkins or Drake, the matchup against Sanji makes no sense...

I am not saying Sanji is destined to fight Jack, but i definitely entertain the idea of it far more than Zoro... And that has nothing to do with being or not being a Sanji fanboy, it just fits the narrative better than Zoro.... When we are literally in an island filled with Samurais, you cannot say Zoro is not gonna wanna fight the strongest samurai around.. We dont know who it is, but we do know its not Jack.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 14, 2018 ---

i guess anything beyond is subjective and as long as that's understood, we are good....

 

[jaymizzo]

Did Sanji appear in the chapter?

@nik87 No, no one knows that Zoro is far above Sanji in terms of durability. You have literally nothing to base that on. Both you and @King Moe are just stating opinions and trying to pass them off as facts.

@nik87 At the risk of fueling your need to discuss Katakuri... What point is it to bring up Luffy Vs Katakuri when we know Luffy grew stronger during and as a result of the fight. You have absolutely no basis to even suggest that Zoro could be a good match for a Commander. One could argue for Luffy but not Zoro. Zoro being a swordsman does not mean he is a good match up for a Yonkou commander simply because he has a sword. You're forgetting that not only does he has a sword/swords... He also has a DF that could easily be counted as an advantage over Zoro.

So Sanji and Zoro at this point will fare just as equally against Jack, unless shown otherwise. Any tipping towards one side is simply down to favouritism. Could make a case for Luffy beating Jack but anyone else is just pure speculation.

And your statement about the strings... Are you saying that Zoro simply did not want to cut the strings that we causing so much damage? Asking someone to provide proof that Zoro could not cut the strings... When he wasn't cutting them is quite peculiar.

 

[kcd]

Sanji's fans are the worst lol.
And what do you actually expect if his CoA blossoms in the fight? Luffy has far superior CoA which i dont expect Sanji to reach and he cant afford to tank hits of sharp weapons. Do you really believe Sanji would be able to tank sword hits from someone like Jack or you are trolling me?
Luffy was cut by Cracker and avoided every sword attack, he was pierced by Katakuri's spear and also avoided each spear attack other than that one which landed. If Luffy cannot tank such attacks then sure as hell Sanji cant either, no matter how much you want to hype Sanji up.

I disagree that Jinbe has better chances against swordsman than Zoro. Jinbe was cut by both Mihawk and weakened Big Mom. He didnt show anything that he can handle a swordsman.
Everything stops Sanji from defeating Jack and blocking a spear which was intended for Carrot is ridiculous but Sanji fans gotta grab such straws.

Calamity is enough reason for Sanji to stay out of such fight and Calamity swordsman is even bigger reason to keep Sanji away from Jack. @Lexusflame
Judge and Raisin are fodder, why are you even comparing those to someone like Jack? Oven didnt fight Sanji, Daifuku rekted Sanji in first clash and when Sanji blocked his spear he was attacking Carrot. Ridiculous.
Scratchmen Apoo sounds better since he is Supernova which should be weaker than Calamity, didnt seem to use any weapons and probably fights with his hands mainly. Has a strange DF which managed to cut Kizaru but we dont know how it works. I would still give him better chances against Apoo than against Jack.

Where have i overestimated Zoro? I am definitely not underestimating Sanji. Sanji's captain, Luffy, whom i consider worlds apart from Sanji in terms of combat abilities, is barely able to handle such opponents and suddenly fanboys think Sanji is there as well, that he could do it.
What actually can Sanji do against Jack when you think about it? Let's take speed for example, Cat and Dog were faster and didnt do them any good. They were able to dodge Jack's attacks but what good is that from someone who has better durability? Lets take power and lets push Sanji and say that his offensive is better than those from Cat and Dog but is it actually? Cat and Dogs attacks didnt do anything to Jack for 5 days. Also, lets remember that power level of Cat and Dog is above Supernovas, since Bege ran away from such a fight and considered Cat a monster. What can Sanji actually do to Jack?
If raid suit is what makes him possible to beat Jack then it has to give him insane power to actually hurt and take Jack out, without it he has no feats capable of defeating a Calamity. I am not underestimating Sanji, he simply has nothing to deal with Jack.

