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Didn't Mito and Kushina wield the Kyuubi like Naruto? Madara and Hashirama also controlled the Kyuubi too. The bugs are part of Shino, and kagemane is Shikamaru's jutsu that he had to learn. Cursed Seal, like bugs, aren't automatic either, Sasuke and Shino still need control.
You're the one claiming Naruto sucks without Kyuubi, not me. Naruto and Sasuke have shown that they're good without Kyuubi or Sharingan, although both saved their asses many times. Naruto fought Kiba without Kyuubi and bad chakra control because of the five-pronged seal and look at what he did - timed shadow clone with transformation jutsu flawlessly, kept fighting the Rain nins even though he was nearly out of chakra, and more. Hell, even with his chakra control messed up horribly, Naruto was still slowly getting better at walkign on water until Jiraiya removed Orochimaru's seal. Naruto's plenty strong without Kyuubi and up until the war, the Kyuubi usually occurred as last resort.
Sasuke was the one who was doing well against those two Rain chuunins when Naruto was scared. He was also holding his own against Haku, if not doing better, until Haku used the Demonic Ice Mirrors. Even then, it took a trap to take out Sasuke. All this before Sharingan. Even when the Cursed Seal was restricting him, Sasuke still managed to beat Yoroi using his intellect and Sharingan.
There, I showed you why Naruto and Sasuke, mainly Naruto, wouldn't be weaker if you took away their respective power. Besides, taking away Sasuke's Sharingan is like taking away Naruto's Uzumaki stamina or chakra. Taking away Taka from Sasuke is like taking away Kyuubi from Naruto, or vice versa.
Naruto didn't catch up through genius, he caught up to Sasuke by working his ass off, having ungodly stamina, and having great timing or good matchups. Naruto didn't face a Gaara with perfect defense, he faced crazed Gaara who didn't have his automatic defense in that mode, as far as I recall. Just like how Sasuke was lucky to not have ever fought Pain. I'm not just using academy performance to show or think that Naruto's not a genius, but how Naruto's done throughout the manga.
Naruto's never had a power down though, as far as I recall.
I'm the last person who's gonna say that Naruto sucks without a Bijuu, believe me. He has Senjuu blood in him. He can't suck. If both abilities saved their asses, why are you then questioning Kyuubi being a part of him? You probably won't see Naruto fighting without him, just like you won't see Sasuke without his Sharingan.
The problem was the state of mind. Naruto wasn't yet acknowledged to that point in which he could believe in his powers like Sasuke was. If you took away Sasuke's Cursed Seal, he'd be in the same shoes as Naruto.
Wait, man. Are you defending Naruto or? I'm a bit confused because you're actually praising him.
Naruto caught 12 years of Sasuke's skills in half a year, and even made them superior. That's pretty Genius to me. That crazed Gaara didn't face Naruto in his normal state because I'm sure you recall his fight with Neji prior to events with Gaara.
Once again though, this is where we disagree.
Senju blood has nothing to do with this, it's all about who Naruto is. Naruto worked hard to master kage bunshin, Naruto worked hard to climb to the top of the tree, Naruto was the one who despite being so low on chakra refused to rest and continued fighting the Rain genin. I'm also one of the last person to say he sucks without Kyuubi, and I defend him a lot, but I just can't consider a bijuu part of anyone's power, not unless they don't or can't think voluntarily or on their own.Quote:
Because Kyuubi is not. It's a sentient being sealed in Naruto, it's not a Sharingan that was part of Naruto via genes. Naruto could steal Sasuke's SHaringan and it'd still be his own power because the eye doesn't tell him that he can use Amaterasu or how to use genjutsu, Naruto is the one who has to do it on his own. Sharingan isn't all "hey Kakashi, I know that guy! He's [insert name here], really strong! Here, let me lend you my chakra and boost your abilities beyond godly level!" The fact that I say the Kyuubi's chakra that Naruto stole is part of his power but argue against Kyuubi itself being part of Naruto's power should say a lot.
Well, nowadays that's true. But before the war, Naruto fought more times or for longer without the Kyuubi than Sasuke did without Sharingan.
Neither was Neji, if I recall. But he was still a genius who got better. Though if Naruto did have a better childhood, I'm sure he'd have been much smarter and probably been able to master rasengan with just one hand, but he'd probably not be a genius.Quote:
What's wrong with me defending and praising Naruto and arguin against him (which I'm not even doing)? I never said Naruto sucks, I'm saying, as per manga, that he's not a genius. I'm also saying Kyuubi's not part of Naruto's power and shouldn't be counted as such. Neither is an attack on Naruto.Quote:
He didn't catch Sasuke's skills, he's mainly used the Kyuubi, stamina, and refusal to give up. He's gotten more skilled throughout part I, no doubt, but it's nowhere near Sasuke's.
