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I'll give you a much simpiler and better example.
There is riding a bike, and riding a bike with training wheels.
There is forming a Rasengan and there is forming a Rasengan with the use of a clone.
The fact that Naruto has to use another jutsu to complete the technique means he has not mastered that technique. It doesn't get much simpler than that. His lack of proficiency means he has not mastered it.
I understand your examples, but we have different views on what mastery is. If the cause and effect are the same in both ways of executing it, the matter is mastered as it produces the same unleashing concept of its purpose.
I understand it but we disagree on his KB being a disadvantage. Also, I judge mastery by the final effect whereas you look at details such as forming mechanics etc. Naruto can be proficient at using Rasengan in his own way, just as Minato is proficient at using it the original way. I agree that Minato's is more practical, but Naruto's KB is so perfect that it rarely poses a disadvantage in battles, as we've seen.
There are numerous ways to impose on Naruto's inability to use Rasengan without a clone but Kishi has never allowed that to happen, just like he never allowed Naruto to fight a genjutsu user other than Itachi who posed a threat to him. Naruto has never had to fight anyone where he is either A) at a disadvantage due to his faults, or B) without a crutch or significant back-up. But this is always the case in Shounen, otherwise we'd have a lot of dead characters lol.
(This is off our original topic but is something that has always bothered me) IMO, Naruto has never had to fight someone in a situation like when Jiraiya fought Pain or when Kakashi fought Deva and Asura. More recently he's become God-like and so he really can't be beat since it's the end of the manga, but there have been plenty of times in the past where his obvious faults have just been looked over. To me that's something that has always bothered me because it's essentially meant he can't lose, which takes a lot of fun out for me because we always figure he's going to win, so there's no surprise. The only time he's ever truly "lost" a fight outright is when he fought Sasuke at the VOTE.
One who thinks like you might agree with you, but I don't. Why would Kishi hide his faults if he wants to show Naruto's competence in his own way, through his own character? That's the whole point of him as a character. He's not a Genius, but through hard work, he does Genius feats. But that gives us a digression on how a certain reader reads the story. So it all comes down to point of view in the end, like it always does.
I agree, I always hated how Kurama saved his ass against Pain, or how he was helpless against Nagato again when he was ETed. He had help. There are plenty of times he could lose, but like you said, Shounen doesn't allow that. Kishimoto always tries not to hide his clumsiness, even in serious battles, which is why I understand people take him as an idiot. This is why I said that Kishimoto doesn't hide his faults, because despite his powers, the battles are decided through Naruto's words rather than his power. But then again, I just take it how the story is told because if I get into deeper thinking about what could've happened, it would be an endless tornado of possible outcomes which doesn't justify or downplay the true Naruto that Kishimoto created. I guess we'll see his true powers once again against Sasuke, which was and will be the best battle ever in this manga.
IMO, with your argument you could say Naruto mastered Kage Bushin a long time ago. yet he didn't even know he could receive information from his clones until Kakashi told him.
Now, that is entirely different than him altering the technique which he has done numerous times. Because he is no longer creating a simple Rasengan, but an entirely new jutsu based on the Rasengan. Just like Sasuke's chidori isn't Rakiri, but Sasuke can create variations of chidori. In that sense, Naruto nor Sasuke haven't "mastered" their specific jutsu, but have tailored it to their fighting style.
Also to me, many of Naruto's chances of overcoming things were at the expense of another character. Perfect examples are Neji, Kakazu and Pain. All three of them either had completely uncharacteristic moments of stupidity, or had to be weakened to the point of fodder for Naruto to defeat them. Instead of Naruto improving, we get other characters becoming weak for the sake of the plot. That makes no sense.
Even more upsetting was Nagato's 180, and my biggest pet peeve, the whole "Cycle of Hatred". Originally I thought Kishi was going to delve into the whole "human condition" idea with Nagato, but instead took the easy way out. Instead of explaining that everyone has both good and evil in them, and thus the world can never truly be at peace, Kishi came up with the stupid idea that Naruto can be the Messiah of the whole planet. That also threw out the whole "hard work over genius" concept given the fact that Naruto's father was a Hokage, his mother was essentially royalty, and he was destined to do all this shit since the beginning. Makes his whole fight with Neji worthless in my mind.
Last edited by Delbi; July 03, 2013 at 03:12 PM.
Wrong. The reason more people don't know it is because it's only been taught to a select few, just like Shikamaru's shadow techniques and Chouji's weight techniques. That's the whole deal with Hidan techniques, that anyone could learn them but can't because they're kept secret within a clan. That's basically how the Rasengan has been treated, kept solely between those connected to Minato and Naruto. There's nothing to suggest that if someone was taught it, they would find it hard to learn. The very fact Konohamaru was capable of learning it before he even graduated and became a genin would disprove the idea that it's hard to learn. Neither Naruto nor Konohamaru are the most "skilled" ninjas, so why would more skilled ninjas have a harder time learning it then them? It's not like with the FRS and has specific requirements that would preclude the majority of people from being able to learn it.
To piggyback on that, the Rasengan is basically controlling an external flow of charka from one's body. Every Hyuuga worth a shit should be able to learn it no problem if taught the proper mechanics. Same goes for nearly any Jounin level ninja IMO.
Which makes me wonder why in the hell a ball of chakra was the pinnacle of shape manipulation?
I think I'm also one of hte few who doesn't take Bee's words as facts and continue to believe that Minato created rasengan from scratch. Even though it seems Kishi may have changed his mind.
naruto vs nagato was very unfair fight... without madara rinnegan nagato would be fodder... naruto show clumsy only in two serious fight... sasuke and naruto more genius than minato and itachi by power, not by intelligence yet... all genius have help in battle... also naruto choise his destiny, not destiny choise naruto.
Last edited by flow like; July 05, 2013 at 12:15 AM.
Using Rasengan efficiently doesn't necessarily depend on using it with one hand or two, it all depends how quickly and effectively you can use it to hit some one, if Naruto was fighting against Obito in place of Minato he couldn't have hit tobi with a rasengan. On the other hand Minato showed how to use it efficiently and effectively by hitting or infact smashing tobi with it in a matter of split second.
---------- Post added at 10:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 AM ----------
And on topic of being able to learn the Rasengan, I second the thought that every Hyyuga should be able to learn it or at least Neji should be able to learn it IF TAUGHT.
Naruto actually isn't that efficient (base mode) in forming rasengan.
But we did see what he can do in his bijuu mode where he can create multiple of it without clones.
That's more for it.