@hokageji All Strawhats are considered saviours of Zou. I would love if Sanji was able to take on Jack but imo he has nothing to stand up to Jack since thats a tier which is giving Luffy serious problems. There are more people who could take on Calamities instead of Sanji. Luffy, Law, Zoro, Marco if he joins, Cat/Dog in Sulong form. My bet is either a Supernova or a tier under Calamities will be Sanjis opponent.

I understand the frustration because logic is mostly thrown out the window when it concerns Sanji. The fact that Oda decided to power him up with a raid-suit says it all, which is, If he was already as strong as people are making him out to be, then what’s the point of giving him raid suit in the first place. I wonder.
Maybe it’s because his 'character' needed something to make him stronger real quick?

However, having said that, I'm looking at it in a different light. If you would follow my line of reasoning, perhaps you might see it differently too.

Back then when Sanji was a kid, he was considered a failure by his family. But after several years with further G66 advancement in science and technology, there’s no way that Judge haven’t discovered a means of awakening (or partially awakening) sanji's dormant genes.

I believe with the aid of the raid suit (which was specifically made for him), his recessive genes can become dominant, and his skin can naturally become stronger than iron. It'll be so strong that you would need special bullets travelling at really high speed to be able to penetrate his skin (as was shown/elaborated in wholecake).

That’s a really big/relevant power up IMO.

I guess what I’m getting at is that, his durability will increase by a lot. He won’t also be needing blades or weapons when fighting...because his skin would be naturally harder than weapons, be it swords or guns.
Now, add what ever little armament he’s shown so far to his iron skin, and you’ll see that he may just be able to hold his own against Jack.

When facing guys like Jack, other than resilience, it’s your destructive power that counts/matters. You simply have to hit him so hard that it knocks him out or straight up kills them, in order for you to come out the victor. That's the only way other than using underhanded tactics.

Sanji, other than increase in durability, with the aid of the raid suit ofcourse, can also have his element (flames) ability exaggerated as well, for plot purposes, if such battle were to take place.

In conclusion:

Prior raid suit, I think it would be extremely difficult (almost impossible) for sanji to come out victorious as you said, But with the raid suit, it's a whole new game, filled with unknowns that can make him Jack's rival...and that's all subjective if we look at how his brothers (with raid suit) dominated Oven Charlotte prior the special bullets that was effective.
I guess this is my two cents on the matter.

 

[King Moe]

I understand the frustration because logic is mostly thrown out the window when it concerns Sanji. The fact that Oda decided to power him up with a raid-suit says it all, which is, If he was already as strong as people are making him out to be, then what’s the point of giving him raid suit in the first place. I wonder.
Maybe it’s because his 'character' needed something to make him stronger real quick?

However, having said that, I'm looking at it in a different light. If you would follow my line of reasoning, perhaps you might see it differently too.

Back then when Sanji was a kid, he was considered a failure by his family. But after several years with further G66 advancement in science and technology, there’s no way that Judge haven’t discovered a means of awakening (or partially awakening) sanji's dormant genes.

I believe with the aid of the raid suit (which was specifically made for him), his recessive genes can become dominant, and his skin can naturally become stronger than iron. It'll be so strong that you would need special bullets travelling at really high speed to be able to penetrate his skin (as was shown/elaborated in wholecake).

That’s a really big/relevant power up IMO.

I guess what I’m getting at is that, his durability will increase by a lot. He won’t also be needing blades or weapons when fighting...because his skin would be naturally harder than weapons, be it swords or guns.
Now, add what ever little armament he’s shown so far to his iron skin, and you’ll see that he may just be able to hold his own against Jack.

When facing guys like Jack, other than resilience, it’s your destructive power that counts/matters. You simply have to hit him so hard that it knocks him out or straight up kills them, in order for you to come out the victor. That's the only way other than using underhanded tactics.

Sanji, other than increase in durability, with the aid of the raid suit ofcourse, can also have his element (flames) ability exaggerated as well, for plot purposes, if such battle were to take place.

In conclusion:

Prior raid suit, I think it would be extremely difficult (almost impossible) for sanji to come out victorious as you said, But with the raid suit, it's a whole new game, filled with unknowns that can make him Jack's rival...and that's all subjective if we look at how his brothers (with raid suit) dominated Oven Charlotte prior the special bullets that was effective.
I guess this is my two cents on the matter.

