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I was thinking since Ichigo is captain level, which captains are within his reach. I believe him to be stronger than most while weaker than the obvious ones. You may include any captain or ex-captain in you argument or create a list.
The captains that Ichigo can't defeat !! (I am not listing them in power, its random)
1. Yamma - Arguably the strongest, can most likely defeat Ichigo with shikai alone.
2. Uki - Said to be one of the two powerful captains that can come close against Yamma.
3. Aizen - Too strong as a shinigami alone, was able to defeat Ichigo's bankai with ONE finger. Could be a vaizard
4. Shun - The second half of the powerful duo, said to be equal to Uki.
5. Gin - Aizen's right hand man, was able to push around Hitsu like a child. Shikai seems very effective, could be a vaizard
6. Zaraki - Their fight was a draw, plus Zaraki gave him too many openings.
7. Unohana - Seems to be very powerful, and one of the senior captains.
8. Mayuri - Is very intelligent, if given time to prepare ahead, would most likely win against Ichigo.
9. Tousen - Could be a vaizard, so that power up could make him on par.
10. Urahara - No need to add anything. Intelligence, power and knows a lot about Ichigo.
11. Isshin - His father, seems to be more powerful than he lets on, could be on Aizen and Yamma's level.
12. Soifon- Has bankai, and knows shunko, could give Ichigo trouble.
13. Byakuya - Supposedly increased in strength, has new techniques for shunpo, has learned new bankai technique.
14. ? (Add any other captain's that should be on this list)
The captains that Ichigo can defeat (I am not listing them in power, its random)
1. Byakuya - Against Ichigo's bankai, pink blades don't come close. Would have won (officially) if not for his immaturity at handling bankai. Has taken care about the bankai immaturity. Has hollow form
2. Tousen -His bankai would give Ichigo trouble, but as for the rest I favor Ichigo. Has hollow form
3. Komma -Has a ridiculously huge bankai that follows his actions, but with Ichigo's speed should be able to handle it.Has hollow form
4. Soifon -Basing the decision on her shikai, Ichigo's speed should be able to avoid it, GT should give her some trouble. Has hollow form
5. Hitsugaya - Boy wonder seems to be lacking in maturity with his bankai, could be downfall. Speed again a factor. Has hollow form
6. Mayuri - His intellect should guarantee the win, but something about Ichigo's resolve makes me think that he would eventually lose to him. Has hollow form
7. Zaraki - Their fight was a draw, Ichigo's relation with his sword and bankai could win it for him. Has hollow form
8. ? (Add any other captain's that should be on the list)
Side Note: I am listing them on how Ichigo would fare against them now. Please don't list any arguments based on potential of the captain or Ichigo's. Since that would be kinda limited since his potential would eventually make him stronger than all.
Last edited by TheChosenOne; February 19, 2008 at 02:23 PM.
Are we going to base this on his hollow transformation or without?
Yoruichi is another person that Ichigo cannot defeat at the moment. I still have a doubt if he could take her with hollow mask, he could.
I might hurt many Zaraki fans here right now, but either you underestimate Ichigo or overestimate Zaraki.
I personally judge the Zaraki vs. Ichigo fight as a clear win for Ichigo, but since many people share Yachiru's opinion about this fight, I'll try to explain my point based on a draw.
Ichigo made it a draw before he ever heard the word bankai. He also was injured (treated, but still injured) after his fight with Renji. Zaraki gave him many openings, that's right, but that's his fighting style. You can't use that point to judge Zaraki as a good fighter, instead you should downgrade him for underestimating his opponents.
Yeah, Zaraki is fucking cool, but maybe you should consider his own words. Ichigo is stronger than him.
- And I didn't even start to talk about Ichigo's mask. I call this a power gap.
Therefore, you can also kick Tousen out right away. Vaizard or not, as long as we don't see a clear power up beyond "obtaining mask" you can't consider him stronger. The only reason no espada has tried to kill him until now is called Aizen.
Oh yes, you listed Mayuri twice. I would prefer a "win" for Ichigo since Mayuri seems to have his problems with defending against ridiculous strong direct power blows. You know this is Ichigo's speciality.
The only "?" for me is Gin since we haven't seem him fighting Ichigo seriously.
Zaraki allowing openings is his way of creating interest while fighting weaker opponents. I'm pretty sure Zaraki can just come straight out and kill Ichigo at any time, but he does not find the fun in that. If he was 100% serious, then it's different. I wouldn't label that as his fighting style, however.
Anyway, if Zaraki does have shikai by now, I would easily compare that with Ichigo's mask because I believe the raw power in combination with the shikai power-up will make Zaraki VERY strong.
Had tousen wanted to kill Zaraki from the moment he did bankai, he could've. He decide to make Zaraki feel pain, which gave Zaraki a moment to turn the tables. I agree that Grimm could've have killed tousen, but Grimm also believes that he and Ulq would kill each other, which makes no sense when Ulq is clearly much stronger.Quote:
That's why I listed had he given time to prepare ahead. If Mayuri knows everything about Ichigo before the fight, I don't think Ichigo would stand a chance. Mayuri's power blow failure came against a technique which raises powers to unimaginable levels.Quote:
The reason why I put Gin in the cant category is I am basing it on what Aizen had done for Gin. Aizen being his captain could mean that he taught him many things. He could also be very powerful, not in Aizen's level but close.Quote:
If Zaraki has mastered his Shikai, by learning it's name and knowing attacks, I think he could be a match for Ichigo. Considering how powerful Ichigo got, Zaraki would blow out.
