Have any of you also noticed the level of power, or rather uniqueness/speciality dropping from each newer generation?
It seems that Teresa's generation held the apex of Claymore power, whereas Clare's generation was a bit lacking in power, and the newer generation was certainly inferior.
Even the Organization admits to "being short-handed in warriors and power" but haven't they said that multiple times ever since the Luciela incident?
I can recall them saying this when Rubel talks to Rafaella, during the Pieta invasion, and especially a shortage 24/7 during Clarice's generation.
Generally the 10-47s don't really change much from generation to generation, with the exception of possibly the Male generation.
So let's look at the top 3-10s.
From Teresa's generation, we have
-Rank 2/3 Irene->Flashsword Irene
She's considered to be one of the most powerful and experienced Claymores within the whole series.
Irene was able to decapitate Yoma easily, along with Ranks 3 and 4 without releasing a hint of Youma energy, as well as faring okay against Priscilla.
Comparing this to rank 3 Galatea, who is mostly noted for her Yoki tactics, it's quite some difference.
If Irene were put against Dauf, she would immediately run away instead of ego-shining and getting trapped into a fight.
Similarly, Irene had much more power in offensive battle, although she was an offensive Claymore unlike the defensive Galatea.
If we look at the next number 3 of the newer generation, Audrey also seems to have struggled against some average/perhaps higher-tier awakened beings.
Judging from the likes of Irene, these should have posed no problem for the Quicksword.
Audrey is even worse than Galatea, apparently.
Looking at Rank number 3/4 and 4/5; we have Stormwind Noel and Muscular Sophia.
Both are also noted to be able to take care of entire villages of Yoma without releasing any Yoma.
Noel is noted for his extreme speed, and Sophia noted for her extreme strength.
Yet we have Rippling Ophelia and incorrectly-ranked Rafaella.
(Rafaella should be further ranked up.)
Seems like Ophelia is really lacking in special qualities like Noel and Sophia.
During the fight with Pris, Noel actually manages to salvage an arm before getting completely desolated.
With the newer generation, incorrectly-ranked Miata, and Rachel.
Rachel sucks. Miata is the only exception who can go against the likes or Noel or Sophia, but then again, she is capable of number 1 calibur.
Then we have Renee as the next candidate if we exclude Miata.
Renee may be good at Yoki sensing, but she seems pretty horrible in combat/defense again.
(Takes forever to reattach legs.)
With that said, within the numbers of 5-10, we have Phantom Miria, Windcutter Flora, and Drill Sword Jean.
Versus the likes of Shadow Hunter Nina, Tracker Dietrich, Raftela, Hair Anastasia etc etc
Certainly lack of power here as well.
Now we can look at numbers 1-2.
From previous eras, we have Luciela and Rafaela, both "equal" in power and certainly of AO criteria. We have from Teresa's era, Teresa and Priscilla, basically the strongest produced in the whole manga.
From Clare's era, we have Alicia and Beth, still deserving of Rank 1 and 2, and again AO quality, yet not as good as prior generations (they both easily get destroyed by Pris).
Although my argument is not very solid in specific areas, it's a general observation.
My argument's generally centered around numbers 3-10, who have declined throughout the eras.
Does anyone else feel the same way?
Yes, this is definitely one thing I notice with the progression of the story. The current generation is easily explained since they have the perfect excuse of having a shortage of warriors after the Pieta event. However, I wouldn't say Clare's generation is lacking too much compared to the previous (as far as we've seen anyway.)
Ophelia is definitely one of the stronger ones in Clare's generation. I do admit she doesn't give off a feel to be especially outstanding, but she definitely fares well in Awakened Being hunts, something we have not seen from Noel and Sophia and thus have no way of comparing. (However, as you have mentioned, Noel and Sophia can manage one strike on Priscilla, which is an amazing feat. I see the two of them as equally strong, only with a differing specialty.) Having said that, Ophelia deserves the rank she holds in her generation; Rafaela is only No.5 because she doesn't want the attention for her line of work for the Organisation. She is suggested to be joint in rank with Luciela.
