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Panels, please? Are we sure it was Tousen? Are we sure it wasn't Aizen? If it was Tousen, are we sure they weren't Aizen's KS?Quote:
He could feel his power, he was helpless, he had more questions than answers, he felt like he was being used like a toy. Still, I wouldn't call it despair. He was in some serious shit, but it was different.Quote:
Look up word "ignore" in a dictionary. I looked at every link you sent, and I almost know every panel by heart already.Quote:
Hey, kiddo, look "throat" up. xD The first link is chest, and the second is head. And aiming for the head is just Shunsui's personality. It served some purpose. Through the whole fight Shunsui was being shown as a person who doesn't care about rules and cares only about winning. And now, as a CC, he shows how much he shits on C46 rules.Quote:
P.S Quite frankly, I expected Tousen vs Shinji and Ichigo vs Shaz Domino.
Can take a punch with mask? Panels please. Reread the manga. His arm was CRUSHED. He can't take that punch. His hand being regenerated doesn't make him able to take it.Quote:
How many times have you sent those to other users? You are boring as hell, damn...Quote:
Yes, and being helpless is the same as not being able to do anything else and thus, not being strong enough to do anything else. Just say it, don't paraphrase it to make the impression it's different.Quote:
And Hinamori could have killed Yamaji while he was asleep like ten thousands times. And he was trying to cut vital spots. But as I wrote before, plot doesn't let people cut each other's throats. Plot is part of a story.Quote:
Strength? What strength? He was ability type, that was being trashed while opponent figured out a way how to fight. Couldn't kill Kenpachi, got beaten. Yup, he could, but that WOULDN'T make him strong. He was not like Aizen, who had outrageous strength, with which he could oppose entire G13 AND hax ability. He was decent fighter, pretty strong (For a captain class, not very strong), and had hax ability.Quote:
And how old are you? I won't explain what is manipulation and how to manipulate people to an idiot, who doesn't want to understand. Maybe when you grow up, you'll understand.
You don't even see, that Aizen was just using Tousen. Aizen knew what are Tousen's principles. He used it and made Tousen admire him. He made Tousen follow him. Then he killed him like a trash the first second he got beaten.
Aizen didn't move? How do you know he was there in the first place? How do you know he didn't have his sword prepared? And what conditional sentence is it?Quote:
"if Tousen felt obliged to protect Aizen, then why didn't Aizen move or try to block? "
You have answer in the very question... Aizen didn't block because he knew Tousen was loyal to him like a dog and wouldn't want him to lift his sword. Tousen was even surprised, that Aizen decided to draw his sword. He wanted to do everything himself.
Yup, he had to. He didn't kill Matsumoto, he cut Hiyori so Aizen couldn't kill her, he didn't fight Ichigo after he was winning, he just wanted to "watch", he didn't want to fight. And participating in this war fighting beside Aizen or ending up wounded with collateral isn't very wise decission.Quote:
Didn't expect you to understand. Tousen felt obliged to protect Aizen, you understood that, right? He was that villain-supporting characters, that goes with you wherever you are. Juha is being attacked? Haschwald cuts Ichigo's bankai OR shouting "YOUR MAJESTY!" Aizen is being attacked? Tousen goes for Shinji's head. Ichigo is fighting? Orihime "Kurosaki-kun" spam.Quote:
R.e.r.e.a.d.t.h.e.m.a.n.g.a. PLEASE. Path of justice? He was talking nonsense. Read his little talk with Komamura. Read about his motives while becoming Shinigami.Quote:
Where did I write, that Tousen was weak? He was weaker than Gin IMO, he was weak for a captain IMO. Period. Nothing else.Quote:
Panels, pretty please? Where people are behind him and actually effectively hit him. Ichigo? Couldn't, Kido shield. Shinji did? Where? He cut his arm. Soifon? Not sure if Aizen even was there, he said he countered with sheer reiatsu, don't see why we should believe it. Shunsui could? Don't see a wound anywhere.Quote:
Yup, just ignore Aizen's ability and talk more about trust and all!Quote:
And Tousen wouldn't mind dying for Aizen. He was so loyal.
You really don't know anything about people, do you? I think I wrote in my last discussion with you, that I study psychology. Aizen always was manipulator. He would say things Tousen would want to hear. Wouldn't be sure about "becoming Soul King". And the only reason Tousen was there is Aizen LET him follow.Quote:
Don't call it HIS zanpakuto. It was his beloved friend's zanpakuto. And I always thought those different abilities came from 2 souls in one sword. About Grillo. It's Spanish, thus, Hollow-ish. His bankai was completely different.Quote:
Tousen was the only one loyal and pretty strong. Stronger ones wouldn't follow Aizen and betray SS.Quote:
Show me panels, where he can take Kenpachi and Hisagi/Komamura with low difficulty. And remind me, how did he die...?Quote:
And every captain would be even more worried.Quote:
1. Used, manipulated, have it your way.Quote:
2. Judging by his feats, I believe he was weaker than Gin, who was prodigy, and could "kill" Butterflaizen. (yup, with ability, just like Tousen's strength lies in ability).
