Your logic is horrible, considering Sharingan isn't enough. Sasuke would still have to learn how to manipulate his nature before he learned chidori, Sharingan doesn't help with that. Movement of the arm isn't what makes a chidori. Sakura and Sasuke not helping Naruto out does not change the fact that Naruto had no freakin' idea that he had to cheat but not get caught - the only one in Team 7 not to realize this. This does not make him a genius.
And having Sharingan does not make Sasuke less of a genius.
He guided Naruto by showing him stuff. He showed Naruto how to pop the balloon and ball, how to hold the chakra in, and etc.Quote:
So? Kakashi told Naruto about the clones and Yamato kept the Kyuubi in check. Without Kakashi's explanations and Yamato giving him examples, Naruto would not have been able to go as far as FRS. Without that kage bunshin memory transfer asspull, Naruto would have taken at least one good month to be able to change his chakra to fuuton. Naruto even had difficulty understanding Kakashi's explanations, as well as difficulty in focusing on making rasengan and even understanding the whole thing.
So you want me to refute manga statements? Can't do that. We've seen proof that Sasuke is a genius. And no, he wouldn't lose all moves, just Susano'o, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi.Quote:
Kakashi teaching Sasuke is no different from him teaching Naruto, except Naruto had a haxxed way of learning. Sasuke was still easily better than Naruto when they met at Orochimaru's lair, despite Naruto being guided by Jiraiya and Kakashi as well.
So? Later it was Jiraiya who made Naruto realize that rasengan existed, and Fukasaku realize that Sage Mode existed. Your argument doesn't hold any water here.
Because Rock lee was faster than Sasuke. Naruto got owned by Rock Lee in one move, in less than a page or two. Sasuke was still fighting, and it took at least two moves. It's not even a freakin' shortcut considering Sasuke still had to work on his stamina and speed. Even after that he couldn't keep up Lee's speed for a long time. From what we saw, Sasuke barely had anyoen to guide him. His dad taught him the seal for fireball, but after Sasuke failed the first time, he came back every day to train for it and finally mastered it. Without Sharingan. At age 6 or 7. That makes him a genius. Naruto couldn't evne do a basic bunshin at age 12. Your arguments against Sasuke make no sense here.Quote:
if you take Kyuubi away from Naruto, then he doesn't much either. He can't spam kage bunshins as much as he does, or be able to win most of his matches. Without the Kyuubi, he'd have lost against Neji, Gaara, and Haku, among many other shinobi.
---------- Post added at 02:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 AM ----------
My statement isn't false, at all. Tobi still isn't a genius despite Mangekyo. He's just an idiot with an overpowered ability. No one has once considered Tobi a genius, even after he got his MS. The only reason why he was feared was because they thought he was Madara.
Konohamaru would not be considered a genius if he could shoot laser beams out of his eyes. He'd have to show he was a genius, like how Sasuke, Neji,a nd Itachi showed they were geniuses. It's not as easy as having a Sharingan or Byakugan.
Naruto's own admission that he is stupid, while in battle no less.
---------- Post added at 08:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 AM ----------
Do you want to know something about Neji, Sasuke, Kakashi, Orochimaru, etc, that makes them different than Naruto? None of them are Geniuses because of their ability to cheat, they are geniuses despite it.
Sasuke was considered a genius before ever getting the Sharigan, same goes for Kakashi.
Neji was a genius for teaching himself all of his clan techniques, with no help. No one ever showed him anything, he just taught himself.
Orochimaru was considered a genius since he was a child, prior to him gaining vast amounts of jutsu and modifying his body.
Shikamaru was a genius despite having terrible test scores because he had an IQ of over 200.
Being a genius is something that is inherent, something you are born with as shown by this manga, everyone that has ever been called a genius in this manga was called one since they were children.
Naruto is not a genius. His greatest accomplishment that is genius worthy, was accomplished in a way that goes against everything that makes a genius and a genius.You need to stop trying to correlate the real world term genius, to the manga term genius because they are not one in the same and never will be.
I'd like to throw in that Goku was pretty stupid.
A lot of characters are "stupid" in one aspect but a genius in another. I mean, wasn't this referenced in the manga several times already?
Just saying, sometimes these "Discussions" can be a little trivial...especially the issue of cheating.
But the whole reason our argument started was because he was trying to say that since Naruto accomplished what he did, he was a genius. I refuted that claim by saying that even though it was an incredible jutsu he created, you need more than something to be incredible for it to be an act of genius, otherwise nearly everyone in the manga could be considered a genius.
