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Well, 76trombones, thank you for being a moron for my sake.
Europe showed us what it can do, it can have hollowcausts! The hollowcaust is the reason why we got this country, and in this land we already had settelments, and in the end, even became a majority in here.
You can come and say "But the hollowcaust was over, people have learned from their mistakes!" And still, many people around the world (and in Europe) look at us, jews, in bad eyes, in Germany, the Neo Natzis are getting power, and you tell us we were suppose to stay there, in a place we weren't belong to, in Europe? Where are you from? What if I'll tell you that I'm sending you to a place where everyone around you hates you because you don't deserve a country of your own? And to remind you, jews are very influent, of course we've recieved this country.
And, moreover, you said a lot of... Well, I don't want to talk bad about you, because I'm a mod and all, but this are sayings against my country, and I can't stand here and be quiet. Israel came toward Palestine many times, and even now, Israel has agreed to a no-terms cease of fire, you know what that means?! Although we've surpressed the palastinian resistance with force, destroying their terror tools, and we could've asked to stop smuggling weapons, stop the arment and many other requests, we've requested nothing and went out of there. And than, an hour into the cease fire, they've launched a "kasam", what do you say about that? We're not trying to win, we're trying to win piece, we agreed to give them territory, but it's not enough for them, the best is probably to drive them away, but no one of the arabs around are willing to take them, don't listen to the arabs when they say "Oh, no! We can't let our brothers the palestinians be hurt by the dreadful zionists", they are just saying it so they'll have a reason to hate us. When they were in Jordan, the Jordanians treated the palastinians like garbage, and threw them away back here, the same with egypt and every other country. They are just an excuse.
And although that, anything we can do to try solve this case in ways this way will be solved (Because sorry, peace will never happen) will result in the world hating us, for crying out loud, when we do things for self defense the all world is already starting "Hey, what are you doing?!" When a kid dies of a bus being bombed, we don't throw it at the media, we try to keep it discrete, and the kids never did a things! when a palastinian kid is being kept in a building who has weapons in, or some person we have to terminate for our self defence, and he days because he's there, the news all around the world go crazy. Do you understand? The kid was there to die. It was his death or the death of many. It's not like he was at the right place at the wrong time, he was in there just to make the news. In gaza, when someone goes with a luncher to attack, he's surrounded by 8 children so if we'll try to kill him, we'll have to kill kids. I've seen those things I'm now saying. I just don't see how anyone can call us inhumans for our acts, they care for their children so much that they put them in dangerous positions just for them to die. They care for their lives so much they are willing to bomb themselves in cars.
Where is the humanity?! You're saying we're inhuman when we try to keep casaulties to the minimum? So be it, the mind of the one who was brainwashed by the world's media can never be changed, I guess...
If there is a solution, one with peace that will be agreed with both sides, say it, because our country is looking for it restlessly, but the palastinians ask for Jerusalem, and for Tel Aviv and for Haifa, they ask unreasonable things. We try to make some program that is just, and they always disagree with it, even when this place was built, they didn't agree to the plans of the divison of the grounds...
Israel, like I said, was inevitable, the only other solution was for all of us jews to just die, and that's unreasonable.
well I do appluad you for taking the attacks on israel in a good and responsible manner, but basically you seemed to have read just the last post, you didnt comment on any other part of the discussion which are mostly about the history of palestine and israel.Originally Posted by ThE WoRm
second of all, about peace, I think the two states solution might be a must now, and arafat accepted such and the peace process was going well until prime minister ehud barak refused any right for the refugees whatsoever and the peace talks went away, after that every side pointed to the other blaming them for what happened and things went down from there, I would believe if the refugee issue was solved I could see a true move to peace, about jerusalem, well its been with the arabs for 1400 years, as sacred as you believe it to be, would you have given it up, any way israel does already have half of it and military control on the palestinian half, I am not going to propose any solution for this since I am not a politician I am just asking of what you think.
please read the posts of before and comment.
I agree I didn't read this all post, because I just didn't have time, so I summed up the last few threads.
I don't know if it was mentioned, but the palastinians became what they are when Shimo'on peres had brought Arafat here. A stupid move it was.
