Not to mention he fought with a Bankai that presumably eats up quite a bit of power to use before getting to clash with real Bach. Finally, his entire motivation was gone after getting his Bankai stolen, so, his defeat wasn't inexplicable at all.
I guess you are right is just that I feel that yammamoto is been receiving too much credit which I do not think that he deserve. Same goes for ukitake and shuinsi.
Well, hype versus feats is subject to a quite long debate, but I can say Kubo will probably try to make them live up to that hype, so, Bankai revelations will be fun to keep track of.
What I'm curious if about zaraki sword name and the form of the release. but kubo troll us and probably we will see that on battle no before.
Why would they kill Yama when he was the best person for the job as CC? While Yama hlad been running a school, Unohana had been out slaughtering. He had the leadership skills and Unohana did not. The Captains were murderers but they were not idiots. Some of the RG were probably captains back then and looked at what they ended up doing.
You're forgetting that since every one of them was bloodthristy they would all want to become CC. However Unohana was the worst criminal and should have been locked up in Muken. Their pride would never let them have her appointed as CC. Why would Unohana even want to be CC? She didn't want to lead anyone. She just wanted a good fight.
Every organisation involves doing paperwork, organising meetings or any other task which involves responsibility. It's not fun and games. Unohana laid the foundations of what the 11th Division was like and we know what it's like today. It's a division for fighting where you don't necessarily need ot even graduate from the academy to join. That's what Unohana wanted. Becoming the CC would only be a barrier to her goal.
I don't know where this idea that only the strongest can lead even came from. Even now Kenpachi is going to end up the strongest Shinigami but he wouldn't want to lead either.
A band of powerful killers aren't going to follow the most powerful person but the most powerful leader. If they simply chose their leader based on power alone there organisation would have collapsed and the Quincies would have wiped them out.
Yama never claimed nobody was stronger than him. Yama said nobody born in the past 1000 years had power which could rival his. That does not include people were were born 1000+ years ago like the members of the first generation Gotei 13.
I can't find the RAW for that chapter but if we go with comparable it makes sense because Aizen was in his evolution stages while Urahara was a regular Shinigami so their powers were not realy comparable.
You seem bery convinced that Aizen was contradicting himself. However if that were the case then how come not a single character ever bothered pointing that out? The most they did was comment on how he was off guard but they never meant 'hey Aizen what you said here doesn't make any sense'. The reason they didn't say anything like that is because what Aizen said was true. He did not lose his mind when the Hogyouku evolved him. He simply got a little overconfident with Ichigo but other than that he was still as intelligent as ever. He still knew that Gin was going to kill him and he lured Gin into killing him and helping him to evolve further. He himself knew what he was capable of as he was evolving. He said so himself that low spiritual pressure beings would not be able to stand his power and that's what happened when that man walked up to him and disintegrated. Aizen knew what he was talking about. This is the ugy who's right 99% of the time. If he really was contradicting himself then I don't see why Ichigo, Gin or Urahara never bothered pointing it out. Sure Aizen made mistakes with his statements due ot overconfidence but he did not contradict himself.
No Aizen was stronger than pretty much everyone. If the adults were all stronger than him then why would he become lonely? I mean adults usually are stronger than kids so every kid in SS should feel like Aizen. Besides Aizen eventually became an adult and joined the adults in SS so why did he still do all those bad things to find an equal? Aizen felt lonely because his shinigami arts were above everyone elses. Nobody could relate to him. Nobody at all. If you say Yama was better than him then it contradicts what both Ichigo and Aizen said.
Yama had no idea what Aizen was capable of. He wasn't lying down on and watching Aizen fight in KT. He was busy setting up Enetsu Jigoku. All he knew was that Aizen had enough strength to stick his Zanpukto in him. He had no clue about any of his other abilities. Aizen himself said that the Captain Aizen SS knew was only an illusion. He had the element of knowledge with him. He knew them but they did not know him so his word is great than what anyone in SS claims.
This is what happened when Aizen used Hado 93 with no incantation and only conjured less than 1/3rd of its power:
Aizen left Komamaru profusely bleeding.
This is what happened after Yama allegedly conjured Hado 96 at 100% potential:
Yama gave Aizen...........a couple of burns?
If Yama had conjured Hado 96 at 100% potential when he was on the verge of death then why did it do so little damage to Aizen compared to when Aizen used <33.33% of Hado 90 and gave Komamaru much more severe wounds. The answer is either that Hado 96 is weaker than Hado 93 or Yama did not conjure it to its full potential.
