Discussion Vice-Admirals: Oda´s biggest mistake?

[Kato756]

A few FYI before you read this
1)This is not a rant, just a construtive critiscim on the structure of OP´s world and Oda´s writing
2)Tsuru and Garp are not counted as Vice-Admirals in my eyes, because they are from a older generation and pretty much did not want to advance.
3)This takes into account what we have seen in the story so far. Any number of stuff could happen in the future and rend this thread null
4) While WB´s main crew streght is debatable, I went into this with the idea that any of the Pirates that suported Whitebeard but were not part of his crew were BELOW Yonkou Commander-level

Why Oda´s overuse of Vice-Admirals has killed any tension when they are in scene, the essay:


Oda´s not perfect. Nor i need him to be.
He makes one of the greatest series ever.

He also has a reputation of being great at foreshadowing and setting up, which is indeed true.
However, we also have proof that he does not plan everything: The idea that OP would last only 5 years, the early designs of the Shichibukai and Yonkou, etc.

And in a story about pirates, its easy to assume that the marines would play a huge role as antagonist forces.
Their main fighters, the Admirals, are a force to be reckoned with and we are still unsure, even after everything that he has shown so far,that Luffy could beat one of them 1v1.
The same can be said about the Yonkous, and while not as close as them, their commanders sure could put a fight against Luffy.
So, do we have a counterpart of the YC on the Marines?
Well.
Nope

Whenever theres too much of something, that something becomes less special, and that seems to be the case, at least for me, when we talk about the Vice-Admirals.
According to OP wikia, it is the marine rank with the highest numbers of members...yet...it is supossed to be the rank right below Admiral

AKA the guys that have to stand up to a Yonkou face, Punch it, and make them feel that Punch.

But...when you look at their (VAs) feats...what do we have?

Almost being turned to stone by a Shichibukai?
Being stopped by the incredible DECALVAN BROTHERS?
Getting One Shoted by WB? (not a unfair comparition when YCommanders have been shown to stand up to Admirals)
Being rekted by Bartolomeo?

Of course, its not that the whole Vice Admiral class is useless, but outside of Momonga, could you see any of the Vice-Admirals beating any of the current SH on one-to-one combat? Would freaking DALMATIAN be able to do something against Chopper?

And this is why I think that, because Oda likes to extend the story (and we like that he does that) in combination with the constant escalation that is needed into a Shounen, that the way Oda handled the Vice-Admirals is a mistake.
Now, the guys that should replace any of the Admirals should they fall are (as far as the story has shown us) nowhere NEAR that required level of power.

While the Power Level of admirals is a matter of hot debate in this fandom, I think its safe to say that it is universally agreed that even if they´d lose 100% of the time, that any of the Admirals would put a hell of a fight against a Yonkou.
Could you say the same of ANY Vice-Admiral? AKA THE GUYS WHO ARE THE NEXT IN LINE FOR THE ADMIRAL TITLE?

The worst part of this issue is that we have a rank below that, called Rear-Admiral, that is VASTLY underused.
The main Rear-Admiral we know of is Hina, and while she´d probally be owned by the strongest members of the SH crew, its not like we wouldn´t believe she´d be capable of fighting the lower members of the SHs, specially if many of the current VAs were actually RAs.

To end this

Its not that I think that the Vice Admirals SHOULD be equal to the Yonkou Commanders.
What I do think is that they should´ve recivied better treatment along the story so as to keep being credible threats to our main characters, which, as of now, they aren´t.
Which could´ve been avoided if Oda used the Rear Admiral position more often, since it has that "Admiral" title on it to make it more impressive.

PS: I know its been stated that the WG needs the whole marines + Shichibukai to counter ONE Yonkou,and thats fine.
Again, I don´t want them to be YC Level, just that the rank right below Admiral to not be such pushovers.

 

[TitaniumOxide]

You are absolutely right...for the most part. Here's my 2 or 3 cents. I agree, the vice admirals suck or seem to rly suck right now. Doflamingo said as much. There was a special draft to recruit Isshou and Green Bull. They were not promoted from VA...hell I'm not even sure if they were in the marines. What I do wonder is what the hell were their occupations before? I have nothing to back this up but I have a feeling Green Bull might have been the former leader of CP0... they have to have connections to the world gov to bypass being a vice admiral. Doflamingo said they were drafted. Even the Marines know their current line up of vice admirals suck. They couldn't catch one Straw Hat at the end of the Enies Lobby incident where Lucci gets his ass handed to him. So in all this I agree.

I personally feel that even though as a whole, the VAs seem to not have been capable of much, we need to remember, rank is just a rank. Their individual achievements are more important. Garp the fist for example. Smoker is another. He keeps getting owned but I know he will get stronger. The thing is we know only of their failures, we don't know their success. In time Oda may shed more light and "fix" this issue I think. I wonder what other great achievements the other VAs has done? It couldn't possibly be all bad lol.

 

[Fox666]

Fans overestimated the vice-admirals because of Garp. But it's not the author fault that they ignored everything else. The show was very consistent with the vice-admirals strength.

 

[Shasha23]

I don´t want them to be YC Level, just that the rank right below Admiral to not be such pushovers.

Gion and Tokikake say hello.

Well i guess the VA class marines are not really impressive, but there are people like Gion and Tokikake who are strong enough to be considered for Amiral promotion.

 

[hokageji]

You do have some admirable vice admirals...

I thought Onigumo was pretty strong, didnt he manage to stop Marco? Doberman seems to be in the Akainu school of thought, so thats something too.
There are some weak vice-admirals like Smoker, but at the end of the day i guess their ranking is similar to bounty system.
While bounties are proportional to the threat they serve, i guess rankings could be propotional to the threats they've stopped. Its also the marines, they arent free of corruption ya know. John Giant was purchased as a kid and trained is one such instance. So some weaklings maybe rising up due to their influence and some others might remain no higher than vice-admiral because of politics.