Ichigo only ran into a problem fighting Byakuya, because he did not want to kill him. It wasn't his lack of control, but rather the fact that he did not want to kill him. How ever Byakuya is one of the more powerful Captains which means if Ichigo can defeat him he can defeat most Captains.
A lot of people assume that Ichigo grew stronger by obtaining his Shikai, that is both correct and incorrect. Ichigo's Reiatsu has not changed significantly from the begining of the Manga its the same as it was then. All that has changed is how much Ichigo uses. All Ichigo gained from Zangetsu's Shikai was access to Zangetsu's powers. When Ichigo was fighting Zaraki he was relying heavily on the wealth of power Zangetsu provides him and his actual fighting technique was piss poor. Since that time Ichigo's fighting technique improved to the point he can defeat multiple Vice Captains bare handed while he was training to achieve Bankai. Ichigo's reiatsu did not increase at all upon achieving Bankai, but rather his speed went well beyond what any Captain is capable of. All Ichigo's Bankai does right now is increase his speed. So Zaraki fought a dramaticly slower and less skilled Ichigo then he is now. In short as it currently is there is no way short of pulling out a Bankai that Zaraki could be a match for Ichigo.
There are probably 4 Captains who Ichigo can't currently beat, but I wouldn't be suprised if that will change shortly.
the list is good, but I'll put byakuya sama in the list of the captains that ichigo cannot defeat, because if we see that fight again, first ichigo had the upper hand, ok, and senbonzakura kageyoshi could not keep up with ichigo's speed, but when senkei senbonzakura kageyoshi showed up. ichigo was gooing to be totally pwned by byakuya, and the only reason that ichigo could stand the fight was for hollow ichigo, who showed up when byakuya was going to deliver the final blow, and hollow ichigo is completely superior to ichigo with hollow mask, só I believe Ichigo with only hollow mask canot defeat byakuya
but a weird thing is that in the second movie, seems HitsuGAYa is fight equally with ichigo...
Try actually reading the fight, Byakuya even admitted if Ichigo had wanted to he could have killed him with little or no effort once he used his Bankai. The only reason Ichigo ran into trouble was his whole point in fighting Byakuya was to force him to change his mind about Rukia. Ichigo was nearly done in by his own power, nothing Byakuya did had any real effect on Ichigo.
If you say someone can defeat someone else, it is no guarantee that he will defeat him/her in an actual fight. We are only talking about possibilities, not constant facts.
Tousen is, as far as I understood, fighting for justice. Not rage, not revenge, but justice. He detests people like Zaraki who enjoy fights and hurting people. There is absolutely no way he would try to lengthen a fight. The only reason he would wait with the killing blow is necessity.
But maybe it is me who misjudge Tousen, and he is a fool who betrayed his own motives a long time ago.
Therefore it is necessary to discuss based on actual results, like the one of Ichigo vs. Byakuya.
I really cannot understand your point, Raimaru, because in my previous post I've only showed facts, not assumptions, but then I will make it more clear: Hollow Ichigo did won that fight, that was a fact that Hollow Ichigo saved Ichigo and delivered powerful blows in byakuya, no room for discussion, we clearly saw what Hollow Ichigo was the person who really hurts Byakuya, any doubts about that?
But back on the topic, i've thought that Soi Fon could be a tough opponent to ichigo, she is fast, and only needs 2 blows to kill any person, in shikai only, so maybe ichigo could have some problems with her, and komamura too, IMO , he has most stamina than any other captains( except zaraki) so could be a problematic fight too, so I'll put Soi Fon and Komamura in the list of the captains that ichigo cannot defeat
That's why I placed him on the can list, the whole reason why Ichigo was loosing when Byakuya started senkei was cuz his bankai was working against him. His bankai's reiatsu cracked his bones, cuz of his immaturity of mastering it.
Not really, Kenpachi confirms that Ichigo could defeat vice captain's without much effort. So him defeating vice captain after bankai doesn't change. Most likely the only thing that changed was he didn't use his zanpak, whereas before bankai he might have needed it.Quote:
Actually for achieveing bankai, Yoruchi claims that Ichigo needs to increase his reiatsu as well his combat techniques, he increased in the latter. Yoruichi wanted to increase the days of training so his reiatsu can increaseQuote:
Ichigo's speed could cause problems, but I still give Zaraki the doubt since he appears to be much stronger and ready to take on Nnoi at the moment.
overcome Byakuya's bankai reiatsu.
draw. That's the reason why I put him in both the lists. We don't know if Ichigo can win against the Kenpachi that is fighting Nnoi, we have that doubt thus I put him on the can and can't list.
All I am saying is that, when tousen did bankai, if he had chose to cut of Zaraki's head the first time, he would have killed him. He kept cutting him giving the chance for a counter.Quote:
From the moment tousen activated bankai he cut and kept cutting Zaraki, he was not wanting to kill him. It wasn't until Ken had turned the tables on him that tousen, that he decided to kill him.Quote:
I wouldn't call him a fool, I would just call him someone who lost his sanity over his life ambition. He is so motivated by justice that he has lost the perception to decide what is right and wrong.Quote:
That's why I listed everything, if Mayuri knows everything then he will kill Ichigo. So the problem of something being overlooked doesn't happen. He was able to defeat Szayel the same way, through his bacteria camera he analyzed szayel and killed him.Quote:
That's why I listed the ?, so that people may add their own opinion if a captain can defeat or cant.Quote:
Byakuya could have gotten stronger since SS, cuz he was able to defeat Zomari pretty easily. So with that said Ichigo might not be able to defeat Byakuya this time around.Quote:
Last edited by TheChosenOne; January 14, 2008 at 01:36 PM.