Last edited by Roman; January 29, 2013 at 04:22 PM.
Fact1: Kisame went down after receiving a single blow from V2 Killer Bee. If Samehada wasn't around, he would be dead.
Fact2: Uzumaki body is a trade mark and well-known inheritance from Rikudo Senin
Fact3: 617 even stated that Naruto like Kushina is the only one that can handle Kyuubi's chakra.
The word genius is not specific to Naruto series. It is a universally well-defined word, and I think that Kishi used it properly. In fact, the use of genius in Naruto is consistent with the definition below. This is the third time I am posting this definition, but obviously, some people prefer to use their own definition, or part of the definition.
gen·ius [jeen-yuhs] from dictionary.com and fitted to Naruto
Definition 1. an exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work in science, art, music, etc.: the genius of Mozart. Synonyms: intelligence, ingenuity, wit; brains.
This definition is the same as Minato, Kabuto, Orochimaru.
Definition 2.a person having such capacity.
This is the name given to any genius person.
Definition 3. a person having an extraordinarily high intelligence rating on a psychological test, as an IQ above 140. Synonyms: mental giant, master, expert; whiz, brain, brainiac. Antonyms: idiot, imbecile, half-wit, dope, moron; fool, simpleton, dunce, dullard, dolt; numskull, blockhead, nitwit, ninny.
This definition will fit the Nara clan as well as Minato, Kabuto, and Orochimaru.
Definition 4. natural ability or capacity; strong inclination: a special genius for leadership. Synonyms: gift, talent, aptitude, faculty, endowment, predilection; penchant, knack, bent, flair, wizardry.
This definition will fit Naruto (his body, leadership, etc), the Uchiha and Huyaga (their Sharingan and Byakugan), the Kaguya (their bones), the Uzumaki (their body).
Definition 5. distinctive character or spirit, as of a nation, period, or language.
I don't know much about this one. I am inclined to summon curse of hatred, will of fire, etc.
I think anyone who want an objective discussion will see that there is no alteration of this definition in Naruto. Only the fandom is making mistakes in my opinion.
Last edited by so6pww; January 29, 2013 at 04:39 PM.
I'm trying to explain same things the entire day, but people generally don't know how to think objectively. Fixations on a certain thing without the possibility to prove it wrong, even when there's evidence. But I guess that's the reason there always will be discussions.
Neji compared a 30% Kisame to the last time he saw Naruto, who was being powered by the Kyuubi's chakra. We were also told by Chojuro how Kisame was basically a Bijuu without a tail. Without the Kyuubi's chakra, Naruto only has about twice as much as a regular person, given that compared to Kakashi he has four times as much.
Kirabi taking Kisame down doesn't disprove anything. Naruto has been taken down dozens of times too. An inheritance from the Rikudou Sennin doesn't make one superior. Karin's an Uzumaki and she sucks at fighting. And the Kyuubi was obviously just talking about that one situation, as we know both Mito and the KinGin brothers were also capable of handling it's chakra.
Last edited by Rikudou King; January 29, 2013 at 05:01 PM.
So far, majority who claim to be objective or tell others to be objective or complain about fandom aren't better and in some cases, even worse.
MY DEFINITION OF GENIUS IS MUCH BETTER THAN YOURS
WITH THE FEELING SO PURE
MY DEFINITION OF GENIUS WALKS RIGHT THROUGH THE DOOR~
For how much activity this conversation has gotten, it is an agonizingly stupid exchange. Kishi has never sat down and himself said "this is what genius is". Instead, he's had multiple characters say what it is from multiple perspectives. Naruto and Neji's last exchange before the latter's death cements the fact that people don't know what the hell they're talking about when it comes to gauging genius... which has hilariously manifested here IRL. Either you think that people like Naruto and Lee are geniuses of an exotic variety, or you outright deny them the same praise that people like Sasuke and Kakashi get by pointlessly redefining what a word means to suit your own argument.
Intellectuality /= genius. It's just an indicator. Swift comprehension /= genius. It's also just an indicator. Bloodline is another indicator of potential genius, but it doesn't define it. Kishi spent most of Part I trying to get that point across. Very few non-genius characters have gotten any real spotlight in this manga that is almost entirely about 'genius' and what that means. Even Sakura has a flare of genius, in the field of medicine. If nothing else, Naruto is a true genius of empathy at least (if unrealistic).
At its core, this conversation reminds me of Jiraiya and Oro arguing over what a "shinobi" is. Just like this bit about 'genius', I bet they'd been having the same argument for years lol.