 

[McNuss]

2)Tsuru and Garp are not counted as Vice-Admirals in my eyes, because they are from a older generation and pretty much did not want to advance.

Nothing suggests Tsuru has strenght worthy of the rank admiral.

4) While WB´s main crew streght is debatable, I went into this with the idea that any of the Pirates that suported Whitebeard but were not part of his crew were BELOW Yonkou Commander-level

We don't know how strong the allied crews are. If we assume the Yonko crews are evenly distributed, they could go anywhere from Bobbin to Perospero.

Why Oda´s overuse of Vice-Admirals has killed any tension when they are in scene, the essay:

Vice Admirals are barely used at all what are you talking about?

So, do we have a counterpart of the YC on the Marines?
Well.
Nope

Wrong. Garp is for all purposes a Vice Admiral for example. "Yonko Commander" is a fan term, not something that exists in the series anyways. The "YCs" at Marineford were no match for the admirals at all. The Marines vastly overpower an individual Yonko. They have people to handle the "YC"s and the Yonko on top of that, too! The idea of "counterparts" is really flawed, because each organization has their own structure

Whenever theres too much of something, that something becomes less special, and that seems to be the case, at least for me, when we talk about the Vice-Admirals.
According to OP wikia, it is the marine rank with the highest numbers of members...yet...it is supossed to be the rank right below Admiral

The number of names doesn't mean it's the rank with the highest number of members.

AKA the guys that have to stand up to a Yonkou face, Punch it, and make them feel that Punch.

But...when you look at their (VAs) feats...what do we have?

Almost being turned to stone by a Shichibukai?
Being stopped by the incredible DECALVAN BROTHERS?
Getting One Shoted by WB? (not a unfair comparition when YCommanders have been shown to stand up to Admirals)
Being rekted by Bartolomeo?

Almost! Momonga countered Hancock incredibly well.
That's the anime. I don't remember the Decalvan Brothers stopping a Vice Admiral in the manga. But it wouldn't be too farfetched considering they are the second highest in Whitebeards favor. They are New World Elites and the Vice Admirals are Marine elites. Apparently, you are under the assumption that everything that is not in the spotlight is fodder.
Or maybe it is a totally unfair comparison? By the way, neither Marco nor Jozu lasted long against an admiral. Marco was catched offguard by Vice Admiral Onigumo. You just omitted that.
Maynard was specifically said to be a newbie. Bartolomeo isn't that weak either.

Of course, its not that the whole Vice Admiral class is useless, but outside of Momonga, could you see any of the Vice-Admirals beating any of the current SH on one-to-one combat? Would freaking DALMATIAN be able to do something against Chopper?

Dalamatian would beat Chopper ten out of ten times. The only Straw Hats that can beat Vice Admirals are Luffy, Zoro and Jinbe. Sanji would struggle with most of them as he did with Vergo, something you omitted as well. Franky and Brook could defeat Maynard, probably.

Sometimes I think people read a different manga. The "Vice admirals are trash opinion" is all over reddit too. Does is come from the anime?

And this is why I think that, because Oda likes to extend the story (and we like that he does that) in combination with the constant escalation that is needed into a Shounen, that the way Oda handled the Vice-Admirals is a mistake.
Now, the guys that should replace any of the Admirals should they fall are (as far as the story has shown us) nowhere NEAR that required level of power.

Well, they didn't replace admirals. And now the powerstructure of the marines is intact again.

While the Power Level of admirals is a matter of hot debate in this fandom, I think its safe to say that it is universally agreed that even if they´d lose 100% of the time, that any of the Admirals would put a hell of a fight against a Yonkou.
Could you say the same of ANY Vice-Admiral? AKA THE GUYS WHO ARE THE NEXT IN LINE FOR THE ADMIRAL TITLE?

Where is the need for them? Also, could Perospero hold himself against Big Mom? Probably not?

The worst part of this issue is that we have a rank below that, called Rear-Admiral, that is VASTLY underused.

We are in the New World now.

The main Rear-Admiral we know of is Hina, and while she´d probally be owned by the strongest members of the SH crew, its not like we wouldn´t believe she´d be capable of fighting the lower members of the SHs, specially if many of the current VAs were actually RAs.

First you said Chopper could beat Dalmatian, then you say Hina would be a good fight for the weaker SHs???

Its not that I think that the Vice Admirals SHOULD be equal to the Yonkou Commanders.

I actually think you do from what you have said.

What I do think is that they should´ve recivied better treatment along the story so as to keep being credible threats to our main characters, which, as of now, they aren´t.
Which could´ve been avoided if Oda used the Rear Admiral position more often, since it has that "Admiral" title on it to make it more impressive

Vice Admirals could very well be a threat to our main characters as Vergo was during PH. The story has moved away from simple battle shonen formulas anyways and that was long ago. Obstacles can be different things than fights.
.

PS: I know its been stated that the WG needs the whole marines + Shichibukai to counter ONE Yonkou,and thats fine.

Actually they didn't even needed the 5(!) Shishibukai they had at Marineford and still won a clear victory.

Again, I don´t want them to be YC Level, just that the rank right below Admiral to not be such pushovers.

You can sleep well because they aren't. They are incredibly badass, I don't know how someone could get a different impression.

 

[Kato756]

Nothing suggests Tsuru has strenght worthy of the rank admiral.

We don't know how strong the allied crews are. If we assume the Yonko crews are evenly distributed, they could go anywhere from Bobbin to Perospero.

Vice Admirals are barely used at all what are you talking about?

Wrong. Garp is for all purposes a Vice Admiral for example. "Yonko Commander" is a fan term, not something that exists in the series anyways. The "YCs" at Marineford were no match for the admirals at all. The Marines vastly overpower an individual Yonko. They have people to handle the "YC"s and the Yonko on top of that, too! The idea of "counterparts" is really flawed, because each organization has their own structure

The number of names doesn't mean it's the rank with the highest number of members.

