Doesn't that quote by Aizen throw Unohana's words into question though? He also claimed he was unsurpassed within Soul Society. Why believe Unohana and not him?
Anyway, being a leader is indeed about more than raw power, but just look at the structure of every organisation we've come across. Aizen led the Espada because he was stronger than them. They were allowed to direct lesser Arrancar because they were stronger. Each Captain is the strongest member of their respective division. Juha Bach is the strongest of his group. For Yama not to be the strongest man in the Gotei 13 when his power has so consistently been presented as above and beyond everyone else seems like a stretch. I have a hard time the 1st generation Captains of the Divisions would be willing to follow him if he weren't strong enough to keep them in line, but admittedly I can't say for certain without ever having seen them.
My point about there being no 4th Division was that it would explain Yama's abundance of scars. You mentioned the scars and it got me thinking about why he would have so many if he were stronger. Prior to forming the Divisions, he might not have had such easy access to healers, plus as I mentioned, he's the sort of man to bear his scars (e.g. his missing arm).
But whilst Unohana has one line, which itself is kind of shaky given the poetic nature of that entire chapter, Yama is the one with feats suggesting his superiority. He's the one whose power nearly blew up a multi-kilometre square area when detonated in Wonderweiss (a power he was able to contain with his own body), and whose Bankai threatened to destroy SS by it's mere use.
I'd question Aizen's every word after hogyoku started to change him, he was clearly not in his right mind. He didn't even realize Ichigo's power far outweighed his own until it was too late. Both Aizen and Bach skipped Unohana and other captains, and took special measures against Yamamoto. Aizen didn't consider Unohana a threat and Unohana implied that she didn't have the means to defeat Aizen when she was going to FKT with Ichigo. On the other hand, Yamamoto defeated an espada level arrancar with his bare hands and was sure that he could take on Aizen without a zanpakuto. I'm under the impression that it's because he sensed Aizen's true power from the reiatsu of the zanpakuto in his stomach. Whether he was right or wrong is the subject of another debate.
As NoOneInParticular said, Aizen, Bach, captains are all the strongest members of the groups they rule over. I doubt it'll be an exception for Yamamoto, especially after it was revealed that his zanpakuto was the strongest zanpakuto in existence. It was him who was said to be an unstoppable demon who caused terror in SS 1000 years ago. He was the chief actor in the defeat of quincies and it was him whom Bach considered the main enemy. To be honest, I don't see Unohana being stronger than Yamamoto at this point. I take Unohana's words as being the most skillful fighter in a sword fight but it doesn't mean much against the devastating firepower of RJ.
As a side note, I think it'll be Ichigo who will fight and defeat Bach, or perhaps it'll be a teamwork with Kenpachi. If Kenpachi masters his bankai, IMHO it's possible that he can surpass even Yamamoto provided that his zanpakuto has useful abilities. At the moment, I'm not quite sure he's stronger than Shunsui considering that Shunsui's bankai was hinted by Kubo to be powerful enough to take on even Aizen. This is how I'd rank them (excluding Urahara and Isshin):
I think Kenpachi could, though. He has amazing tanking power, and his strength is pretty good. Plus, he fights out of enjoyment, which makes him dangerous.
Forgot about Shunsuui though. I'd probably put him near 2 or 3. Below Kenpachi but mixed whether below or above Aizen.
Well, head on attacks may not work, but who said that Kyouraku would fight that way? Besides, Kyouraku fights for defeating his opponent, not for enjoyment and he can do anything to finish off his opponent, not upholding a code of honor or something in battle to a greater extent. That makes him even more dangerous.
Link? I don't remember it being said that was Yamamoto. how'd he get rid of the demon in him?
What made Aizen so fearsome was that the Gotei 13 didn't know his true power. Aizen himself said that the Aizen they knew was only an illusion. Aizen was always hiding his full potential. Even in TBTP Tessai was surprised by how good Aizen's kido was. Now Aizen was planning a rebellion against the Gotei 13 for 100+ years so bare minimum he should have known what each Captain would be capable of (He probably stole the info from Mayuri's computer or sth). Thus Aizen's word is concrete.
