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Like i stated, KH. If someone is skilled enough with it he should be able to easily evade attacks.Quote:
Even without fully realising what ability it was, Luffy managed to evade Mihawk who is a much better swordsman than Zoro.
Your making it sound like i said Luffy is going to annihalate Zoro or that Zoro is fodder to Luffy.Quote:
I simply said until Zoro shows such and such i believe Luffy is above him.
Was it ever established that the first mate has to be equal in strength to the captain? He can be the strongest swordsman and still be weaker than Luffy.Quote:
The power of evasion differs from user to user. If someone is skilled enough they should be able to avoid all normal attacks IMO.
And my understanding is that if both possess the same level of KH then it should even out or they should be able to strike each other.
And thats a ridiculous analogy, just because someone can do something doesnt mean they will always do it.
Having time to grow still does not equate to him growing.Quote:
Luffy is weak underwater, parts of his body weaken when underwater. Most of the attacks he used were weaker because he needed his hands to exit the bubble.Quote:
We know Luffy gets weak underwater, his body parts included. He even comments that the power of his attacks arent what he wants them to be.
Luffys body parts got weaker, he even says himself that the attacks arent what he wanted them to be like. - whenever he used that snake shot attack.Quote:
I never implied that Zoro cannot defeat Hody on land. Infact they would both have a much easier time with him on Land.Quote:
Zoro would not need to be in a bubble though, he never has commented that he is weaker under water and being underwater doesnt seem to bother him at all.
Here Zoro says that Hyouzu should make a decent warmup. And what ended up happening?Quote:
There is such a thing as misjudging someone...
Edit: And that last bit you added, what are you trying to show me? That Zoro managed to take a pounding of what Luffy took ontop of his own and still stood?
Your making it sound as if he took the whole thing, which even if he did does not change anything other than he has a large threshold for pain and great willpower.
You seem to believe that i think Zoro is weak. Which is not true. And you seem adamant on pointing out that ive missed "some" Arcs. Completely ignoring the possibility that ive already read them. But whatever.
Last edited by jaymizzo; July 09, 2012 at 10:10 AM.
I think it is reasonably safe to assume zoro is able to use at the very least armor and observation haki. Why would luffy suggest he can fight a logia if zoro is unable to use armor haki? I think the scene where luffy, sanji and zoro feel that rookie in shirahoshi's room is enough to suggest all 3 of them can use observation haki.
The very notion that luffy could deflect zoro's swords with haki is plain stupid. How would that even work? As good a protection as haki is there is not a sliver of a chance in hell of luffy blocking the swords like that. Zoro himself is a beast and a haki user capable of cutting anything even without haki to begin, there is nothing even vaguely reasonable about an expectation that luffy would be able to block zoro's haki charged swords with his hardened flesh and haki alone.
Im not disputing that Zoro has Haki since it is solidified in the Manga. And really do not have a problem which ones we assume he has.Quote:
My problem is saying that he is definately much more skilled at them than Luffy is.
I was about to say this that it is basically confirmed that they have that sort of Haki but to what level is yet to be seen.
If this is directed at me then you need to understand one thing.Quote:
I never, not once even implied that Luffy can block or tank Zoros attacks.
Again, i never even tried to say that Luffy can block Zoros attacks. He even admits himself that his BH is not strong enough to even withstand Hodis teeth.Quote:
Im tired of repeating myself.Quote:
P.S. I understand the kind of threat a swordsman would pose to Luffy. Not to mention a swordsman of Zoros caliber and adding in the possibility of him having the BH haki. He could win against Luffy but i would personally give Luffy 6 or 7 wins out of 10 fights.
Last edited by jaymizzo; July 09, 2012 at 10:54 AM.
Well, all we have to go by regarding luffy's actual mastery of haki is that he is the one that the manga has specifically shown using it and that he was trained by Rayleigh. Overall we don't actually have much reason to suggest luffy is overwhelmingly superior to either of them in terms of haki. We don't even know what type of haki luffy is best at nor what type of haki sanji or zoro would be best at for that matter. Not to mention zoro was trained by Mihawk, who should be an insanely powerful and proficient haki user on his worst day, and sanji was trained by 99 newkama kenpo masters. I doubt they would lag in the haki department, they need it just about as much as luffy.
Well, you did say haki would be enough for zoro's attacks to be useless. This could mean one out of two things, that either haki blocks the attacks or that haki alone is enough to dodge all attacks. I admit I thought you meant that luffy would be able to block all attacks with haki because the idea that luffy would just plain dodge all attacks was even more absurd to me.
