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If we were to take out all bloodline abilities, their taijutsu training would still count, since they would have already improved their reflexes to completely new levels. In that case, Lee, Kimimaro, Neji would be around Sasuke's level more or less.
To be fair, being number one in the academy tells little of how good you really are. Sasuke's exam scores were also excellent and it helped. Lee said Neji was the top Genin taking the Chuunin exams that year, without knowing about Gaara at all. And to be fair again, if they were to fight during Part I, I'd expect Neji to defeat Sasuke, since Byakugan is the perfect counter to Sharingan in a close combat.
Yeah, without his Sharingan Sasuke would've been far short from being able to compete with the more talented combatants, even among the genin. Kimimaro would've stomped him. He required the CS to be able to stave off the Sound Four for moments, he was never even remotely a true threat to them. He didn't nearly beat Gaara, he managed to injure him. The outcome of that fight was never in doubt. He beat Naruto through the use of his Sharingan, and then his CS. Sasuke prior to VotE showed nothing that would put him on par with Lee. As soon as Lee decided to open a gate, he would've stomped Sasuke. At the time of the Chunin exam, I'd venture to say he would've lost to almost half of the fighters in the prelims without his Sharingan or CS; Gaara, Temari, Kankuro, Neji, Lee, Dosu, Shino, and I could easily see Shikamaru, Kiba, Naruto, Hinata, Yoroi, and Misumi being added to the list of possibilities. The genius Sasuke had one battle against a serious opponent without his Shairngan or CS; Haku completely shredded him. Obviously some of these individuals have Kekkeis of their own, but quite a few of them do not; and most of them weren't considered geniuses.
I don't see what your point is here.
Without the free power Minato gave Naruto, Naruto wouldn't have been able to beat Haku or give Orochimaru some trouble when he was attacking Sasuke and Sakura, nor would Naruto have been able to summon Bunta to save him from Gaara. Without Kyuubi, Naruto would have been killed by Sasuke at Valley of the End, ironically due to Naruto not even trying to fight at that time.
Like how Kimimaro stomped Kyuubi Mode Naruto and would have stomped Rock Lee and Gaara had it not been for his illness.Quote:
He was fighting FOUR people on his own, off guard. He didn't at that time have an asspull power like Naruto does. Losing to four people on your own does not make one weak. Hell, each of the genin had difficult time on their own fighting one on one - Shikamaru, Kiba, and Naruto needed help and their asses saved.
And Naruto only beat Gaara because the Kyuubi's chakra helped him summon Bunta and escape that sand coffin. Once again, your point? Sasuke still damaged Gaara with his own power, and unlike Naruto, Sasuke didn't have asspulls to save him. Hell, Gaara even beat Rock Lee, someone who got the better of Sasuke.
Naruto only lasted as long as he did because of the Kyuubi. Sharingan is Sasuke's own power, even if it's bloodline ability. Kyuubi is not Naruto's own, he didn't even work at all to use the power at that time, but Naruto was still able to match Sasuke. Naruto beat Neji solely due to Kyuubi giving him chakra just because Naruto asked for it.Quote:
Naruto throughout the series showed so little that would put him on par with Neji, Sasuke, Gaara, or Haku. Hell, Naruto got beaten by Rock Lee in one move, so much quicker than Sasuke's loss. And Sasuke at the time did NOT use his CS, so I don't know why you're bringing that up.Quote:
Haku did not shred him. Haku didn't even come close to beating Sasuke until Naruto joined the fray. Haku was only able eto take out Sasuke because he laid a trap and targeted Naruto instead.
Why single Sasuke out, but not anyone else? Why not Naruto, who had the Kyuubi handed to him for free, or able to use the power for free without drawbacks? You're seriously underestimating Sasuke here.
Thou dost protest too much, methinks.
Last edited by Impossibility; February 21, 2013 at 12:55 PM.
More importantly, this thread is about bloodline abilities, and Naruto using Kyuubi chakra isn't a bloodline ability by any means. It's an exterior power source he depended on at times, but it has got nothing to do with heritage.
I completely fail to understand how you can claim that Sasuke would lose to so many without his Sharingan, as if his Sharingan is the only thing that can grant him a win. Sasuke wins are more in thanks to his genius and tactics then just having the Sharingan. The very fact that most of Sasuke's fights have been against opponents who had counters for the Sharingan's abilities shows this. No Sharingan would have simply meant that Sasuke would have had to become more resourceful, and given how all the other geniuses are portrayed, that would not have been hard.
Here's the thing about the whole "Sasuke's better than everyone without the Sharingan." When I said he was the best in his class before even having the Sharingan, I wasn't comparing him to everyone while they're using their own bloodline abilities. So starting these lists of ninja he'd lose to while handicapped is a waste of time.
Now, if you want to take Sharingan-less Sasuke and put him up against members of his class sans their own bloodline limits, you'll find that as I stated before, Sasuke is superior to them all. All of them.
As for the scenarios where he's failed to defeat someone without the Sharingan, look at what he DID manage to do.
First off, he beat Haku in a speed match, aswell as in close combat. He also saw through and defeated Zabuza's mizu bunshin. He also took on Gozu and Meizu by himself. There isn't a ninja in his class at that particular time who could've done as well.
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It's also important to remember that the Sharingan does not:
Increase one's chakra reserve
Make them faster
Enhance their proficiency with shape manipulation
Increase physical strength
Sasuke is elite in every aspect I just listed, and it can't be blamed on the Sharingan.
THe Kyuubi was still free and not much of a price considering the power it gave Naruto.
So even if the kyubi is an exterior power source like you want to believe, but still, that power source is useless without his heritage and his bloodline.
Naruto isn't like Mito and Kushina who were specifically chosen because of their unique ability to suppress the Kyuubi. He's shown no sign of their power, and the events surrounding his usage would suggest otherwise.
You worded it wrong, but you're actually right for once. Naruto couldn't be a Jinchuuriki without being born with a body that could contain Kurama, regardless of the kind of seal used. Because he's an Uzumaki, his body was strong enough for the seal to allow Kurama to be placed inside of him. So... his Kurama chakra can actually be blamed on genetics, since he'd never be Kurama's host without Uzumaki heritage. Well, maybe if he was a full-blooded Senju, or one of the other clans that have become ninja who have become jinchuuriki.Originally Posted by marshall313
Housing a Bijuu isn't limited to just the Uzumaki clan. While it takes specific people to become a Jinchuuriki, it's not limited to a certain bloodline. Mito and Kushina weren't special because they could become the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki, they were special because they could take the Kyuubi down and seal it with their own unique chakra. Naruto doesn't have that ability.