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Killua saying Pitou need to use aura to beat Gon now implies Pitou COULD do it. Of course Pitou isn't crazy enough to do that, not to mention Kite was there who certainly isn't going to lose to auraless Pitou, but just the possibility exists.
It's pretty much impossible to lure any of the Royal Guards outside of their radius. They're not physically capable of making a conscious decision to leave the area they're supposed to guard unless ordered by the Queen/King. When Pitou was fighting Morel's puppets, Pitou was saying he wish they'd attack head on because he can't leave his post willingly.
Actually I thought about Feitan's ability some more, if you just put simple physics, it's basically worthless. From the picture we can see Feitan projected the sun at a spot roughly equidistant from himself and Zanza. Heat drops off x^1/3 as a function from the source, so if Zanza merely thought 'this looks dangerous, better back off' and say doubled the regular standoff distance, then Pain Packer would do 1/8 the damage compared to normal. Since Zanza didn't even die instantly we can assume 1/8 the damage would just give her a nasty sunburn or something, and then Feitan would probably die since he just used his big move and was already pretty injuried. Feitan must have aimed the sun at the wrong spot when Phinx talked about how he almost got killed the last time he tried to watch the ability, because the laws of physics works heavily against this ability.
Realistically Feitan's ability is probably meant to be some kind of last ditch retaliation attack, except the fact that you can see it from a mile away and give enough time for the nearest civilians to evacuate, so unless your opponent is just going to stand there and watch you charge up this move, there's basically no way the damage could connect. Again, just merely backing off a reasonable distance would completely shut down this move.
Feitan doesn't like to be injured,his reactions when he was hurt proved that.And it seems he has different types of attacks.For me,Pain Packer shows that he is spiteful.
The best way that ability would work is trying to punish an overly aggressive attacker with a last ditch counterattack. That is, if the attacker saw this move and actually pursued him he'd get burned even harder and flat out die so it's worth the risk. Note that given the time it takes to charge this up (plenty of time for everyone else to run away) it's still possible the attacker simply killed Feitan before he's done charging, but this seems to be a move that'd be used against a stronger opponent so you got to take some chances. Still, a cautious opponent who simply backs off would easily survive Pain Packer.
I imagine the Phinx/Feitan encounter must go like this:
Feitan: Arrrgh! Now I'm getting angry!
Feitan: (Phinx, you should get out of here)!
Phinx: Huh? I don't speak your language, Feitan.
Feitan: (Oops I aimed the sun directly above your head on accident)!
Phinx: English please?
Sun explodes and Phinx barely survives.
Well nothing precludes Feitan from moving while he casts pain packer so he could probably detonate the thing at close range if he wanted. Furthermore, he should be able to evade attacks and attack himself in that state.
As for the ability sucking because it requires nen on defense, since the armor is conjured, the armor only locks up part of the user's nen pool and not his rate of discharge, unlike Bomber's little flower where the attack and defense components appear concurrently.
Of course, this contradicts Razor's power-up from cancelling the clones but there are two things to note: firstly, the clones are maintained by emission rather than conjuration which in contrast, may further require constant "upkeep" i.e. to maintain their form, they need to be supplied with a constant flow of nen; and secondly, the clones probably require constant use of manipulation nen in order to function so the power-up may be a consequence of that instead.
Or possibly Togashi didn't think that far.
Last edited by mousiehamster; March 03, 2013 at 09:56 AM.
Feitan is part of a popular group of allegedly powerful human beings fighting against an Ant nobody will likely remember what her name is. Obviously the whole Ant detour for the Spiders is more or less fan service so it's not supposed to be rigorous. That episode is just basically various members of the Spider doing cool moves and own a bunch of guys no one will possibly care about, and even then it was surprisingly tough for some of them.
For movement while channeling Pain Packer, aura is a zero sum game. If you're projecting some special material to block the heat and an immense source of heat energy that means all your other stats go way down during the time you're channeling that. You might not be immobile but it's not like your combat stats would be anything worth mentioning. The first way to deal with Pain Packer is simply kill Feitan before he's completed it. Given there's enough time for people to run away flailing their hands you can tell that his ability does not activate instantly.
