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---------- Post added at 12:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------
Unohana: I'm better at Zanjutsu than anyone but you.
Zaraki: But I'm just a kid from Rukongai who randomly hacks and slashes. I don't know any Zanjutsu lol.
It makes more sense if Unohan meant she would not lose to anyone in battle except Zaraki. After all that's what Zaraki did. He was beating her in battle and he obviously didn't use any Zanjutsu. He had no military training. He was just a kid.
I see it differently. I don't think Yama could defeat Unohana in battle so he asked her to join the Gotei 13 because it would present her with the oppurtunities she was looking for. Unohana was looking for tough opponents to fight. She would obviously have a greater chance of finding tough opponents when she joined a military compared to when she was a wandering thief.
The problem with the view you presented is that it makes Unohana a walking contradiction. She developed this boredom because she was so strong. She said so herself she was bored of the blade. Why would this happen if Yama was stronger than her? If Yama was stronger than her then she wouldn't have grown bored of the blade. She said so herself when a strong person finds another strong person they either raise them or rival them. That's why she liked Zaraki so much. If Yama was indeed her superior why didn't she see any of that in him? She makes no exception of Yama so I don't see why I should either.
Besides we don't know if Yama and Unohana fought in the past but if they did then it's likely that Unohana was the victor. The reason is because she clearly said Zaraki gave her the only wound she ever had. If Yama fought her and couldn't give her a single wound despite the destructive nature of his powers I'm inclined to believe that he lost to her in battle. Besides before she joined the Gotei 13 Unohana was the worst criminal in SS. If she was looking for someone to fight then why didn't she just go and fight Yama? All she had to do was break into his dojo and fight him. However from the evidence so far it seems Unohana would have most likely won in any encounter she may have had with Yama in the past.
I think most people look at power levels wrong in Bleach. Most of them are going around comparing what X can do against Y etc. However I think that way of reasoning is fundamentally flawed for 2 reasons:
1. It's quite subjective.
2. Kubo doesn't really seem to put much thought at all into it.
The only time I think Kubo actually cares about power is when it relates to characterisation. So pretty much the only way of being sure about how a character is by using the character statements. Other than the occasional retcons, character statements are usually more consistent than feats. Unohana has to be stronger than Yama in order for her character to make sense. The same cannot be said of Yama though.
Another example is how Aizen as good as admitted in FKT that his Shunpo, Kido, Hakuda and Hoho were better than Yamas but a lot of interpretations of the 'feats of strength' say otherwise. However in the end we have to go for what Kubo is saying and since he's saying Aizen's shinigami combat abilities > Yamas then we have to just accept it.
Placing Unohana above Yama doesn't necessarily mean that Zaraki was stronger than him as well. Do note that Bleach doesn't work with ABC logic (A beats B, B beats C so A can beat B and C).
For example Shunsui could defeat Starkk and was most likely an overall stonger Shinigami than Hacchi. However I doubt Shunsui would be able to defeat Barragan due to the nature of his powers. But we know that Hacchi would be able to defeat Barragan.
I think what enabled Unohana to be more powerful than Yama was her Bankai. Like I said in my previous post she would melt his skin off even if they're coated in the flames of the sun. Zaraki however doesn't have a power like that (though he may get it since he's going to learn Bankai). So it's very possible Unohana > Yama, Yama > Zaraki and Zaraki > Unohana.
Sure we don't know how Unohana would get past all of Yama's tricks but we can give her the benefit of doubt because she had no reason to be lying. After all it's not like Kubo is going to bother proving exactly how Unohana would be able to get past all of Yama's feats and win.
Last edited by DraMas26; March 03, 2013 at 08:51 PM.
I believe Zaraki is now the strongest captain in the Gotei. Someone like Shunsui still has the skill and technique to rival his power but over all he will be the most key weapon for them in the second round of the war.
I think Yamamoto was much stronger than Unohana, I guess you can't lead a bunch of thugs with an iron fist if your power doesn't outweigh their own. Fighting Yamamoto wasn't an option for Unohana because she would have gotten reduced to ashes pretty quickly and it wasn't the kind of fight Unohana seeked, she was first and foremost a swordswoman who enjoyed clashing swords. It was strongly hinted that Yamamoto was an unstoppable demon at the time who dealed the greatest amount of damage to the quincies 1000 years ago, he was the person whom the big bads came up with a plan against. Even Ukitake said there was no one to replace Yamamoto after the Arrancar arc, Zaraki already had the title of Kenpachi, the strongest warrior, at that time. IMHO the context Unohana uses "the strongest" is different, it's more like Nnoitra's claim of him being the strongest espada in the sense that he was, according to him, their best swordsman.