Almost! Momonga countered Hancock incredibly well.
That's the anime. I don't remember the Decalvan Brothers stopping a Vice Admiral in the manga. But it wouldn't be too farfetched considering they are the second highest in Whitebeards favor. They are New World Elites and the Vice Admirals are Marine elites. Apparently, you are under the assumption that everything that is not in the spotlight is fodder.
Or maybe it is a totally unfair comparison? By the way, neither Marco nor Jozu lasted long against an admiral. Marco was catched offguard by Vice Admiral Onigumo. You just omitted that.
Maynard was specifically said to be a newbie. Bartolomeo isn't that weak either.

Dalamatian would beat Chopper ten out of ten times. The only Straw Hats that can beat Vice Admirals are Luffy, Zoro and Jinbe. Sanji would struggle with most of them as he did with Vergo, something you omitted as well. Franky and Brook could defeat Maynard, probably.

Sometimes I think people read a different manga. The "Vice admirals are trash opinion" is all over reddit too. Does is come from the anime?

Well, they didn't replace admirals. And now the powerstructure of the marines is intact again.

Where is the need for them? Also, could Perospero hold himself against Big Mom? Probably not?

We are in the New World now.
First you said Chopper could beat Dalmatian, then you say Hina would be a good fight for the weaker SHs???

I actually think you do from what you have said.

Vice Admirals could very well be a threat to our main characters as Vergo was during PH. The story has moved away from simple battle shonen formulas anyways and that was long ago. Obstacles can be different things than fights.
.
Actually they didn't even needed the 5(!) Shishibukai they had at Marineford and still won a clear victory.
You can sleep well because they aren't. They are incredibly badass, I don't know how someone could get a different impression.

Ok let us crack these nuts, but hey, even if you do disagree, I thank you for such a passionate response. Discussions like this are what keeps me in this forum.

So

1)If DOFLAMINGO fears you, I´d say you clearly are a cut above the rest. This is a man that with all of his organs ruptured by Gamma Knife stilll managed to outlast G4 Luffy, and where it not by Dressrosa citizens help, would´ve killed Luffy. So this man´s fear is a big credential in my opinion. I mean, we don´t see him shitting his pants about Onigumo

2)I won´t say you are wrong, as we have no real further proof, but so far Yonkou Crew > Allied Crews.

3)I say Overuse because of all marine ranks, they are the ones with the biggest number of apperances. Why not use the other ranks? Its not like Smoker was weak when he was a captain

4) I mean counterparts in terms of power.

5) But if it is the one we are shown the highest numbers of, and by a wide margin, it sure feels like there are a LOT of people to a position that, in my opinion, should be more special. Again, these guys are the subs for the Admirals. Can you see any of the current VAs standing up a Yonkou?

6)Pretty sure the decalvan brothers fought against dalmatian in the manga...but if it that was anime only, my bad.
I´d say they both lasted VERY well and only lost when their attention was taken away because of something else. If they weren´t so emotional, they could´ve put a longer fight, I´d wager.
Again, Marco was distressed, but yah know, considering he has a Spider DF, it´d be nice if Onigumo was actually a stealth master...i mean, even if he was distressed, getting past a Yonkou Right Hand man CoO is not a small feat. Good catch, but not a combat one ;p

7)Pretty sure that Zeus Nami, Iron Pirate Franky, Brook, and even Usopp with his CoO are more than a match for any vice admiral.
Vergo is not a vice-admiral, he is a Shichibukai top henchman. And he, not a VA, was trashing another VA (Smoker)

8) Then I guess the Vice President can´t sub for the Actual President

9)This comes from the same point as 8. I am expected to believe these guys hold a position that makes them next in line for the title of "Marine Rank that has to deatl with Yonkous"....

10)EXACTLY! Why not use the Rears in first part and now use more vices. We could´ve been introduced to them in the War and be like: Oh those vice admirals means business, wonder how the meeting between them and the SH in the new world´s gonna be!!

11) I should´ve expanded that more. I mean that because of her Devil Fruit, she may be a weaker physical fighter than Dalmatian, but still pose a threat to the SH because how would many of the SH escape from it? IE you don´t need rank, just a good ability, to be a threat

12) Nah

13) I know, but this is still a battle manga. Cause they sure as hell aint cuddling Kaidou until he decides to have a change of Heart

14) Pretty sure that if it wasnt for Ace stupidity they´d have lost. Whitebeard was 80% dead already when the war started.

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 19, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 19, 2018 ---

@McNuss , I don´t go the OP reddit, but I think I can tell where this notion that the VAs are weak come from.

Its what I call the "StormTrooper/ANBU Problem"
A classic case of Tell and never show.

In all the 3 cases, Starwars/Naruto/OP, we have a elite force that is said to us to be above the fooders of said organization.
And sure, we do believe that in the beggining, but then the author utilizes then more and more as a way to hype someone, overutilizing the Worf Effect...making their badassery way more something that we hear, but rarely something that we see.

Lets look at vice admirals feats and fights, both in manga and anime, by name

John Giant
-Defeated by WB in a single blow
-Appears in the opening fighting on equal grounds with Iron Pirate*

Comil
-Trolled by Ace

Onigumo
-Failed to kill Luffy using his ship during the Buster Call
-Sneak Attack on a distressed Marco

Momonga (AKA BEST VA AND SHOULD´VE BEEN A ADMIRAL)
-Also failed on the Buster Call
-Knife on hand to block Hancook (which for all that I said, I find a cool as hell moment)
-Defeated a Sea King
-Being a VA, which means he has some Haki, was still unable to see past that idiotic disguise of Luffy+Hancook
-Clashed on equal terms with Doma
-On Movie Tie In, clashed with Zoro

Doberman
-Buster Call Fail
-Fought McGuy on equal terms

Strawberry
-Buster Call Fail
-As a RA, lost to Jinbe

Yamakaji
-Buster Call Fail

Lacroix
-Owned by Oars

Ronse
-OHKO by WB

Stainless
-Could not escape from Doffy Control

Mozambia
-Could not escape from Doffy Control

Cancer
-Nothing

Dalmatian
-Equal grounds with the Decalvan Brothers

Bastillie
-Defeats a wounded and weakened Franky
-REKT by Sabo

Smoker
-Boy do I even need to?