Anyways, saying that Arafat wanted peace is like saying that Ahmadinijad wants the atomic bomb for self protection. Give me a break, Ehud barak is seen in a bad eye in Israel because of something that people thought was what happened but it was not that, people believed Ehud Barak was willing to give all of israel to the hands of the palastinians. He wanted to know what Arafat wants for that "so called" peace you're talking about, and Arafat wanted all of the big cities in Israel, and Ehud said "Let's say I'll give you that, will you be satisfied?" "No, I want this", and than Ehud Barak as called it off. Yes, let's give all of Israel for peace. We work all the time to create two countries, but it seems impossible.
About Jerusalem, we agreed to share, and some treaties see Jerusalem as a natural place, although I live in Jerusalem, so, no.
About the refugee problem, you mean the refugee excuse, like I said, that was not the reason, Arafat never really wanted peace, we've agreed to give them weapons so we can get to peace and that weapon was used against us, that is backstabbing, it's hard to do peace with those who do that. I don't see where your facts are coming from, but it's good to recheck them...
thanks for your comments, but about the facts well its simply from many documantiries that were broadcasted and made here in the uk by the BBC, so you could check there if you wanted, it was also what the american representatives said in the news when they were put on in interviews, so you could also check the websites of the respective amrican institutions who dealt whith this case, like the white house's website or the the american presidency, or any information that bill clinton might have on this isuue, since he was the third one who was present in the meeting between arafat barak.
anyway I still would like that you would comment on the history too so when you have some time try to look at the other posts at this thread.
Can you give me a summary of what you said? Anyways, it's good (and bad in the same time) to see there are people who care for something that is irrellevent for them, for the USA goverment it's relevent as the jews have a lot of power over the USA, but for most of the other people, it's irrelevant, I myself wouldn't get involve in this case if not for the fact that people of my own country are dying over those nonsenses, and I never really trusted BBC, and I mentioned the main reason why not, when there is a suicide bombing it's something small, but when we accidently kill children that were put there to die, because it was an armory or something, the BBC goes all mad "What are those Israelians doing?! They can't be doing something good if kids are being killed!" And they show the picture of the dead kids, but the problem is that we almost never kill innocents on porpuse, we kill them because they are there only to prevent us from protecting ourselves. They kill innocent on porpuse, I want this damn situation to stop, I just want it to stop, but peace can only be acheived if Palastine won't act as the winner to every act, it's just impossible when they didn't even win, they want the all hand every time, and we come toward them, tell them we will give up on that, and on that, and they say no... Peace can only be achieved if one side can really be "victorious" like we call it... But we, that listen to them get no good response out of it.
I know what was said, and the refugee problem had its own issues, the only reason why Arafat wanted them was so he can try to claim more territory as he has more people. If I remember the issue you're talking about right.
go to page 3 of this thread and have a look at the debate between me and remus about the history of the conflict.Originally Posted by ThE WoRm
Well, I read the debate, let's begin that the claim of "Well, israel belongs to the osmanic empire from the start, which were all muslams" is like saying "the USA needs to dissolve itself and give the territory to the indians that are left on that ground. There were always jews in Israel, and as much as there is no "proof" to the thing called the "bible", there are historical evidents we were there in the past, that's not to be questioned. (like what is left of our beloved temple, the west wall, in Jerusalem).Originally Posted by Remus
The fact is that Israel had become part of the colonies of great britian, and they had all rights on that (it's like saying that when a new ruler raises up to power, the old ruler is the one who should had the power with him). They decided, after seeing what goes on with Europe, and as a solution to that, to put more and more jews in Israel, that is what called the "white books" that let a certain amount of jews to enter Israel at a time. Well, anyways, Syks pico is that thing with dividing the colonies, right? It has been done, and Britian and Italy had all the rights to do it, because they won the war, so they divide the spoils of war (that was the pardigm back then, that was their ethical view of the matter), so everything happened like that. Britian was given Israel to do what it thinks is best for Israel, and that's what Britian did.
Now, the time to put out the mendate (it wasn't a colony, but a mendate, a right of power over the land) off was nearing, and so, they thought about logical ways to split the country, which has become to have a big amount of jews (less than that of the muslams), but the arabs didn't agree to anything. In the end, it was the UN that agreed that the jews has some rights over the land, and it was the UN that decided the last split that was offered was okay, as the muslams didn't agree to it, although the majority of the rest of the world did, what happened was that the jews got everything. But the jews never ceased to say "Well, there is a need to split the lands between us", and we're still saying it now, the problem is that Palastine can't agree they're at a disadvantage, do they act like beasts (by doing terror) and don't agree to any offer we offer them, no matter how much we come forward to them.