3. Provoking to manipulate. He wanted to cause certain reaction.
Tousen choose the path of justice, what he found to be the one with the least bloodshed. Soul Society's solution to everything was to kill it, but the "Justice system" wasn't even just, so Tousen decided to follow Aizen instead.
While the Shinigami path lead to more senseless violence and an eternity of unfairness, Aizen's path required ONE murder and it would change many things probably for the better. Aizen was honest and straight forward with his plans. Become stronger, kill the King. Tousen simply followed because it was more just than the Shinigami.
Because Aizen's hands remained far from his Zanpakutou, and both expression and personality make it hard to believe he would use an illusion for such a trivial thing.
His talk about the path of justice wasn't nonsense.
Tousen became a Shinigami for the sake of Justice, and that Justice encompassed revenge, and bloodshed for the sake of righteousness. Aizen's path followed Tousen's ideals more than the Shinigami.
There's a limit to his loyalty. He couldn't have afforded to die just like that without having his lifetime goal completed.
AND SPEAKING OF FALLACIES:
Boy, I love that page. Makes me want to write a thesis on that.
Now I'll reply to those quotes that have actually some meaning and are important to a discussion. You know, that we're talking about the same thing over and over again, right?
Yup, thank you, exactly my point. It doesn't all come down to strength, so judging strength by that is plain wrong.Quote:
Long story short, Tousen doesn't follow a path of justice. He follows the path of revenge bloodshed but tries to justify it with morality and rightousness. Nowhere near real justice. He proved it with his monologue to Grimmjow. His talk before Ressurection was proof of him totally losing it to revenge. He called his revenge "justice" to justify what he did and was going to do. Saying revenge required bloodshed, so NOT liking bloodshed, and calling REVENGE a JUSTICE is nonsense and wrong. It's his pitiful attempt to justify his actions.Quote:
I wrote, that IMO he is 9th/10th captain. I think Yamaji, Aizen, Unohana, Shunsui, Ukitake, Gin, Kenpachi and Byakuya are stronger than him.Quote:
First panel, Kenpachi speaking, not really good source of proof. He is an idiot.Quote:
Second panel, I think you misunderstood. He said he was afraid of DYING AS A SHINIGAMI, not dying itself. He meant he was afraid of not becoming something more than a shinigami before his death.
If he believed Aizen will carry his will and achieve his goal, he would give up his life for Aizen's. That is, if Aizen was in grave danger.
Tousen is a hypocrite. His path required lots of bloodshed that he tried to justify. Aizen's path wasn't rightous. Maybe it was, for him. He didn't care about others and would do anything for power and to achieve his goal.Quote:
And I don't have shred of doubt WHY Tousen joined Aizen. Aizen used it against him and gained pretty strong, loyal follower.
P.S It's like 3 am in my country so responding AGAIN to the every single quote would take just too much. I'm sorry. Maybe tomorrow I'll quickly write, but we should really decrease amount of those quotes. Few of them are about the same thing.
No she coulnt. Yama would sense her even in his sleep and most likely someone as weak as VC wouldnt be even able to ct Yama even if Yama would do nothing.Quote:
Yes plot is part of the story and we need to look when the plot is more important than any logic.
At the begining of the fight Keny didnt even knew that have his sense of touch. Tosen just made a little cut on hus shoulder. At that time Tosen could cut anywhere and Zaraki would just stood there unable to dodge. The important thing to look at are also that Tosen used shunpo only onece and it was to dodge Keny and not to attack him and newer used kido to block Keny even one secound would be enough.
So Yeah Tosen lost to plot and not to Keny. Because of plot he couldnt use Kido or Shunpo just like well every single of Kenys opponents, even Byakuya become retarded when fighting Keny http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-cha...5-page-19.html He used Bankai and starded to fight Keny at close range. For some reason as we see it in this arc Kubo loves Zaraki so much that he makes all his opponent retarded.
Tosen dont use shunpo or Kido
Nnoitora runs into a kendo with his guard down
Sterrnritters just standing there waiting till Zaraki kills them.
As for my ranking
3Seniors, Tessai, Ura, Yoru ( I think that Unohana is stronger than Uki and Kyou of course and I think that Tessai will be a beast)
4.all ither other captains
Last edited by ReiWen; January 05, 2013 at 05:39 AM.
For Kenpachi vs Tousen; I don't think attacking with Shunpo would make much of a difference for Tousen. Kenpachi was already unaware of his presence at any point within the Bankai's boundaries, so, he didn't need it badly. But I do agree Kido could have made a difference. He could have used Rikujokoro or a technique like that to immobilize Kenpachi.
For Kenpachi vs Nnoitra; It was indeed miserable of Nnoitra to underestimate Kenpachi's power and attack head on. He should have been more observant about his opponent's stance.
