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Secondly, I wish people would read. Whitebeard died, yes. You can't simply say 'WB died in the war. Shanks lived. Shanks > Whitebeard'. Remember when Luffy and Shanks were in the sea together and a sea king attacked them? Luffy came out unharmed, Shanks came out injured. Does that make Shanks weaker than infant Luffy who'd literally hours before got the Gomu Gomu fruit?
Secondly, as I've already stated, Whitebeard never really wanted to survive the war. He wanted to go out in a Gol D. Roger blaze of glory...
You know what? It's 10 to 5 in the morning, I'll get some sleep then come back and post links - and I'd appreciate it if people would respond to my points rather than just saying 'Shanks has good Haki, Whitebeard died, Shanks would win.' If you make an irrefutable point, or even refute my points, I'd happily change my opinion (despite what some of the commenters in the Enel/BB fight may think.) But the thing I don't get is when people just ignore all the points made up until now, and then comment saying who they voted for...
And Arashi, remember when Usopp really wanted to leave the crew, and he fought Luffy and won, being clearly more determined? No? Me neither :P Willpower counts for a lot in One Piece, but I think the Skill Rock-Paper-Scissors comes into it a lot too, especially with Enel (who was only beaten because his attacks were completely ineffective.) Akainu had the DF Advantage when he killed Ace, Buggy had the DF Advantage against Killer in this tournament and so went through...
I wish you read, rather than disregarding the point made, I see why people wouldn't care of your point, when you don't understand them at all.
---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------
He wanted to save Ace, he lost Ace, he wanted to take out BB, BB and crew took him out, where's the glory in that? Face it, WB showed greatness through strength but not in winning, Shanks respects the result, and did what he could to stop the madness, which he did successfully. Had they fought, I'm pretty sure of the outcome.
@Kazu-Sama Thank you. Really, thank you.
Let's look at the rules for this tourney..:
ABOUT THE TOURNAMENT
All characters were grouped randomly. Avoid critiques about the groups. Feedback on the Hangout Thread.
Because the plot is moving forward and certain characters are being developed, they can only be considered as they have been "shown" (pic or text) capable of in the manga, except for the few characters that have been given a limit.
All fights will happen in a neutral place, no contestant has any advantage or disadvantage over his/her opponent.
So we are to base our judgments based on only how the characters have been shown capable of in the manga, and we should judge them as if they were in a neutral place.
First We can look at the Major Feats of each guy..
WB: Titled "Strongest Man in the World", Rival/ Friend of Roger, Yonkou, Considered the closest to OP, Guardian of FI. Etc.
Shanks: Pirate King's Crewmate, Mihawk's old duelling partner, Yonkou, Pirate who inspired Luffy to become pirate..
Beyond some pretty simple lists things get really complicated, there are many things to consider. WB was aging and was ailing in health, there is no question that based on that his overall power is compromised. Of course we know both of them have exceptionally powerful Haki of all types, but the specifics of their strengths and overall talent is unknown. Then there's the Gura Gura no Mi to consider and the whole Shanks only has one arm now to ponder..
I don't think such a fight, in a neutral location would be a quick one.. I expect we would see a battle that would surpass that of Kuzan and Sakazuki..
For me this makes me imagine a battle between the two of them prior to WB arriving at the war.. Maybe somewhere neutral in the NW????
The first thing that comes to mind is that if WB didn't have his heart condition this would be a bloodbath. For me it's only that WB is ailing that makes this a battle.
But that's the case.. The World's Strongest Man is old and sick.. However the amount of damage it took and the number of attackers involved shows that regardless WB's endurance is just amazing. Is would take even a Haki master a great deal of effort to stop an angered WB. Shanks does have speed, and the Haki to even stop Akainu's punch. It's not very clear cut based on fighting ability and Haki if either has an advantage.. Shanks' speed is likely nullified by WB's endurance and their Haki seems evenly matched. What concerns me is that there is still the Gura Gura ability to consider.. I really think that a few timely Gura powered slams could be the deciding factor. IF (big if) WB was able to connect with a few decent Gura Gura powered attacks, that instantly becomes a major tipping point in my judgement.
It really seemed like before the war WB was still capable of defending his title as Yonkou. I don't think that the war was a testament to WB's weakness, rather his might.
This is a complicated fight to consider, but it really does seem like it's WB's fight to lose...
But if this battle drags on too long or WB has a heart attack Shanks has an advantage.....
So I voted WB, then I unvoted
and voted Shanks, then I unvoted again.. Cried.
Voted Wb Again, and then yet again unvoted. Cut Myself and Puked on the Floor.
and then voted WB.
If this was a most influental, or most badass tourney Shanks owns WB anyday. Shanks represents the inherited will of Roger passing to Luffy.. He is the cornerstone of the story. His power and position will echo deeper than even the legendary story of WB, for he found the future PK and lead him to his destiny...