When Unohana said she was stronger than anyone she should have not been including Aizen for a simple reason: she never knew how powerful he was. The only time she witnessed Aizen's strength was in FKT but Aizen didn't even use his Bankai. Obviously she doesn't know his limits but Aizen knew her limits all along so using the context of the situation we can conclude that Aizen's Zanjutsu was better than Unohanas.
Regarding the structure of organisations, you missed one organisation: the Fullbringers. I think it was pretty obvious Tsukishima was the strongest Fullbringer due to his haxed ability. He was the only one who a Captain needed to use Bankai against (Ichigo didn't need ot use Bankai against Ginjou from what we saw. He jus went Bankai to get serious after Ginjo tried to mess his mind). However Tsukishima let Ginjo be the leader due to his loyalty to him and something similar could be said of Yama and unohana.
Yeah I know that Kubo hyped up Yama a lot but bear in mind Kubo has a record of hyping up a character to be soo powerful and then say 'wait he/she is not that powerful'. Remember the Espada? They ended up not being as powerful as they were hyped up to be. Kubo did the same thing these recent chapters as well. He had base Unohana dominate eye-patchless Kenpachi. Next chapter he was like but when Kenpachi was a Rukongai kid he could beat Unohana. From a power level standpoint, that's ridiculous. No matter talented you are there is no way Kidpachi should have been stronger than the worst criminal in SS. But Kubo still did it and that's why I think almost all of his power level depictions should be taken with a grain of salt. I don't think Kubo rarely cares about power much unless it relates to characterisation. Other than when the plot dictates that X needs to be stronger than Y, Kubo just seems to draw on a whim.
The problem with your theory is that it's extremely likely there was a healing division in the first generation of the Gotei 13:
Look at the silhouette to Yama's left. That is highly likely to be Krijn. Kirijn himself said he taught Unohana her healing techniques and that itself suggests he was the healing Captain back in the days of the original Gotei 13. Yama's many scars can be used as evidence to suggest he was more vulnerable as Unohana.
Aizen said RJ is the most powerful Zanpukto. There is no question about that. However what Aizen meant was that RJ's offensive ability was greater than that of any other Zanpukto. However there are multiple types of Zanpukto like kido, tactics etc. Not every Zanpukto just grants offensive ability. If a Zanpukto counters Zanka No Tachi then it doesn't mean its offensive power is greater than its. They're just different. The thing is that ZnT's flames exist on Yama's flesh. However if all the flesh melted off then Yama himself would die. This doesn't mean that Minazuki has greater offensive capacity than ZnT. It just means its liquifying ability can render its benefits moot. ZnT is still the best Zanpukto for straight out offense. I mean if you want to destroy a mountain you're not going to be able to do that with Minazuki.
Power in Bleach isn't linear so it shouldn't be interpreted as such.
First it'a not that Aizen didn't know Ichigo was stronger than him. He was waiting for Ichigo to become a transcendent and come face him. However he didn't expect Ichigo to end up on a higher dimension than him so when he realised he could not sense his reiatsu he avoided the obvious answer because he was in denial. He already knew higher deminsion beings could not be sensed by lower dimension beings but he avoided considering that possibility because he didn't want to accept it. It's similar to when Ichigo first used Blut fans were making all these excuses about him using Fullbring or having the ability given to him by the mystery swordsman when the obvious answer was that Ichigo was a Quincy. However the fanbase didn't want Ichigo to be a one of everything and considered it Mary sue for him to be a Quincy as well so they started making all these excuses. In simple terms they were in denial. So was Aizen. It's not that he didn't know but he refused to accept it so he started making all these excuses of Ichigo dumping all his reiatsu in his arm or whatever. It was only after all his lame excuses were proven false did he admit he was in denial. This was an ego problem and not lack of knowledge.