As for your list, well, Tessai is generally overlooked, since we didn't see him in action for more than a century, but I'm sure he has some kinjutsu Kido he has never shown (and unfortunately will probably never show).
I believe Tousen had a narrow-minded perspective. He thought he was freely acting on behalf of his perception of justice, although, in reality, he was being used as a tool for Aizen's own plans. I don't find his reasoning something that justifies his actions. In fact, it looked like it was nothing more than a simple grudge for his late friend, who was killed by a single Shinigami. Yet, Tousen was at Aizen's side, who was going to blow up a million souls in human world where many innocent people lived. Bloodshed for higher justice is the justice itself could be a good mantra for some, but it's not for me.
---------- Post added at 05:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:54 AM ----------
Regarding the plot armor;
I'm with Duniak at this one. No significant fight was ended with people getting cut in the throat or in the head. The instances provided when I previously brought this up were either insignificant battles like Kenpachi vs SR, Ichigo vs Shaz Domino; or the battle didn't already end with that move like Kenpachi vs Nnoitra. Kenpachi vs Tousen was significant enough that it couldn't possibly end in a single panel.
tosen was aizens bitch ...lamest guy in bleach... aizen made him his subordinate coz he could not have been affetcted by KS... if tosen would have gone against aizens plans he would have died 100 years back... even when aizen revealed his true self to unohana for first time he addressed Gin as his only real vice captain... Tosen had to bow before aizen in fear while Gin always acted like himself and played with aizen (with words)...aizen was always amused with gin while he treated tosen as his errand boy...its been clearly shown that aizen chose Gin coz he liked him while he chose Tosen coz he could not be affected by KS and he thought to better recruit him than kill him... also like you said Tosen had no real justification behind his actions...he was a lameass from starting to end...even though his bankai was cool still his personality was annoying and full of loopholes...
You guys truly love to make it hard for Tousen fans.
I'm not Tousen's fan, nor I have anything to say about his strength. But the fact that Aizen defended him from Grimmjow means a lot to me, cuz Jow is one of my fav 5 in this manga.
1) To defend Grimmjow, so that he doesn't get killed.
2) Most importantly, Tousen feeling a connection between their ideals, therefore, possessing the highest loyalty amongst his subordinates.
---------- Post added at 07:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 AM ----------
No disrespect to Tousen fans but I really think he was the weakest Captain yet. He's the only character which hollow powers made him look weaker than he already was. He really was pathetic 'till the end.
Ok so since you guys are arguing about a guy who is no longer a captain and is also dead, I figured I'd make a new list. (It should be noted this list is going to go off of hype and potential in some regards since we haven't seen many of the Captains Bankai yet.
1.Shunsui Kyōraku - Current Captain Commander, and has more than enough power in Shikai to defeat the #1 Espada in Starrk. Really a no brainer at this point.
2. Retsu Unohana - The original Kenpachi and one of the oldest Captains. Her calm demeanor now seems to hide something terrifying. She is the Himura Kenshin of the Captains I think.
3. Kenpachi Zaraki - One of the great war potentials and possibly has the most raw power of any Captain. Even without his Bankai and full control of his Shikai he's a force to be reckoned with and is about to get a HELL of a lot stronger.
4.Jūshirō Ukitake - Could be equal to Shunsui in power but I doubt it. His health is a major concern but he's still one of the senior most captains and had the respect of Yama.
5. Shinji Hirako Simply a badass and he was the leader of Vizards and immediately took back his Captaincy. His Shikai is damn cool and again, another character yet to go Bankai.
6. Byakuya Kuchiki - Despite getting owned by his own Bankai Byakuya is still a badass with very powerful Bankai and serious Kido moves.
7.Tōshirō Hitsugaya - The prodigy, powerful Bankai and good skills even though he's young.
8. Kensei Muguruma - Powerhouse with hollow powers and just another badass character.
9. Rōjūrō Ōtoribashi - Even though he got owned in his last fight I'll give him the benefit of the doubt since we haven't seen his Bankai yet and he's a Vizard.
10. Suì-Fēng - Speed demon assassin with a powerful Bankai that doesn't suite her. Can kick ass but obviously would get owned by 1-6.
11. Mayuri Kurotsuchi The mad professor who uses brains much more than power to fight.
12. Sajin Komamura Honestly think he's useless despite his strength. Renji will probably be more powerful than him and other captains after he gets back from the Royal Palace.
Last edited by Delbi; January 10, 2013 at 12:22 PM.
I don't think there is a single scenario in which renji would in some form or context be somewhat of a match for komamura. Komamura has fought aizen and a hollowified tousen both of whom have been extremely powerful enemies and it makes sense they would trash him easily. However komamura is indeed a captain level fighter who no single mere VC would ever have a chance against. The mere fact that renji has not so far mastered his bankai should be enough indication that komamura would clobber him. Even if renji gets his bankai fixed there is no reason for him to be able to stand up to the full might of komamura.