Galatea might not have the battle prowess, but she's one of the best we've seen so far at Youki detection, going so far as being able to read emotions and physical movements from long distances judging from Youki alone. I am agreeing with you about Irene. One thing to note is that, I don't think either of them would choose to fight Dauf in your example.
Galatea could somewhat stand up to Dauf and is quite knowledgeable about Riful, whereas Audrey is surprised by Riful's power, possibly suggesting that she has little experience in facing comparatively strong enemies.
I would say Irene and Galatea are definitely the Big Sisters for their respective generation, I see them as the polar opposites of each other on the same level, being experts in their respective field, one purely offensive and the other purely defensive (of course, Galatea would have to have enough fighting potential to back-up her ranking.) Nonetheless, in terms of going head to head, Teresa, Priscilla, and Irene can absolutely own everyone from Alicia* to Clare in Clare's generation (excluding Rafaela, whom I somewhat consider her to be in the older generation.) Don't forget Teresa's generation also at some point includes Rosemary, another No.1 candidate. From what we know so far, the apex of Claymore definitely lies in her generation as you have put it.
*I can't say I know much about Alicia and Beth though. Surely they can transform, but Teresa can probably decimate them just as she did with Rosemary. Putting unawakened Priscilla up against their true power may be too much of a difference, but Priscilla can most likely last much longer than anyone from Clare's generation, not to mention she's up for 2v1. Goes without saying, Priscilla's potential is something even Teresa is wary of. Awakened Pris can finish them up in 2 seconds as shown. Alicia and Beth can just about defeat Riful and Dauf, but with a lot of inteference and Dauf dragging Riful down (eg. Riful trying to save Dauf from the Destroyer, Abyssal Feeders wearing down Riful.)
Old Miria certainly is not as good back then. Though very powerful and captivating, her specialty is heavily limited by number of uses. Can't exactly compare her to the older generation, but she can certainly go head-to-head against Audrey. Rachel's just a joke I actually pity her lol :P Probably comparable to old Helen/Deneve which is Rank 15+ in Clare's time. Somehow I feel Dietrich can potentially beat Old Miria, or can at least rival her. She's probably ranked wrongly due to a demotion or something. Dietrich is the only outstanding one I'd say that defies the trend.
Overall, the trend is clear at places and weak elsewhere, but I would say there's a general decline of quality whatever the reason.
Teresa + Priscilla + Irene (+ Rosemary, since she's from around the same time I might as well add her)
> Alicia + Beth + Galatea + Ophelia (+ Rafaela)
> Alicia + Beth + Audrey + Rachel.
Note that I don't mean adding up the power levels with the plus sign here, just saying these are the outstanding ones in their generation.
Yeah, it seems like sad truth.
The best that new generation of Claymroes has to provide is Miata who is stronger then Galatea ( who by the way had biggest yoki of all the warriors from Clare's generation ) but is mentally unstable thus being unable to do anything. Until she meet Clarice at least, but that is her biggest weakness - she became so bond to her that I think she may go berserk and awaken if she ever lose her.
On the topic of comparing warriors from Teresa's generation and post Teresa's generation - the difference is obvious. Teresa alone would be able to beat every single one of them. The biggest trouble she would have with Rafaela because she don't release any yoki, but in terms of sheer power I think that Teresa would blow her out of proportions. Ilena demonstrated that she was stronger then Ophelia ( she took her down while being inactive all that time ), but I think that she would have hard time with Galatea until she figured her out and then she would eventually beat her. In any case Clare's generation would have no chance against Teresa's generation.
As for this generation... they are all kind of lame. Number 3, 4 and 5 showed us that they are perfectly capable to take down one awakened but other than that nothing special. With the only exception being Miata, but as I said without Clarice she is useless.
It may be also possible that it is because of the Askaram themselves - the more time it passes their flesh became more and more weaker and as a result each next generation of Claymores is weaker then the one before. The only exception to the theory being Teresa and Priscilla who are quite strong even for their own generation.
I do believe that the generations of warriors after Teresa's generation are generally inferior to their predecessors, but I believe there are perfectly logical reasons to this.