Sanji thought won't always rely on the Raid 24/7 to fight like Zoro need his swords 24/7 to fight. There is a difference. Sanji is still capable with or without his suit, but you can't say much on Zoro's part if he loses his sword. Sanji fans have been fine and we are hyping him in logical territory, but with Zoro people overhype him way too much to the point they think he can easily one K.O a character just because he can 'cut'. Remember when this talk was filled with Zoro saying he will easily beat Hawkins in the first encounter? Look what happened after next chapter. Zoro got more damage than him and we are just trying to keep all hype lvls accurate, but not too the moon of both characters.

We aren't saying Sanji will have a easy time with Jack, but if you guys follow the story than fights, it make sense why Jack would face Sanji more than others since Jack probably knows him by name and due to Sanji saving others in Zou and with Pedro's death and flashback about 'keeping the leaders of Zou alive' it continue to hints that Sanji vs Jack is plausible to happen out through the course.

Also I do agree with your point on dormant genes and Raid Suit as my theory is that after Sanji puts on the Raid Suit, the genes are awaken through his bloodstream and he become stronger with his power he already has. Thus with and without the suit, his abilities and strength increase and also can't forget Rayleigh's talk about Haki that the tougher your opponent, the stronger your Haki awakens. Sanji vs Jack will be a good fight to push Sanji to his limits to get stronger out of it. I don't get why you guys don't want to see that as your the ones saying he 'should improve' and we telling you how he can through fighting someone as tough as Jack since Luffy evolved by fighting someone as tough as Katakuri.

 

[nik87]

@hokageji Well, of all the opponents i can think of that are present in Wano, Apoo sounds like the least trouble for Sanji and still would be the hardest battle Sanji had so far. Apoo is supernova after all, thats still a tier above Sanji. I dont picture him having better chances against Hawkins or Drake, not to mention Calamities.
Yes, Brook may be a better matchup but imo Apoo is a bite way too big for Brook to handle.

@jaymizzo well, if you as well dont think that Zoros durability is way above Sanji then i wonder if we are reading the same stuff. There is so much evidence of that that im surprised ppl actually doubting this.

Swordsman is better matchup against swordsman than Sanji, even arguably better than Luffy based on his struggle against Crackers swordplay.
Jacks df looked more like disadvantage in fight with cat and dog.
Yes i am saying Zoro didnt try to cut the strings, only to stop/push them back.

People want Sanji to jump from Vergos level, skipping supernova and shichibukai level, right at Calamity/commander level. Sorry guys, i cant be convinced into believing such a thing.

 

[kcd]

I don't get why you guys don't want to see that as your the ones saying he 'should improve' and we telling you how he can through fighting someone as tough as Jack since Luffy evolved by fighting someone as tough as Katakuri.

I get what you mean here. Personally I want all the strawhats to improve. I don't mind if sanji takes on Jack. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what I want, but I'm keeping my expectations low so as not to be disappointed if it doesn't happen.

I think Oda gave him the suit for a reason, and that is because he wants him to be on that other level asap IMO. That's not to say he won't get to that level on his own as you said, but that it would/might take longer if we follow due process.

There's nothing concrete now, we'll have to wait and see how things develop, especially who will fight whom.

 

[McNuss]

Based on what feats?
You cant just assume someone is at a higher level without any feats or hype from the story, the plot so far has only stated that out of the worst generation only Teach, Drake and Kidd had made the most waves so its not ridiculous to assume Kidd and drake are a cut above the rest since the plot has tried to drive that fact.

Kidd's character arc is that he went way over his head. You can't just run around murdering people shouting "I'm gonna be pirate king". People like that don't inspire loyalty unless they have the strenght to back it up, so it's natural that Kidd's alliance partners have submitted to Kaido. He definitely didn't made the biggest waves, he is actually the first Worst Gen member to drop out. He will get his redemption as a Luffy loyalist for sure though.

Sounds more like Edo Era Japan under the Tokugawa Shogunate than North Korea.

Yup, twisted with the mongol invasion from the middle ages, except that in this scenario the mongols were successful. Plus environmental pollution which is an issue of modern Japan. So yeah, Oda already went full-scale through japanese history, but I bet we will get even more.

Anyone knows what's up with that floating building?

Sanji's fans are the worst lol.
And what do you actually expect if his CoA blossoms in the fight? Luffy has far superior CoA which i dont expect Sanji to reach and he cant afford to tank hits of sharp weapons. Do you really believe Sanji would be able to tank sword hits from someone like Jack or you are trolling me?
Luffy was cut by Cracker and avoided every sword attack, he was pierced by Katakuri's spear and also avoided each spear attack other than that one which landed. If Luffy cannot tank such attacks then sure as hell Sanji cant either, no matter how much you want to hype Sanji up.