Aizen only said he underestimated Yama. This means that he didn't expect Yama to conjure a level 90 kido when he was near death. However this does not mean that Yama's kido was better than his or that Aizen himself could not do it.
Regarding Nnoitra's words it seems you're referring to how he claimed to have the strongest Hierro:
Whenever Nnoitra says he's the strongest he's referencing his Hierro:
^A thousand nobodies will not be able to getp ast his hierro so nobody would acknowledge his title of having the strongest hierro. To continue to proclaim he has the strongest hierro he needs to fight strong opponents and prove how difficult it is to get past his hierro.
Next time he claims he's the strongest it's the same thing:
After Chad tries to attack him and Tesla stops him Nnoitra asks Tesla why. Then Tesla says 'enemies tend to put all their reiatsu into their final attack. If it were to by some chance-':
What Tesla was saying 'If it were to by some chance penetrate your Hierro then it would hurt you.' Next page Nnoitra says nobody can break me because I'm the strongest Espada i.e. my hierro is the strongest amongst the Espada. He confirmed iti n his battle with Kenpachi. Kenpachi used Kendo to cut through his hierro. I'm not sure where you got his swordsmanship being the best.
Even if you don't agree with that interpretation it still doesn't matter because Nnoitra is an arrogant stuck up guy. He's the same person who got rid of Nel simply because he beleived girls shouldn't be stronger than boys. He would be arrogant enough to just say he was the strongest Espada.
But Unohana is different. She acknowledges Yama's strength. Why would she be taking credit away from him by lying she was stronger than him? Why would Kubo make her say that?
One thing I've noticed about interpreting Bleach is that almost all forms of power level interpretation impair understanding of the manga. Since Kubo doesn't give an ounce of thought into his power levels it ends up contradicting his characterisation but it still stands that characterisation > power. Yama is the epitome of all this. IMO Yama is the most misunderstood character in the entire manga because to a majority of fans he's nothing more than a power machine.
Like for say someone like Bykuya people actually understand him as a person with his values and pride. However the same cannot be said of Yama. From what I've seen it seems that a majority of Yama's fans just cannot see him as a person. All they can see him is as the most powerful warrior in existance. They can't see him as a leader. They can't see him as a man seeking redemption. That can't see his compassion. All they can see is power, power and more power.
This is why the revelations of Yama that came during this arc were ones that almost nobody, even the biggest Yama fans, could predict. How many people could actually use the clues and foreshadowing to tell that Yama wanted to protect and not use humans? How many people could tell that Yama spared those 3 SR who jumped on him? How many could predict Yama was a man seeking redemption? From what I've seen barely any. The problem is that other than the most powerful being in existance, to the majority of fans there really is no other reader-character relationship. If Yama were revealed to not be the strongest shinigami it would destroy the image of Yama in their mind because beyond his flames and ashes hardly anyone bothered looking into Yama so a Yama who was second to some is pretty much a non-existant character in the manga.
Anyway I made my points so I'm done.
Last edited by DraMas26; March 06, 2013 at 06:20 AM.
And what should we base our powerful leader definition on other than strength? Then, Central 46 are definitely out of their mind for not appointing Komamura as the next CC, since he was the most suitable person for the job aside from the power required. What other thing than strength makes Kyouraku a better candidate than Komamura and what other thing than strength made Yamamoto a better one than Unohana?
Just to clarify, I wasn't misquoting you, I was talking about Yamamoto's claim that he was stronger than Aizen. He outright stated that Aizen was naive if he thought he could defeat him and Aizen didn't challenge this claim if you think it means something. And mind you, it happened after Yamamoto lost his zanpakuto, his greatest asset. Was Yamamoto right? Doubtful, I don't take his words at face value either, all men who are powerful are arrogant to some extent. Another thing to point out, IMHO Yamamoto emphasized "1000 years" because he was referring to the time he commanded Gotei 13 as its strongest fighter, it doesn't mean there were shinigami stronger than him before that time. It was mostly thanks to him the quincy threat was thwarted after all. In any case I take the feats and actions of characters into consideration along with their words when I arrive at a conclusion but I guess you already understood it by now.
My point is Yamamoto says something, Aizen says something, Unohana says something, it all boils down to our interpretation at one point unless it's something everybody will agree on. For example, Nnoitra said he was the strongest espada and you don't take these words literally and interpret it as him having the strongest hierro which I agree and I also think he thought it would make him undefeatable in a sword fight, Kenpachi style. This is why I mentioned "swordsmanship", Nnoitra's skills were suited to a sword fight. It's no coincidence that Unohana is a master swordswoman, so is Kenpachi. The 10th Kenpachi, the one before Zaraki Kenpachi was supposedly the strongest in the Gotei 13 because he also bore the title "Kenpachi" but we know that it's not true. Unohana is referring to the title when she says "the strongest", she uses the word in the context of this title.