Baynard
-Wins against Gambia
-Loses against Bartolomeo

So all in all, its

Victories: 2
No Winner fights: 3
Sneak Attacks: 1
Defeats: 7

Thats not taking into account the 2 guys that could not break out of Doffy control, and not counting the Sea King.
If you do, considering anime filler, thats a 4/10 ratio of W/L
If we count the Sneak as W and the No Winner as L, thats a 5/13 W/L ratio.

Sure, most of these loses are totally justified, I agree with you.
But, if you only shows us they losing, they will appear as just that the fandom.
Losers




*I know OPs are not canon, but they sure as hell can influence the debate in the fandom, just remember that OP of Sanji vs Kizaru

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 19, 2018 ---

Gion and Tokikake say hello.

Well i guess the VA class marines are not really impressive, but there are people like Gion and Tokikake who are strong enough to be considered for Amiral promotion.

Oh yeah, the promotion that was handed to 2 random guys that were not even part of the marines*.
And oh yeah, the 2 characters that we totally knew and were totally not fanmade.
Isn´t it distressing that the only 2 VAs that we know that could have made to Admiral are fan characters????

*This can be better explained later on, but it is still a fact that they choose outsiders instead of their own

 

[McNuss]

1)If DOFLAMINGO fears you, I´d say you clearly are a cut above the rest. This is a man that with all of his organs ruptured by Gamma Knife stilll managed to outlast G4 Luffy, and where it not by Dressrosa citizens help, would´ve killed Luffy. So this man´s fear is a big credential in my opinion. I mean, we don´t see him shitting his pants about Onigumo

One can fear someone because of different reasons than strenght. Tsuru has a power to purge all evil from people and Doflamingo enjoys being evil, also Tsuru is said to be very smart. Doflamingo is very smart, too, but he probably can't stand people that outwit him.

2)I won´t say you are wrong, as we have no real further proof, but so far Yonkou Crew > Allied Crews.

Only Marco, Jozu, Vista, Ace, Atmos and Curiel have any feats in the manga, half of Whitebeards Commanders are basically featless, just like the allied Captains.

3)I say Overuse because of all marine ranks, they are the ones with the biggest number of apperances. Why not use the other ranks? Its not like Smoker was weak when he was a captain

Oda just happens to name all the Vice Admirals, we had 100 Marine Captains at Enies Lobby, but only 3 of them were named. Vice Admirals like Cancer or Dalmatian are barely characters and the story would work fine with us never knowing their names, but it is more fun this way.

4) I mean counterparts in terms of power.

But this is you misconception. Vice Admiral is just a rank. Sweet Commander is just a rank. Calamity is just a rank and so on. The ranks are related to strenght, but only within their individual organization. They don't compare 1:1 to each other. The strongest Vice Admiral (Garp) is supposedly so strong that in his prime he was offered the position of admiral. The weakest Vice Admiral (Maynard)

5) But if it is the one we are shown the highest numbers of, and by a wide margin, it sure feels like there are a LOT of people to a position that, in my opinion, should be more special. Again, these guys are the subs for the Admirals. Can you see any of the current VAs standing up a Yonkou?

Why do they have to stand up against Yonko?

6)Pretty sure the decalvan brothers fought against dalmatian in the manga...but if it that was anime only, my bad.
I´d say they both lasted VERY well and only lost when their attention was taken away because of something else. If they weren´t so emotional, they could´ve put a longer fight, I´d wager.
Again, Marco was distressed, but yah know, considering he has a Spider DF, it´d be nice if Onigumo was actually a stealth master...i mean, even if he was distressed, getting past a Yonkou Right Hand man CoO is not a small feat. Good catch, but not a combat one ;p

That was war. That is combat. Emotions or sneak attacks are no excuse.

7)Pretty sure that Zeus Nami, Iron Pirate Franky, Brook, and even Usopp with his CoO are more than a match for any vice admiral.
Vergo is not a vice-admiral, he is a Shichibukai top henchman. And he, not a VA, was trashing another VA (Smoker)

Vergo is not a Vice Admiral???
Vergo was posing as a normal marine he was promoted under normal criteria and by the way could use full armamanet haki as a recruit while the rest of his pirate crew had not even entered Grand Line.
How do they beat Vice Admirals? That all have CoA?

8) Then I guess the Vice President can´t sub for the Actual President

Vice Admiral is not the same as Vice President. One is a military rank, the "vice" represenst a hierarchical position, the other is an elected office meant to be a substitute.

9)This comes from the same point as 8. I am expected to believe these guys hold a position that makes them next in line for the title of "Marine Rank that has to deatl with Yonkous"....

But the Marines don't even deal with Yonkos normally.

14) Pretty sure that if it wasnt for Ace stupidity they´d have lost. Whitebeard was 80% dead already when the war started.

The WBs wouldn't even have come close to Ace without Luffy....

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 19, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 19, 2018 ---

@McNuss , I don´t go the OP reddit, but I think I can tell where this notion that the VAs are weak come from.

Its what I call the "StormTrooper/ANBU Problem"
A classic case of Tell and never show.

In all the 3 cases, Starwars/Naruto/OP, we have a elite force that is said to us to be above the fooders of said organization.
And sure, we do believe that in the beggining, but then the author utilizes then more and more as a way to hype someone, overutilizing the Worf Effect...making their badassery way more something that we hear, but rarely something that we see.

Lets look at vice admirals feats and fights, both in manga and anime, by name

I don't think Vice Admirals are comparable to stormtroopers or Anbu which both suck for real, but more like Jonin before Jonin became irrelevant. So actually competent and badass.

