Discussion Elizabeth

[MrSchmitty7]

Why then is the potential 40k+ difference between deri and Eli’s stats disregarded? It is indeed difficult to ascertain using other individuals which is why her limited displays don’t give much above the one poor display. Of course, I do not say that Eli’s durability is all that impressive. I merely conclude that if she were to take greater force in a different manner and location of body as well as actually having the intent of combat, results would be different. However there is the case of using magic to protect against damage so, her natural durability may be, even still, not all that high

It’s not disregarded it’s just that Deri is an expert in physical combat while Elizabeth is more magic orientated. That’s why the distribution matters because it happens with other characters. Ban at 3K snapped Mela’s neck at 30K+ for the reason that Mela isn’t a physical monster. Other characters like Mel are rounded all around, so they don’t really have many exploits.

As for a different area of the body, maybe, but blunt force like that still exists and is still accounted for as a part of durability.

 

[T25]

It’s not disregarded it’s just that Deri is an expert in physical combat while Elizabeth is more magic orientated. That’s why the distribution matters because it happens with other characters. Ban at 3K snapped Mela’s neck at 30K+ for the reason that Mela isn’t a physical monster. Other characters like Mel are rounded all around, so they don’t really have many exploits.

As for a different area of the body, maybe, but blunt force like that still exists and is still accounted for as a part of durability.

That’s my point. You understand that a large difference in physical stats is a quite possibly valid justification for feats regarding the two but you also told me that you couldn’t find a reason for why Eli was koed despite knowing full well the disparity of the twos physical attributes. I cannot make sense of this.

Agreed. But that does not mean that a natural weak spot is the only thing to account for when discussing durability as a whole no?

 

[MrSchmitty7]

That’s my point. You understand that a large difference in physical stats is a quite possibly valid justification for feats regarding the two but you also told me that you couldn’t find a reason for why Eli was koed despite knowing full well the disparity of the twos physical attributes. I cannot make sense of this.

Agreed. But that does not mean that a natural weak spot is the only thing to account for when discussing durability as a whole no?

Because a persons personal weaknesses aren’t excuses. If Eli is weak in the physical department that’s on her. We can’t just wait for her to get buff before we count anything as a loss.

As for “weak spots”, once again you’re only as strong as your weakest link. You can’t just ignore those in favor of other areas. Opponents won’t do that

 

[T25]

Because a persons personal weaknesses aren’t excuses. If Eli is weak in the physical department that’s on her. We can’t just wait for her to get buff before we count anything as a loss.

....What is your point? We have already established that she is weak in the physical department. Done. That is out of the way. Why did you say that you couldn’t find a reason for why Eli was koed if you stated, in typed words, with the same hands, that the difference in physical strength and the distribution of stats is important? Which is why you said that Matrona knocking out Diane “made sense.”

As for “weak spots”, once again you’re only as strong as your weakest link. You can’t just ignore those in favor of other areas. Opponents won’t do that

So king is only as strong as his physical stat? There is a truth and a lie to that phrase is there not?

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Why did you say that you couldn’t find a reason for why Eli was koed if you stated, in typed words, with the same hands, that the difference in physical strength and the distribution of stats is important?

If I’m not mistaken I’m sure I’ve said I couldn’t find a valid excuse as to why she was KO’ed. As in I can’t think of any reason why she wouldn’t be in that situation. As in her being KO’ed makes sense.

As for King being strong as his physical stats, assuming that he didn’t get an increase in that area then it’s very possible that yes that could limit him in battle. If he fought someone who was a physical powerhouse that landed maybe one or two good punches, then he could be ko’ed. However, King has shown that he has great reflexes, excellent speed, and his sacred treasure now protects him from direct impact almost instantly. I haven’t seen Elizabeth really show these aspects yet.

 

[T25]

If I’m not mistaken I’m sure I’ve said I couldn’t find a valid excuse as to why she was KO’ed. As in I can’t think of any reason why she wouldn’t be in that situation. As in her being KO’ed makes sense.