P.S. Aizen never said his shinigami skills surpassed everybody else's, he merely reached a point where they seemingly weren't getting any better, he was close to the limits of his own potential. For example, he failed to cast hado 90 with its full power, there are people like Tessai, Yamamoto or Urahara who seem to be better than him when it comes to kido.
Well, Captain-Commander clearly stated it to Aizen. He was holding that CC-position not for show off. He was holding it for the fact that there was no one born in the last millennium to replace him. Before that? No need to extend in that direction, since he was already the strongest of his time. Bach also said that he was the leader of the bloodthirsty original Gotei 13. Now, how else could those bloodthirsty gangsters be convinced to take orders from someone who they are superior to? I fail to see this in Unohana's character, either.
And not necessarily. Captain-Commander also fought Sasakibe and Sasakibe didn't have any visible wounds. Probably, that wound wasn't the only time Unohana took a blow, but it was the only one that could leave its mark visible even after so many years. Like the one Sasakibe left on Captain-Commander's forehead, I mean.
Captain-Commander was said to have mastered the Shinigami arts, but estimating a drop off due to aging, Aizen could be above him. Then again, it was a Shikai vs Shikai battle, so, tough to call it. Aizen outwitted him, that much could be said, though.
Of course, ABC logic doesn't work generally, but if those fighters use the same styles, it does. The problem for me is I just didn't get what Unohana's Bankai did. Was it an acid that effected the whole area? Was it a hallucination or something like that? Just what was it? How does it work? Is Unohana with Bankai invincible?
Agreed with your Kyouraku-Starkk-Barragan assessment (On a side note, I've always thought that #2 was just Aizen's way of mocking the Hueco Mundo's King and Barragan was originally the strongest).
At least, he could make Unohana a bit more explanatory about her powers, though.
Have to agree with others, Unohana almost certainly ranked below Yama, and probably by a good margin. When she said she was stronger than anyone but Zaraki, I doubt that incuded Yama. His status in SS is such that when anyone even talks about power he's likely excluded from the equation. But even if not, it's notable that Unohana made that statement after he was dead and gone.
You make an interesting point about the scars, but Yama has been fighting wars since long before there was a 4th Division to heal everyone. Unohana had the benefit of he Kaido, but at the time she wasn't sharing it. Plus, and this is just supposition, but I've always thought Yama would be the type of man to keep his wounds and bear each one as a lesson/badge of honour.
When Shunsui was reading Unohana's history, it said that "before Yama brought his power, she was SS's worst criminal". For whatever reason, they never encountered one another. As soon as they did, her slaughter ceased. If Yama had been weaker than her, surely she would have just killed him and moved on. As others have said, he can't have ruled over the Divisions if he was anything but the strongest, especially given that they were a pack of bloodthirsty killers at the beginning. The reason she never challenged him despite being starved for a good fight is likely the same reason Zaraki never challenged him. He is the authority and fighting him simply isn't done because he's that much stronger.
As for the effectiveness of her Bankai, I'm of the impression that the flesh dissolving was just a vision of Zaraki's and that it doesn't actually do that. But that's another discussion, so assuming that is what it does, it still loses to Zanka no Tachi, imo. Yama wasn't just coated in fire, he was surface of the sun hot. The only thing I could see happening is Minazuki's fluids evaporating before they even touch him, just like Royd/Bach's blade was disintegrated by the sheer heat.
Well, from what we saw from unohana her standard swordsmanship would actually exceed the normal power exhibited by a captains bankai. In that light she would perhaps match yamamoto in a standard physical fight although even that seems to be a bit of a stretch IMO. Yamamoto can seemingly match the power of a bankai with his bare hands after all, wonderweiss is a testament to that.
As for unohana's bankai, the issue here is that she is a pure swordsman. She enjoyed fighting only with swords and every ounce of her being was devoted to that idea to the point that her healing was meant to keep her on the battlefield rather than help others. How can a bankai she would enjoy using in battle be anything other than something which would enhance her melee fighting somehow? Zaraki disolving had to do with his dialogue at the time however the actual effect of minazuki necessarily has to be something which unohana would enjoy using in the single most important battle of her life. IMO the effect of unohana's blood infused bankai is an exponential increase in attack power, one befitting the first kenpachi on her final moments. Would unohana have felt any sort of satisfaction otherwise? Perhaps a second reason for her healing was to be able to use her bankai more efficiently in battle. If it uses her own blood to make the blade stronger then healing and regeneration would be key to maximizing its use.
Too much to be bother quoting but like many I think you guys are too focused on Yama.