One of the reason is that the organization's ultimate objective is to created controllable awaken beings.
With that said, I believe that Teresa's generation was the last generation that the organization actually prioritized in developing and training individual strong warriors. Reason being that when Teresa was a trainee, the organization acquired the Zemas twins who were most likely Alicia and Beth. Since the Zemas twins were still babies, it is likely that they have to be at least a few years old to begin their training. Thus, there were still time for the organization to created and train strong individual warriors.
During Clare's generation, Alicia and Beth were still incomplete, the organization's priority had already shifted to spend more time and efforts on perfecting them as we saw, because it was their main goal, controllable awaken beings.
During Clarice's generation, Alicia and Beth are completed, but shrimps twins are being developed and trained to the point where they are able switch awakening, and on top of that the Abyssal Eaters are being made and deploy. Developing and training strong individual warriors is probably not very high at the organization's priority list. To the organization, they just need the warriors to be strong enough to complete normal tasks like hunting awaken beings and yomas. Remember, in Clarice's generation, the warriors actively hunt awaken beings rather or not there is a request, the organization needed the awaken beings' flesh and blood to created the Abyssal Eaters. They were probably a bit busier than the previous generation to properly train themselves.
Another reason is the decline of guidance and wisdoms from seasoned and experienced strong warriors.
In Teresa's generation, although they suffered the Rockwell incident with Hysteria, there were still strong warriors left standing such as Rosemary and Teresa.
In Clare's generation, they had suffered the lost of No.1 to No.5, but there were still experienced No.6 to No.9. In a group, the warriors with the higher No. leads. As we saw with Miria and Hilda, the other warriors benefits from the experiences and wisdom of the single digit who are experienced. Sometimes, like Hilda, the seasoned strong warrior may offer guidance to the development of the other warriors under their command.
In Clarice's generation, after the period of Pieta's fall, the organization had actually lost all the single digits from No.3 to No.9 (Galatea deserted, Ophelia was killed before, and Rafaela went missing), and even the double digits in the teens were mostly lost. Alicia and Beth are there, but I doubt they group with anyone else or even talk to anyone. Thus, the upcoming generation of warriors have minimal to no guidance or wisdom from any seasoned and experienced strong warriors that would have benefited their development. The current generation of warriors have to learn everything by themselves from scratch. Miata being a special case is just naturally strong.
Besides, if the current generation of warriors are really that strong, then they may outshine the ghosts, who have reached a strong resolve in carrying on the wills of their fallen comrades, and have been training for 7 years until they spill out blood. It would be like a slap in the face to their 7 years of hard work and their resolve.
Thus, I do try to be less critical of the power of this current generation of warriors under these circumstances.
The organization must have done something right in creating strong warriors from Hysteria's generation to Teresa's. Rosemary who was only a No.4 during Hysteria's time, was qualified to become a No.1, as we know the organization doesn't just give out No.1 to anyone. Thus, the No.2 and No.3 of Hysteria were likely No.1 material as well, but it's just that Hysteria had a superior technique than them. Then comes Teresa, Irene, and Priscilla.
(Only fun speculation, no evidence whatsoever, if Octavia was the No.2 in Hysteria's time or even the No.2 during the time of other strongest No.1s in history, then likely she has power close to that of an Abyssal One, it would explain why she is so confident in taking on Cassandra)
Last edited by God Eye Galatea; February 12, 2013 at 11:23 PM.
This is not truly the place for this, but when the Ghosts' generations were revealed in chp 130, I was surprised that Yuma was the second oldest (129th generation), but in all her time as an active warrior, she only reached #40.
Sure she's insecure, and we don't don't know exactly how much time went as some generations may come closer in time to compensate losses, but surely, with experience and training, she should have made it at least in the 20s... It's even more puzzling when you know she had the potential, and she reached it in seven years, a relatively short time in comparison.
Although the Organization does (most of the time) a pretty sound job with the Claymore rankings, they cannot be aware of every possible ounce of potential that the warriors possess.
This scenario occurs several times throughout the Claymore manga; obviously the Organization (and pretty much everyone else) never realized Teresa's true strength even though she is a number 1 Rank Claymore.