I disagree that Jinbe has better chances against swordsman than Zoro. Jinbe was cut by both Mihawk and weakened Big Mom. He didnt show anything that he can handle a swordsman.
Everything stops Sanji from defeating Jack and blocking a spear which was intended for Carrot is ridiculous but Sanji fans gotta grab such straws.

Calamity is enough reason for Sanji to stay out of such fight and Calamity swordsman is even bigger reason to keep Sanji away from Jack. @Lexusflame
Judge and Raisin are fodder, why are you even comparing those to someone like Jack? Oven didnt fight Sanji, Daifuku rekted Sanji in first clash and when Sanji blocked his spear he was attacking Carrot. Ridiculous.
Scratchmen Apoo sounds better since he is Supernova which should be weaker than Calamity, didnt seem to use any weapons and probably fights with his hands mainly. Has a strange DF which managed to cut Kizaru but we dont know how it works. I would still give him better chances against Apoo than against Jack.

I agree with most of what you said except that I think you greatly underestimate the Supernova. Hawkins and Apoo have very tricky Devil Fruits, like Law. We know Law isn't as good as Luffy in close quarter combat, but if you look away just once he does crazy things with you like shredding your organs. Hawkins and Apoo might have their own equivalents for Gamma Knife. Drake was hinted to have remarkable strenght even as a kid, and Urouge defeated a Sweet Commander, albeit the weakest one. Bege is likely one of the weakest of them, because his strenght depends on the people inside him. He still has a remarkable feat, since his trump card could actually tank a Yonko for some time.

I don't see Sanji beating Scratchmen Apoo.

I might be totally wrong about the Supernova though because we haven't seen much of them, let alone post-timeskip. Hawkins didn't impress me much in his little fight with Luffy and Zoro, but he might be the trickiest besides Law.

Also I think Sanji definitely can't defeat a Calamity, but he can contribute in the battle with one for the same reason Crocodile can clash with Mihawk, which is experience or competency. Sanji lacks strenght but he is fairly competent, having good CoO and movement. All Straw Hats passed the point of getting the trash treatment, as long as they are in a group with a powerhouse. Nami, Chopper and Brook performed incredibly vs Big Mom and Jinbei made sure they didn't die.

 

[nik87]

@McNuss It may have seemed that way but no, idont underestimate Supernovas, i am with u on that. I just picked a lesser evil for Sanji to fight, hes outmatched against Supernovas bit better to put him against them than against Calamity. I also said fight vs Apoo would be the hardest so far for Sanji.

People just dont think ahead when it comes to such matchups, they dont think whats next. Where is Sanji going if he beats Calamity, is he going to be yonko level next? Its just ridiculous, time will tell.

 

[King Moe]

@McNuss It may have seemed that way but no, idont underestimate Supernovas, i am with u on that. I just picked a lesser evil for Sanji to fight, hes outmatched against Supernovas bit better to put him against them than against Calamity. I also said fight vs Apoo would be the hardest so far for Sanji.

People just dont think ahead when it comes to such matchups, they dont think whats next. Where is Sanji going if he beats Calamity, is he going to be yonko level next? Its just ridiculous, time will tell.

Since you and McNuss think that way then Zoro probably in the same boat as he got injured by Hawkins being a Supernova, so no reason we should see Zoro being able to fight off a Calamity and then face the Shogun. If you want to keep it fair with Sanji, got toned down overhype fans try with Zoro too much.

 

[Shasha23]

Kidd's character arc is that he went way over his head. You can't just run around murdering people shouting "I'm gonna be pirate king". People like that don't inspire loyalty unless they have the strenght to back it up, so it's natural that Kidd's alliance partners have submitted to Kaido. He definitely didn't made the biggest waves, he is actually the first Worst Gen member to drop out. He will get his redemption as a Luffy loyalist for sure though.

Except the manga back up my point, there have been several characters who have stated on many accounts that Teach, Drake and Kidd were the top among the worst generations since they made the biggest moves.
Do you think Dressrosa level Luffy, Law and Zoro would have beat Kiado? he would have owned them the same as he did Kidd, Killer, Hawkin and Apoo.
If yoiu go re-read the manga you will know that Oda implied Teach, Drake and Kidd made the biggest moves

 

[iseedumbpeople]

Well you cant blame @King Moe . I see at least 3 Sanjis in every one of his posts. He likes Sanji so even if sanji does not show up for 100 chapters he still wants to talk about him. Lets leave him be.