Bach took no special measures against Yama. The Bankai sealing medallions were made for every Bankai user, not just Yama. He treated Yama the same way he treated every other Captain.
Like I said on the previous page, power levels in Bleach don't work with ABC logic. The reason why Aizen took no special measures aginst Unohana was because his abilities nullified hers.
Why did Unohana not use her Bankai in FKT?
Because Aizen could have just KSed Hinamori into walking into her AoE then she would become a skeleton. Aizen could have even used her Bankai's ability against her. Her Bankai was pretty useless aginast Aizen due ot the nature of Aizen's powers.
Why did Unohana not use Kendo against Aizen?
Because she wouldn't know if she were hitting him or Hinamori. Don't forget the Captains had no real plan to counter KS so that's why in the end they opted to keep Aizen busy so Yama could create his bomb.
Unohana's Shikai has no combat ability as far as we know so it would have been useless. Unohana made the right decision to heal. She would have done more harm than good on the battlefield and Aizen didn't plan on killing anyone except Yama.
Thus Aizen's abilies made him stronger than Unohana. Power in Bleach is not linear. It's very plausible that Unohana>Yama, Yama>Aizen and Aizen>Unohana.
Aizen's words straight out contradict that Yama could have defeated him without a Zanpukto. Don't foget: Aizen most likely knew Yama's strength but Yama did not know his.
Besides if Yama was not sure he could defeat Aizen do you think he would have run away? No thats OOC. Even if Yama wasn't confident he could defeat Aizen he would have fought him anyway. Yama trying to fight Aizen is in no way proof he would have won.
However the way Aizen himself stated he held no equal in terms of Shinigami abilities in all of SS (let's not forget he called Yama 'the history of SS') and the way Aizen was calm and collected throughout his entire encounter with Yama suggested he would have won. Don't forget WW has no thought or reason. There was no guarantee that he was going to fight Yama and that Yama would have killed him. Suppose WW would have sealed RJ then gone away. Then what? What would Aizen's plan be? He'll defeat Yama himself because in terms of Shinigami he has already surpassed Yama. Even Ichigo himself, after reading Aizen's heart, said that Aizen was lonely because he could not find an equal. Thus Yama's shinigami arts cannot be above Aizen otherwise it would make Aizen a walking contradiction.
Like I said before having the Zanpukto with the best offensive ability does not make you the strongest Shinigami. There can be a different type of Zanpukto that can counter it.
This is what Bach says about Yama:
What Bach is saying is that Yama was a war criminal. Everything Bach is saying is related to warfare. Yama made savages members of the military. He did whatever it took to win. He doesn't say Yama was the strongest at any point in time.Quote:
This is what Shunsui says about Unohana:
Unohana wasn't just a war criminal. She was a criminal altogther. Shunsui himself said she was the most diabolical person to ever exist in SS thus she was a bigger demon than Yama.Quote:
Yama said in the flashback that he was a monster in SS who came and made things worse. A lot of people interpret this to mean that he was the worst person in SS but that is false according to what Shunsui said. Unohana was a lot worse. What made Yama so bad was because he did not punish Unohana. She was the worst criminal in SS and what did he do? He made her a captain. He gave her a high position in the military. He probably let her continue her slaughter as long as she worked in the Gotei. That's what made Yama so bad. It wasn't his power but rather his decision making.
Once again power in Bleach is not linear. Just because Bach made the effort to kill Yama does not mean he is the strongest. Yama's Zanpukto has the most offence and that offence may even be more than Bach can handle. However how do you know that Bach doesn't already have an ability that can counter Minazuki's effect? Don't forget that we never saw what Bach was fully capable of. Besides like I said earlier Yama is influential and was the morale of the Gotei 13 because he was more than just a power house. He was their leader since inception so obviously his death would have a greater impact than Unohanas.
