---------- Post added at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 PM ----------
Hakuteiken, just wanted to say you show some Very good points and i agree. I think that maybe Haribel didn't fall to Aizen's hypnosis, just his fighting ability/power. I can't remember if it showed Kyouka Suigetsu being used when he cut down Harribel or not. And i think Gin's sword's speed is probably as fast as SoiFon, just a guess/opinion though no proof.
Some of the Vizard Captains have yet to prove they are above Tier 5 either.Quote:
@ deadsuit-I was talking about Wonderwiess, when Kensei fought wonderwiess Aizen made it perfectly clear that he was supposed to not only null Yama's sword abilities, but be able to kill him as well. Kensei had an unfair fight. When Rose and Love took over fighting Stark I also saw that as Kubo saying that they were suitable replacements for Shunsui and Ukitake for the fight.
and to RandomShikafan- That's true, but iam taking stricktly inference. I don't belive they would have pitted Wondy against Kensei unless he was the only one of Aizen's soldiers that could have taken him at, Love and Rose replaced Shunsui and Ukitake and did as well IMO. I say that because Starrk did NOT get serious until Barragan died. That means he was messing around with Shunsui as well. However When Shunsui watched Starrk's fight with the 2 Vizards he analyzed the "spirit wolf ability" (anime only) and found a way to counter it. But only after Rose and Love fought against it first. Shinji only fought against Aizen so we cant get a fair read on him, but Aizen did have to resort to illusions.
However this is just my opinion based on what I read, take with a grain of salt.
But on your original hypothesis, I do not believe that Vaizard captains have shown enough to be considered at the same tier with a senior captain. But I cannot exactly rule it out, either. Maybe this arc will reveal more about their comparative powers and we'll get a better picture.
Until then, I'm still saying that they must be considered a notch below and also, I have a tendency to think that Shinji has surpassed every other Vaizard captain in terms of power. It'd not be odd, if some sense-altering Zanpakuto wielder would be the strongest out of his generation, like Aizen, again.
---------- Post added at 03:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------
And Harribel, while two ranks below Stark, was serious the entire time. And Hitsugaya was fighting her solo for a great amount of time. And had it stayed on one on would have won. Him and Soifon lasted against against Aizen better, in a much more beat up condition then Love and Rose too. The difference between them is not hyped up to be two tiers, IMO.
Last edited by RandomShikafan; August 08, 2012 at 08:33 PM.
"even if we keep fighting on like this, somebody else is probably gonna die. I get it so let's just go home and sleep". Deep down he had already giving up. I don't know about other espadas, but Starrk regards everyone of them (maybe not yammy) as his friends. As Barragan falls, most of his friends are now dead. He's afraid of getting lonely again.
Hakuteiken, RandomShikafan, and River_Capule all made very good point regarding Love and Roses. I DO think I could drop them a tier, however I wouldnt put them on my Tier 5 list, I'd place them at 4. However the power boost they get from their hollow masks are still not really known, so they could be still above byakuya but who knows really.
I would not drop Kensei because I don't think the argument about Wonderweiss would hold up in court. Not that anything that was pointed out was wrong, but I must pint out, that Mashiro didn't let her guard down, she was over-confident about her hollow mask time, and it was diminished by Wondy's sheer spiritual pressure. He hit her one time and nearly killed her...does that not speak for his raw physical strength alone? Now also consider how Mashiro did beat him to a pulp and he had no signs of slowing down and never sustained any real damage, plus he had a child's mind so he could have been playing with her for all we know. Also consider how easily he impaled a senior captain through the chest, simply because Ukitake was not paying full attention to him. That's fast. Also He manged to sneak up on Yamamoto and strike him sending him VERY far, though of course we saw how that all ended. Point is, he did perform incredible feats that Starrk did not. I think Kensei was likely beaten as a result of Wondy's regeneration (which may have been on par to Ulqiorra's second resurrection) However someone pointed out having high hopes for this arc finally shedding light on the vizards powers, I too hope that, and feel that it will.