Saying "the right was of the muslams" is as strong as saying "the right was of the jews", because this land has been changed between hands and everytime the right belongs to the one who is in that ground. That's all.
I just have to come in and congratulate everybody for discussing this topic in a very calm and collected manner - I'm amazed that the moderators didn't have to step in at all the whole time this thread has existed.
But I have a feeling that emotions are starting to get high here, so if you guys EVER feel like you are getting steamed, please leave the thread for awhile.
Well, I'm just putting my thoughts as I see them from my point of view, that's all. I try to use natural claims to prove my point of view and so, but people who try to say something that is like "Let's throw all of the israelis to the river" really make me mad, although I don't say anyone said it, but I got my feeling out of things. I really think there is no reason for anyone who isn't a part of it to take part of it, and I really did talk a little emotionally. But I'll take that sentence of yours and always watch it and try keeping my claims as calm as possible ^^"
well. youve finally commented, I have many things that I might disagree with you on about this, but I already posted my thoughts after remus's comments, so I guess everyone had his say in this thread which is good enough for me.
dont worry about things too much GK, we are all big boys here and can handle a discussion or disagreement, right?
Ha, yes, and another claim about "the land is of the muslams", if anyone wants to see who had ownership of this land not in a given time, but the first and rightious one who can claim it, here is the thing in wiki about kingdom of israel (which we have proofs (not the bible!! Archeologic ones) for its existance):
Hooo this thread has still been goin' on? Interesting!
I don't want to put my hands in that pasta again but i'll just remind you that if you're lookin
for a solution in history , you may be looking in the wrong place ( we've already discuss that earlier in the thread).
@The Worm :-) With that "first and rightious one who can claim it" do you mean that it should be ok
to give back North America to the Native-Americans , South America to the Amazonian Indians and Australia to
the aboriginals (<--is that right?) ?
My hint will be to stop lookin for who's right and who's wrong. That leeds to nowhere IMO.
Sorry for my rudeness but i think that the faster solution will be to FORCE back the boundaries from 1947 (or 48 don't remember) adopted by the UN. That's when it all began and it has to be where it all ends.
I'm talkin' bout military force from the strongest nation of this world.
Then build a wall if ya want ,or some mined fields :-P
The first to start again got nuked! NO that's too hardcore XDDD
The first leader instigating people to use violence or even talkin' bout takin back some lands got hunted down!
Any army gathering to attack got carpet-bombed.
Ask for eventual terrosrism , both country will just have to deal with it like the rest of the world , with
inteligence , to know who's really causing the trouble , and not by bombing whole towns full of innocent people
and takin the land as a booty (that's just laaaame).
That's about it.
I tried for years to come up with some pacific solutions but :-P that was no use .
Hope i didn't offend anybody and i said sorry :-)
very nicely said enzomars......
I'll say it'll have mabe a 0.1 % chance of this conflict being solved by both sides wilingly with peacefull intentions....
what I mean is that this conflict will reach to such a hight that everybody will be forced to make peace... that's how it seems to be going....
if people would only understand that the past is the past were it a year ago or 100 years...... nothing is worth risking this many lifes for.......
the worst thing about all this is the hatred that the people on sides develop towards each other specaily the palestines....yes palestines might be the ones who were opressed but have the most prejudice unquenchable hatred towards israel i've ever seen, this is very important to me and I believe to the world even if you think otherwise, it's because I live amongst them I know how they feel and what intentions they have.... hatred just blind hatred they have been fed by they're parents, teachers..... this won't bring peace but more violence, this won't find a solution but instead tear the wound wider.....
sometimes I ask myself why do people see this and ignore this... it kills me to see this much and kind of hatred specaily amongst the young....
..........sorry I guess I just let my amotions go on the hatred thing.....
I guess you got my point anyways......
life would be better if forgot the past no matter how short it was even if it was yesterday.....thats the way to do it if both sides can't accept this then the only way is the hard way which is by some way both sides are forced to make some kind of allegiance.......
ok i've said too much leave the rest of the thinking to you guyz