Yes we all know Ichigo is going to defeat Juha in the end but don't forget that it's unlikely the Gotei 13 expects Ichigo to defeat Juha. Don't forget Juha now has Zanka No Tachi and so in order to defeat him the Gotei 13 has to get past Zank No Tachi. If there really was no Bankai that could counter ZnT then how is the Gotei 13 expecting any chance of thwarting another VR invasion. Kirijn made it clear that the RG weren't going to help until Bach reached the Palace. He said so himself that it was the Gotei 13's duty to protect SS. So how are they going ot protect it if Juha now has an invincible Bankai that cannot be countered by anyone?
IMO the most obvious answer at this point is that Unohana is going to counter ZnT. I mean Kirijn told her she needs to be doing something else. Unohana respects Yama's strength but sitll claimed she was the strongest. All they need is a way to disable the medallions than Unohana can use her Bankai to stop Juha from using ZnT. After all Yama specifically told Unohana to remain in the 4th Division during the entire first invasion. By doing so he made the chances of her Bankai being stolen 0% and we know Yama was planning to risk going Bankai all along. This really isn't too difficult to put together.
Last edited by DraMas26; March 05, 2013 at 06:44 AM.
but does he even count? I think he's only ever been a captain commander, never a captain. Wasn't he the founder of Gotei 13?
Well, I still fail to see how a criminal would be willing to become a subordinate of another criminal who is weaker than herself, so, unless any further historical reference is brought up in the future, I'll take it as the proof of Captain-Commander's superiority.
Yes, Yamamoto is the founder of Gotei 13 and the Shinigami Academy and he has never been a regular captain but he was still technically a captain. There's also the possibility that there was some sort of military system before Gotei 13 was established, they probably proved useless against the quincies and Yamamoto, as the only man powerful enough to keep them in check, assembled the big bads of SS to fight and defeat them, this is how Gotei 13 was born.
As you pointed out, Aizen was an egoistical man who was in denial. It became apparent when hogyoku affected his body and mind, after that point Aizen was a totally different man, a stereotypical insane villain. And Aizen was full of contradictions, didn't he say Urahara's power rivaled his own? Didn't Isshin outdo him? It seems to me that Aizen lost his common sense when hogyoku made him invincible, the same common sense which urged him not to challenge Yamamoto directly. I guess Aizen wasn't even born the last time Yamamoto went all out, he had no way to know Yamamoto's true power and he admitted twice that Yamamoto turned out to be even stronger than he expected. (when Yamamoto survived the explosion and when he cast hado 96) I don't believe Aizen's shinigami skills were superior to Yamamoto's, at least Yamamoto's hakuda skills seemed to be in a class of his own and I doubt Aizen could pull off a hado 96 without incantation. Tessai is most likely more skillful than either of them at kido.
IMHO just as Driscoll's Kōkō Gonryō Rikyū was much weaker than Sasakibe's, Bach's ZNT won't be as strong as Yamamoto's and it will be manageable. Ichigo, as the main character, has the highest potential in the series, I think his power will be more than enough to deal with Bach's quincy powers and ZNT. If not, Gotei also has Kenpachi who is a powerhouse on his own. Even if Shunsui thinks they can't stop Bach+ZNT, he'll do his best as a soldier and hope for the best. He also knows Ichigo defeated Aizen and he can count on him as an ally. Assuming Unohana isn't dead and acid mist is her bankai (many people think it was a hallucination), I doubt she'll play an important role in the defeat of Bach but of course, it's too early to tell for sure. The acid mist is similar to Mayuri's bankai and I believe they're equally ineffective against a heat that is as hot as the core of the sun and disintegrates everything including a sword, before they can even reach Yamamoto's body.
Until Bach tells us that Unohana was a major problem for quincies in the first quincy war, even more than Yamamoto himself, I'll reserve my judgment about her. Unohana was the worst criminal in SS history but Yamamoto wasn't a criminal, he was a renowned sensei and the founder of Shinigami Academy. Apparently he took drastic measures against quincies to win, sacrificing the lives of his own men when necessary, but he wasn't a criminal in "Kenpachi" sense. He was the man whom Bach escaped from, I sincerely doubt the manga will tell us that Unohana had a bigger role in the grand scheme of events.