---------- Post added at 01:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 AM ----------
Oh and please allow me to adress the Halibel debate rearding Toshiro. I thought it was heavily implied that the only reason Toshiro kept up in terms of power with her was because He had the ability to counter her water by freezing it. I figured had she been a wielder of electricity, she would have won sooner..though He DID hold back on his ULTIMATE petal freezing ability. But again, I thought they were just perfect counters to each other so the battle was a stalemate.
Though i"ll say this, it is true that Wonderweiss's scream is wat shattered the mountain, it could have been for dramatic effect. We arent certain that she could not have broken out on her own. I say that because Hitsaguya stated that she would be dead when the last petal fell, it was his most basic and most powerful attack and it DID FAIL to kill her. In fact, when she broke out, she was fine. Wonderweiss's scream also moved the smoke covering Barragan, and it's not like he was gonna suffocate or die from black lung. I thought Kubo wrote that in to simultaneously show how futile their efforts were. I could be wrong tho.
How is lying on the ground for 8 chapters not a sign of slowing down? Obviously Mashiro knocked him out cold for a while.Quote:
He's shown speed and strength yes. He has not consistently held up against two captains head on like Stark did.Quote:
Harribel was indeed faster and stronger then him at short range, if she had focused on that it might have been different. But she wouldn't have chosen to rely on her water attacks if they weren't her best attacks overall and the Third Espada actual ultimate special attacks were at best equal if nbot less then Toshiro ultimate attacks in power. That still speaks towards Toshiro's strength, not his potential, his current staying power. We can't say these kinds of things about the Vzards yet.Quote:
Like I said, Harribel was serious from the start. She was not amusing herself like Baraggan or didn't really want to fight like Starrk. She wanted to kill Toshiro and avenge her Fraccion. No reason to think she was able to escape up till then. She didn't need Aizen signal to get serious. And the translation i read said she'd be dead when the last flower bloomed. We dunno if that happened yet by the time Wonderweiss did his thing (and it's pretty unfair to say that Wonderweiss's sheer spiritual pressure is what broke Mashiro's mask but not give him credit for this, can't have it both ways.)Quote:
Last edited by RandomShikafan; August 09, 2012 at 02:16 AM.
Wonderweiss didnt just hit her, he clobbered her with one punch. Also, did you forget that Kensei went bankai against him and still lost? None of the other captain vizards went bankai and I am inclined to think that if Shunsui could successfully kill Starrk with a mere shikai, then Rose and Love could have atleast used their bankai with their masks on and killed starrk in a 1-1. If I could conclude that (and I thin thats a pretty fair assumption) then I would say Wonderweiss defeating a captain vizard in bankai is an unbelievable feat. Though you are very much entitled to your opinion.
Also the problem with the debate is, we dont have anything to compare Mashiro to. We really are just all speculating at this point, but why would Mashiro man handling Wonderweiss make him weak? Why would it not speak volumes for her strength instead? Also she kicked the giant fat blob in half with just 1 kick. How do we know that she is weak? We don't. Look when Wonderweiss landed that hit on her, he didnt just bruise her, he nearly killed her. And if it wasnt Wondy's spiritual pressure that did it, i can accept it. But what else did it? Why was she positive she had a 15 hour limit, and why was Kensei telling her not to wear the mask around Wonderweiss. Cause he obviously knew something that she didnt since he's the more experienced fighter.
Sadly the only way to know would be for Kubo to simulate a fight between ALL good characters in bleach vs 1 specific bad guy (grimmjaw or starrk) and go from there based on how everyone did.
You should also reference the time when Toshiro was overwhelmed by an espada weaker than Grimmjaw. You do remember that right? Luppi. Toshiro he got beat quickly then Luppi got careless and Toshiro used Luppi's over-confidence against him by setting up that ice prison, (which also didn't kill him) Point is you are basing all of Toshiro's power on a single fight that he never finished, when I could just as easliy base it on the fight with Luppi, but I am much aware that that was just a bad display of his real abilities.