Similarly, Clare obviously has much more potential than any of the lower ranking warriors (30-47) and yet throughout her length of the story, still does not get promoted.
In fact, throughout the whole length of the manga that we have seen, only once have we witnessed a Claymore actually get promoted (back in the Organization's HQ after Clare went missing after the AB hunt w/Ophelia).
As for Yuma, she has always been pretty weak in comparison, and especially with the Organization's standards, it is pretty hard to rank up.
As a lower ranked warrior, you only get sent to kill Yoma and perhaps put into an AB party once in a while.
But you never truly face single digit ABs or other overpowered nonsense, (and killing Yoma barely does anything), so you don't really have much to learn from through those experiences.
Even though Yuma is the second oldest, she still has not advanced much due to lack of opportunity to improve skill; whereas Clare had multiple opportunities being offered to her, explaining how she got so powerful in such a relatively short period of time.
The Invasion of Pieta was nothing like the lower-ranked Claymores (who may have never even faced ANY ABs before) could have previously experienced.
I'm sure the Seven Ghosts trained for seven years, and probably didn't lie about "pushing until blood came out".
In this situation, every day of the Seven Ghosts' training must have been, in comparison to the Organization's obstacles, a 1:30 factor.
Even though a Claymore does not get affected by the cold and can endure days without food easily, the seclusion for seven years and only with six other warriors forced to hide in the mountains certainly provides a much more severely felt experience than what the Organization sets forth.
Heck, even Clarice could probably gain improvement to somewhere near single digit status if they went through the Ghosts' training.
and if you are factoring in the sevne ghosts in your idea, realize they had been training for seven years before encountering the current generation and were already mostly of high level claymore to begin with. four of them are half awakened too.
hell the number ones re of varying levels of power. jsut becuase you are the strongest of the generation does nto mean you are the strongest period. some claymore might live long enough to be the strongest for several generations.
a good example is isley. true therea re three others who were declared fo the abyssal level, but he was the most powerful. only raphela's awakened sister dared fight him, and she lost, and riful onyl appraoched him after he was worn down from that fight.
casssandra is another example. she far surpassed her enemy, far more than isley surpassed his enemy because she defeated her without sustaining seriuos insjury. she also killed hysteria, but i might factor that as hsyteria being totally distracted by miria and being of a smaller body size.
the variation is far too great to judge. hell the young claymores there might have individuals who might become the new number ones.
I am factoring them before they became Ghosts, now like that they could own everyone easily.Quote:
True, in the end it all depends on their training and individual power.Quote:
Off-topic; as I dubbed Rafaella as a falsely ranked number 5 Claymore during Clare's generation, what would her true rank based on her Yoki supression, Yoki-emitting field fighting style, battle ranking stats (pretty much all around A range), and massive experience be? I would assume between rank 1 Alicia/Beth and rank 2 Galatea; or since although both Alicia and Beth are equal in power, no two warriors can hold one rank, between rank 2 Beth and rank 3 Galatea.
Or even rank 1 if Alicia/Beth could not use Soul Link.
#2 and #3 probably were killed at Rockwell hill by Hysteria. It would make more sense than Rosemary jumping them in rank.Quote:
---------- Post added at 10:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 PM ----------
Even Noel and Sophia? I don't think that they could take Galatea and Ophelia.Quote:
Rafaella is pretty much a #1. Rubel pretty much says so in the manga. He said something along the lines that she holds power equal to her sister, Luciella. You can't have two #1's so she was given the rank of #2.Quote:
To me, the offensive traits of Noel or Sophia could triumph the Yoki-power multiplier of Galatea, and as stated before, Ophelia is certainly a diamond in the desert. Truly, we have Alicia/Beth/Rafaella as deserving of Rank #1 all at the same time, and then probably #2 with Ophelia and #3 with Galatea.
I mentally re-evaluated the rankings, due to Org's inaccuracies;
1-Alicia, Beth, Rafaella, Miata
5-9 Jean, Flora, Eva etc
Finally, I also noticed that Yoki seems to be lacking as well.