Naruto was more healed and in better shape than wounded Gaara.
Isn´t learning a technique in such a short time, no matter in what form he learns, a form of genius?
Isn´t perfecting a technique that his genius father never completed, a form of genius?
His teacher also had someone walking him through Sage Mode but why was he not able to perfect but Naruto did?
All these things were not achieved by hard work but because of Naruto´s predisposition that nobody else has.
I don´t know whether we have a different definition of "genius" or that one of us refuses to accept the arguments of the other but i honestly can not see how these things are not considered to be a form of genius/talent. Intelligence and creativity is only one form of genius, in this case it would apply to Sasuke, but there is also a genius that refers to a "natural ability" that make things easier and Naruto undeniably has that, at least in my opinion.
He learned Rasengan in a week yet never developed the control to use it properly (with one hand) until 5 years later.
The fact he went with Jiraiya and learned next to nothing shows he lacked the intelligence to pick up on things. We've seen hard work work for him before so this isn't an excuse. He hit a wall intellectually, and his teacher failed him by focusing on the wrong things.
FRS was actually created over the course of 30-40 years if you count the totality of time Naruto and his clones actually trained. Minato may not have even been alive for 30 years.
He is a master of Sage Mode, there is no doubting that. How he picked up on it so quick seems to come from some form of natural affinity to natural, similar to something Hashirama possessed or so it would seem.
As for the Kyuubi stuff, he had A LOT of help. And much of his progression makes little to no sense as he seemed to just learn stuff out of the blue. But that isn't really important at this point.
The points I made were, that despite his accomplishments, he had deficiencies in everything he did, something geniuses don't have. Naruto isn't a "certain" type of genius, he simply isn't a genius. Why, o why people want to make him out to be one despite how stupid he can be is beyond me.
That's because our objectivity is very different than yours. You put manga-geniuses to a silly pedestal and occupy their description with more than they get credit for. And despite being traditional Geniuses, they all fall behind Naruto constantly, showing how much they're imperfect in their Genius-perfection. Naruto surpassed ALL OF THE SAID GENIUSES from this manga, except Itachi and Madara (mostly my opinion). That makes him a Genius, because he surpassed Geniuses. And no, intelligence is not the only factor that describes one being a genius. You have Google and High school education, I presume. That being said, I still can't fathom the ignorance towards understanding that word.
Last edited by Roman; March 27, 2013 at 10:21 AM.
I just don't consider naturally having some predisposition a sign of being a genius. For example, Neji's not considering a genius just for having the Byakugan, he's a genius for mastering a technique normally not available just by sight. Sasuke and Itachi were geniuses long before they gained the Sharingan. If one is a genius just for having something, then that would apply to everyone who has something and undermine the whole genius argument. I mean, Ee has stamina comparable to a Bijuu, but I doubt anyone would call him a genius because of that. Genius and talent aren't mutually exclusive. Hidan and Gai are pretty talented, but they're not geniuses like Shikamaru and Kakashi.
If Naruto and Sasuke both trained with Orochimaru, at equal power, then Sasuke would be much stronger than Naruto after two years. Because Sasuke is a genius (manga says so), he'd learn things faster and be able to master more variety of skills than Naruto, going from step 1 to step 20 in half a year. Naruto is not a genius (as per manga), so explaining won't help as much, he has to do stuff. It would likely take him a long time to learn things and master more skills, he'd be goin from step 1 to step 20 in about 3/4 of a year at least, even though he's worked hard. Orochimaru would either have to really dumb things up for Naruto or show him like Jiraiya did.
However, if you include clones and Naruto knowing about their abilities after Orochimaru explains, then Naruto would likely get to step 20 in less than half a year, most likely.
Based on the manga, this is in my opinion the difference between them and what would happen. Naruto's stamina and durability would enable him to last a long time training, but Sasuke's ability to understand and deduce would allow him to master skills faster.
And Naruto has surpassed all those genius because he has one thing they all lack. The Kyuubi. His level of power now has to do with the Kyuubi, and the help he received taming it from his mother, father, and Bee. Without those 3 people, he would have never achieved the power he has today. And, without the Kyuubi itself, he would still be behind a majority of those people. He has surpassed them in power alone, hardly in skill and certainly not in intelligence.