One last thing I want to point out, I guess I couldn't make myself clear, the level of reiatsu of the user determines the strength of a kido along with skill. Byakuya's hado 33 will be much stronger than Rukia's even if Rukia casts hers with similar skill. Yamamoto having weak reiatsu because of injury certainly affected the power of the spell, if Aizen was in a heavily wounded condition, IMHO his hado 90 would barely scratch Komamura assuming he would be able to cast it in the first place because he certainly didn't expect Yamamoto to pull that off.
I'd rather call myself a fan of Shunsui, not Yamamoto, it's just that I acknowledge the manga portrayed him as a powerful old sensei who was very skillful at shinigami arts. I don't think he was the best at everything, Unohana was probably a better swordswoman and Aizen seemed to be faster than Yamamoto, just my interpretation. Likewise I believe Tessai is likely a better kido user than both Yamamoto and Aizen, to be honest it's hard to believe the best kido user would fail in casting #90 hados without incantation. Yamamoto's hakuda seemed to be the best and the most important of all he had the strongest zanpakuto and possibly the strongest reiatsu to fuel it.
Have you forgotten what Kubo said anout Shunsui in the Gotei 13 omakes? Shunsui loved Yama more than his own parents. I think he also ran away from his parents to go and live under Yama. That's why when Yama died he was the one screaming and not Ukitake. That's why in the flashback he was the one in Yama's quarters and not Ukitake. Shunsui had been with Yama since he was a kid and probably longer than when Ukitake was with him. After Sasakaibe he knew Yama the best. It only made sense he was appointed CC.
I already told you why Yama would be a better candidate that Unohana. When Kenpachi becomes stronger than Shunsui it's obvious he isn't going to challenge him for position for CC simply because he's stronger. Bleach isn't so one dimensional.
But that's a vague concept. Still, I don't see why being close to Captain-Commander would make him a good candidate. So, if CC died before Sasakibe, Sasakibe was going to be the next one?
I take it as proof that Kenpachi will never get any stronger than Kyouraku, but never mind, that's just a personal opinion.
Kenpachi can still get stronger than Shunsuui but not be able to beat him or want to challenge him.
---------- Post added at 05:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:25 AM ----------
Plus I suspect that shunsui is the best tactician of them all , just think of his abillities
---------- Post added at 05:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:28 AM ----------
and he is probably born before Yama bacame captain commander
Here's my ranking
3- shinsui / zaraki
5- Urahara / ishin / yoruichi
8- unahana / Gin / Byakuya
That's my top 10.
I'm interested in seeing what Shunsui is really, really capable of in a serious battle. Plus, Kubo hasn't revealed his bankai yet, and I bet he'll probably become stronger by the time Soul Society goes to Vandenreich to fight them again.
Yamamoto was the strongest and he proved it as far as I'm concerned. If he'd remained the same person he was 1,000 years ago, Aizen would've died by now and Juha Bach never would've defeated during the previous battle.
Kenpachi now has some connection to his zanpakuto, but I think he was only hyped up by Kubo to bring some interest to Unohana, even though, for me, I'm still unclear about her Bankai.
Hitsugaya to me, will eventually be the most powerful of Soul Society, in 1,000 years he'll be the next Captain Commander guaranteed.
I don't really see what exactly would have been all that different if yamamoto had been the same uncaring man he was once according to juhabach. Well, perhaps there would have been a few differences right now however odds are the end result wouldn't have been too different. The different things would at large be:
1.- Unohana would have been deployed
2.- Kenpachi would have been at his full power. That might or not imply the first thing I mentioned is impossible
As for the overall members of the squads I doubt there was much that could be done. Captains live and die, its not like there are plenty of people around suitable to replace the captains.
Yamamoto having been in his no shits given mode would not have necessarily resulted in victory though. certainly it would have made a difference against the stern rittern however whether that is enough to win the war is questionable considering the main reason for shinigami to loose that battle was not a lack of willingness to do anything to win but rather because the captains did not have their bankai available to them. Yamamoto himself could be argued to have fallen mainly due to that at large. It is plausible to have obtained better results although it would depend on whether they deploy at least one full power kenpachi or they are lucky enough to deploy two.