You see I would understand, if you were referring to durability, that is. For the duration of this discussion we’ve had for quite the amount of time now, you, and as a result me as well, have been switching between two points of focus: durability and reaction. As of my format, the page before the last page of the chapter 282 discussion thread is where I commented on your response to undina, wherein you stated that nobody really switches to fight mode and that the mode “along with your reflexes are a natural response.” To which I replied that if one has no intention of fighting, one is not in fight mode. You proceeded to tell me that that is biologically inaccurate, as adrenaline is involuntary. After that, I stated that I had discussed with you of adrenaline before, noting that you had disregarded my statements on panic. Upon reading that, you stated that, you did not disregard it but merely that you did not see it as fitting because you didn’t see a person trained as a warrior to be subject to panic attacks and that your main point was that you could not find an excuse for why she was knocked out.

We were discussing reaction before you brought up a point that included a reaction component and a durability component. So, in my following statement I included both of those. My comment on “it could be panic or it could be adrenaline” was indeed slightly inaccurate because they both are/or involve adrenaline, but even so, I stated that her reaction was inadequate and that the difference in physical strength between deri and Eli was enough to surmise the physicality/durability component of the KO, something that you have just confirmed to me you agree with. However, in your reply, instead of agreeing with me, you chose to state that it begs the question of why sariel was able to withstand attacks from the same person despite being possibly weaker than Eli, to which I proceeded to tell you was misinformation. You tried to contradict me even though you stated recently that you agree with the assessment. Why?

And now, in the current second paragraph of this comment you sent me, you proceed to switch to reaction yet again.

As for King being strong as his physical stats, assuming that he didn’t get an increase in that area then it’s very possible that yes that could limit him in battle. If he fought someone who was a physical powerhouse that landed maybe one or two good punches, then he could be ko’ed. However, King has shown that he has great reflexes, excellent speed, and his sacred treasure now protects him from direct impact almost instantly. I haven’t seen Elizabeth really show these aspects yet.

Given the nature of the depiction of her character, as in the fact that we have quite recently gotten to see the original back and that she is not of her original power or body, is why we cannot make conclusive statements about the extent of her actual abilities especially those of 3000 years ago and it’s history we know near nothing of.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

You tried to contradict me even though you stated recently that you agree with the assessment. Why?

And now, in the current second paragraph of this comment you sent me, you proceed to switch to reaction yet again.

On what grounds did I contradict by asking a question? I asked why was Sariel able to tank a punch but Elizabeth wasn't. I was trying to see if perhaps his durability was a bit better

Given the nature of the depiction of her character, as in the fact that we have quite recently gotten to see the original back and that she is not of her original power or body, is why we cannot make conclusive statements about the extent of her actual abilities especially those of 3000 years ago and it’s history we know near nothing of.

But here's why I don't like to guess with characters outside of what has been said or shown. The problem with that is that we get a billion different interpretations. By guessing Elizabeth's power we had:
1. Elizabeth is equal to assault Mel
2. Elizabeth surpasses Mel with sunshine
3. Elizabeth is 100K
4. Human Elizabeth is 100K and Goddess Elizabeth is even greater
5. Elizabeth is 10C tier
6. Elizabeth is trash

Naturally number 3 won since virtually every option was listed, but in my belief things would've been much better/caused less confusion/ made the threads much simpler if we just went off what was shown and then evolved from their. That's why I say Elizabeth has good magic, but not the best physical performances. If she is proven stronger in the future cool, but I'd rather have one opinion that gets changed instead of 6 that cause pages upon pages of debate with subjective feelings.