John Giant
-Defeated by WB in a single blow
-Appears in the opening fighting on equal grounds with Iron Pirate*

Whitebeard would probably do the same with let's say Cracker.
You watch too much of that Toei garbage. The anime is so astoundingly low-quality for the record breaking comic it adapts that it makes me puke everytime I see it.

Comil
-Trolled by Ace

He got his milk, though.

Onigumo
-Failed to kill Luffy using his ship during the Buster Call
-Sneak Attack on a distressed Marco

Also solely responsible for the Ace escort from Impel Down to Marineford.

Momonga (AKA BEST VA AND SHOULD´VE BEEN A ADMIRAL)
-Also failed on the Buster Call
-Knife on hand to block Hancook (which for all that I said, I find a cool as hell moment)
-Defeated a Sea King
-Being a VA, which means he has some Haki, was still unable to see past that idiotic disguise of Luffy+Hancook
-Clashed on equal terms with Doma
-On Movie Tie In, clashed with Zoro

VS Doma is anime only as well.
It's a comic every silly disguise works everytime.

Doberman
-Buster Call Fail
-Fought McGuy on equal terms

Vs McGuy is anime only too.

Strawberry
-Buster Call Fail
-As a RA, lost to Jinbe

Yamakaji
-Buster Call Fail

The Buster Call's target was Enies Lobby, which the burned down to the ground following the protocol. Spandam fucked up, not them.

Lacroix
-Owned by Oars

Ronse
-OHKO by WB

Whitbeard is understandable. What you left out is that Ronse, despite being a Giant, blitzed through the entire pirate's defense right behind Whitebeard, no one did stop him before.

Oars was certainly among the strongest pirates in marineford, too.

Stainless
-Could not escape from Doffy Control

Mozambia
-Could not escape from Doffy Control

Both arguably had their guard down. Btw even Jozu can't escape Doffy's restraints.

Dalmatian
-Equal grounds with the Decalvan Brothers

Anime.

Bastillie
-Defeats a wounded and weakened Franky
-REKT by Sabo

I don't remember Bastille harming Franky in anyway (anime?). Sabo is one of the strongest, a Luffy+3years essentially so it's no shame really.

Smoker
-Boy do I even need to?

Smoker is not weak. Vergo is very strong and a (VA too for that matter), as is Doflamingo. It was implied Smoker was aiming for Law's heart because he hated being indebted to a pirate, if he hadn't spread out so much he would have likely been able to continue longer.

His performance against Law was incredible considering how difficult Law's ability is. Law is just vastly superior, but

Baynard
-Wins against Gambia
-Loses against Bartolomeo

A newbie.

So all in all, its

Victories: 2
No Winner fights: 3
Sneak Attacks: 1
Defeats: 7

Thats not taking into account the 2 guys that could not break out of Doffy control, and not counting the Sea King.
If you do, considering anime filler, thats a 4/10 ratio of W/L
If we count the Sneak as W and the No Winner as L, thats a 5/13 W/L ratio.

Sure, most of these loses are totally justified, I agree with you.
But, if you only shows us they losing, they will appear as just that the fandom.
Losers

The W/L ratio for any kind of pirates is even worse, but really is it about a W/L ratio how characters are percieved now? Isn't it the fact that all Vice Admirals boast for selfconfidence and that is visible in the artwork and they all wear suits and know all kinds of secret techniques (Haki, Rokushiki) that makes them totally badass?

*I know OPs are not canon, but they sure as hell can influence the debate in the fandom, just remember that OP of Sanji vs Kizaru

Yeah and that's the problem. Too much anime.

 

[Kato756]

One can fear someone because of different reasons than strenght. Tsuru has a power to purge all evil from people and Doflamingo enjoys being evil, also Tsuru is said to be very smart. Doflamingo is very smart, too, but he probably can't stand people that outwit him.

Only Marco, Jozu, Vista, Ace, Atmos and Curiel have any feats in the manga, half of Whitebeards Commanders are basically featless, just like the allied Captains.

Oda just happens to name all the Vice Admirals, we had 100 Marine Captains at Enies Lobby, but only 3 of them were named. Vice Admirals like Cancer or Dalmatian are barely characters and the story would work fine with us never knowing their names, but it is more fun this way.

But this is you misconception. Vice Admiral is just a rank. Sweet Commander is just a rank. Calamity is just a rank and so on. The ranks are related to strenght, but only within their individual organization. They don't compare 1:1 to each other. The strongest Vice Admiral (Garp) is supposedly so strong that in his prime he was offered the position of admiral. The weakest Vice Admiral (Maynard)

Why do they have to stand up against Yonko?

That was war. That is combat. Emotions or sneak attacks are no excuse.

Vergo is not a Vice Admiral???
Vergo was posing as a normal marine he was promoted under normal criteria and by the way could use full armamanet haki as a recruit while the rest of his pirate crew had not even entered Grand Line.
How do they beat Vice Admirals? That all have CoA?
Vice Admiral is not the same as Vice President. One is a military rank, the "vice" represenst a hierarchical position, the other is an elected office meant to be a substitute.

But the Marines don't even deal with Yonkos normally.

The WBs wouldn't even have come close to Ace without Luffy....

--- Double Post Merged, Oct 19, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 19, 2018 ---

@McNuss , I don´t go the OP reddit, but I think I can tell where this notion that the VAs are weak come from.

I don't think Vice Admirals are comparable to stormtroopers or Anbu which both suck for real, but more like Jonin before Jonin became irrelevant. So actually competent and badass.

Whitebeard would probably do the same with let's say Cracker.
You watch too much of that Toei garbage. The anime is so astoundingly low-quality for the record breaking comic it adapts that it makes me puke everytime I see it.

He got his milk, though.

Also solely responsible for the Ace escort from Impel Down to Marineford.

VS Doma is anime only as well.
It's a comic every silly disguise works everytime.

Vs McGuy is anime only too.

The Buster Call's target was Enies Lobby, which the burned down to the ground following the protocol. Spandam fucked up, not them.