(On a side note, while Goku and many manga characters are stupid, Kishi goes to great lengths to make Naruto look like he's missing large portions of his brain. Why he does this I will never know, because for me it ruins a lot about Naruto)
---------- Post added at 08:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 AM ----------
As for Naruto, he'd certainly still be one of the strongest ninja in the manga without Kurama, although he'd get his ass kicked by the true top tier guys. He'd essentially be Jiraiya with more chakra but with less diversity in his techniques despite them being vastly more powerful.
Heres a panel where its said that Kushina taught Minato Uzumaki jutsus. There is another instance where Minato says that it was thanks to Kushina that he learnt the Jutsus he learnt.Quote:
Minato has never, not once been hinted to have any special bloodline ability nor has his clan ever been said to be special.
What does his blood have to do with him being a genius? When has he ever been hinted to have special blood?Quote:
You're reading a fucking FANTASY STORY, bro. "Cheating" ain't cut for the manga-dictionary. Have some fucking common sense. If everyone managed to create a technique like Rasenshuriken, the statements you call arguments would have a valid point. Otherwise, it doesn't compute.
Yeah? You wrote a fanfiction story which tells you that? You're getting ridiculous with making up your shit that doesn't make sense in correlation to actual story in this manga. If Naruto cheats, everyone else cheats. It's a basic principle of logic, but I guess you can't comprehend that.
Like I said, they were considered Geniuses because they were good in school. That is the only reason if we exclude Sharingan. Of course Oro was a Genius, he knew Senjutsu ever since he was a little kid, Captain Obvious. Same goes for Shikamaru.
Naruto IS a Genius. It's just that he didn't know it since he was born. The mentality he grew up in didn't allow him to find his inner talents and observance of what he was capable of whereas Sasuke/Neji and shinobi similar to them knew it from the start, which made it easier to draw even more power out of their confidence. CAN YOU GRASP WHAT I'M SAYING? Naruto is a late-bloomer Genius. He was searching for affection and a human contact while Sasuke and Neji trained like hell and were nurtured by a pedestal of etiquette. That's the ONLY difference between them.
And while I'll ignore your insults and wait for your blood pressure to go down I'd like to point out a few things.
1) That isn't the only time he's been stupid in battle. I can throw out others if you'd like as well, that was simply the most recent. Aside from that, we have his low test scores, general lack of common sense, and his constant need for things to be explained to him slowly. How does any of that add up to him being intelligent? He's a lovable idiot! That's his character!
2) What is exactly a technique like Rasenshuriken? Would Kirin count? Because while it took Naruto between 30-40 years to create Raseshuriken, Sasuke created Kirin it in 2 1/2 years. Both are examples of things never before done to scales never before achieved. Difference is, one took 30-40 years to do, the other took 2 1/2 years. Which is more impressive? Neither, they are equally impressive and thus the only thing separating them is 1) How long it took for them to be achieved, and 2) how they were achieved.
3) I am not making anything up. I gave you examples of people considered geniuses despite their test scores in school. Neji had NO ONE TEACH HIM A THING. His father was dead when he was a small child. Afterwards, he then went on to TEACH HIMSELF, all of his clans techniques.
4) There are no late bloomer geniuses, show me one other than Naruto. You can't because they don't exist in the realms of this manga.
Sasuke and Neji were nurtured? They both had lost the people they loved most and trained on their own from about the age of 5 or 6.
I really am not sure why you are so hell bent on showing that he is a genius.
My blood pressure is down, it's just that I'm losing respect because you can't seem to understand what I'm saying.
1. How many time do I have to repeat myself? His scores in school, idiocy outside of battles and such don't matter. The way he fights and surprising movements, actions and decisions he makes in-battle are worthy enough to say that he's clever during battles, at least. He's a lovable idiot OUTSIDE OF BATTLES.
2. This is why I'm losing respect for you and think that your intelligence has a low range. Stop for a moment and try to think in terms that Naruto's not "cheating". Okay, now, Naruto DIDN'T learn it in 30 years, because he has an ability which caused him to learn it faster. If Itachi didn't sacrifice himself, Sasuke wouldn't have gotten MS nor EMS, by your logic. Do you understand what I'm saying? There is no "cheating" because if you take away something from ANYONE out of this manga, they become useless. Now that I got that out of the way, NO ONE can and NO ONE will make such a technique. There is NO technique like it. Nagato's Shinra Tensei and Bijuudama could compete with it but that's it.
3. You just made that up. Contradiction at its finest. We can assume that he did, but it doesn't prove it's true. But that doesn't matter as you clearly didn't understand a thing I said in the last paragraph on my last post. Even if it matter, Neji got his ass kicked.