Like I said earlier if Yama was already so much more powerful than Unohana why did she develop her boredom? Why did she develop that loneliness complex that Aizen and Starkk had as well? Why did she make no mention of Yama? If Yama was so powerful then why didn't he have it instead?
Alright first you don't need to be the most powerful to be the leader. That's illogical because being a leader is about much more than power. The reason why Yama was the leader was because he was responsible and influential. It wasn't just power. I think people so much into Yama's power that they forget everything else about him. Yama became the leader because he had the right character. I don't see Unohana bothering to do paperwork or organising meetings.
What you need to run a bunch of savages is to have the majority support. Even if Unohana was individually the strongest I doubt she could defeat Yama + 11 other captains who supported him. Don't forget Unohana was the worst criminal in SS. She should have been locked up in Muken. Giving her a Captain position was a privelage more than a right. Obviously nobody would want her as leader and I doubt Unohana would even be interested in CC.
Like I said earlier it was never stated Yama was the strongest Shinigami by anyone unlike Unohana who outright admitted it. The Quincies feared Yama not just because he had a powerful Bankai but because he was the most suited to being the leader of the Shinigami. Leadership =/= Just power. Only a dictator thinks like that. Ukitake said nobody could replace Yama because Yama was the one who set up the Gotei and led it since its inception. He was able to do this due to his leadership qualities (he was already leader of the Genju school earlier). He could translate this experience into military leadership. What could Unohana do? What leadership qualities did she have? None as far as we know so she obviously could not be an ideal replacement for Yama.
And like I said earlier how can Unohana be referring to swordsmanship when she said she was the strongest? She knew 8000 styles of swordsmanship and Kidpachi knew zilch. There's no way Kidpachi's swordsmanship was better than hers. He was stronger than her because his raw strength and reiatsu was enough to defeat her in battle. Anything else is just a contradiction.
Aizen said that his Shinigami abilities were above everyone else in SS:
What most people don't understand is what Aizen meant by 'capacity'. Aizen uses the word 'capacity' twice:Quote:
1. Aizen says his capacity is increasing.
2. Aizen said it already held no equal in SS.
So in order to understand what Aizen meant by 'capacity' you have to look at what increased. What increased was Aizen's Shunpo, Hakuda, Kido and Hoho so what Aizen meant was that his Shunpo, Hakuda, Hoho and Kido were better than everyone else's in SS. I've seen people say he was referring to KS and/or his intelligence but that is definitely false becasue Aizen's intelligence and Zanpukto were not enhanced in any way, shape or form.
This fits because Aizen himself admitted that Urahara was more intelligent than him. He also admitted that Yama had the most powerful Zanpukto. KS didn't grant Aizen any firepower so it makes sense.
I've seen people say Yama and Urahara's kido was better than Aizens but they're taking too many liberties with their interpretation. Urahara's Haod 91 didn't do a thing to Aizen. We don't even know if he conjured it properly or not because Aizen sneaks right up to Urahara doesn't have time to talk. Yama's Haod 96 barely left any scratches on Aizen. Sure he probably had trouble casting it because he was badly injured but that does not mean Yama would be able to fully conjure it if he had used it when he was healthy. Don't forget that Hado 96 is a forbidden kido so I doubt Yama had much time to practice with it either. FKT may have been the first time he ever used it.
So according to Aizen's own words he was already unbeatable in SS in terms of his shinigami abilities. This is why he created WW. The only way Aizen could have lsot ot Yama was through RJ. That's why Aizen was so arrogant to Yama throughout the entire battle. Even if Yama had attacked Aizen, Aizen still would have won. The reason why Aizen let WW handle Yama is probably because:
1. WW had no thought or reason and had already started fighting Yama thus Aizen could not stop him fromfighting Yama without cutting him down himself. But why bother doing that if Yama was going to do it eventually? Might as well let Yama do the dirty work.
2. Aizen was always planning to kill Yama and the destructive capacity of RJ was better than anything he could do so using Yama's Zanpukto against him was an easier but not necessary means to killing Yama.
What Yama was referring to by his 'I've been CC because nobody born in the last 1000 year's power could rival me' was not entirely 'I am the leader because I am the most powerful'. If it was just that then he would have just said it. What Yama was referring was the shifting perspectives of gneerations. Every generation has a different idea of what does and does not make a good leader. Look at Aizen. Look at the junior captains compared ot the older ones. Look at the perspectives of Rukia's execution during the SS arc. While there's no definite answer to what is right and what is wrong, in a military organisation like the Gotei 13 it's likely that people will follow someone whose leadership qualities are high and whose power is great. Nobody was better suited to be CC than Yama because he was the founder.