Also @nik87 Zoro has much more durability than Sanji please re-read thriller bark. Extract each and every panel zoro and sanji took dmg. Compare them and compare at what point they lose consciousness and you will see.

Btw lets not go off topic, this panel is about chapter 917. Lets talk about it. For example why have I NOT seen any comment on Luffy&Zoro rescue resembles very very much to the Rayleigh rescue Caimie from that celestial dragon girl on Sabondy? If you compare panels, they look much alike. They look like they used kings haki there. No1 talks about it though, strange if you ask me.

Cheers

 

[King Moe]

Well you cant blame @King Moe . I see at least 3 Sanjis in every one of his posts. He likes Sanji so even if sanji does not show up for 100 chapters he still wants to talk about him. Lets leave him be.

Also @nik87 Zoro has much more durability than Sanji please re-read thriller bark. Extract each and every panel zoro and sanji took dmg. Compare them and compare at what point they lose consciousness and you will see.

Btw lets not go off topic, this panel is about chapter 917. Lets talk about it. For example why have I NOT seen any comment on Luffy&Zoro rescue resembles very very much to the Rayleigh rescue Caimie from that celestial dragon girl on Sabondy? If you compare panels, they look much alike. They look like they used kings haki there. No1 talks about it though, strange if you ask me.

Cheers

Well since we have few members who undermine Sanji despite he isn't in the chapter, someone got to defend him.

Zoro does, but not by miles (Also Sanji only went out due to cheap shot by Zoro, not really due to Kuma. Both were at their last stance against the man honestly.) Both are very close on durability as Sanji took a billion bolt to his body and still kept standing afterwards as well. Both characters are not joke to their durability, so just saying few of you are underestimating Sanji took much while overhyping Zoro too much. We need to keep both characters on right amount of balance on their hype is all I ask.

Sure thing. Now after this chapter. What you all think the others will do next? Also who will win in a fight between Hawkins vs Law in this?

 

[Pirate Queen]

Well since we have few members who undermine Sanji despite he isn't in the chapter, someone got to defend him.

Zoro does, but not by miles (Also Sanji only went out due to cheap shot by Zoro, not really due to Kuma. Both were at their last stance against the man honestly.) Both are very close on durability as Sanji took a billion bolt to his body and still kept standing afterwards as well. Both characters are not joke to their durability, so just saying few of you are underestimating Sanji took much while overhyping Zoro too much. We need to keep both characters on right amount of balance on their hype is all I ask.

Sure thing. Now after this chapter. What you all think the others will do next? Also who will win in a fight between Hawkins vs Law in this?

I have agreed with you alot during this off topic discussion, as I'm sure your aware lol, but I don't agree that Sanji and Zoro are even close when it comes to durability UNTIL there are present feats to back that claim.

Outside of Luffy taking an hours long beating by Katakuri, Zoro has the best feat of durability which was taking in all of Luffy's pain/fatigue without the added benefit of a rubber body.

And while that was Pre Timeskip, Sanji doesn't have a durability feat that can match Zoro there. By your own admission Sanji was simply taken out by a cheap shot of a heavily damaged Zoro while Zoro took in so much more and remained standing.

Nevertheless. overall, Sanji has been underestimated much more in this forum than on Oro Jackson and the reddits I visit. It's no ones fault really (besides Oda)

For how long WCI was, Oda could have easily has Sanji take out Oven, Daifuku, Perospero, or any of the non commander elites of the Big Mom Pirates... But he chose not too, opting to just throwing sanji a raid suit.

If circumstances brought Jack and Sanji face to face, I would expect Sanji to come away with a W, but not without utilizing his Raid Suit, which I am predicting increases his ability to tank blunt/slashing damage.

Just my take

 

[McNuss]

Since you and McNuss think that way then Zoro probably in the same boat as he got injured by Hawkins being a Supernova, so no reason we should see Zoro being able to fight off a Calamity and then face the Shogun. If you want to keep it fair with Sanji, got toned down overhype fans try with Zoro too much.