4. Your first sentence and second one don't agree with each other. There IS one, and it's Naruto.
You don't get it, do you? Not nurtured by their parents. Nurtured by praise from other people. It inspires self-confidence and ability to do even greater things. They had reputation, not only because of themselves but because of their clans. If not for themselves, they had to preserve the clan's reputation, AT LEAST. What did Naruto have? No parents, no love, no reason to live, no objectives in life, no nothing. He was a cast out, hated loser in other people's eyes. If you add a little maturity into that, you know what I mean.
Because of our opinions. Same as why you're so bent on showing that he's not.
---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:59 PM ----------
I was able to deal with him being the Son of the Minato because Minato himself didn't come from some crazy clan, he was a normal guy who happened to be a genius and became Hokage and was awesome.
But then Kushina came from one of the strongest bloodlines in the manga....
And then Naruto was destined to do this all a long...
IMO, making him a genius on top of that goes against everything he and this manga stood for it Part 1. To me, it ruins his character even more than he's already be ruined.
I'm not asking for Naruto to be an idiot, in fact I hate all the shit Kishi does that makes him stupid. I HATE how he doesn't let him grow up and have a brain.
But then, for him to make him a genius, despite the fact he's a fumbling idiot 90% time is just stupid and terrible writing.
If Naruto isn't a genius, he has to at least be something like a savant. His in-battle and hairbrain ideas all show high levels of creativity. He takes the basics of strategy and adds a spin them them with the usage of his abilities. It works because nobody expects those kinds of tactics. That's what makes it genius. Not sure how he's not considered a genius within battle. He's repeatedly come up with unconventional means and ideas against different foes. Geniuses can grasp togh abstract ideas and apply them. He was able to do that as well. Mostly because of his unconventional way of thinking and learning.
1) Now you are contradicting yourself. You said earlier that all those ninja were only considered geniuses BECAUSE they were good in scholl. Now we should discount Naruto's performance in school to fit your argument?
And since when did clever = genius? Please show me when that was determined. Being clever is not a quality of a genius.
2) Naruto gained 30 years of experience from his clones. There is no debating this, Kakashi even told him that the whole point of this training was to shrink the time needed to train.
The whole point of this argument is that we are debating about the idea of genius, how it is an intellectual property. Whether or not he was cheating is irrelevant. His brain, the thing that makes you a genius or not, took 30-40 years of experience in order for him to be capable of learning FRS.
3) Look at this:
Neji, mastering Kaiten, ON HIS OWN.
His uncle in disbelief that he mastered ANOTHER technique on his own
Neji getting his ass kicked is irrelevant.
4) So he is the exception to the rule is what you are saying?
How in the hell does being nurtured by others inspire self confidence in them? Sasuke hated everyone around him an ignored praise. He accomplished what he did out of hatred for his brother and strive to get better.
Neji was from the Branch House. He was literally a slave. NO ONE gave him anything.
And a tough up bringing should only have made him want to achieve more. Neji and Sasuke didn't have it easy and both achieved great things at a young age and were hailed as geniuses. They unlocked the power inside them because they had the intellect and drive to do so.
Naruto had plenty of drive, he wanted to be Hokage, and wanted to be better than Sasuke. What did he lack? The intelligence, and it showed. But it didn't matter, because through hard work he still achieved great things.
This annoying little brat who still had an honest heart. When he met Haku and Zabuza you expexted a great deal of character developmment concerning Naruto and to some degree it really happened. The beginnig of shippuden wasn't all that bad either, Naruto trying not to use the QB's power while facing his own Rage (aswell as the cruel nature of the Ninja world), reall great stuff.
But then the character development stopped for almost everybody, nothing major happened for a while, and when it happened it didn't have much of an impact, exceptions were Narutos battle against pain and narutos clash with sasuke after the summit. That's the naruto i wanted for this manga, the one who talked to sasuke at the summit, not the one who devolved to this "going to be hokage"-idiot again, the one who can't come up with anything creatve when confronted with the emotional problems represented by obito, shouting meaningless one-liners while making a victory pose.
QB used to reprsent an "easy" way out of the resonsibilitys a ninja had to face, his "solution" was blind rage and control through power (the same thing the uchiha represent), changing him to a missunderstood good guy was the worst decision ever made in the whole manga, it took a major conflict out of the story and keept Naruto from further development as he did not need to deal with his own hatred in a mature way (and don't bring up the waterfall of truth stuff... I beg you). It's interesting to see that this manga not only wasted the potential of a great story but also lost his great display of fights, unique skills etc... now you have thousands of ninjas with superpowers fighting giant monsters instead of clever battles and stunning skills (remember how naruto used clones and this morphing skill, turning his clons into rocks or shurikens..... good times)...
sadly Naruto now is a manga which only entertains because it remotley resembles the great manga it was and could have been.
Last edited by Revvo; January 29, 2013 at 09:24 AM.