 

[T25]

On what grounds did I contradict by asking a question? I asked why was Sariel able to tank a punch but Elizabeth wasn't. I was trying to see if perhaps his durability was a bit better

On the grounds that durability was still the topic of discussion even though we had established an agreed upon notion. If that is the reason you wish to tell me regarding why you brought up sariel, I will leave it at that

But here's why I don't like to guess with characters outside of what has been said or shown. The problem with that is that we get a billion different interpretations. By guessing Elizabeth's power we had:
1. Elizabeth is equal to assault Mel
2. Elizabeth surpasses Mel with sunshine
3. Elizabeth is 100K
4. Human Elizabeth is 100K and Goddess Elizabeth is even greater
5. Elizabeth is 10C tier
6. Elizabeth is trash

Naturally number 3 won since virtually every option was listed, but in my belief things would've been much better/caused less confusion/ made the threads much simpler if we just went off what was shown and then evolved from their. That's why I say Elizabeth has good magic, but not the best physical performances. If she is proven stronger in the future cool, but I'd rather have one opinion that gets changed instead of 6 that cause pages upon pages of debate with subjective feelings.

I absolutely agree. But I will admit that my starting point maybe a bit higher than yours. There is discussing details and then there’s discussing generalities. Another issue is the belief in something so strongly that when it is confirmed incorrect, those subject to being incorrect lose a giant chunk of reason. Determining and discussing the validity of their statements afterwards can be...difficult

 

[MrSchmitty7]

On the grounds that durability was still the topic of discussion even though we had established an agreed upon notion. If that is the reason you wish to tell me regarding why you brought up sariel, I will leave it at that

Yeah I wasn't trying to bring Sariel into the equation like Elizabeth, I was just trying to see what you thought of his durability.

I absolutely agree. But I will admit that my starting point maybe a bit higher than yours.

Well in that case it would just depend on personal preference on how we wish to gauge characters, neither one is wrong so no problems there. If your starting point for her is higher I have no problem with that.

 

[T25]

Yeah I wasn't trying to bring Sariel into the equation like Elizabeth, I was just trying to see what you thought of his durability.

Oh? Well. Not as great as Mel. Probably above king. Sound about right?

Well in that case it would just depend on personal preference on how we wish to gauge characters, neither one is wrong so no problems there. If your starting point for her is higher I have no problem with that.

Well the manga may prove statements wrong so there is that. And if yours is lower and mine higher, or vice versa, we shall see how things work out no?

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Oh? Well. Not as great as Mel. Probably above king. Sound about right?

Yeah I could see him around there.

Well the manga may prove statements wrong so there is that. And if yours is lower and mine higher, or vice versa, we shall see how things work out no?

Most likely in the near future, I can see that happening.

 

[T25]

Yeah I could see him around there.


Most likely in the near future, I can see that happening.

He relied quite heavily on his grace for defense and had healing to further amplify it. It’s a pretty solid defense effort

Statements piling up makes it seem pretty evident

 

[Rigel]

With this precedent of innate magic, Elizabeth can possibly be explored through this.

His magic could be a form of battle, which goes against his pacifism and shows a side we do not know. Totally taken from the anus, but...

 

[OtakuFreak]

Here's an interesting theory of mine regarding the Goddess Elizabeth:

Before her relationship with Meliodas formed, she was a potential warrior and fighter for the Goddess Clan in multiple wars/battles and wasn't as much as a peacemaker as she currently is.

Meliodas and Elizabeth met in the battles between the Demons and Goddesses. Implies that she was fighting as well to a certain degree, and given how she is supposedly comparable to Meliodas outside Assault Mode, would make sense since maybe they fought and had their relationship develop from there?

Spoiler: Elizabeth and Meliodas meeting on the battlefield

Mael refers to Elizabeth and Ludoshel both as ''soldiers'' which is incorrect given the current narrative of Elizabeth's character. But maybe she was once a warrior, but changed into a much more kinder peacemaker? Similar to how Meliodas had a change of heart when he was with Elizabeth.

Spoiler: 282

It would be an interesting premise if Elizabeth was more comfortable with the idea of fighting prior to meeting Meliodas given she was apart of battles and was called a ''soldier'' by one of the Four Archangels. Meliodas thought the battles were foolish but still participated in them out of honour, maybe it was the same for Elizabeth? But when they met each other, Elizabeth became more kind hearted and so did Meliodas.