---------- Post added at 02:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:29 AM ----------
BUt im not trying to argue, I just would like to point out a different point of view. I could be wrong and I'm open to that, but with Kubo there is so much ambiguity with these fights that you have to take things as they come sometimes; and other times you have to make your best educated guess. I do think a lot of these fight can be viewed as situational, if shunsui and Ukitake had been fighting Yammi, well then perhaps raw physical power would have suited that fight better instead. And Love had that, clearly thats what helped win against Yami cause Kenpachi emerged the victor along side Byakuya.
I didn't say she was weak or that Wonderweiss was weak. i disagreed that he was clearly the greatest Arrancar. Saying he nearly killed her in one punch doesn't prove that. Even against Renji in Bankai do I think Ulquiorra could kill him without using either sword or Cero and easily at that.Quote:
Yeah. It was. Toshiro wasn't confident he wouldn't kill Kira with just his shikai if he was less then 7 miles away from his fight with Ichimaru. In this situation he was using his Bankai in the habitated area of the world of the Living, with three subordinates taking part in the fight. To say that he had to tiptoe would be understating it. He stayed hidden after a single hit and tried to end it with a single precise attack. Only makes sense. It was a hostage situation.Quote:
Fair enough, but you have to understand that Yammy and for that matter Wonderweiss are absolute extremes. All reaiutsu, no tactics, skills or anything beyond it. There's a reason Kenpachi called the Cero Espada a boring fight.Quote:
Last edited by RandomShikafan; August 09, 2012 at 03:31 AM.
actually if I may, i would not mind revising my list. I do agree with your point of view that it is difficult to group love rose and kensei (3 captain level vizards who lost) in the same category as Shunsui who did successfully defeat his opponent.
tier 1 would include Ichido post dangai, Yamamoto and Aizen in all his stages of evolution
Tier 2 (is nothing but pure speculation it cannot be proven by any means) Isshin, Urahara, Yourichi, Tessai and Ryyuken.
Tier 3 would be very close in terms of power and skill to tier 2, Shunsui Ukitake, Shinji, and most likely Unahana.
Tier 4 Byakuya Kenpachi, Love, Rose, and Kensei. (The vizards are older and were captains 110 years ago and have hollow powers so it IS likely they are stronger than Byakuya)
Tier 5 Soi-fong. Mayuri, Komomura, Toshirou
(none of tier 5 defeated an opponent worth mentioning, yes toshiro has great promise and potential, but he is still young and not fully mastered his bankai. His power is still growing. Komomura has lost every fight except the whale dude, soi-fong could not defeat Barragan even with Hachhi's help, and Mayuri only defeated the 8th espada, not very impressive.
Now all of this debating may prove fruitless since there has been a 17 month time skip and some of these characters have more than likely closed the gaps separating them from the elder captains. Some of them may have improved greatly. I hope this is a fair list that people could agree on more to an extent.
Last edited by gcreech; August 09, 2012 at 04:04 PM.
Your other groups look balanced enough. But I have to disagree that Soifon is in Tier V, because he couldn't defeat Barragan. Her speed is maybe only inferior to of Yoruichi's amongst the entire captain class Shinigami and even she wasn't able to comprehend the time-managing skill of Barragan and was out-sped. So, yes, she may not be as strong as Tier 4 or above, but had Barrahgan took his opponents for serious, he'd have any captain dead. In my opinion, he was the only Espada that would even stand a chance against Aizen if they were to battle. Also, when Yoruichi battled Soifon in SS arc, it was evident that Soifon clearly caught up to her for quite a bit. Maybe her lack of resolve was why she lost her cool in that fight. In other words, I'm trying to say that Yoruichi cannot be Tier II, when someone who battled her on equal footing and showed quite the same skills is Tier V.
Then again, we are basing these rankings on a combine of references we got and our personal opinions, and I appreciate the effort you put in (=
@ Hakuteiken thank you, that's nice to hear. and you are right about Ryuuken, i wasn't thinking about the thread when I listed Him.