For his armor, if you want to get into 'special material' the entire premise of aura is dumb. That is, if Feitan projected special fire-retardant material as opposed to Gensuru who obviously puts exactly enough AP on his hands to block his own damage, then what's stopping an enemy from doing exactly the same thing? Further if all you're doing with aura is making up 'special material' you should just spend your time buying up poisoned weapons. Even a taser is quite effective in this regard (very few human characters resist electricity). I'm going to assume his armor operates on the same principle as Gensuru, because otherwise any ability can be explained by 'special material'. The point Kurapika's master makes with Materialization is weak if all you're trying to do is project 'special items' that do relatively mundane things (like killing people or blocking damage) because they're not going to be more special than stuff you can already buy in the world of HXH.
I'm going to assume Feitan can't just hurl the sun like a projectile and half of the standard 'standoff' distance is about the limit of as far as the 'sun' will travel before it detonates. In light of that, the only way the ability is deadly is if you stand still which is exactly what Zanza did. If you simply charge at Feitan, given he's already hurt you presumably have an upper hand somewhere to hurt him in the first place. His ability takes a nontrivial time to activate, and since he has to spread out his aura on offense (sun) and defense (to not burn himself, but presumably the armor doesn't protect from normal damage or that'd just be cheap) you've a good shot at taking him out. Of course, the better solution is simply back off since his sun obviously dissapiates heat in 3 dimensions, leading to x^3 dropoff as you back away from the center. Note that this isn't necessarily planning against his ability in mind. In HXH there are two schools of thought against unknown abilities:
1. Press on the attack and kill them before they finish use their ability.
2. Backoff and see what it does.
Pain Packer is extremely vulnerable to #2, and even #1 has a good chance of working (because Feitan presumably is already in worse shape than his opponent). Yes Zanza picked 3: Stand still and watch. But that's pretty much never the right choice and we can only assume she chose do due to her lack of experience.
Last edited by Phantron; March 03, 2013 at 07:15 PM.
i think feitens shield wich work as a fire-retardant material varies form the degree of heat of the rising sun ...
in other words ...the stronger the sun is ... the more protective the shield become..
and that's something that you can't find and purchase and even if you can ... am pretty sure it would be painful to wear and walk with it your whole life .
and for his Achilles heel... that he become defensless while charging his sun ..i think the shield is thick enough to protect his body in those 3 or 4 secs from the attacks of his foe...and don't forget he is fifth in the strength list including ubo so his body is quite strong.
so feitens ability isn't that dumb after all.
Last edited by zzigg; March 04, 2013 at 07:29 PM.
Despite its impressive name, the heat generated isn't really that much. There's obviously enough time for Zanza to suffer as she burned so it's not like the temprerature was so high it can just incinerate you instantly. So the temperature is comparable to a normal fire. Well the suits regular fireman uses can withstand the heat from a fire by definition, so Feitan would be better off with a firesuit and a flamethrower. Yes it'd be clumsy to wear such a thing but again think about how much time and effort it takes to learn an ability, not to mention you can only learn so many abilities. Buying a flamethrower suddenly doesn't seem like a bad idea.
The suit isn't going to protect him from physical damage. If it does that means the fire damage can also be 'tanked' by projecting more aura since you're using aura to create something that absorbs fire + direct damage. Almost by definition whoever he is fighting when he has to use this ability is stronger than him (he needs to take significant damage to activate his ability), so that guy can just tank the same attack by the virtue of being stronger than Feitan. But if he's relying on special damage (heat) then that means his suit is just equivalent of a suit a fireman would use, which obviously isn't going to do much good at withstanding damage from someone stronger than him, so he's obviously very vulnerable when attempting to use this ability.