We know that the last time Yama used BK was when he fought Bach. However it means that Shunsui can be even younger than Zaraki since Yama said that he used BK long time ago.
However as we know Yama in his fight with Bach was holding back, So he wasnt the demon that he have been before he created G13 and also there is no indication that him going BK during his fight with Bach made the situaltion even worse. On the contrary he defeated Bach. So it means that when Yama was speaking about a monster it wasnt about his fight with Bach, but some other time he used Bk at full power. So this flashback can be from less than 1000 years or some other time like 2000+ years ago. Maybe Yama fought the opreious leader of the shinigami group. Maybe there was an internal comflict....
As for the captains
Zaraki still is hard for me to believe since Unohana healed him= restored his reiatsu and healed his wounds so Zaraki was at full power at all time when Unohana for 3 days was both fighting and healing hm so she want anywhere near her full power.
At first I was going to write a lengthy response, but after seeing this:
Yama: You may be individually the strongest but you cannot defeat all of us by yourself. Join us or go ot Muken.
Unohana: There is nobody to fight in jail so I'll join you. But I'm stronger than you so let me become the CC.
All the other captains: Don't do it Genryusai. She's a criminal who should be locked up in Muken. There is no reason for her to be made CC. You were made CC because you followed the law. She's the very opposite. We would not want to follow someone who should be locked up in Muken. It would hurt our pride.
Yama: Okay you can become CC but that means instead of looking for tough opponents to fight you'll be busy doing things like paperwork, organising meetings-
Unohana: That's boring. I'll just become a regular captain.
You're stretching it a bit. Aizen was only in denial about Ichigo however he was right about everything else. The thing is that everything went just as planned exceopt Ichigo becoming stronger than him so he was in denial about it because Ichigo made things go not just as planned.
Aizen saying Urahara's power rivaled his own was definitely a mistranslation. Ichigo himself said that Aizen was lonely because he could not find an equal. I wonder why Aizen just didn't go and become best buddies with Urahara? What Aizen was actually saying that although they were both not the same anymore (Aizen was evolving and Urahara was a Shinigami) he still had interest in Urahara because Urahara's intellect surpassed his own. Like I said before the hogyouku did not increase Aizen's intelligence so it was one thing that Aizen still found interesting about a Shinigami although he thought he was better than all the rest of them.
Isshin didn't outdo Aizen because he was stronger than him. There's something called fatigue. Aizen had been fighting for ages and Isshin was still fresh. Aizen tanked GT and Yama's Hado 96 (it probably wasn't conjured that well but he still tanked it head on). Isshin himself was very powerful so he only needed a slight advantage to push Aizen to his limit. Isshin himself said that Aizen's movements were getting slower. If Isshin was definitely stronger than Aizen then he wouldn't have made that comment because Aizen's movements should have always been slower than his. However the fact he said it implies that fatigue was getting to Aizen. After all when you're fatigued your movements become slower. Aizen isn't a video game character.
Honestly I don't see why Aizen to see someone's power to know how powerful they are. Just like every other military organisation the capabilities of every captain is probably recorded somewhere. It's like how Mayuri has info on everyone's Bankai. Toshiro knew that Zanka No Tachi would nullify his Bankai but he obviously wasn't around last time Yama used it. How did he know that? He knew it because all he needed to do was analyse recorded information. Most of the top tier captains are close to their limit anyway so it's not like there are going to be any drastic changes to their power any time soon. The lower tier captains are always fighting so their prowess should be general knowledge.
^If Aizen didn't expect Yama to tank that shot then he might have died as well so I don't see how it wasn't expected.Quote:
Sure Yama cast Hado 96 but you're forgetting that Yama likely only barely conjured it. His Hado 96 only gave Aizen a few burns. Ichigo's GT did more damage than that Hado. You're forgetting Hado 96 was a forbidden Kido and FKT war was likely the first time Yama conjured it because it involved sacrificing a limb. According to Bach Yama didn't get his arm back because he didn't want to use Orihime. If that's the case then why didn't he get Unohana to heal it? Most likely because she couldn't heal it either. Yama doesn't have nay other lost limbs so him using that Hado was a last ditch attempt by him to try and take out Aizen.