Alas this is a battle tourney and the few places these two aren't even WB has a slim edge...
There's no they both lose, Shanks loses the battle.... But the moment the battle ends WB turns to walk away, and dies from his injuries button..
TKO to WB.
If you read this diatribe, thanks...
Last edited by Poneglyph420; March 04, 2013 at 01:19 AM.
Funny though, how you know of what sports they play, so technically they're not someone you could not recognized, better yet the logic behind it.
---------- Post added at 02:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------
O btw, I'm a troll, I had voted WB before I started on Shanks > WB, only a few people came up with good points to defend WB, none tried to insist WB is greater in overall strength. Seriously, a lot may have doubted WB. And as I say, I would not be surprised if Shanks win. I seriously don't think Shanks could win.
A few seemed to understand the nature of the war, it was a battle royale, tides turn just from a simple distraction. 1 on 1 fights, are the strongest characters bread and butter, their forte and what not. WB in his condition, showed he had the ability to take them all strong guys by himself, but it was too much for him, due mainly to his condition. The war afterall was made and pre determined by Sengoku, not to mention all the advantages the Marines+Shichibukai had. WB had to worry for his crew, for Ace even Luffy. He faced marines like alone, without ordering support.
Now imagine a worry free environment, where you can fight out to your hearts content, I don't see Shanks winning against WB, even if his heart aches at times, and no there's in no way Shanks strength is lowered with him having one arm, just saying that 1on1 there's no one who could take on WB/Roger.
Now, as promised, let's look at WB's strength shown in the Manga. With Evidence.
First of all, http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...56/c550/9.html claims that the marines summoned their ENTIRE might. Remember when the marines were worried about 11 pirates, all of whom had bounties of over 100 million, AND were going in to avenge the beating up of the World Nobles - people who were descended from those who first created the World Government, and people who are all fantastically wealthy - and so sent in one admiral, a couple of pacifistas, and some marines, and were surprised so many escaped? To beat Whitebeard, they sent Sengoku, the Fleet Admiral. They sent all 3 Admirals, 13 (I think, I may have counted wrong) Vice Admirals - bearing in mind Virgo was a rear admiral, and even post-timeskip he was considered pretty strong by the Strawhats. Smoker also serves to back up the power of vice admirals - being able to easily beat Luffy who had not long before beaten the likes of Rob Lucci. There were an army of Pacifistas. There were over 100,000 marines present, Garp, Hero of the Marines, and 5 of the Shikibukai - although Sengoku was so worried that when Jinbe refused to participate he was thrown into Impel Down. That alone should stand in testament to WB's strength.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...7/c552/16.html - Sengoku, fleet admiral of the Marines and therefore incredibly strong, warning all 100,000 men there that the opponent could potentially destroy the world.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...57/c553/4.html shows Aokiji, an admiral and no slouch in combat, taken out in one move without Whitebeard even looking at him.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...57/c556/3.html Vice Admiral Ronse, one step below Admiral, and a giant, attacks WB from behind. It doesn't end well. Just a surprise attack alone isn't enough to even damage Whitebeard.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...7/c562/15.html shows the first bit of damage WB receives. It's a massive sword through the chest, in an attack from an ally so surprising it breaks the OP world colour. Big-ass sword stab through the stomach, liver, and what looks like up into the heart. By someone who can hold off Marco the Phoenix. Rather than getting weaker, it makes WB angry. Something I only just noticed, too, is here (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...58/c563/7.html) Squard is saying 'It's a miracle you allowed me to get a blow in. Not 'It's a miracle I hit you.' He specifically states WB ALLOWED him to get the stab.
Here (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...8/c563/13.html) WB basically states he's going to die for the next generation. He was old and dying, like Gol D. Roger. He died so others could take over, not because he was weak.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...58/c564/8.html - Whitebeard finds he has a giant in his way. Rather than OHKO the vice captain (not exactly weak), he flips the freaking island just to throw the giant off balance before OHKOing him. With a hole in his chest, and a terminal illness, he still manages it with no signs of effort.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...58/c567/6.html Whitebeard gets frozen by Aokiji, but instantly frees himself. Everybody else that was frozen was either dead or incapacitated for ages, and helpless. WB just broke out like it was nothing.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...8/c567/13.html shows WB stopping a speed-of-light blow on Luffy. Rayleigh reacted. WB reacted. Marco managed to tank the blow, rather than dodging it. WB, having been stabbed and frozen, managed to do that.
http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...58/c568/8.html - Whitebeard vs Akainu - he, after being stabbed and frozen, fights evenly with Akainu - although by the looks of this (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...58/c568/2.html) page, Akainu was putting a lot more effort into it. Even badly injured, it took his illness to stop him curbstomping Akainu, so he gets hit.