Whitbeard is understandable. What you left out is that Ronse, despite being a Giant, blitzed through the entire pirate's defense right behind Whitebeard, no one did stop him before.

Oars was certainly among the strongest pirates in marineford, too.

Both arguably had their guard down. Btw even Jozu can't escape Doffy's restraints.

Anime.

I don't remember Bastille harming Franky in anyway (anime?). Sabo is one of the strongest, a Luffy+3years essentially so it's no shame really.

Smoker is not weak. Vergo is very strong and a (VA too for that matter), as is Doflamingo. It was implied Smoker was aiming for Law's heart because he hated being indebted to a pirate, if he hadn't spread out so much he would have likely been able to continue longer.

His performance against Law was incredible considering how difficult Law's ability is. Law is just vastly superior, but

A newbie.

The W/L ratio for any kind of pirates is even worse, but really is it about a W/L ratio how characters are percieved now? Isn't it the fact that all Vice Admirals boast for selfconfidence and that is visible in the artwork and they all wear suits and know all kinds of secret techniques (Haki, Rokushiki) that makes them totally badass?

Yeah and that's the problem. Too much anime.

Brah, what I meant by that list is
Wheter you like it or not

That is the "display" of abilities that the VAs have given us so far.
Heck, even if you want to take out the anime parts, that makes it even worse, because most of the "ties" occur there.
I am not saying "ANIME IS CANON, ALSO EVEN IN MANGA VA SUCK"

I am saying

"Hey Oda told us these guys are badasses but we have seen double the loss ratio and a bunch of incompetence on their part so far"

I mean ffs both BUSTA CALLS failed, even in the past

 

[McNuss]

Brah, what I meant by that list is
Wheter you like it or not

That is the "display" of abilities that the VAs have given us so far.
Heck, even if you want to take out the anime parts, that makes it even worse, because most of the "ties" occur there.
I am not saying "ANIME IS CANON, ALSO EVEN IN MANGA VA SUCK"

I am saying

"Hey Oda told us these guys are badasses but we have seen double the loss ratio and a bunch of incompetence on their part so far"

I mean ffs both BUSTA CALLS failed, even in the past

The Buster Calls didn't fail. Buster Call means blowing up the island it was targeted at. That Robin escaped Ohara and that the Straw Hats escaped Enies Lobby was essentially the CP9s fault. Marines are soldiers. They do what they were ordered to do and they performed the Buster Call as it was ordered.

I don't see any instance of incompetence on their part. In fact all these high ranked marines give off an aura of competency since they are boasting with confidence.

The problem is, that you seem to have only watched the majority of One Piece as anime, or are just more familiar with the anime and as such you are biased. The anime drastically alters even slight details such as facial expressions in certain situations, they alter the dialogue, and often they create a different feeling than how most people would interpret the manga panels. Not to mention that the animator's conception of women is cringeworthy. The anime has no intention of adapting the manga in a good quality, it's only intention is to make money with the license as an animated show has a much wider target audience than a manga comic. Sad thing is most people, especially in the non-asian world, are more familiar with the Anime and only recently start to explore the Manga as the Animes pace gets even slower and slower.

I just don't find any instance in the manga where a Vice Admiral performs unexpectedly bad aside from the Maynard incident. Most of them are third-row or background characters so it's natural that they don't have many feats. They all have Haki though and it's implied Rokushiki is part of their training as well (since the only non-VA marines that use Rokushiki are exclusively the subordinates of Vice Admirals).

 

[kcd]

A few FYI before you read this
1)This is not a rant, just a construtive critiscim on the structure of OP´s world and Oda´s writing
2)Tsuru and Garp are not counted as Vice-Admirals in my eyes, because they are from a older generation and pretty much did not want to advance.
3)This takes into account what we have seen in the story so far. Any number of stuff could happen in the future and rend this thread null
4) While WB´s main crew streght is debatable, I went into this with the idea that any of the Pirates that suported Whitebeard but were not part of his crew were BELOW Yonkou Commander-level

Why Oda´s overuse of Vice-Admirals has killed any tension when they are in scene, the essay:


Oda´s not perfect. Nor i need him to be.
He makes one of the greatest series ever.

He also has a reputation of being great at foreshadowing and setting up, which is indeed true.
However, we also have proof that he does not plan everything: The idea that OP would last only 5 years, the early designs of the Shichibukai and Yonkou, etc.

And in a story about pirates, its easy to assume that the marines would play a huge role as antagonist forces.
Their main fighters, the Admirals, are a force to be reckoned with and we are still unsure, even after everything that he has shown so far,that Luffy could beat one of them 1v1.
The same can be said about the Yonkous, and while not as close as them, their commanders sure could put a fight against Luffy.
So, do we have a counterpart of the YC on the Marines?
Well.
Nope

Whenever theres too much of something, that something becomes less special, and that seems to be the case, at least for me, when we talk about the Vice-Admirals.
According to OP wikia, it is the marine rank with the highest numbers of members...yet...it is supossed to be the rank right below Admiral

AKA the guys that have to stand up to a Yonkou face, Punch it, and make them feel that Punch.

But...when you look at their (VAs) feats...what do we have?

Almost being turned to stone by a Shichibukai?
Being stopped by the incredible DECALVAN BROTHERS?
Getting One Shoted by WB? (not a unfair comparition when YCommanders have been shown to stand up to Admirals)
Being rekted by Bartolomeo?

Of course, its not that the whole Vice Admiral class is useless, but outside of Momonga, could you see any of the Vice-Admirals beating any of the current SH on one-to-one combat? Would freaking DALMATIAN be able to do something against Chopper?

And this is why I think that, because Oda likes to extend the story (and we like that he does that) in combination with the constant escalation that is needed into a Shounen, that the way Oda handled the Vice-Admirals is a mistake.
Now, the guys that should replace any of the Admirals should they fall are (as far as the story has shown us) nowhere NEAR that required level of power.