Last edited by badluckartist; January 29, 2013 at 06:32 PM.
Words have out-dated meanings, that isn't uncommon. The whole point of this thread was the fact that the definitions that the manga use, are the first 3, and never has there been an instance where the 4th definition was used in the manga.
Tsunade is Hokage and member of both the Senju and Uzumaki clan, and has created one of the greatest medical techniques around. Yet not once in the series has she ever been referred to as a genius. Gaara has an amazing power, has actually lead people into battle along with getting them to work together, and is the Kazekage. Yet again, he has never been referred to as a genius. There are a dozen characters who can be said to excel the mediocrity, yet none of them are referred to as geniuses. Because "excelling the mediocrity" is not what makes a genius in the Narutoverse.
Shikamaru, Sasuke, Neji, Lee, Minato, Kakashi, Itachi, and Shikaku are all declared geniuses. What do they have in common? Aside from most of them showing the ability to improve to a greater level in a short time, they all showed tactical intelligences to take advantage of their opponents. Naruto unfortunately hasn't. His improvement has always been based either on pure luck or the efforts of others, and he rarely shows any tactical smarts. He can be tricky and deceptive, but actually creating a plan to take advantage of an opponents abilities and weaknesses is not his modus operandi. His modus operandi is to keep attacking til he succeeds, to never give up. And while that makes him one of a kind and special, that's not how a genius is defined by the series. And jumping into an attack planned by another is not an act of leadership.
There are alot of Genius-type ninja in the Naruto world. You can't argue against some of the most broken characters in this series at all. Minato gets alot of regard for being an incredible shinobi which he should, but I don't see as much recognition for Tobirama Senju. He was the one who created "Edo Tensei." Also had a teleportation jutsu before the 4th did and also stuck his finger to the ground to locate where the enemy was and how many of them were in the area. He was also hailed as the most broken water jutsu-user in the series...
Heh. System of a Down, nice. As a Naruto fan I expected you to listen to something a bit less... awesome.Originally Posted by badluckartist
On topic though, if we're all agreeing that there's a difference between what eachother considers genius, why the hell are we stil arguing? I mean, it's like, everyone wants so bad to either amp up Naruto or tear him down that they forget their stance during the argument.
I pretty much agree with Delbi and Rikudou King, but there's one point I need to make painfully clear: whoever out there said Naruto isn't an idiot is DELIBERATELY deluding themselves out of fandom. I don't like calling people fanboys but I'm NEVER letting you guys live this shit down:
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/551 Naruto remembering Nagato's abilities...
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/551/2 Including the one that absorbs your ninjutsu Then, thanks to his genius you guys keep harping about, he deduces that the best way to defeat a ninja who absorbs ninjutsu, is to hit him with a ninjutsu.
Surprisingly, Nagato absorbs the ninjutsu!
http://narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/551/3 Immediately after, Naruto remembers that he's a fucking idiot.
So. I'm not getting into the genius debate with you guys for this very reason. We may not know what kind of genius he is, but we know what kinda genius he ain't.
The good kind, I mean.
Pfft, that's just Kishi dumbing him up. Would he seriously have made this kind of error? That was quite out of character with what we've seen from him. Naruto's ability to come up with plans and ways makes him the opposite of idiot. Him recognizing Rock Lee's bruised/beaten up hand after the wrapping came off and pointing out that Lee worked very hard was quite insightful for Naruto. He's also come up with good plans on the fly as well, whether against Zabuza or Kiba.
I won't ever consider Naruto a genius, but I don't think he's dumb either, even if he did jump into Haku's ice mirrors without thinking of a good ambush....
I think more is being made of the genius label than the story intended. Genius referred to characters with some innate, extraordinary talent. Something they were born with. Naturals, quick studies. Sasuke was a natural, learning quickly. Neiji too. Naruto was not, he had to put in more time and study than his peers. That was part of why he saw Sasuke as a rival, something to aim for. That's also why Rock Lee saw Neiji as a rival. Genius was never meant to imply how powerful a ninja someone would become, only how easily they learned the craft. Naruto became a great ninja through hard work and perseverance, whereas it came easily to Sasuke the genius. That is why Sasuke was so intimated near the end of part one, when he first realized Naruto was catching up to him. Sasuke felt his genius would always give him an advantage, only to realize that Naruto was catching him anyway, and might even surpass him. From Sasuke's point of view, that was part of the reason he viewed Naruto as a rival.
So no, Naruto was not a genius. That's an essential part of his character. But that does not mean he can not be a great ninja, only that he achieved with hard work what Sasuke achieved with genius.