Unlike Gensuru's ability, Feitan's ability is arguably even worse because it's not even an effective 'beat the weak' since the activated condition is him taking damage. This implies it would actually be pretty useless against weak opponents (he should not take damage). Yet against strong opponents the apparent activation time is an eternity in HXH where details of a fight are measured in tenths of a second. It's quite obvious that Feitan's ability took time scale on the order of seconds to activate (otherwise it'd be completely impossible for everyone to simply evacuate before he finishes his ability. Note that Zanza is almost certainly faster than a considerable number of Spiders too so if every Spider can evacuate on time, so can she).
but it does not varies form the degree of heat of the rising sun ...since he himself don't know how powerful his sun will be until he get injured enough
so his ability automaticly make the shield more protective depending on how strong the rising sun is
Quote:i think he can reach a temperature that normally don't exist but in deep down earth ...for example if he lost an arm like what happened to kaito he can achieve that high temperatureQuote:
yet the few secs that take to generate is really a disadvantage
that's why i said may be his ability has something to do with his mentality feiten is a cold blooded murderer an torture expert...may be he find some pleasure in getting tortured and returning the painQuote:
well he can just let his guard down to get himself injured and then enjoy the view....and if he is fighting someone weak he has simply the enhanced hand to rip his head offQuote:
and i agree that the time that take to charge is really a fatal failing maybe togashi made it in purpose so korapica will take advantage of it
To be fair most of the techniques in HXH aren't really that rigorous to the 'risk = reward' system. For example Killua's lightning is just pure beatdown. Gon's jajaken does Ko level output without the risk. That is, we see Gon got hit while charging multiple times, even though we're told if you do Ko and someone hit you anywhere you didn't have Ko the likely outcome is instant death. Feitan's ability falls on the opposite spectrum in that it's apparently a lot of risk for no obvious gain, but if there was a serious fight it tends to get magically balanced. Otherwise nobody can possibly even defeat Killua. I mean he's so fast a Royal Guard can't even keep up with his speed at all. How can any human possibly deal with this? Royal Guards can tank otherwise fatal hits on vulnerable body parts (neck, head, whatever) but no way a human can possibly do that.
Feitan's ability might work on an overly aggressive attacker, and since he has to take damage first anywa, it's kind of implied his opponent is stronger than him. So yes it's risky (the attacker can simply kill you first) but you're already behind so maybe the risk is worth it. Of course he'd get burned on someone like Ilumi or even Killua who is most certainly going to back off against an unknown move and then all they'd get is a nasty sunburn and Feitan will likely die after spending all his aura for a counterattack that did nothing.
That said, the Spiders don't really strike me as having good abilities in general for combat and in particular they don't seem to have ability geared to defeat superior opponents. This is consistent with their tendency to travel in massive groups for people of their power. That is, we can see that powerful humans in the world of HXH tend to travel alone or in very small groups, but Spiders routinely travel with a 5+ man party. Given that they're of course very strong baseline, it's possible that this influenced them to develop abilities that aren't really useful against strong opponents alone because they're used to just beating people down with superior numbers + strength. The vast majority of Spider abilities aren't even advantage neutral. That is, Hisoka's ability is advantage neutral, as in it is still perfectly viable against an equally strong or even stronger opponent than him. I think its usage is overrated but it certainly isn't going to backfire on him. Can you imagine Phinx fighting someone as strong as him and say, "Hold on man, let me spin my arm 25 times to charge up this move"?
most of those abilities that have fatal failing are abilities that still in developement phase
or super abilities that need to have a weak point so the owner won't be an undefeated
or just the weakest ability in the nen users abilities
in other hand we have complete abilities like neteros hiakukshi
and it is shown that the spiders don't hang out in groups but when they have a job ...so they don't depend on each other most of the time ..and for their abilities they developed ones that fit their mentality ..personality ...and desire and they know that death is a risk in their life.and as bandits that have enemies everywhere they have to keep enhancing their skills all the time....the point is that they believe that they are the top .their will make their nen stronger and that's a factor that few nene users have.