Then the fight for a bit, WB gets more injured while recovering from his illness - he's already been stabbed once and frozen, then punched by a mad Akainu. Apparently, there's no kill like overkill to the marines, so they stab and shoot him some more (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...58/c569/8.html), then shot by Kizaru. Then, his comrades do something WB doesn't want. So WB stops them (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...8/c572/10.html)
The WB gets really angry. Akainu, the guy that had killed Firefist Ace, was stronger than the likes of Marco or Jinbe, and is one of the strongest OP characters we've seen, had this (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...58/c575/5.html) happen to him.
Then WB does this (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...58/c575/7.html).
Then this: (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...58/c576/8.html). Two of the strongest characters in the OP world, taken out in back-to-back succession, easily, by WB after he'd been stabbed 267 times, shot by just under 152 bullets and 46 cannonballs, frozen, hit with Akainu's fist, and shot with lasers
Now, for manga proof of the reasons why I think Shanks - while undoubtably strong - is inferior.
Shanks was said to spar with Mihawk, right? Well, http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...7/c562/10.html, it looks like people of Vista's Calibre can spar with Mihawk. Not both going all out, Mihawk does have the strongest swordsman title for a reason, but just sparring with Mihawk doesn't instantly mean he's as talented with a sword.
Secondly, I've seen the argument 'Shanks blocked Akainu's fist, WB couldn't.' http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...8/c567/16.html. WB not only blocks it, he blocks it without touching it and still manages to get an awesome fistbump out of it. 'Nuff said.
Thirdly, when shanks does arrive Marineford looks like this (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...58/c580/9.html). A hell of a lot of marines are either dead or unconcious (remember, there have been 2 massive Conquorer Haki blasts so far). Akainu was beaten up. Kizaru had just finished a series of battles. Aokiji too. Garp had been headbutted by Luffy and pinned to the ground by Sengoku. The Pacifistas were mostly gone. Boa, Doflamingo and Croc were running around causing mayhem. Mihawk left since he was there to fight WB, not Shanks. BB was fleeing, having gotten the Gura Gura no mi. Marco was leaving, with the remains of the WB pirates. The marines mobilised to fight WB. WB had died. Another Yonkou would have, if Shanks is anywhere near as strong as WB, easily wiped out the last of the Marines. And Sengoku isn't an idiot, he knew this. So yes, when Shanks arrived, the war stopped. But were Kaidou to arrive, the war would stop. Were Big Mom to arrive, the war would stop. Heck, I reckon that if the Fishmen Army that the strawhats fought were to arrive, Sengoku would call a truce.
Shanks may potentially have better Stamina and Haki than WB, but WB has better endurance for tanking blows, and his destructive power is unmatched.
I'm not implying Shanks is weak, because he isn't. But what I am saying is that based on what we've seen, and the circumstances behind the WB war, there is a lot of evidence of WB being incredibly strong and nothing comparable that Shanks has done. Yes, I know Shanks would beat most other people in the world - I'm not denying that there are maybe 1 or 2 people in the world who can compete with him. But when WB was alive, he was top dog. And based on what we've seen, with good reason...
TLR - WB Kicks ass
EDIT: I have a lot of other things I'm doing IRL, but if you guys want non-marineford evidence for either the strength of WB or why I think Shanks wouldn't win, please ask and I shall deliver.
Last edited by Kazu-Sama; March 04, 2013 at 09:40 PM.
Too busy to dissect the whole post, but Marco negates Squard's comment later on here: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_p...8/c563/10.html, showing that it wasn't a miracle, WB's health had made him vulnerable.
To be honest I am not sure....
-In the manga WB has been called the strongest man in the world. This can be reasonably backed up if we consider WB did some pretty awesome ass kicking to a couple of admirals through his rampage in marineford.
-In turn the manga has also said shanks was said to stand on equal ground to WB. The brief skirmish we saw between them is less than an indication of how they would compare to each other for that matter.
-Both seem to be proficient with the use of haki at least.
- WB does have the confirmed strongest paramecia.
-Shanks in turn was in the past even with mihawk which should be relevant....
-WB was past his prime and was sick by the time the war started. He even took a stab to the gut before he could properly rampage...
-Shanks is either at or getting to his prime....
I guess that if we consider that WB did take a stab to the gut it could be said that what we saw is not necessarily all WB could have done during the war. Overall due to a lack of feats and points of comparison I will go with WB, its only fair (and not surprising in the least).
WB won - although there were only 2 votes in it... Does that mean this was joint closest victory with Enel/BB or was there a single-vote win I forgot about?
Whitebeard retains his title of 'Strongest Man' even after death!
This is finished and Kazu finally succeded at betting the victor. It's a good day, and i hope you forget about Enel losing against Teach, man.
Whoah, I voted WB, but I unvoted, just curious about it.
You can still make Shanks win by unvoting, if you've voted WB lol
I could make a tie by unvoting WB, lmao. But then there would be a risk if more people unvoted.