If anyone had to replace him they not only needed leadership attributes, they also needed power which could rival his. Unohana had the pwoer but she didn't have the leadership skills. She probably knew Yama was best suited for leader anyway. While Aizen had already surpassed Yama in most shinigami arts, he would still lose to him because KS granted him no additional firepower while RJ granted Yama a tonne.
It's extremely unlikely that what we saw with Unohana was metaphorical. She uses the literal word for 'melting' in Japanese. She also said to Kenpachi that she was going to kill him a thousand times and that play time is over. I fail to see how she would be doing this with illusions. What we saw was most likely literal and then Unohana healed Zaraki to break off his last shackle.
Unohana was speaking in the past tense not the present. She was referring how she used to go around looking for a worthy opponent ot fight. When she joined the 4th division she stopped looking for fighters since she had found Zaraki. She clearly said she had 'grown bored of the sword' and that 'no man could make her happy' except Zaraki. Sure this would mean that Zaraki's raw power and physical strength surpassed Yama but in the novel he could block level 90 kidos using only his reiatsu so I don't find it implausible for him to be that broken.
Not sure why one of you said there was no 4th division back in the first generation. I thought it was obvious Kirijn was the original 4th division captain since he himself said he taught Unohana her healing techniques. Besides if Unohana had recieved any scars before why didn't she carry them around with her. I mean she was bigger savage then Yama and was looking for battle. She even laid the foundations for what a 11th division captain should be like.
And like I said earlier, what are the chances of Unohana being able to have a good fight? As a criminal or as a military member? If Yama came up toher and made her an offer she could not refuse then I don't see why she would have killed him. Other than the fact that most of the other Captains already acknowledged Yama, Unohana was powerful but she wasn't perfect. Like only a few Shinigami seemingly know how to open a Garganta so if Unohana would ever wanted to go to HM she would have had a heard time. Joining the Gotei would have increased her chances of fighting a worthy opponent. I'm not sure where the idea of Unohana's slaughter ceasing when Yama recruited her came from. Bach himself said that the original Gotei were a bunch of savages. I think Unohana continued her slaughter when she was in the Gotei. The only difference was she now had a superior.
Zaraki was shackled the entire time so that's why he never fought Yama. Don't forget he still hasn't reached his full potential because he's still going to learn Bankai most likely. Usin anything Zaraki has done up till this point is moot because he was shackled the netire time. But what you must bear in mind was that even Yama feared Zaraki's power. He stopped training him after one day and before anyone makes the excuse of 'he didn't want Zaraki to wreck things up' let me tell you that answer is illogical. Yama was the one who was training Zaraki. Yama was the one Zaraki would be with after his training was complete. Yama stopped training Zaraki because Zaraki at full power can rival him and potentially defeat him as well. If Yama fought a fully powered Zaraki he might even have lost. That's why Yama stopped training him. After all even if Zaraki went on a revolt Yama could easily have stopped him unless Yama himself was not confident his power could stop Zaraki's. Besides the chances of Zaraki going on a revolt seem to be pretty slim anyway but Yama still decided to stop teaching him after 1 day.
You're forgetting one thing. Unohana's Bankai seemingly melts her opponent's skin off and Yama's skin is upon which his flames ignite. If Yama's skin would melt off so would his flames as well. It's arguable that he would even be able to sustain the flames of Zanka No Tachi because I doubt melted skin is a good conductor of heat. Yama probably had those flames due ot the nature of his reiatsu but his reiatsu would drop to zero if he was dying so yeah I still see Unohana winning.
Above all this I think Kubo planned it out from the start to have Unohana bestronger than Yama for a specific reason: to help defeat Zanka No Tachi Juha. Don't forget that Juha still had Yama's Bankai so the Gotei needs a way of getting past it. Even fi Mayuri develops a way to return the Bankais to the Shinigami it doesn't matter because Yama is dead. Kubo had Juha steal Yama's Bankai and kill him. That itself can be used as evidence that Yama's Bankai is not as invincible as it seems. I doubt Mayuri/Urahara are going to come up with a gizmo that can stop Yama's Bankai. I think it's more likely that there's a Bankai which counters Zanka No Tachi and I think that Bankai is Minazuki. A RG may have a suitable Bankai but they made it clear they weren't going ot interfere till Bach reaches the Palace. It makes sense to me.