You seem to believe that power = genius and that has never been the case. Genius is an intellectual property, that much has been agreed by those not only in the manga, but the all the scientists and psychologists who study it in the real world. It just so happens that with genius, most genius' are able to attain great power. Naruto on the other hand, achieved great power because he was given a great power in the Kyuubi by his father. He was then hand held through is training, had his ass saved on multiple occasions, and had two people help him beat the Kyuubi into submission.
So, before you go claiming he has "surpassed" all these geniuses, understand how and in what ways he has surpassed them.
Edit: I am not trying to take away from his accomplishments, because even with help Naruto has achieved what others haven't, and has become more powerful than everyone save Madara and Hashirama, but to simply saying he is a genius because he is more powerful is false. There are circumstances that led to his power and skills, and those circumstances take away from his accomplishments. If you deny that, then you are denying the facts of the manga.
Last edited by Delbi; March 28, 2013 at 09:54 AM.
Even without Kyuubi, Naruto proves to be a more than worthy opponent to any traditional Genius. You greatly underestimate his other powers which your degree in any school doesn't cover. Naruto is a beast only with Sage Mode. Add Kyuubi to that and you have probably the most powerful shinobi ever. Jiraiya, the legendary Sannin whose powers were probably on par with Hokage is the sole proof of that. His disciple perfected it even more to the ways he couldn't. Blatantly downplaying Naruto like that is preposterous. While Kyuubi gives him more powers, he's also the reason to "justify" his weakness to prove others' superiority. Nothing more, nothing less.
That's where you're wrong, again. A person doesn't need to be a Genius only because his intellect. That word is also associated with talent which is again associated with various other properties at which one can excel and exceed majority of people. I don't deny that his parents helped him tame him, of course they did. But removing Kyuubi from the equation, Naruto is a talented shinobi, even though he wasn't shown as such in the beginning of the manga. An ordinary shinobi wouldn't master a Rasengan in a week and certainly wouldn't invent an above S rank technique alone. Just because he wasn't bragged about doesn't mean he's not talented. Which in this case helps a lot of people to elaborate why he isn't a Genius level shinobi. But hey, you got your opinion, and I got mine.
I'm not saying he is Genius because he's more powerful. His feats prove that. But of course, he became more powerful throughout time, yeah. The fact of the manga is that Naruto surpassed 12 years of Sasuke's superiority in like half a year. I'm only throwing an example here. Facts are facts.
He could only best geniuses like Haku and Neji at the time in combat thanks to the Kyuubi.
The Kyuubi allowed him to do the Kage Bushin training. Without which, he would have never created FRS. He also didn't create FRS alone, he had help from both Kakashi and Tenzou.
Naruto did not master the Rasegan in a week, he learned how to do it his own way without mastering it. To master it, you need to create it with one hand, and his Rasengan was still small compared to the mastered one his father made. So let's not make up facts here. He hasn't mastered it until recently.
The Kyuubi has also kept him alive and strong. He would have been killed by Sasuke without it, would have lost the use of his right arm without it (thanks to using FRS incorrectly against Kakazu), etc etc etc. It's constant aid to him in battle as something that he wasn't born with takes away from his own accomplishments. The fact that he needed a lot to help to tame the damn thing also goes against his accomplishments.
Naruto's one great feat of talent, is his ability to use Sage Mode I will give you that. But talent alone does not denote genius. If that was the case, the majority of the strong ninja's in this manga would be considered geniuses because they all have talent. We know that is not the case, unless you want to denote every ninja who's been given a little screen time a genius.
And Naruto surpassed Sasuke's superiority thanks the Kyuubi. Without that, he'd still be beneath him and many other geniuses by leaps and bounds.
Even if we gave him the benefit of the doubt of having parents, and paying attention in school, he would have never been able to create something like FRS as he obviously lacks the intelligence (schooling and a better up brining would not make up for how dense he is, a trait he shares with his mother), and would not have the stamina to compact 30-40 years of training into a a week or so.
Does Naruto have talent? Obviously. Does that talent make him a genius? No, not at all. Konoharmaru has talent, but I don't see anyone calling him a genius. And he has zero excuses unlike Naruto.
Hinata obviously has talent, so does Ino. Are they geniuses? No, not all.
Zabuza, a master of killing with immense talent. Ever once called a genius? No.
Jiraiya, massive amounts of power talent, and knowledge. Ever called a genius? No, in fact he was the complete opposite.
Why o why you try and make Naruto to be a genius despite all the evidence to the contrary is beyond me.