This "threat" the Uchiha represented only existed in Tobirama's mind because he was pessimist. He feared their power could eclipse his own, and he feared they could overtake the the Senju's role as the leaders of the village. He put the Senju and Uchiha clan's rivalry before the village and the country. The Uchiha posed no such threat until he started doing what he did. This is called a self fulling prophecy. He started it, Danzou finished it.
Yeah, Oonoki was weak and did fishy, Danzou-esque things like working with Akatsuki. Tobirama would never do that, so you're right- they aren't alike. And he isn't like A, who would throw a temper tantrum and emotionally lash out at summit between the most powerful people in the world.
What exactly did Tobirama do again that caused the end to peace, as you put it? And what could he have done differently?
My opinion is:
Hashirama did everything possible to make Madara trust him,but at the same time he had to be fair to everyone.
He offered Madara the hokage position, when that didn't work he offered him to be his right hand man. Basically saying he was second in charge. He told Madara he was like a brother and would handle tobirama.
Tobirama hated Uchiha and hearing rumors about how they gain there power. That couldn't be ingored by Hashirama, and he had to do what was best for the village.
Madara eventually lost hope and thought that in the end Hashirama would chose his real brother and clan over him, so he acted accordingly.
LMFAO "He feared they could overtake the Senju's role"? Where did you get that garbage from?
And no, Tobirama refused to see what was plainly in front of him. He saw the Uchiha's still as enemies when they were now comrades. He thought they held ill will towards a village that they help found which wasn't the case. Why would they rebel? The only reason they would rebel is if they became oppressed and spied on, which is exactly what Tobirama did and set in motion. Madara saw this future, and it eventually happened and his clan was wiped out. That only happened becasue of Tobirama's mistrust. Tell me, what exactly was Tobirama implying here? You say he did nothing, but it was quite evident he planned to do something.
Tobirama was a bigot who was stuck int he past, that much is obvious. His own brother saw this in him and scolded him for it and begged Madara that he would make him change.
And is what Madara saying so unreasonable? Is Hashirama's brother worth more than peace and the safety of the village? If Tobirama is as pragmatic as you say he is, he would have gladly laid down his life for peace. Madara's point is that Hashirama and Tobirama especially don't value peace as much as they think, they are unwilling to sacrifice their clan for peace, same as Madara. That is why he left, because he wanted to save his clan but they refused to be saved.
The peace Hashirama and Madara wanted could only be achieved without people like Tobirama. As long as people like him existed, then peace could not be achieved. He constantly looked to the darkness of the past instead of the brightness of the future.
And no one supported Madara, he says that much himself. Not a single one shared my sentiment.
The clan had given up on him and followed Hashirama to peace. They refused to believe the Senju could be plotting against them, when it was plainly obvious that Tobirama was.
He saw Madara as an enemy. He saw the Uchiha as potential threats. He dealt with both in totally different ways. Why are you acting like Tobirama = Danzou. Danzou was a twisted version of Tobirama, but you're acting like Tobirama is the one that was ordering a massacre to obtain eyeballs. Tobirama could have been suggesting anything in that panel; he was probably going to mention his plan to move them to the edge of the village and keep an eye on them. Which I really feel like I need to reinforce WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Please, suggest a different course of action that would not put the villagers at threat of making bonds with an Uchiha. They are a version of this concept cranked up x100. To the point where it's dangerous to have a village with them in it.Quote:
Hashirama was stuck in the past to. "Hush! You're speaking to a pure Uchiha child!" In fact, that was the biggest thing Sasuke took offense to. He only winced at what Tobirama said, because he knew it to be true.Quote:
You really think Madara would have abandoned his insanity just because Tobirama died? And you really think that's an acceptable solution, for Madara to force Hashirama to murder Tobirama? I wish I could see you try to make this argument in person so I could laugh in your face. I think I've had enough MH for the day lolQuote:
---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------
All of Tobirama's fears are unfounded. He believes that these people who swore an oath to Hashirama and shunned their leader would simply one day out of the blue betray the village and peace they fought so hard to attain?
Please, show me the evidence why that would be the case. There is none, the only reason Tobirama believed so is because he hated the Uchiha's and thought them all to be like Madara.
And even still, why would you fear your allies getting more powerful? Why would you feel the need to limit your allies power? They were united at this point, all following Hashirama and all wanting peace and yet Tobirama still did not trust them.
My question to you is why did he not trust them? What legitimate reason did he have that they would try something? Go ahead and find me one, I dare you.
And if Madara was being pessimistic what exactly was Tobirama being? All he kept thinking was all the bad the Uchiha's were capable of despite all the good they had done. Instead of seeing how they could help the village, he simply saw how they could hurt it. Don't be biased now.
---------- Post added at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------
The Uchiha's shunned Madara because they refused to believe in what he thought, that they would one day be persecuted and destroyed. Well guess what, Madara was right and they were wrong. They only started to believe in him decades after he was gone and by then it was too late.
When you get down to it, what did Tobirama REALLY do?
He VERBALLY expressed his distrust of the Uchiha which, unfortunately, was grounded in the fact that his family had been killing and killied by Uchiha.
Luckily, Harishima had a hold on things and outright told Tobirama that he would not tolerate any harm coming to the Uchiha -- ESPECIALLY Madara. This seriousness and tone in his voice was obviously enough to reduce Tobirama's actions to mere talk.
Madara didn't have to go off the way he did. It's just that simple. If he truly wanted PEACE, like everyone seems to claim, he would have stuck it out and came to the table to resolve these issues. In the end, as I've said countless times in my earlier posts, Madara's actions unwittingly validated Tobirama's prejudice.
After Madara snapped, I bet people were like:
"Oh wow, Tobirama was right. I thought we had gotten passed this.."
"Dang, maybe all Uchiha are crazy"
If he would have stayed with peace and continued to try and convince the Senju that he was not to be feared, this would be an entirely different story.
For the longest time the people of Konoha feared Naruto and treated him like a monster.
All of the other ninja used to laugh and call him names, they never let poor Naruto join in any of shinobi games. [/humor]
He could have said fuck it and became the demon they all thought him to be. However, what did he do? He stuck it out like a true hero and now the people of Konoha praise him as such.
If Madara was so weak willed that he could let the words of ONE naysayer dissuade him from committing to the peace and Harishima both dreamed of then I'd argue that he never had it in him to create the utopia he envisioned in his childhood.
Madara only went back to being unreasonable and crazy because of Tobirama, because despite Hashriama's words, Tobirama wasn't going to change, that much was evident even in death.
The fact that Tobirama was in line for the 2nd Hokage position sealed the Uchiha's fate because of his inability to change and see the good in them. He created a self fulling filling prophecy by doing what he did and treating the Uchiha's in the way he did. Even after Madara's betrayal, the Uchiha's were fine. It was only after Tobirama started mucking things up because he distrusted them that things went haywire.
What is the next step ? That Tobirama implanted a genjutsu on Hashirama's carved face to mindcontrol the villagers against Madara ? Maybe that's how Madara got the Moon Eye plan idea. >.>
Madara has his share of responsability. He wasn't able to trust for so long, how can he expect everyone would with him as soon as he changed his mind ? Do you think Madara would have killed his brother if we asked him to in order to gain our trust ?
It wouldn't have been sure that Hashirama's seat would be granted to his brother if people's trust in Madara wasn't that deficit in the first place.
Last edited by Gats; March 28, 2013 at 12:27 PM.