Last edited by zzigg; March 05, 2013 at 09:09 AM.
It takes skill and visualization training to conjure something vs. just blocking with aura.Quote:
Nono, the guy was just giving an extreme example that actually means very little. All he's saying is that you can't create something that's scientifically impossible. But that's actually really wide because what's scientifically possible doesn't calibrate with what's technologically feasible or possible at the current level of technology in HxH. Novu created wormholes ffs. So why assume that Feitan's suit is crap? The truth is it's probably got excellent fire resistance that isn't otherwise attainable (for example).Quote:
The heat dissipation example also obviously misses the point. You don't know what the conversion ratio is between "pure nen" and fire. Furthermore, as a hatsu it might be even more efficient (for Feitan) than normal emission. And emission efficiency is unknown as well - how well does it travel through air?
I don't think she stood still. She saw Feitan with some cool armor and thought to herself: dafuq? But the Spiders recognize the suit and ran for it. Not surprising they got away clean since they were at a distance and also had a head start. What's apparent though is that the area of effect is really large (as alluded to by one of the Spiders who remarked he/she almost died once from trying to watch.)Quote:
From a narrative standpoint i mean the intention is that obviously the Spiders are supposed to be friggin strong. Yeah Togashi is bad and sometimes inconsistent with his treatment of aura but he's not always totally incorrect.
Obviously people in HXH can talk infinitely fast but Feitan's move has a huge delay that goes beyond the fact people were able to talk about it. You have several members of the Spider who are wounded already. Kalluto is supposed to be way out of his league compared to rest of the Spiders. Yet when Feitan prepared his move there's plenty of time for everyone to flail their hands and run away, including Kalluto. There's no way Zanza is going to be slower than the last guy who evacuated (most likely Kalluto). So if Kallauto can escape on time so can Zanza. Now Zanza might not feel the need to run away but that doesn't mean you just stand there and watch. You either attack first or you back off a bit more. You simply don't stand still and let the other guy finish his ability.
People are putting way too much faith in the magic sauce of aura. When Killua used his lightning against one of the bombers, he thought Killua was using a taser. The guy on the wheelchair in Celestial Arena had an electric whip that will stun anyone not resistant to electricity (there's absolutely no indication that electricity resistance is common). Yes in the case of the electric whip you've to carry the stuff with you, but Killua's lightning ability is basically a godlike ability. It might as well be one hit kill (one hit and any human type characters gets shocked and then he has all the time to kill you) and that can be done with an electric whip. The point is that not only can't you make things outside of scientifically possible, most of the time it's not even as good as just spending more money to buy whatever 'special material' you're looking for and the only advantage is that anything created by aura is easily portable while normal 'special material' stuff you got to carry it around with you always. But it's far more likely for an average guy to carry around an electric whip than somehow developing the ability to project lightning so the extra clumsiness is usually worth it.
Now of course there are exceptions like say Shizuku. By the way she can simply wear an oxygen mask and suck up all the oxygen in the air and that'd be guaranteed win against any opponent if she can last for even a minute or so as long as she's not fighting Morel (even Ants need oxygen and clearly their physical ability deteroriates rapidly without oxygen). Goreinu would be unstoppable if he just throw his gorilla off a cliff and then teleported the enemy into it, and if a cliff isn't availble you can simply use traps instead. There are a lot of abilities that are in no ways rigorous and you'll never see them applied in how I described because it'd be incredibly dumb even though based on what we know about them, those are perfectly valid applications.