Could make even further sense given that the SD's willing to break the curse if Elizabeth was ready to contribute to the war in her name as a ''soldier'' perhaps? I highly doubt Elizabeth grew up to a full-fledged Goddess equal in strength to Ludoshel as a peacemaker and wasn't already punished or changed by her mother.

Ideas?

 

[T25]

Capable of Ark? You means the useless Ark that didn't do shit during the Mael fiasco? Sure lol.

You can't read? I say support in an offensive sense, I know already that she is the healer and the doctor of the group.
She was still useless because she failed to heal King faster than usual.
And because of that, his dog lost his life.

I don't need to omniscient, I just look on her personality and her look and opinion toward fighting in general.
She hate it, doesn't seems to be interested and passionate by it hence why she is a pacifist.
That is why I said that she doesn't have a fighting background.

Ignoring that she was the damsel in distress in the entire operation of rescue? That it is for rescuing her that they are here?

That she was the first to suggest to run away?

At least, the rest actually fight back, they tried to fight, what about her? Nothing lmao.

She is just like a background doctor.

I don't see Meliodas asking the sins to run away and hides for their life in that scene.

Yes, and?

Yes the ark she didn’t use does mean it didn’t do anything.

No she did not offer offensive support. Her ark would have no effect on him apparently. Similar reason for why he didn’t do anything here:

Mel was useless because he couldn’t kill the dk in those 60 years of fighting. Is this your reasoning?

You look at her personality. So did you know that Mel was the most wicked demon given his part one personality?

Sariel and Tamriel were taken down. An entire army was there that would have been killed. Every single person there had there life in danger which made her ultimately accept going with them to avoid casualties, yet you claim that I am ignoring that she was the only one in danger as if her reason for going in the first place wasnt to attempt to alleviate casualties. Then let me add two more: Eli when she was taken by estarossa and everyone at the scene of the incident when Eli chose to prevent their casualties.

Didn’t I say that she said it. What was the likelyhood that they would have survived if king didn’t power up?

Yes the rest chose to fight and she chose to support them with her healing.

.....Mel was there? Were the 10 in front of the 7 so he had to worry about their immediate safety?

 

[sobreno]

Yes the ark she didn’t use does mean it didn’t do anything.

No she did not offer offensive support. Her ark would have no effect on him apparently. Similar reason for why he didn’t do anything here:

Mel was useless because he couldn’t kill the dk in those 60 years of fighting. Is this your reasoning?

You look at her personality. So did you know that Mel was the most wicked demon given his part one personality?

Sariel and Tamriel were taken down. An entire army was there that would have been killed. Every single person there had there life in danger which made her ultimately accept going with them to avoid casualties, yet you claim that I am ignoring that she was the only one in danger as if her reason for going in the first place wasnt to attempt to alleviate casualties. Then let me add two more: Eli when she was taken by estarossa and everyone at the scene of the incident when Eli chose to prevent their casualties.

Didn’t I say that she said it. What was the likelyhood that they would have survived if king didn’t power up?

Yes the rest chose to fight and she chose to support them with her healing.

.....Mel was there? Were the 10 in front of the 7 so he had to worry about their immediate safety?

Hence why I said that she is useless battle wise, because of her own personality lmao.

How you would know? You know the future? I would use your own words against you in this case.
At least, she should tried but nope.

At least, Meliodas tried to kill, unlike her.
She didn't TRY AT ALL.
You miserably failed to see that these two instances are completely different.

What is the point about Mel? Do you even understand the point of this discussion? Lmao, you are out of topic.

Yeah, it doesn't change the fact that she was the damsel in distress lmao.
She was kidnapped and needed help, once help came, she didn't provide meaningful support.
She was " just " there where she could do a lot more.
Even her strongest part, her healing part, was slow as hell, more slower than usual.
What a coincidence lmao.

She choose to support them and that confirms once again what I said about her zero battle background. She is just a support and she was far from being great in the Mael fight.

Nel was surprised that they broken out of their seal that suddenly lol.
He wasn't worried about them in that instant.

 

[T25]

Hence why I said that she is useless battle wise, because of her own personality lmao.