Aizen said he had no equal in SS in temrs of shinigami abilities. Ichigo said he was lonely because of that. Forget the feats of strength. There are 100+ ways we can interpret them and there's almost no way ot be certain unless the characters' words support it.
I don't know why we're assuming that simply because Driscoll didn't wield Sasakaibe's Bankai's power to its fullest it means all Quincies are the same. After all nobody else made a comment like that. I think the reason why Driscoll not handling his Bankai to the fullest was indirectly given by Bach:
So what Bach was saying that Royd could have stolen Yama's Bankai but he would be unable to wield its power.This is similar to how Driscoll had Sasakaibe's Bankai but he wasn't able to use it to the fullest. Driscoll isn't that strong. His ability just makes him stronger each time he kills someone but in his base form he should be much weaker. It's likely that the only reason Driscoll was able to kill Sasakaibe was because he had killed 100+ soldiers beforehand to power himself up.Quote:
Kubo siad in the Gotei 13 omakes that Unohana would unleash her powers on the battlefield. Training field =/= Battle field and given how pwoerful Unohana is there aren't many Quincy that can deal with her.
No matter how pwoerful the sun is, as long as Kubo twirls his pen anything can happen. Bach sealed the pwoer of the sun in a medallion. Royd's clothes didn't burn off and they didn't have any Blut. His Sankt Zwinger would somehow harm the sun as well. There really is no logic behind it. If Kubo wants something to happen, it'll happen. It's as simple as that.
Having a bigger role isn't just about power. Yama created the organisation that wiped out the Quincy. Even if he got less kills it doesn't take away the fact that as leader he was the biggest player. The leader is the one accountable for whatever his subordinates do. After all in the Winter War he contributed less than a number of captains but he was still the biggest player as he was the leader. Unohana may have been a more powerful warrior than him but that doesn't change the fact that Yama's influence and charisma amongst the Shinigami far outweighed hers.
I don't think other captains would be bothered by a criminal being in the lead, when they are themselves bloodthirsty criminals. And I really doubt back a millennium ago the CC spot meant being busy with paperwork. SS was clearly a different place those days, not as peaceful and organized as today it is.
Well, Aizen said Urahara's power was comparable to or equal to his own, depending on the translation. He also said Yamamoto with RJ could defeat him and Yamamoto said no shinigami in 1000 years had been stronger than him even after he saw what Aizen was capable of. Aizen contradicted himself more than once, to be honest I take what he said after his transformation with a grain of salt. It's not surprising that Aizen was lonely as a child, he couldn't be friends with adults such as CC (or other captains for that matter) who were most likely stronger than him at the time. Yamamoto was heavily injured when he cast hado 96, his reiatsu was very weak but it was still strong enough to force Aizen to run and create an opening for Ichigo. I'm not sure why you think it wasn't conjured properly, it wasn't hinted at all that this is the case, on the contrary Aizen acknowledged Yamamoto did a good job there.
Nnoitra said he was the strongest espada but he was obviously not the strongest, I don't take such comments at face value. Nnoitra was a good melee fighter, so are Unohana and Zaraki, this is the context in which I interpret Unohana's words, i.e. from a swordsmanship point of view. As Hakuteiken said, Yamamoto couldn't put his faith in the loyalty of 11 thugs to keep one of them in check, IMHO being able to lead and control them is a testament to Yamamoto's power. He was a demon, a monster who unleashed hell on quincies, I'm not sure how he could be the most prominent actor in the battle against quincies, someone whom Bach escaped from and plotted to take his revenge on if he was inferior to Unohana in that very same battle.
Anyway, this discussion isn't getting anywhere, I guess we both made our points, time will tell whether Unohana is as powerful as you think or not.