In terms of abilities that's actually rigorous, Hisoka's ability is pretty good. I think it's way overrated but it's not something that'd get you instantly killed against a superior opponent. Its effectiveness is diminished but it still has a chance to catch them off guard. Some abilities, like Phinx's, is literally a death wish against a superior opponent. Now you can say some people didn't develop ability to fight strong people, but then what's the point to develop abilities to fight people weaker than you? Especially if you're talking about guys like Feitan and Phinx who clearly developed their abilities to kill people as opposed to say, blackmail in Gensuru's case, and yet it only works on people they can already kill!
i disagree with you ..you can use a teaser or whatever other object that emit electricity and have the same result even though we don't know how many volts killua can produce ..but despite being easier to'' carry ''with you''...'' electric aura'' can make you develop other abilities or other ways of using that source that you actually can't find as product you can buy''god speed '' '' Pain Packer ''Quote:
first for shizuku it's impossible for demi to suck all oxygen.. only if she was in a sealed room with the enemy ...and for her low combat ability in a confined space that's death for herQuote:
for Goreinu .. the two segnarios that you give are perfect for him to defeat someone but only if he happend to be in there ..and for his low combat abilities too.. i don't think he can do much with the two gorillas in face of a strong enemy
i think togashi think that far ahead for every ability... but for some he let those gaps in to use them in future .
if he just put the bungee gum in his opponent face he can suffocates him ...being the only one who can release it .. it's an easy kill......but hisoka won't do a cheap trick like this one ...togashi think that far ahead in his workQuote:
---------- Post added at 01:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 PM ----------
and Let's not forget that not only was Kite discovered and trained by Ging, one of the top 5 Nen users in the world, according to Biscuit, but he also managed to track Ging down. I shudder to imagine how strong Kite would have to be to even make his way into the place where Ging is hiding.
Kaito took on pito and ways caught off gaurd. What's more, Pito acknowledged him as a challenge, and a "test of his limits"
also What Pito said about his fight with Kaito (being "like a dream") needs to be taken into context.
Last edited by zzigg; March 08, 2013 at 04:41 PM.
Buying a flamethrower is clumsy but you don't need to take some serious damage before you can use your flamethrower.
A taser might not be the sneakiest of weapons but the vast majority of people in HXH has no chance of ever producing electricity.
Again people have this misconception that aura is supposed to produce 'magical stuff'. Grunt Ants can tank Jajaken (which is a strong offensive move) with solely their body without the aid of any aura. We also see the same grunts actually killed by regular guns wielded by untrained humans of NGL. The Hunters reprsent the strongest fighting force that isn't affiliated with the military, but if the goal is just to be better at killing people you might as well just join the military. Tsezguerra planned to fight Gensuru with the aids of the mercenary soldiers that was hired in the castle. Unless the point is that he completely overestimated the potency of these guys you're looking at something no stronger than a true army (they're still just mercenaries) but have military grade weapons + reasonable training. These mercenaries certainly do not appear to wield any heavy weaponry or vehicles but it was enough to make a guy who is extremely cautious feel confident about fighting Gensuru. And yet these mercenaries are just ordinary human beings using good weapons with training.
Kite is said roughly around Knuckles' level, and Knuckles is already near the top by the virtue of participating in a fight that is supposed to determine the fate of humanity. The Hunter's Association is supposed to be overwhelmingly strong. They ended up turning into some kind of joke where apparently they didn't even send half of their best guys but they did bring a nuclear bomb just in case for backup in a fight for the survival of humanity. I mean just look at why Ilumi applied to a license. He said he needed to get into some country due to a job and that's why he needed the clearance from the license. He's supposed to be stronger than Killua who was supposed to fight tanks and jets bare handed, and yet his decision was go apply a license as opposed to try to illegally sneak into a country. The power of few individuals, even guys like Spiders, pales compared to the power wielded by large organizations (Hunter's Association) let alone nations. And Kite is obviously pretty close to the top of the said organization in terms of fighting ability and by extenesion that means he's near the top of humanity as well.
nop....togashi stated in the data book that kaito is in the same level as Mauro in the hexagonQuote:
i see the threads empty ....the members are being lazy
the next time we will see kaito sama he will be a mature sexy red haired woman....so do you like that ? or it's a Togashi troll that embarrasses the hell out of this powerfull protagonists?
personally i'm not quite liking it yet ...i mean i wanna see her but in the same time.....so am confused
what about you guys
Last edited by zzigg; March 08, 2013 at 04:41 PM.