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Just to add, no one in sasukes class had kekkei genkai.
The Kyuubi is an exterior power source not because I want it to be, but because it really is. You can take out Kyuubi and make someone else the Jinchuuriki. And there is no such thing that requires the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki to be an Uzumaki. That's because they were perfect candidates that they were chosen. Other than that, a Jinchuuriki generally doesn't need heritage. Bee needed to be a good match for A, and that was the only requirement. Gaara was a weak child and he was chosen as one.
In short, his heritage has nothing to do with his Jinchuuriki status. His father made him one, because he was rather forced to and he believed in his son, not because of huge chakra reserves.
---------- Post added at 07:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 AM ----------
You quoted my post, but again, you're still giving Sasuke fights against ninja who are using clan specific/genetically acquired advantages while Sasuke's are taken from him. And I don't even know how we got into a discussion about Part 2. I made no reference to it whatsoever.Originally Posted by Impossibility
Sasuke is definitively superior to each and every one of his class when he's not using the Sharingan, and they're not using their genetically acquired abilities. You'll bring up Naruto most likely, but his chakra reserve isn't something earned either. It's a genetic gift acquired from his clan. There isn't a single ninja in his class that can stand up to Sasuke in a direct fight with them both fighting at base level. No one.
Though admittedly, even if Chouji had access to Baika no Jutsu while Sasuke was Sharinganless, he'd never lay a hand on him, and Sasuke would likely defeat him easily thanks to his huge size making him easier to hit with ranged jutsu.
This conversation deserves an arena match.
You're not required to be an Uzumaki to be the Kyuubi's jinchuuriki. But Naruto is a good vessel BECAUSE of the fact that he's Uzumaki. If he was from a different clan with the same physical capabilities, it wouldn't change the fact that his ability to be a jinchuuriki is thanks to the circumstances of his genetic makeup.Originally Posted by Hakuteiken
Originally Posted by Hakuteiken
It means everything when those large chakra reserves are directly dependant on his bloodline.
Precisely.Originally Posted by Impossibility
Yep. We compare only what can be acquired through hard work and training. Not being born into a clan who is the only clan that can have access to these abilities/genetic advantages. Speed, strength, intelligence, fighting ability, and un-enhanced stamina. Because if you start pointing out that Chouji has a large chakra reserve, you're till focusing on the luck of genetics. If you bring up Shino's Kikaichu, then you're banking on his family giving him the Kikaichu to become a host as a child (just like how Naruto was given Kurama).Quote:
This is the point, and it's the only way to be fair. Every clan has it's own secrets and it's own genetically acquired handicaps. So, it's impossible to tell who is truly the superior ninja when we have people that are always ready to belittle one's (Sasuke's) accomplishments by blaming them on how powerful the Sharingan is. Or pointing out that Naruto is lucky to have had the Kyuubi placed on him. Or remarking about how clans having secret abilities that no one else can use gives them an unfair advantage. So, we rectify this by stripping EVERYONE of EVERYTHING and putting their base abilities on display. And it is here where Sasuke dwarfs everyone in his class.Quote:
This argument is so stupid it isn't even funny,
I hate the idea of taking away anything someone wasn't born with or didn't acquire via training or wasn't given. Frankly, we can only speculate what Naruto would have been like if he wasn't given the Kyuubi, or if Sasuke didn't have the Sharigan. I hate getting into it because these arguments rely more on opinion than fact. IMO, you take away the Kyuubi from Naruto as he is now and leave him with Sage Mode to fight EMS, or even MS Sasuke and he gets his ass handed to him in hand basket. Simple fact is, he'd be a powerhouse but Sasuke simply has techniques he can't counter. Likewise, Sasuke currently stands no chance against Naruto.
On to my next point.
If we take away the genetic gifts everyone is given, then everyone is exactly the same. Genetics give you every trait you have, and hard work and training merely brings those traits out to their fullest. Sasuke's ability to be fast, and his intelligence are all a product of his genetics. Same as Chouji's weight, Naruto stamina, Shikamaru's brain, and Hinata's tits. All genetics.
Sasuke's physique, his body and subsequently the strength speed and reflexes he has from it, are all products of genetics. Humans are only as fast and as strong as their genetics allow them to be, we have limits. Aside from his Kekkai Genkai, Sasuke's normal genetics are above and beyond most humans.
How do we know this? His training for 1 month with Kakashi.
In one month, Sasuke not only learned his element, mastered chidori, but he also attained a level of speed Gaara's sand couldn't keep up with.
How does that prove him to be genetically superior? Because it took Lee YEARS of training, ONLY taijutsu and his fitness to achieve that speed. Mind you, this kid trained himself to near death, he wore weights everywhere he went. Not to mention, Lee had achieved that speed being a year older and more developed physically than Sasuke.
Lee himself was so shocked Sasuke did this, he could only mumble something along the lines of "So this is the potential of a genius".
Larger chakra reserves than usual don't grant you a skill, a technique or anything in that regard. Are the Uzumaki really that special, anyway? Any descendant of the Sage's younger son inherits his life force, anyway.
Oh, and just for fun, even if you just consider 'base abilities' such as speed, strength, and intellect, Sasuke would probably lose to Lee, Shino, Kiba, Neji, and Dosu; to name a few individuals from his age group.
This is what I meant. Even after reminding you twice that we're talking about Sasuke at base level against people in his class at base level, you start pulling out ninja that have had extra years of experience. I made it a point to say Sasuke's class multiple times. There's no way you could still make the mistake after that unless you really, REALLY wanna find people that can contend with Sasuke's level of speed and skill to prove your point.Originally Posted by Impossibility
Kakashi's Moniker 'Copy Ninja' is handed to him all thanks to his ability to over-use Sharingan's copy-ability to unfathomable proportions. Without it, he will not be as famous and versatile as he is now. Let's not even throw his precious Kamui away now. Itachi without his Sharingan doesn't seem too apt to be called a highly skilled ninja as his arsenal isn't as large as you are simply assuming on your own.
Is this a bash thread? Because even without Sharingan Sasuke is the most versatile Raiton user in the entire manga and was at the top of his class, people like Shikamaru considered him as a role-model. Naruto has no prowess as a ninja, stop kidding yourself, as Chakra doesn't count as a Ninja ability. It's basically a birth-gift due to Uzumaki's superior gene-pool. If that was the case, then only god knows this guy needs intelligence to fill in the multiple blanks.
P.s: Mei has two KGs, which allow her to use her abilities. People should keep that into consideration as well.
Last edited by shahdan; February 22, 2013 at 04:15 PM.