Well, there is a difference between the idea of hitsugaya never becoming as strong as the captain commander and him having an innate weakness against temperatures that high. The scenario so far suggests that even if hitsugaya was yamamoto's equal in terms of reiatsu the fact that high temperatures melt ice still puts hitsugaya at a disadvantage against good old yamamoto. Conservative estimates put yamamoto at the several thousand years old and hitsugaya at barely 100, there is no particular reason for hitsugaya to not be able to reach yamamoto's level in several thousand years if it is plausible for him to catch up to shunsui within the next 100.
Last edited by Chojin; February 18, 2013 at 03:17 PM.
You are acting like toshiro went to a spot and brought it to absolute zero, then yama went in and said bankai, though he would be dead before he could. Hey would both use their power to push their Bankai. Toshiro is not an ice block, he's a shinigami using reiatsu that pushes the weather and temperature, cc is not the sun. Post the last time if you wish, doesn't make you correct.
Proving bankai power based on real science alone is pointless.
Last edited by Sanadan; February 18, 2013 at 03:24 PM.
Ok let's answer that question then.. sighs.. Aizen's shikai weakness was exploited by Gin. And explained as well. You touch the sword you escape the illusion. Yamamoto could have sliced him when he was stabbed by Aizen. It is almost perfect but not 100% perfect - no shikai is perfect. But that is kinda out of topic I am afraid.
Last edited by Chojin; February 18, 2013 at 03:34 PM.
The issue is how each of them applies reiatsu. Hitsugaya is using his reiatsu to either control or create ice/water. Isn't hitsugaya's ice bound to whatever physical limitation ice has much like yamamoto's fire would be bound to whatever limitation fire has?
I deleted a couple of posts, please try to stay on topic and respect other members' opinions.
It is not, you use real science alone to explain how cc wins over equally old toshiro, I could tell you that the counter of aizens shikai makes no sense based on no one having magic swords that are weak to touch. You forget reiatsu, their style of bankai and that it is a manga on this point. You can't point to the sun saying science rules toshiro loses and explain how 15 million degrees does not melt yama.
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Also I am sorry for how clumsy my posts are, I am currently posting on a phone and it is not an easy task unfortunately. I will return at a later time to make my case clear as I see how I can come of as confusing.
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Ok, I will now try and elaborate on my thoughts about a fictional Yama vs Toshiro both in their prime, now remember these are just my theories, I do not claim them to be fact and I may in the end be absolutely incorrect:
Yama does indeed have a very strong reiatsu, as I mentioned I believe this is why he can get the temperature up, it is not only physics from our world that enables him to do this but the fictional force in the Kubo verse. His reiatsu enhances the heat in his armor and blade (I will chose to call his defence armor, basically what it is so it seems fitting) to the level of which heat can not be sustained or created in the real world. An example of this being impossible without reiatsu if we try to fold the two worlds realities togeather is actually the sun.
It is a huge sphere with copious amounts of energy being burned, the fuel that is needed for Yama to keep the heat up if taken from our world would be impossible so reiatsu would have to be accounted for to make up the rest. This is why I say that the laws or limitations of the elements alone does not tell the full tale of how Yama and Toshiro will wage their battle, they are already altered by their own being and made stronger.
The other example is Daiguren Hyōrinmaru, one mere snow flake becomes a huge ice flower. These are not the rules which the elements abide by, I think this is reiatsu at work.
So lets say they do face of, lets say both turn their bankai on at once, full force, Yama going north, south east and west at the same time and Toshiro with his so far unforseen abilities that will have been evolved through thousands of years (or the lenght of Yamas bankai perfection). It will indeed be a 15 million degree difference, this is because the extreme of heat is basically unlimited, the atoms can spin and break at fast rates but extreme cold can only reach the point where the atoms completely stop. This is by going with the rules of physics from our world.
I then add to that the power of their reiatsu, with that the ability of their elements are increased. Hitsugaya has out of practically no water created huge amounts, and this is where he is at now, how old could he be? 100?
Everytime his enhanced chilling effect would attack Yamas increased heating effect the heat would go down a bit and the chilling effect would go up a bit. I am not suggesting that Toshiro would attack in one quick swoop, it would be a repeated or ongoing offence constantly turning down the temperature of Yamamotos Zanka.
Here is where the thug o'war comes into play. While Yamamoto pushes his bankai to the extreme so does Toshiro and both push from their side of the spectrum, so the question in the end would be who pushes harder.
I know 15 million is a lot but do contemplate that the sun here reaches what? *wiki* 56.5 degrees, this is without a huge force pushing it back, it is a long distance for sure but that is the difference in a vacuum where the heat aims to reach its surroundings (along with the athmosphere helping us out). I am suggesting that Toshiro will have so much outward force that he can put the flame out.
If the prognosis is that he can beat Aizen and Shunsui in a 100 years, I am certain he can defeat Yamamoto when he reaches his level of seniority.
I hope this explained better what I was trying to say.
Both Yamamoto's and Hitsugaya's zanpakutos affect the surroundings, Yamamoto's increases the temperature and evaporates the water, Hitsugaya's decreases the temperature and condenses/freezes the water. The way how these zanpakutos work is quite different though, Yamamoto in his bankai becomes the source of extreme heat, radiating it outward, Hitsugaya, on the other hand, controls the weather and affects the temperature on a wide scale, maintaining a similar low temperature within a wide area. In that sense even if they have equal power, it seems to me that Yamamoto has the advantage in close combat whereas Hitsugaya's power can suppress Yamamoto's in distant areas. In other words I don't see how Hitsugaya can gather enough water and freeze Yamamoto in Yamamoto's close proximity, IMHO the heat is too much and the reiatsu is too compressed for Hitsugaya to handle. I think Hitsugaya needs to surpass Yamamoto's reiatsu by quite a margin to put him out which I doubt will ever happen. But since Yamamoto is no longer alive, I guess we can say that he has the potential to be the strongest shinigami sometime in the distant future. IMHO Kenpachi seems to outperform Hitsugaya at similar ages though, if Kenpachi has a powerful zanpakuto, it will indeed be hard to stop him.
Zaraki is another story, hard to tell but if he goes blunt edge forward and Toshiro reaches that power then chances are hes frozen in his track, slowing him down, hindering his movement, that would imo be Zarakis weakness. But then he hasn't even achieved shikai, Kubo only knows what hides in that blade, if that is possible for him, shikai and maybe even bankai then Zaraki would probably knock Toshiro down to spot nr 2 on my list. Kenny has wasted a lot of time holding himself back though, maybe it is too late?
Ichigo has the greatest potential thats a given.
Shinigami Quinchi hollow fullbringer what else is needed? The thing that pisses me off is how he beliettles his ability other caps shikais when there s a problem he has all time shikai good enough instead of exhasting everything the shikai has to offer he goes bankai without batting an eye.
and he never trains to become stronger only when he finds that he cant beat someone he starts training but thats about it.
After him i see zaraki then hitsugaya
Last edited by shaheer; February 22, 2013 at 01:29 AM.
Yes after the last chapter I too put Kenny ahead of Toshiro
btw I would say Bankai wise the Greatest potential holder in my eyes is Aizen and Shinji. Their shikais were Killer, I didnt include them in my top 3 because they already are top tier shinigami ie their potential is realized but not shown.
Illusion-type Zanpakuto are way too difficult to handle, so, I guess they will be deadly in Bankai, as well. Not sure what it could add to Aizen's perfect hypnosis, though.