How you would know? You know the future? I would use your own words against you in this case.
At least, she should tried but nope.

At least, Meliodas tried to kill, unlike her.
She didn't TRY AT ALL.
You miserably failed to see that these two instances are completely different.

What is the point about Mel? Do you even understand the point of this discussion? Lmao, you are out of topic.

Yeah, it doesn't change the fact that she was the damsel in distress lmao.
She was kidnapped and needed help, once help came, she didn't provide meaningful support.
She was " just " there where she could do a lot more.
Even her strongest part, her healing part, was slow as hell, more slower than usual.
What a coincidence lmao.

She choose to support them and that confirms once again what I said about her zero battle background. She is just a support and she was far from being great in the Mael fight.

Nel was surprised that they broken out of their seal that suddenly lol.
He wasn't worried about them in that instant.

Very well

 

[Undina]

Naturally number 3 won

Where did that win and where in these forums are that and all the other 5 points anything else than crassly subjective interpretations since we have no statements of her PL in her original form, yet we have a manga statement from a character that would place her somewhere in the 142k+ - 200k+ range?! The comparison with Mel, Ludo and Mael stays until Nakaba himself actually deunks it.

 

[sobreno]

Where did that win and where in these forums are that and all the other 5 points anything else than crassly subjective interpretations since we have no statements of her PL in her original form, yet we have a manga statement from a character that would place her somewhere in the 142k+ - 200k+ range?! The comparison with Mel, Ludo and Mael stays until Nakaba himself actually deunks it.

You mean a biased statement from a single character that is blinded by love and admiration?

She is nowhere close, she didn't take out a foe at 100K or 200K even.
On the contrary, she was knocked out by a mere 50K punch.

The factual proof that Mael's statement was bullshit is that Ludo himself disagree.
He states that he is no match for his brother near noon.
Same for Sariel who called him the strongest of the 4 Archsngels.
Same for the Goddess Clan who sacrificed everything after hearing his death.

That is the difference between a single biased line and several quotes and statements from several characters + an entire Clan.

Ludo himself sacrifices his body lmao, way to fanboy over damsel in distress.

 

[Undina]

Based on feats, you mean lmao. Unlike the damsel in distress who horribly lack it.

She is far from restricted as noted by Merlin and Derrierie.
Elizabeth being a warrior? A talented warrior like Mel? And you wonder why you are a joke lmao.
She was so talented that she received a grace from a mom, sure.

Naruto is well know shonen, and just like DBZ, the stereotypes in them are quite similar.

In case you ignores it, KB is also a shonen written by Nakaba and it is similar to NNT when it comes to the MC.

She has feats as a goddess above those of the 4 AAs, physicality aside.
Until Ludociel goes anywhere near soloing at least 1 Indura, he's inferior to her with his Grace.
She faced what looks like AM Mel without a Grace.
There is no statement or implication whatsoever in this series that she ever needed to hold a Grace to be ranked as high as those guys, yet they all acknowledged her power.
Merlin has been shown to not know everything about Elizabeth and Meliodas' past as some like to think. And she was talking about Elizabeth's ability, clearly not her full PL. The heterochromia and the statements about the importance of the vessel for a goddess soul to deliver its best in magic still bear the same implication. She is currently not at full power.
Derrieri has only ever made a statement about the nature of her power, not its extent at this given time nor its extent back when she was in her original body. She can't read PLs.
The joke is always on you for trying to overhype Meliodas, the same guy who was the first character to make positive statements about Elizabeth's power. You've been trying for ages to pass his comments off for pitying encouragements even though more and more characters are joining into placing Elizabeth in the AM Mel, Mael and Ludociel's general tier.
Dude, get over the whole goddess clan blah, blah, blah! We already know the "choice" about the CoED was based on entirely subjective machinations due to Gowther Sr's personal grudge.
I've heard you had serious reasons to stay away for these few months, but you should've caught up with the manga before coming back. And I mean it, catch up with the actual manga, not some shabbily and subjectively written reaction to some wikia synopsys.