June 06, 2007 06:58 AM
中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
Alkador’s Answerable Assimilations
I thought I’d make a thread with queries about general expressions and grammar points in the Japanese language that I have not yet grasped. For some reason, I have lots of gaps in my Japanese learning and I’d assume there are some things I should know that I don’t and vice versa. So here we go:
1) NTTドコモ が腕時計型PHSを開発したと発表。4月以降からwebサイトにて先ず5,000台を販売する、とのこと。
I’ve included the first sentence to give you an understanding of the next sentence. This expression confuses me at various points. にて and the sentence ending, とのこと in particular. My best translation of the second sentence is “From April onwards, the website has sold the first 5,000 models.”
Does this just mean ‘by’? I’ve noticed that it can be used as a sentence connector too.
This grammar point is used a bit in papers and manga as well, but I’m not quite sure of its function. I had a feeling it means ‘both’, but sometimes I’m not so sure.
これは、年齢層による利用目的の違いとも推測される。(Hope this sentence makes sense without a proper topic marker.)
This confuses me and I have never learnt it. I’m quite sure that it is the humble form of 人, but does it carry on the same meaning in manga?
I think I know what this means. Is it just a way of something ‘without ~’. “Without doing”, “without thinking”. Potential form confuses me with these words though.
Is this a formal way of saying そうです。Or am I thinking of としている? (Or do they both mean the same thing?) If so, then what’s とされる?
Sounds strange, but reminds me of に＋なる. Does anyone know this expression?
I know this is usually associated with a noun (with に), meaning “concerning” or “about”, sort of like は, but with a more direct emphasis.
Reminds me of 付く for some reason. Care to help?
I’ve heard and read this expression before. What does it mean though…?
To end it here, does anyone know of any websites where you can look up grammar points of sorts? I’m quite confident with particles and more basic grammar points (minus the gaps), and grammar books (in Melbourne) I’ve found so far are more high school level based for my taste.
June 06, 2007 09:44 PM
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Re: Alkador’s Answerable Assimilations
My Japanese isn't great. でもやって見ます。
1) ni te = de. It's one of those "just gotta know it from formal writing" things.
My understanding of "to no koto" has to do with the previous sentence. We know that there was an announcement about this new watch. The next sentence is more detail. "to" is the quoting particle, and no koto should be familiar - it's telling us the announcement was about ... " ".
So to add to what you've wrote, "The announcement included, from april onwards..."etc.
But that's clumsy and we'd just drop that in english anyway.
2) ni yoru = by means of. I commonly translate it "due to" but context can help you find more fluent english translations. The function is the always the same.
3) it's more than both. It's more like each and every, implying every part is included. Both works when there's only two parts to something.
your sentence is--
[Depending on] the age of the user, it's possible to guess its [each and every] different use.
here i used depending on for ni yoru, but "due to" works here as well, it's just not stylish.
4) need an example, there's other meanings to mono...
5) my understanding is that nu is older japanese, simply equivalent to -nai. Plug and chug and all will make sense.
6) This is really general. Need a specific example. It can take a number of meanings. I think the most common is volitional + to suru = try to do. IE 開けようとする - let's try to open it?
Another one that comes to mind is to assume/think of something as...
ex. 本物としたら..."as if it were real"
7) to naru = to become. 俺は海賊王となる！ = I will become the pirate king!
I guess it's got that nuance of aspiring to become, not that something really will or not.
8) tsuite, if i am correct, does indeed come from tsuku. The direct meaning is "to be attached", but in the te form it takes a more general meaning that is often translated "concerning", as you said. It implies the following information is attached, or directly related to the subject. But...I don't really know what your question is. Does that answer it?
9) "In such a manner"/"like that"
Don't know many links. Have you tried searching del.icio.us or similar link storage sites? You know what i'm talking about? those sites store and actually cross reference many people's links by tags, with the most popular showing up first.
June 06, 2007 10:18 PM
Last Boss ♪～(￣。￣)
有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity
Re: Alkador’s Answerable Assimilations
is a nice grammar site~
You could buy a couple of books as well...
A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar
A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar
I'm friends with that's site's owner, so if you say Taylor sent you and you are a student and what not he can give you free shipping or a deal/discount or something^^;
also another thing to try is searching this site put quotes around the Japanese you want to find and search and you can see how other people translated the same Japanese and it might inspire you a bit
June 07, 2007 02:54 PM
上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member
Re: Alkador’s Answerable Assimilations
While I write this my kitten, that I just got yesterday is chasing and attacking the mouse cursor as it goes around the computer screen... wonder how long this'll last...
A few more comments on some of the specific questions posed.
により and によって pretty much serve the same functions, with により perhaps being somewhat more formal. Not going to give you an exhaustive list of usage, since I don't have the time... but an example of により...
"It is said that the sea level will rise due to global warming"
And then によって, while it can also be used for "due to" sentences, is also very commonly used for "depending on" sentences...
"The values that people hold vary greatly depending on their country."
(Note: this specific usage of によって also often appears with a は after it in many sentences)
"This can potentially be supposed to be a difference due to the intended usage of [different] age groups"
The による here is primarily a "due to" usage, but its starting to bleed into the "depending on" usage (useful for seeing why the "depending on" usage exists). The とも here is a も attached to the と that the verb 推測する otherwise calls for. The attachment of the も here is basically an "also" (although I chose to render it above as "potentially").
Yes, "person"/"people". Typically it's not particularly "humble", but instead somewhat literary or more formal in nuance. It's also generally only used as the base noun of a relative clause, meaning there's almost always something modifying it.
The ぬ that you're seeing is indeed an older equivalent of the negative verb ending of ない. In fact, ない, in the East, derived from ぬ. In the west ぬ became ん, which is still commonly used in the Kansai region, along side all the へん negation (not to mention the ない negation reverse imported back from the East). You'll see ぬ used in a number of idioms and when people wish to add a specific air to their speech or writing.
A specific example would be nice, but here are a few uses of とする (two basically already said above).
You have the "attempt" とする (that I think you're thinking of) used after the volitional form of verbs in sentences like
"Attempt to run from the police"
Then there's a hypothesizing とする in sentences like...
"If that is the case, this is very serious indeed."
"Let's assume [for a moment] that what you are saying is true. If so, then why didn't you contact the police"
Then there's a とする that represents thought or decision. I happened to use one in number (2) above (とされている, showing that what came before it is the general consensus).
The ついてねー in your example sentence is indeed just a simple conjugation of the verb つく.
について and につき however, while they derive from the verb つく, have more specific grammatical function and usage (both somewhat different, BTW). The first one is generally an "in relation to" usage, the second being serving a "per", expressing a reason for something, or occasionally also an "in relation to" usage.
Lastly, while I'm note sure how competent in Japanese you are, while specific grammar books and websites can certainly help, do underestimate the usfulness of regular reference material such as dictionaries (if you're serious about learning Japanese to a significant degree of competence you'll want to become able to use regular jpn-jpn dictionaries ASAP). Also 英辞郎 (online at www.alc.co.jp) is a great corpus of translations that can also be potentially used if you're suck on a grammar point.
Last edited by Nihongaeri; June 07, 2007 at 06:12 PM.