Well I understood Yourichi's fight as she had not fought in over 100 years and was rusty, also I think she didn't want to hurt Soi Fong cause of how much she cared for her. However I do agree that Soi-fong is not weak, just I'm not too sure where else to place her. I honestly think all the captains are exceptional to a degree. I don't think Yourichi's first fight with Soi-Fong showcased her real abilities properly. (just like Hitasguya's against Luppi)
Anyways it's just a gut feeling regarding Yourichi, Urahara, Tessai, and Isshin. You know how like in some Shonen anime the writer saves the strongest for last? Or the most important characters for later? It's like that. They were the last line of defense against Aizen and I thought there was significance in that.
Yourichi apart from Yama may be the fastest character and best in hand-to hand combat. Also she has a shikai and bankai that she has not had to rely on yet. Oh and She used Shunko and actually landed a powerful punch on Aizen during the fight that he didnt even see coming. I thought that was awesome.
Urahara has intellect beyond anyone else, and is an EXTREMELY analytical fighter. He too has not ever truly gone all out. Also he did manage to trick Aizen several times, even placed traps and seals that he was unaware of. He's very versatile. OH and he's a genius like Toushirou and Gin. So far the genius's have been highly regarded. Urahara learned/mastered Bankai in just 3 days. Something they are hinting at that will make him a beast. I also think there is symbolism in him being Ichigo's first mentor and teacher.
Tessai is honestly probably ABOVE Aizen and Yamamoto in Kido prowess. Though that's only speculation. He knows forbidden kido like Time freezing, and teleportation. He was clearly said to be captain class and also has not once yet had to join the fray, I think he will be a beast when he does. Also if you read the pendulum arc again, notice that Shunsui commented on the fact if Tessai was getting involved in the investigation then it must be a big deal. I took that as people don't wanna mess with Tessai. Also consider that Hacchi killed Barragan by himself, regardless of how he did it. He was only a Lieutenant to Tessai. and in 100 years I'm sure that Hacchi's hollow powers only barely help close the huge gap between him and Tessai. I mean notice how Lisa was still so much weaker than Shunsui after the 100 years they were apart, I think the same is true of Hacchi and Tessai.
Isshin really won't take as much to say anything about. We have only seen him fight Aizen in a 1-1 ans he held his own. Think about that. How crazy is that? When Gin commented on Aizen's strength saying his illusions were not his only source of strengths, and that Aizen was just plain strong. Aizen mastered all 4 basic forms of SHINIGAMI COMBAT. He defeated Love, Rose, Komomura and Lisa with out illusions. He cut through Komomura's Bankai like it was butter. AND ISSHIN FOUGHT HIM IN A 1-1 WITHOUT LOSING! HE pushed Aizen back several times and they appeared even until Aizen started transforming. His Getsuga Tenshou was stronger in it's unreleased form than Ichigo's in Bankai with Hollow mask on.
well anyways may you agree or disagree, but I thought I would reply and tell you why I feel that way. Like I said with those 4 it's nothing but pure speculation and a little hype.
Last edited by gcreech; August 10, 2012 at 01:07 PM.
ichigo tier :
ichigo post dangai
god tier :
/urahara(this is bleach's tobi....he holds back a lot , because he isnt interested but would rather watch until he feels like using his hax abilities .he could put a seal inside a seal inside a seal inside a hado inside a kido that would kill yamamoto when he goes to sleep then dream of urahara laughing at him)
high tier :
shingi ,senion captains
middle tier :
vizard captains , kenpachi
everyone exept .................
komamura tier :
1) Aizen Souske - His strength, intelligence, and tactical ability is unmatched. He doesn't even need a Bankai.
2) Yamamoto - He is the supreme captain after all.
3) Ichimaru Gin - Brilliant and cunning fellow.
4) Ukitake Juushirou - I believe sickness mars his performance a lot.
5) Byakuya Kuchki - Seems like a cool-minded, tactical captain with a great bankai.