Zoro got a few scratches. He even blocked some of the nails with his swords as you can see in the panel where he is attacked. Zoro can lose dozens of litres of blood, that was also his highlighted feat in the first Databook, Red.

Except the manga back up my point, there have been several characters who have stated on many accounts that Teach, Drake and Kidd were the top among the worst generations since they made the biggest moves.
Do you think Dressrosa level Luffy, Law and Zoro would have beat Kiado? he would have owned them the same as he did Kidd, Killer, Hawkin and Apoo.
If yoiu go re-read the manga you will know that Oda implied Teach, Drake and Kidd made the biggest moves

And Brulee said the only one that accomplished anything was Urouge. Kidd is in a prison now because he was too stupid and proud to admit defeat like his allies did. We saw Kidd injured, but Apoo at the same time wasn't because Apoo was smart enough too give up and join Kaido for the time being.

Of course Luffy would never surrender either, but it is not below Luffy to run away if his friends are in danger. If the Mugiwara/Heart Alliance would have been in the same situation, they could have escaped due to their superior teamwork and their highly specialized skills, as they did with another Yonko and her whole fleet just recently.

Also, the Straw Hats/Heart(/Mink) Alliance has been incredibly careful (sans Luffy and Zoro lol) so far, always trying to go unseen until no longer possible. Kidd and his allies got their hideout leaked in the newspapers by Absalom, who is invisble but should be sensible by CoO. So if Kidd and Apoo didn't start their little argument and everyone was distracted by the bad atmosphere, they could probably have sensed Absa.

Also, I think there will be no Jack incoming soon because I have a feeling Hawkins and Law will have a little agreement, which is to not inform Kaido, and then Hawkins will do something with Holdem and Speed so the news will not slip.

 

[Pirate Queen]

.

Btw lets not go off topic, this panel is about chapter 917. Lets talk about it. For example why have I NOT seen any comment on Luffy&Zoro rescue resembles very very much to the Rayleigh rescue Caimie from that celestial dragon girl on Sabondy? If you compare panels, they look much alike. They look like they used kings haki there. No1 talks about it though, strange if you ask me.

Cheers

It's not strange. No one used King's Haki in this chapter... That's why no one's talking about it.

How did u even come to that conclusion?

No Lightening with clashes and no one passing out, both indications of King's Haki. Luffy and Zoro just moved incredibly quick...

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 15, 2018 ---

to be fair, Sanji wasn't in this chapter and the majority of the discussion is Sanji feats vs Zoro feat hahaha

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2018 ---

I find it strange Zoro hasn't developed King's Haki yet.

Perhaps Oda doesn't want to over shadow Luffy, but Zoro has plenty of ambition to become the WSS... Perhaps it will develop during his fight with Mihawk or his final fight of the manga.

 

[nik87]

Also @nik87 Zoro has much more durability than Sanji please re-read thriller bark. Extract each and every panel zoro and sanji took dmg. Compare them and compare at what point they lose consciousness and you will see.

Where have I said otherwise?

I'll try to get complete durability review for Sanji and Zoro so we have proper arguments and to be objective as possible.