After Yama has died Unohana starts claiming she was the strongest Shinigami. Kirijn told her that she needs to do something else. Kirijn said so himself that the Gotei's duty was to protect SS and they were not going to help them. Why would he say that if the Gotei stood no chance of getting past Zanka No Tachi? Above all this Yama specifically told Unohana to not leave the 4th division during the first invasion. I think the reason he said that was to ensure that nothing happened to her Bankai. Bear in mind that Yama was planning ot use his Bankai all along. First he had the Junior captains test the medallions then he made a hypothesis based on what he heard about Ichigo. In hindsight Yama's decision was very stupid but it would look less rash if he had a backup plan. If Unohana had a Bankai which could counter his and if Mayuri/Urahara had found a way to get past the medallions then the Shinigami would still be able to beat Juha even if he has Zanka No Tachi. If Yama had no backup plan then he was pretty much giving Juha the strongest Bankai for free. From what we've seen of Unohana's Bankai I do think it has the potential to coutner Zanka No Tachi.
---------- Post added at 04:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 AM ----------
Besides all this don't you think it's strange that Kenpachi is being metaphorical? Last time I checked he wasn't much of a philosophical thinker that imagined his skin as chains etc. I doubt he even has much of an imagination.
You may be right about Unohana not being fully satisfied by her Bankai but you're forgetting that a lot of Shinigami have Bankais which they don't like because it reflects a side of them they don't like revealing e.g. Sui-Feng, Yama.
Last edited by DraMas26; March 04, 2013 at 12:39 PM.
3. Yamamoto Genryusai (Deceased)
Way to take things out of context. Even in death, Bleach Asylum and it's tendency to read backwards keeps haunting me. Did his reiatsu or strength increase? No, it doesn't make sense because Kenpachi was simply becoming better at fighting and exploiting weaknesses, much like Unohana was doing.
Kenpachi sucked at the beginning of the fight, like he always does, because he used to throw self preservation out of the window. Unohana said that Kenpachi's old self wouldn't allow her to cut him with such ease. Then look at how Kenpachi said that it was time to fight out of instinct and how he was reacting to the sword out of reflex instead of trying to follow it. Then take into account that this is all about fighting with swords (is that such a difficult concept to understand?) and that both are demons of the sword, it means that Kenpachi is the "strongest" swordsman. He doesn't need to learn Kendo or whatever because it's not necessary if he has the reflexes and mastery of the sword from fighting so much.
Unoahana at first was just simply using every opportunity Kenpachi allowed her, later he became so good at dodging and counter attacking that he began cutting her more often. It's time that you stop thinking with your biceps and consider that maybe, just maybe, it was a sword fight between two experienced sword fighters. I'd like to see Unoahana "The Strongest" fight a Kido master or a strength oriented fighter. She's the strongest because she's the best with a sword, or was, in a universe where almost everybody fights with a sword.
Kenpachi could beat Yamamoto at his full power, but I dunno. We deifnitely know he can beat Unohana and almost any other captain if given the chance to go all out. Aizen, I'm not sure if he's the strongest without that thing he got, but he definitely seems to be pretty strong.
I don't think Kenpachi can defeat Kyouraku with his current power level. That depends on how the fight shapes up. If it turns into a duel, yeah, he has the upper hand, but Kyouraku won't be giving him that chance, anyway.
Will he change tactics and go all out whenever possible, just to get a little thrill? As Unuhana said to her self, Zaraki won't find much enjoyment in fighting any more now.
I like to think it goes similar to this:
- He's too damn powerful now compared to his old self, which likely diminish his possible fun opponents dramatically.
- He's talking to his Zanpaktou, which might actually change the way of his "thinking" somewhat, like Unuhana said to Kenpachi, "You finally got your partner".
- He'll get so bored with fights, that he might as well just go for the straight kill, and not bother. He needs to find other enjoyments in life, or much stronger opponents.
- In fact, he may become much more of an tactician and technique user now, which could increase his "fun". Zaraki clearly ain't stupid, it's just another restraint he's putting on himself, and as the theme goes, he has to loose these restraints, which would mean his letting his intelligence get free space.
- I think he'll develop in similar ways Unuhana did after all these outcomes from this training, I don't think she learned all those sword styles just for the heck of it, but more like a way to have fun when she couldn't find people fight on equal terms.
- Ironically learning more techniques and tactics would make one stronger, thus fewer people able to fight, but I'd go down this road too if I were Zaraki now, since he can't do the opposite of Unuhana anymore (diminishing his strength to have fun, but make it as strong as possible to have at least "some" fun).
Side note: I just doubt Unuhana is dead, the way her last frames was given, was just too wrong to give her an epic death, hell it wasn't even decent, yet alone made any real impact, aside for the Zaraki development.
I wouldn't be surprised if we saw her waking up from Isane healing her in a few chapters
If all this turns out true, then Zaraki might be quite a different captain soon, but that is just a hunch and theory
Last edited by Quantized; March 04, 2013 at 05:42 PM.