While the Power Level of admirals is a matter of hot debate in this fandom, I think its safe to say that it is universally agreed that even if they´d lose 100% of the time, that any of the Admirals would put a hell of a fight against a Yonkou.
Could you say the same of ANY Vice-Admiral? AKA THE GUYS WHO ARE THE NEXT IN LINE FOR THE ADMIRAL TITLE?

The worst part of this issue is that we have a rank below that, called Rear-Admiral, that is VASTLY underused.
The main Rear-Admiral we know of is Hina, and while she´d probally be owned by the strongest members of the SH crew, its not like we wouldn´t believe she´d be capable of fighting the lower members of the SHs, specially if many of the current VAs were actually RAs.

To end this

Its not that I think that the Vice Admirals SHOULD be equal to the Yonkou Commanders.
What I do think is that they should´ve recivied better treatment along the story so as to keep being credible threats to our main characters, which, as of now, they aren´t.
Which could´ve been avoided if Oda used the Rear Admiral position more often, since it has that "Admiral" title on it to make it more impressive.

PS: I know its been stated that the WG needs the whole marines + Shichibukai to counter ONE Yonkou,and thats fine.
Again, I don´t want them to be YC Level, just that the rank right below Admiral to not be such pushovers.

You're absolutely right. Other than Garp (and maybe one or two more), vice admirals are almost trash (fodder) when compared to elites... And to think they're "the next big thing" after Admirals, in terms of power structure, is just ... Laughable, to say the least.

Recently, we were told that the only people capable of stopping two Yonkos from meeting, are the Admirals and the Warlords.

For the next in line, after the admirals, to not be seen as one of those that could be relevant here, means they are way below the admirals in terms of power scaling... And I think that validates the point you were making in your first post (at least the point I think you were making).

Though, same can be said for the yonko set up as well.

Admirals are vastly superior to vice admirals.
Yonkos are also vastly superior to their right hand men, or YC.

But then, yonko commanders are still monsters in their own right, but vice admirals? Trash (when compared to those just below Yonkos).
Except Garp ofcourse, and one or two more .

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Garp, Momousagi, and Chaton are admiral level or close. Vergo was pretty strong too, and so was Momonga and Dalmacian. Smoker too. Maynard was pretty darn disappointing though.

 

[Fox666]

The series has consistently displayed the vice-admirals as below the level of a "super rookie". The vice-admirals in Ennies Lobby praised Rob Lucci, Luffy defeated a giant in Marineford who was probably a vice-admiral, and Bartolomeo easily took down Maynard.

Garp and Vergo are exceptions because they are not real vice-admirals. Garp refused to be promoted, and Vergo is an imposter. And Smoker was already stronger than the vice-admirals when he was commodore.

 

[McNuss]

The series has consistently displayed the vice-admirals as below the level of a "super rookie". The vice-admirals in Ennies Lobby praised Rob Lucci, Luffy defeated a giant in Marineford who was probably a vice-admiral, and Bartolomeo easily took down Maynard.

Garp and Vergo are exceptions because they are not real vice-admirals. Garp refused to be promoted, and Vergo is an imposter. And Commodore was already stronger than the vice-admirals when he was commodore.

The giant was not a Vice-Admiral, his rank is still unconfirmed and everyone ranked captain or higher wears a coat. I doubt every giant in the marines is a VA when the requirement is Haki. What two Vice Admirals (Momonga, Dalmatian) in that war did, is they absolutely destroyed Luffy.

Them praising Rob Lucci is expectable, Rob Lucci is a child prodigy that never failed a mission before. No one thinks Rayleigh or Shanks are below Luffy because they praise him.

Garp might be an exception because he refused a promotion (that was 20 years in the past, though), but Vergo is a normal Vice Admiral. He wasn't posing as a Vice Admiral, he was posing as a Marine and got promoted within 15 years because he fulfilled the very same criteria that every other VA fulfilled. How could one even get the idea that Vergo doesn't count?

And Smoker definitely was not stronger than them when he was still Commodore. All Vice Admirals have Haki.

 

[Fox666]

There isn't necessarily a correlation between Haki and strength. The Skypieans and Kuja could use Haki, including children who couldn't fight.

I find Smoker far more impressive in Marineford. In two seconds he immobilized Luffy when he was still in good shape. Two vice-admirals ganged up against Luffy when he could barely walk... and it was Kizaru who put Luffy down.

 

[kkck]

I'd argue the issue is not that VAs straight up suck, rather the issue is that oda has simply not put in the time to develop them properly in the manga. However they are by all intents and purposes a substantially powerful force, specially the VA that were featured at marineford. That said, it also seems to be the case that marine VAs have a fairly wide range of power between them. Meaning that there is a substantial difference in power between the weakest VAs and the strongest ones.

As for the buster call bit, my point would be that at the time either oda wasn't sure either of exactly how powerful VAs were supposed to be or in context the buster call was simply tactically a wrong choice at the time. During the war oda repeatedly made the point that the Vas were in fact strong. Not yonko strong but at least people capable of holding their ground against yonko commanders. Of course, this depends on which commanders and which vice admirals you are talking about. VAs are strong BUT they are also numerous and based on performance we know there likely are large power gaps between them. Still, based on what we have seen its not a stretch that the weakest VA would be almost comically stronger than part one lucci. In context I would argue a single VA can easily be vastly more devastating than a buster call. Hence it being the wrong tactic at ennies lobby. Had a single VA been deployed during ennies lobby then the strawhats would have faced nothing short of being easily and instantly foderized. Anything less than that and the entire war arc simply doesn't make sense. It'd be absurd if the marines managed to fight the war against a yonko and his commanders with only 3 admirals, the plot requires VAs to be at least as powerful as suggested during the great war arc.

 

[Fox666]

As for the buster call bit, my point would be that at the time either oda wasn't sure either of exactly how powerful VAs were supposed to be or in context the buster call was simply tactically a wrong choice at the time. During the war oda repeatedly made the point that the Vas were in fact strong. Not yonko strong but at least people capable of holding their ground against yonko commanders.