1. Baratie arc - Sanji took one hit from Gin's tonfa hammers. Zoro got stabbed by Mihawks small blade and his chest got sliced by big blade.
2. Arlong park arc - Sanji had to endure water pressure and hold his breath. Zoro took a head bump to the fresh wound from Mihawk, got pierced by Arlongs nose and got the bandages ripped off.
3. Alabasta arc - Sanji took a kick to the head, double kick to the head, countless leg clashes, sliced by mascara blades, pierced by swan extensions, countless more hits. Zoro got injured by a crashing building, hit by spinning blades twice and two times with slashing attacks of mr1.
4. Skypiea arc - Sanji took a hit from impact dial twice and one hit from Enel's DF. Zoro got shot by Braham on his leg, took two hits from Enel's DF, pierced by iron cloud dial trap, cut by Ohm's sword.
5. Water 7 arc - Prior to arriving at Water 7 both had body parts frozen by Aokiji. Sanji took a slash from Blueno and got slammed into the ground, took a beating from Kalifa. He got punched back into a wall by Jabra twice, additionally took a punch and slashing attacks and lastly took a 5 finger pistol to his torso. Zoro took a finger pistol and kick from Lucci. Slammed by Kaku's Giraffe neck, took countless slashes which bounced off the ceiling, took a head bump and countless head/neck slaps from Kaku's Giraffe form and several slashes from "4 sword style".
6. Thriller Bark arc - Sanji took several hits from Absalom while holding Nami and several hits after falling on the ground. He also took a slap and some beating from Oars. Sanji took Ursus Shock from Kuma. Zoro took a head slap, head bump and knee kick into a building from Oars. He took Ursus shock from Kuma as well. Small burn from Kuma's air pressure, repelled back into the rubble by Kuma's DF fruit, blown away into the rubble by the explosion from Kuma's laser, took all pain and suffering Luffy endured during a fight with Moriah on top of his own.
7. Sabaody arc + 2 year time-skip - Both took a beating from Kuma/Pacifista. Sanji took a beating from Okama Kenpo masters. Zoro took a beating from fighting baboons.
8. Punk Hazard arc - Sanji had to endure few clashes with Vergo and fractured a bone.
9. Dressrosa arc - Sanji took a beating from Viola and was sliced by Doffy's strings. Zoro was pressed into the earth by Fujitora's gravity.
10. WCI arc - Sanji was sent flying into the rubble by Daifuku's genie, was grazed by a bullet after the wedding, slammed into the ground while carrying Luffy by BM's combatant who used skywalk, was beaten up by his brothers, Judge slammed him into the ground followed by electric kick and blaster kick and blasted away by final hit from Judge.
11. Wano arc - Zoro was hit by nails from Hawkins' doll.

Thats all i was able to find and i think its as objective as i can possibly make it. The list is focused mainly on the damage they took. You can decide for yourself whose endurance is better, who took more severe damage, who fought stronger opponents and who had to endure fights with injuries.

 

[Pro Ban Corps]

Sanji's fans are the worst lol.
And what do you actually expect if his CoA blossoms in the fight? Luffy has far superior CoA which i dont expect Sanji to reach and he cant afford to tank hits of sharp weapons. Do you really believe Sanji would be able to tank sword hits from someone like Jack or you are trolling me?
Luffy was cut by Cracker and avoided every sword attack, he was pierced by Katakuri's spear and also avoided each spear attack other than that one which landed. If Luffy cannot tank such attacks then sure as hell Sanji cant either, no matter how much you want to hype Sanji up.

I disagree that Jinbe has better chances against swordsman than Zoro. Jinbe was cut by both Mihawk and weakened Big Mom. He didnt show anything that he can handle a swordsman.
Everything stops Sanji from defeating Jack and blocking a spear which was intended for Carrot is ridiculous but Sanji fans gotta grab such straws.

Calamity is enough reason for Sanji to stay out of such fight and Calamity swordsman is even bigger reason to keep Sanji away from Jack. @Lexusflame
Judge and Raisin are fodder, why are you even comparing those to someone like Jack? Oven didnt fight Sanji, Daifuku rekted Sanji in first clash and when Sanji blocked his spear he was attacking Carrot. Ridiculous.
Scratchmen Apoo sounds better since he is Supernova which should be weaker than Calamity, didnt seem to use any weapons and probably fights with his hands mainly. Has a strange DF which managed to cut Kizaru but we dont know how it works. I would still give him better chances against Apoo than against Jack.

Where have i overestimated Zoro? I am definitely not underestimating Sanji. Sanji's captain, Luffy, whom i consider worlds apart from Sanji in terms of combat abilities, is barely able to handle such opponents and suddenly fanboys think Sanji is there as well, that he could do it.
What actually can Sanji do against Jack when you think about it? Let's take speed for example, Cat and Dog were faster and didnt do them any good. They were able to dodge Jack's attacks but what good is that from someone who has better durability? Lets take power and lets push Sanji and say that his offensive is better than those from Cat and Dog but is it actually? Cat and Dogs attacks didnt do anything to Jack for 5 days. Also, lets remember that power level of Cat and Dog is above Supernovas, since Bege ran away from such a fight and considered Cat a monster. What can Sanji actually do to Jack?
If raid suit is what makes him possible to beat Jack then it has to give him insane power to actually hurt and take Jack out, without it he has no feats capable of defeating a Calamity. I am not underestimating Sanji, he simply has nothing to deal with Jack.