In some earlier post, it was suggested that the DoD's flesh may have deteriorated and lack quality through the time lapse.
We'd need to know how long the span of the previous eras (before Teresa's) were. Relatively, I'd assume Teresa's era was pretty long.
Furthermore, we still have Lutecia the Universal, Heavy Bladed Chloe, Sistina the Divine Oracle, and Three-Armed Licht, who were all number 1 female Claymores, but we have no idea about.
But pursuing the Yoki issue, I've noticed that Teresa and Priscilla both unarguably have the most Yoki out of the whole Claymore history.
I'm sure Irene was argued to be one of the top Claymore warriors, seeing as she single-handedly (literally) defeated an Ophelia. And we can assume Irene would be able to defeat Galatea as well (due to her Org. stats and such).
But with Clare's generation, only prominent Yoki would be from Alicia, Beth, and Galatea.
From Clarice's generation, there is truly no mention of augmented Yoki abilities anywhere besides Alicia and Beth (again).
Could it be rather the quality of Yoki that could be deteriorating from the DoD flesh?
Since Yoki originally came from Yoma, and Yoma came from DoD.
My other theory was that Dae might have wanted to avoid another Priscilla/Teresa incident and put less and less Yoma flesh/blood/content into the Claymores (or maybe less DoD flesh/blood/content into the Yomas). The quality of one's Yoki is directly related to the percentage of Yoma that consists of one's body.
Remember that Clare was initially weak and unable to produce much Yoki (a really tiny Yoki, as Riful describes it) due to the fact of her 1/4 Yoma rather than 1/2 (as a result of inheriting Teresa's flesh and blood rather than a Yoma's flesh and blood). It is possible that Dae intentionally put perhaps 4/9 content instead of 1/2 and then gradually lower content into future Claymores.
Oh, and I also wanted to see if you guys could produce an alias for Rafaella and her technique of emitting a faint field of Yoki around her to increase her senses and peripheral vision.
Perhaps Rafaella the Visionary, or Rafaella the Detector?
and she ultiamtely killed a creature that survived an assault by priscilla. if amount of yoma flesh is equivalent to the level of power, then how come she so ended up defeating an awakened being of the first generation. let alone that back then they would probably start with overcompensation in amounts to begin with.
another problem entirely is that we really do not know What the organization has put inside of the claymores. at first it kinda made sense. the tissue and blood of a yoma being implanted thus giving the subject similar powers, and surprisingly enough even greater strength than the yoma.
but now it is different. the yoma are now revealed to be not what we see. they are prasites that take over a host and infect it, altering tis shape to its whim but ultimately ruining their vessel frocing them to take a new body.
the idea of using the flesh and tissue of these bodies seems.... inefficient. it is extremely unlikely a yoma leaves much of itself inside of a host body, so that it can more easily leap to a new host after it uses up the current body. not to mention the bodies are more than liekly drained of vital material and nutrients, as would happen during a parasitic take over.
so the question remains. what is realyl inside of a claymore? what hdies beneath that vivisection, their stigma?
Interesting point. My armchair theory:
The org lost all the single digits below Alicia and Beth (as well as a good chunk of the teens and twenties) with Ophelia's death, the massacre at Pieta and subsequent desertions. As God Eye Galatea mentioned, the new warriors would have had a lack of veterans to train with, but time itself is also likely a factor in building up a roster of strong Claymores. Clarice's generation has only had around 7 years to develop. Assuming that previous generations had more time, this would make the current crop weaker in two ways:
First, more time means more training and combat experience, which makes a better warrior.
Second, Claymores' lifespans are limited only by their tendency to awaken or death by Yoma/AB. Warriors mentally disciplined enough to resist awakening and skilled in combat enough to not get killed in battle (e.g. Raphaela, Galatea) can live for a long time.
So, even if the rate of creation of powerful Claymores is fairly constant, the longer you wait the stronger the top 9 get simply because the strong ones tend to last a while (and get stronger over time) and the weak either die or get replaced when someone better comes along. This might also explain why there is such a power difference between high and low ranking Claymores.