Also, I guess I still have not said this enough:
World of Ice DOES NOT effect Sanada due to SHADOW. WoI is "insight based." Insight does not work on Sanada anymore, hence why Saiki (which is way better than Atobe's insight) did not work.
I agree with you about auras boosting stats.
However, Shadow > World of Ice? I don't think so from your argument.
I think that you take the word "insight" way too literally. So far in the series there have been 3 "insights". Momo's Calm Insight, SKnK's Brilliant Insight and Atobe's Insight (sight as in eyesight). Shadow > any form of Brilliant Insight (data tennis). Not Shadow > WoI because it is "insight based".
What do SKnK and World of Ice have in common? SKnK is super data tennis and World of Ice is extreme vision. However, I will agree Shadow > any data tennis.
There's a very classic cliche in sports manga about how since the eye cannot see a complete arc in front of you there's some spot that'd appear invisible to your eyes. If you play with an eyepatch you'd have even more blind spots, and it wouldn't even be very hard to figure out where the other guy can't see at all with some experience
World of Ice is an extreme form of such things. It's the result of putting bogus science together to deduce a blind spot as a intrinsic property of the physical world. Hiding your emotion would do nothing against it. Put it this way, if Sanada starts playing with an eyepatch like he currently does, then there's a rather wide arc he cannot because he has only one eye. World of Ice will reveal wherever he can't see as icicles since you obviously can't return shots you cannot even see at all. You can hide your emotions and whatever but it doesn't change the fact that your blind spot is still exactly the same as what it was before.
Atobe Kingdom is even more extreme since now he can see your joints and from there he can deduce there's certain angle you cannot possibly swing your racket to and thus hitting to that spot guaranteeds point. Again hiding your thoughts does nothing against it. Atobe can still see your joints through his vision and even if he has no idea what you're thinking, it doesn't change the fact that since your joint can only bend a certain way, you still wouldn't be able to reach the same blind spots.
As of right now Atobe Kingdom is quite possibly the strongest overall offensive move, with no apparent energy costs to activate and cannot be stopped except for dislocating your joints, which obviously only works once. That said it's a move that relies on supernatural vision (Atobe can literally see the world in x-ray) and it'd be reasonable to say a supernatural black aura prevents the x-rays from working.
Momoshiro and Fuji do not have the same insight. Fuji just reads wind.
Momoshiro read the sun's movement and other things.
Atobe's Insight has to be different.
Chitose wasn't shown to be able to return shots that blasted past him.
Atobe used his Insight to return Mach Serve. Unless you want to tell me Chitose and Momoshiro can handle Mach Serve like Atobe did. Whichi would be nonsense.
Atobe's prediction mechanism is based on physically observeable things. It's because he can literally see someone's muscles/joint moving he can be 100% sure where the swing is going to end up as. You can't fake muscle/joint movements (at least not yet) and hiding your thoughts/emotions wouldn't do any good against Atobe.
would kintaro be able to return mach serve? he's shorter and he has the ability to go wild random mode as long as he can see the ball.
This is a manga. Do you understand what this means? Atobe is not Echizen, so he will never be the best. That means Atobe can be defeated. That means WoI and AK can be returned, and wow, they both have been returned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantron
...and how are they different again? I said they are the same because BOTH of them read the "environment" as opposed to the "opponent." Momo has read the wind as well (Ch 274 p.03/p.09/p.15). I'm sure you have a greater education than an 8 year old, so you probably know both the sun and the wind have a part in our environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airgrimes
And Atobe has? lol Let's be real here, the only people who have EVER returned shots that went beyond them are Sanada using Rai, and Echizen using Rai. That's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airgimes
Atobe using his insight to return Mach is EXACTLY my point. Everyone's definition of Atobe's insight is merely offensive attacks to peoples blind spots. My point is that Atobe's insight is the ability to read his opponent, which also means he can use it DEFENSIVELY, which changes everyone's definitions of insight (except mine). I do not think Chitose can return Mach serve but only because of his tier level. If Chitose had the ability level of Atobe, then yes I believe he can handle it. Also, I don't know why you brought Momoshiro into this when I specifically said he doesn't read his opponent, but the environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airgrimes
Fayte, there's nothing to say that In stops KnS. Rai stops KnS. Stop reaching here. I know you love Sanada, but your fanboyism is getting a bit over the top.
BY MASKING THE USER'S WEAKNESSES." Everyone completely ignores that whole first part of the technique, just so they can read the behavior patterns thing and proceed to kiss Atobe's ass. Not me. I stick with the facts.
The only case of AK being returned involved someone dislocating his joints. That is only going to work once.
When Atobe used AK he says that Irie uses speed, flexibility, angle of view, and reflex to hide his blind spots. Not that none of thse has anything to do with what Irie is thinking. Atobe has never been someone who tried to figure out what the other guy is thinking anyway. Once Atobe use AK, he says he'll just have to attack blind spots as a function of bone structure or joint location. That is, you can't use reflex or speed on your bones because they're rigid, so if he sees that your joint is pointed this way and can't hit spot X, it has to work because to hit the ball would literally involve dislocating your bones.
If you take WoI versus Zan, we see that Sanada has only one blind spot. Let's say you start with Sanada's base stats so you only have one icicle to deal with, let's look at how these described tactics can deal with it.
Speed - If you look at someone like Ryoma who starts with a ton of icicles, obviously some of those spots are where he can't reach on time. But if you're faster, there's going to be less blind spots as a function of your speed.
Flexibilty - People who do yoga can bend further than people who do not. Maybe the icicle points toward a spot that'd be difficult for a normal person to reach but not someone who is extremely flexible.
Angle of view - Perhaps it's a blind spot simply because you were looking at the wrong way.
Reflex - Take a page out of Fuji's book and hit the ball without seeing it.
Note that all these ways to deal with WoI has nothing to do with mind games. They're physical action your oppoent can do that basically breaks the icicles. We know Irie is capable of all these since he has no icicles.
But AK attacks stuff that can't just become more flexible (joints & bones). He's clearly hitting the ball to a spot where the only way to hit it requires dislocating your joints, so reflex won't do you any good here.
Regarding the whole KnS vs In business, apparently the line Fayte quoted is a mistranslation.
I hope this clears things up a bit.Quote:
Sai: KnS freezes an instance in time to see where your blind spots are
Sai: In makes it so Sanada sends out several attack patterns at once so you can't read what he will do next
Sai: KnS doesn't rely on predicting Sanada's next movements
Sai: it makes it so Sanada can't even react to the ball
Sai: he can't perceive it
Kaoz: Fayte cited the first statement Yukimura made when describing In "It masks his weaknesses"
Sai: no, I don't believe that's what the words say
Kaoz: I checked the translated page, it does say that there
Kaoz: "By masking the user's weakness and displaying several behaviour patterns, [...]"
Sai: I have the book in front of me
Sai: "This is another one of his sealed ultimate techniques...[IN]......
Sai: Without a moment's hesitation, various movement patterns are sent out. It's similar to why [Saiki] can't read the opponent when used in Doubles.
Kaoz: that's what Yukimura says or..?
Sai: That's what Yuki says