@hokageji All Strawhats are considered saviours of Zou. I would love if Sanji was able to take on Jack but imo he has nothing to stand up to Jack since thats a tier which is giving Luffy serious problems. There are more people who could take on Calamities instead of Sanji. Luffy, Law, Zoro, Marco if he joins, Cat/Dog in Sulong form. My bet is either a Supernova or a tier under Calamities will be Sanjis opponent.

Luffys haki Got cut, while he wasn’t expecting it...

Where have I said otherwise?

I'll try to get complete durability review for Sanji and Zoro so we have proper arguments and to be objective as possible.

1. Baratie arc - Sanji took one hit from Gin's tonfa hammers. Zoro got stabbed by Mihawks small blade and his chest got sliced by big blade.
2. Arlong park arc - Sanji had to endure water pressure and hold his breath. Zoro took a head bump to the fresh wound from Mihawk, got pierced by Arlongs nose and got the bandages ripped off.
3. Alabasta arc - Sanji took a kick to the head, double kick to the head, countless leg clashes, sliced by mascara blades, pierced by swan extensions, countless more hits. Zoro got injured by a crashing building, hit by spinning blades twice and two times with slashing attacks of mr1.
4. Skypiea arc - Sanji took a hit from impact dial twice and one hit from Enel's DF. Zoro got shot by Braham on his leg, took two hits from Enel's DF, pierced by iron cloud dial trap, cut by Ohm's sword.
5. Water 7 arc - Prior to arriving at Water 7 both had body parts frozen by Aokiji. Sanji took a slash from Blueno and got slammed into the ground, took a beating from Kalifa. He got punched back into a wall by Jabra twice, additionally took a punch and slashing attacks and lastly took a 5 finger pistol to his torso. Zoro took a finger pistol and kick from Lucci. Slammed by Kaku's Giraffe neck, took countless slashes which bounced off the ceiling, took a head bump and countless head/neck slaps from Kaku's Giraffe form and several slashes from "4 sword style".
6. Thriller Bark arc - Sanji took several hits from Absalom while holding Nami and several hits after falling on the ground. He also took a slap and some beating from Oars. Sanji took Ursus Shock from Kuma. Zoro took a head slap, head bump and knee kick into a building from Oars. He took Ursus shock from Kuma as well. Small burn from Kuma's air pressure, repelled back into the rubble by Kuma's DF fruit, blown away into the rubble by the explosion from Kuma's laser, took all pain and suffering Luffy endured during a fight with Moriah on top of his own.
7. Sabaody arc + 2 year time-skip - Both took a beating from Kuma/Pacifista. Sanji took a beating from Okama Kenpo masters. Zoro took a beating from fighting baboons.
8. Punk Hazard arc - Sanji had to endure few clashes with Vergo and fractured a bone.
9. Dressrosa arc - Sanji took a beating from Viola and was sliced by Doffy's strings. Zoro was pressed into the earth by Fujitora's gravity.
10. WCI arc - Sanji was sent flying into the rubble by Daifuku's genie, was grazed by a bullet after the wedding, slammed into the ground while carrying Luffy by BM's combatant who used skywalk, was beaten up by his brothers, Judge slammed him into the ground followed by electric kick and blaster kick and blasted away by final hit from Judge.
11. Wano arc - Zoro was hit by nails from Hawkins' doll.

Thats all i was able to find and i think its as objective as i can possibly make it. The list is focused mainly on the damage they took. You can decide for yourself whose endurance is better, who took more severe damage, who fought stronger opponents and who had to endure fights with injuries.

facts still stands that Zoro fans don’t use their brains. What weapon does Sanji use?? None. So he’ll take more damage in fights than anyone. Take for example vs Vergo, if that was zoro he’d block with swords. I think that’s why Oda gave Sanji a weaponised suit.
Anyways with your in-depth analysis of damages taken, all it tells me is they’re about the same in terms of durability. Beside all through WCI which you listed all his “Ls” as you people like to see them, he still kept going. If not for him Luffy woulda died.
If anything your analysis tells me he’s more durable than you’re giving him credit for. In The new world Sanji has taken more damage than Zoro has, and these are from top fighters too so it’s not so wrong when people say they’re close in durability.
And take Thriller bark... prior to Ursus shock, Zoro took close to no damage from your analysis and Sanji had taken cannon shots and whatever hits he took. And he still managed to stand???
Also bear in mind Sanji doesn’t even train like Zoro does and he’s still showing incredible durability.
Learn to give credit where credit is due fam.
You shot yourself in the leg with your analysis.