I disagree about the author being unsure about how strong the Vice-Admirals are. The Marineford arc made it official that some of the Marines that Doflamingo toyed with in Mary Geoise were Vice-Admirals. So it's unlikely they could hold their own against the commanders... and it's not like the Vice-Admirals do anything during the war that proves otherwise.

Anything less than that and the entire war arc simply doesn't make sense. It'd be absurd if the marines managed to fight the war against a yonko and his commanders with only 3 admirals, the plot requires VAs to be at least as powerful as suggested during the great war arc.

Truth be told, the big-shots monopolized the war. The Admirals were the only ones who could slow down Whitebeard offensives, and that the entire Whitebeard crew couldn't stop Akainu.

 

[McNuss]

I disagree about the author being unsure about how strong the Vice-Admirals are. The Marineford arc made it official that some of the Marines that Doflamingo toyed with in Mary Geoise were Vice-Admirals. So it's unlikely they could hold their own against the commanders... and it's not like the Vice-Admirals do anything during the war that proves otherwise.

Doflamingo also toyed with Atmos and effortlessly stopped Jozu.

Truth be told, the big-shots monopolized the war. The Admirals were the only ones who could slow down offensives, and that the entire Whitebeard crew couldn't stop Akainu.

Truth is, only Luffy and Mr. 3 made it through to the scaffold. None of the Whitebeard Pirates did. In fact, they were in a pretty dire position after entering the plaza. Jozu was defeated by Kuzan, and Marco was put out of the battle via seastone cuffs, placed on him by Vice Admiral Onigumo.

You are correct about the big shots monopolizing the war, but that is mostly a design decision. We didn't see much of Fossa, Izo and the other Whitebeard commanders, and neither did we see much of the Vice Admirals. And it is true that many of them had to be used for the "Worf Effect". All of this was inevitable by plot design. The readers expectation obviously was that the war would showcase Whitebeard and the Admirals, it was the premiere for Akainu in the present time. It would have greatly slowed down the pace if Oda showed elaborate battles between let's say Fossa and Stainless. To showcase just how strong Whitebeard is, nothing short of a vice admiral rank marine was possible to showcase. Whitebeard smashing Shuu and Berry Good instead of John Giant and Ronse would have looked far less impressive. Same is true for Oars Jr. who was indeed a key player of the arc, so again him defeating a lower ranked marine instead would have been much less impressive and also be pretty inconsistent considering how strong his zombie ancestor was.

Vice Admirals probably get a bad standing in the community because of that. It's just that we are at a point in the story were we deal with the top of the New World. The Marines have a linear ranking system were the highest normaly achievable rank is Vice Admiral. The Admiral rank is limited to three people. So all Marines that will get "worfed" will be Vice Admirals, inevitably, by the nature of the plot. Lesser ranked Marines that appear simply can't be used anymore

 

[Kato756]

Doflamingo also toyed with Atmos and effortlessly stopped Jozu.


Truth is, only Luffy and Mr. 3 made it through to the scaffold. None of the Whitebeard Pirates did. In fact, they were in a pretty dire position after entering the plaza. Jozu was defeated by Kuzan, and Marco was put out of the battle via seastone cuffs, placed on him by Vice Admiral Onigumo.

You are correct about the big shots monopolizing the war, but that is mostly a design decision. We didn't see much of Fossa, Izo and the other Whitebeard commanders, and neither did we see much of the Vice Admirals. And it is true that many of them had to be used for the "Worf Effect". All of this was inevitable by plot design. The readers expectation obviously was that the war would showcase Whitebeard and the Admirals, it was the premiere for Akainu in the present time. It would have greatly slowed down the pace if Oda showed elaborate battles between let's say Fossa and Stainless. To showcase just how strong Whitebeard is, nothing short of a vice admiral rank marine was possible to showcase. Whitebeard smashing Shuu and Berry Good instead of John Giant and Ronse would have looked far less impressive. Same is true for Oars Jr. who was indeed a key player of the arc, so again him defeating a lower ranked marine instead would have been much less impressive and also be pretty inconsistent considering how strong his zombie ancestor was.

Vice Admirals probably get a bad standing in the community because of that. It's just that we are at a point in the story were we deal with the top of the New World. The Marines have a linear ranking system were the highest normaly achievable rank is Vice Admiral. The Admiral rank is limited to three people. So all Marines that will get "worfed" will be Vice Admirals, inevitably, by the nature of the plot. Lesser ranked Marines that appear simply can't be used anymore

The thing is, I don´t think the "Worf Effect" of the VAs in Marineford was "inevitable by design", if Oda had followed what I told you people here.

Use more Rear Admirals, Make VA a more exclusive position (I´d say 6, having 2 reserves for each admiral post), and then have the Rear Admirals (which would still be credible if weaker threats) be worfed left and right, while using the supossed 6 VAs to showcase the battle prowess of the more important Yonkou Commanders.

If Oda had not stuffed the VA class with numbers while letting the others rot, this wouldn´t have been inevitable.

Think of it this way. If all of those weaker VAs we have seen and talked about here were Rear-Admirals, would the story structure change? I think not.
But the VA reputation would be saved, and I´d say makes even more sense.

Someone like a "Rear Admiral" Dalmatian being able to fight the Decalvan Brothers (i know, anime filller, just a example) to a standtill while "Vice Admiral number 1" Momonga clashes with Vista and "Sneaky Sneakey Spiderman Vice Admiral 4" Onimugo catches WHITEBEARDS RIGHT HAND MAN by surprise, wouldn´t we have come out of this war beliving so much more in the VAs power?

If Capman was a Rear Admiral (in this universe where the weaker VAs were RAs) woulnd´t we still believe in Barto´s power?


Also, assuming we had a top 6, which would your picks be?

 

[Sachsenhesse]

I cant even name 6...

Garp (still ongoing?)
Smoker
Onigumo
Momonga
Doberman
Tsuru (still there?)