---------- Post added July 11, 2012 at 06:25 AM ---------- Previous post was July 09, 2012 at 12:53 PM ----------
Quick question that could quickly turn into an argument.
Who has more endurance. Luffy or Zoro?
One of the two. We've got nothing to compare their endurance to, maybe Luffys a bit for his underwater haki elephant gattling, but Zoro still has to be shown struggling against anyone after the TS.
Well, the whole endurance thing depends a lot on different things. Against blunt attacks luffy will always have an advantage as he is made of rubber. Against swords I would argue their situation is the same as neither of them has a weakness or strength against them. Luffy does have his hardened haki skin so perhaps he would have an edge if he has the time to actually harden his skin when defending.
Ahh i see because i was in an argument with some people who think Zoro has more endurance than Luffy because of what happened in Thriller bark.
Well, more than endurance itself I would argue the stuff at thriller bark is more of a matter of will power in which I would argue luffy and zoro are roughly even. I mean, both of them have fought beyond what would be reasonable or even biologically possible a number of times. Luffy was impaled, poison and dehydrated a number of times back at alabasta and zoro has his guts basically split opened and they still kept going at it. Luffy took the damage from his gears, shadows and combined gears while fighting moria and he still kept going. Zoro in turn took a decent bit of damage from fighting ryuma and oz/moria and on top of that took all the damage luffy had accumulated and he still had the sheer nerve to plainly not die on the spot and live on. I would argue the endurance king in the strawhats is ussop though. He survived being hit by a 4 ton hammer as a normal human and he was basically pummeled by the frankies and franky himself and still did not die. And all of that without any actual superhuman capacities. Well, obviously zoro and luffy have taken more damage from their fights in the long run however if we consider the thing in a manner of proportions to their actual physical prowess I would argue ussop at least matches them. Ussop at times does seem randomly immortal lol.
i think luffy vs zoro it will be as madara vs hashirama, they are equals but most likely the one that make a single mistake, he loose the battle..
About the endurance department I think Luffy and zoro are almost equal. But I have to go for luffy. When luffy was brutally poisoned by magellan it was stated by Ivancov that no one would be able to survive that(not saying zoro is weak, he is actually pretty resistant), that only luffy will to live could decide that and luffy survived and iivancov was really surprised with that. And I know the things zoro went through in thriller bark BUT when zoro took all of Luffy's pain Kuma stated (even though he was wrong) that none of the STRAW HATS could survive that wich means that someone really resilient like for instance Akainu could survive, but in the poison matter Ivancov stated that no one (and by that i take even the most resilient ones) could survive that.But that is just my opinion.
As for the luffy vs zoro I say luffy again and not because of powers and haki and that stuff. It's just bacause he is the protagonist so it makes sense that he will be the strongest of all and zoro the second strongest just like roger and raylegh. If not it would be the same as saying (sorry for refering another anime) vegeta would be stronger in the end than goku.
Sorry if i'm bot saying things very well, my english isn't that good
Idk, I kinda have to give it to zoro, not because he's stronger, but just sword advantage, if luffy, had some logia, or some fruit like the gura gura no mi, it's understandable, but he's body doesn't offer any way to tank zoro's attack.
I'm going to be facetious here and say that neither will win. It'd degenerate into a contest to see who can eat and drink the most. Which Luffy would win when Zoro goes the wrong way and ends up on another island by mistake.
In all seriousness? Wait until we can see what they can do when 100% serious vs a decent opponent post-TS and then I'll judge. Before TS, Luffy would've won, mainly due to his random Haki bursts. But post-TS I honestly have no idea. It'd be close one way or the other, but Zoro's blades give him an advantage over Luffy, while Luffy's DF gives him more adaptability over Zoro.
I don't think luffy is the sort to be at a disadvantage due to blades. The two of them already had a fight and luffy did more than well in the not getting chopped to pieces department. Worth noting, neither zoro or luffy have had a really strong enemy since the timeskip. Zoro probably has fought the strongest enemy so far (transformed hyozo) and even then had an easy victory and even ceasar, who has one of the more difficult to handle logias we have seen, was fodder to luffy in the end. Luffy in all likelihood has an edge but IMO it would not be surprising if the two of them are actually equal. Both of them have dreams which are basically equally difficult and to some extent their main rivals (shanks and mihawk) could as easily be equals right now.
The way the manga is portraying them, I'd say a draw, let's not forget that one of the factors that enabled Luffy to win was his will, for his friends, in this fight, there's no such a thing as that